36 Comments
  • Paul
    Posted at 22:50h, 27 July

    Hi Joel!

    Awesome episode! So great to hear Nelson again, his new book sounds profound!
    When I last messaged you I forgot to mention some authors included in my “Theology bookshelf” Nelson Walters being one, as well as precious guys like Stuart Greaves, author of FALSE JUSTICE and Dr Mike Brown author of OUR HANDS ARE STAINED WITH BLOOD….also deeply appreciate David Pawson (cos I’m English!) Tim Keller, and Messianic author Steve Maltz who has a great blend of a sense of humour, but also getting over a serious Doctrinal point!
    Was so humbled by YOUR humility when you said in your reply to me you are praying to be counted worthy to be among such authors! Believe me Joel, you are! You are one of my favourite authors, if not, THE favourite! I so appreciate when you say that in the realm of Bible Prophecy the one thing we really need is HUMILITY.
    I believe Nelson Walters has this too…so good to hear the sensitive way he has written his new book; man, rewriting the 1st chaper 60 plus times!! I loved his ARE WE READY FOR JESUS book and received his epic REVELATION DECIPHERED book last Christmas, which I feel I need to work through with a fine tooth comb such is it’s stunning detail…I found I had to do this with Dalton’s book: THE CONTROVERSY OF ZION AND TIME OF JACOB’S TROUBLE…

    Just wondered Joel…have you read Reggie Kelly’s article on his website: PRE-WRATH VS POST-TRIB…Reggie favours Post Trib I think because he believes that Pre Wrath means an extension of The Day of the Lord, he also questions the removal of the Church just as the Jews suffer under the fury of Antichrist…
    .(although in true Reggie humility he respects bretheren who differ)
    Also….something I have struggled to answer.
    In previous chats with Reggie on the Underground you talk about the Gospel going forth in the Millennium with Jewish people being instrumental in this (correct if I am wrong about this!)..
    But my understanding from scripture is that once Jesus is ruling and reigning from Jerusalem, why does this Gospel need to go forth; surely it is THE LAW that goes forth from Zion, (as Isaiah indicates) not the Gospel…this also makes sense of the Great Commission in Matt ch28 where the Lord says: “go therefore and make disciples of all Nations baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you…AND THEN THE END WILL COME….ie end of the age
    Why would the Gospel go on being preached in a restored Creation?
    I might have this totally wrong and I aim to imitate you, Nelson and Reggie in humility on these things…

    Many blessings in Yeshua to you and your family, dear Joel!

    Paul

  • Robert S
    Posted at 23:50h, 27 July

    This seems like a really interesting book where the author has spent some serious study time to have answers to a doctrine that has become divisive among Christians. I used to believe only in the pre-trib rapture, even being dogmatic about it. Today I lean more toward a pre-wrath rapture. This change has happened gradually through a combination of my own personal bible study and seeing the persecution of Christians in the Middle East. However, I am open to the possibility that this may be wrong. We should be looking for Jesus coming, not the Antichrist and his system being set up. I have come to a place in my journey where if the rapture happens before world wide persecution breaks out, then great, I want that and am ready. But if the church globally must face the Antichrist, then I want my family, church, and my own heart to be prepared to have our freedoms and earthly possessions taken and possibly our lives as well. Which, as disciples of Jesus is really how we should be living anyways.

    Joel, I do have a question. Your guest seems to presuppose that the coming Antichrist persecution of the church will be global in scale. No one will be exempt. And I know that is the language in Revelation 13 and Daniel 7 and maybe other passages. However other passages in the bible like the enforced worship of Nebuchadnezzar’s statue in Daniel 3 and Caesar’s tax in Luke 2 also uses language that seem global in scale but as we know, it is not global, but rather confined to the boundaries of the Babylonian/Roman empire. Could it be that that is also what John sees in Revelation? The Antichrist’s persecution happening under a 10 nation Islamic caliphate that doesn’t extend much further than all the Middle East? After all, we know that Daniel 11:44 talks about news from the East and the North troubling him (possibly the Antichrist), and that he goes to war against other nations. I mean, a global Antichrist that is able to control America, Russia, and China, as well as everyone else? Just seems way too far fetched to me, though I know geopolitics could change real fast.in today’s world to accommodate that. But wow the event(s) that would lead to such a scenario are frightening to say the least.

    I am asking these questions, because lately I have been really thinking that some of the beginning seals in Revelation 6 have already been opened and that things are happening right now before our eyes, but much of the western church doesn’t have the eyes and ears to perceive it. Wasn’t that the case with Jesus 1st coming? He was here and hardly anyone, even His own Jewish people even recognized Him as their messiah? Similarly, the rider on the white horse (1st seal) could be riding right now but none are perceiving until he places the sacrilegious object in a rebuilt temple. But by then, it could be too late for the lukewarm or foolish virgins who are not prepared.

  • David Williams
    Posted at 06:11h, 28 July

    Thanks Joel for once again having the Courage to talk about this Controversial but Important issue. May many be Blessed and encouraged by watching this short Video and most importantly may we all get into Scripture and dive deeper into what Jesus, Paul and many others in Scripture say about the Return of Jesus Christ the Resurrection and Rapture.
    Jesus is going to return and we will Reign with Him on earth for 1000 Years before the Final Resurrection and Judgement.
    Thanks Joel

  • Brandon E.
    Posted at 13:47h, 28 July

    Enjoyed the conversation. May the Lord bless this effort. Nelson mentioned that Jesus doesn’t specifically mention the trumpet/bowl judgments and so therefore they won’t occur before the cosmic events and the resurrection/rapture of Mat 24:29-31. But I’m not so sure we can force this conclusion. Why? Jesus was speaking to His followers and the things they must endure and experience. And thankfully, believers won’t endure these trumpet/bowl judgments! As with the Egyptians, the trumpets/bowls will be specifically targeted toward Antichrist and his followers. Non-followers of Antichrist will be IMMUNE to the Revelation plague judgments just as the Israelite’s experienced immunity with the Egyptian plagues. We need to be more cautious with a claim like this—we can’t force this significant conclusion based on Jesus’ silence in not talking about rivers turning to blood, blasphemers not repenting for their ungodliness, etc. when in fact Jesus DOES mention the great sound of a trumpet (Mat 24:31) and I Cor 15 says it is the “last” trumpet.
    After further time, dialogue, and study on these matters, I hope that we can propose a marriage between the pre-wrath camp and a “non-classic” post tribulation view! I think we can get there in time. We agree on many points, including the fact that the saints, prophets, and all believers will be resurrected/raptured and enjoy some time in heaven before descending back to earth with Christ.
    Based on my study, I think the key to understanding the rapture is: #1) becoming a good student of the resurrection, and #2) becoming a good student of the “great day of God’s wrath.” The cosmic events of Rev 6:14-17 bring forth this great “day of God.” Connecting the great “day of God” (2 Pet 3:12, Rev 16:14, 2 Thes 1:7-10, et al) with the day of the Lord in the Old Testament is critical. This “day of wrath” is depicted by fierceness, fury, wrath, vengeance, fire, brimstone, and indignation of the Lord. It is the wine cup of the fierce wrath of God, the violently passionate orgē (G3709) wrath seen in Rev 6:16-17, Rev 11:18, Rev 14:10, Rev 16:19 and Rev 19:15. Believers are not appointed to this wrath (Rom 2:5, I Thes 1:10, I Thes 5:9).
    Also, in my opinion, intimately studying the cosmic events of the 6th seal along with a detailed study and comparison of the 7th seal (Rev 8:1-5), the 7th trumpet (Rev 11:15-19), the 7th thunder (Rev 10:7) and the 7th vial (Rev 16:17:21) is helpful and paramount. Note that the thief-like coming of Jesus is still being declared in Rev 16:15. We need to allow for the possibility that the seven thunders are simply a voice of warning and the seven trumpets are simply heralds of warning that precede each of the bowl plagues, and thus they are interlocked with one another. From a different vantage point, John very likely describes the bowl plague after he hears the trumpet blast. The Scripture never tells us that the trumpets have actual plagues inside whereas we assuredly know that the bowls are filled with plagues (Rev 15:8). A thunderous voice of warning and a herald blast of warning preceding each bowl plague seems consistent with the heart of God. Up until the end, God is crying out for people to repent (Rev 14:6-7, 2 Pet 3:9).
    We need to study each vision/topic/subject and use Scripture comparison as opposed to assuming that the book of Revelation is purely chronological.

  • GEORGE KOSINSKI
    Posted at 09:22h, 29 July

    Will the Church Face the Antichrist? Yes, of course – just read your Scriptures – you have everything you need contained therein and the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth. Books and commentaries are full of contradictory theories – endless speculation and merchandise. “”I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.” Matthew 11:25

  • Jan
    Posted at 14:00h, 29 July

    1. Pre-wrath rapture seems to me to be the right one.
    2. I believe that THERE WILL BE GREAT GOD´S VISITATION (OUTPOURING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT) TO THIS EARTH. I do not know when, but I sense it in the spirit. Something is happening. Praying about it…

  • David Williams
    Posted at 19:20h, 29 July

    Hello Joel,
    Not sure whether to ask you this question or Nelson? it is clear from Revelations 20 when the First resurrection takes place and when the New Age begins, Both Jesus and Paul talk of a Resurrection of the Just/Life and Pauls desire was to be in that Resurrection of the Just. Jesus also made it very clear that He will raise us up at the last Day. Jesus also made it clear that the Resurrection takes place at the end of this age of mortality and the New Age will be when we are called the Children of Resurrection/Children of God. Paul makes it clear that the resurrection of the Just is a singular event where all in Christ are changed in the Twinkling of an eye. Paul and Jesus makes it clear that all of the Saints and Angels descend from Heaven when the resurrection takes place on earth. Paul makes it clear that the resurrection happens first and then we are all together raptured to meet Jesus in the Air.
    My First Question is Nelson stated in the video that he believed that the Souls under the Altar in Revelations 6 have been given Resurrected Bodies, if that is the case then the resurrection has taken place, how does this tie in with revelations 20 when Jesus clearly tells us that that is when the first resurrection takes place when Jesus descends to earth to reign?
    My second question regarding what Nelson said is that if the Souls under the Altar have received their Resurrected Bodies why are there still on earth there Fellow servants and Brethren that are still to be Killed? That is like half of the Church is in Heaven and the other half is on earth still in mortal bodies, Doesnt the resurrection of those in Christ happen at one single time in History when Jesus descends after the Signs are seen in Heaven?
    Also for those that dont attend the Conference with Nelson will you have some videos on your site?
    Thanking You Brother in Christ

  • Steven Vance
    Posted at 22:36h, 29 July

    Jcel,
    Looking forward to hearing you at Understanding the Times. I live about 45 minutes away. I am sure your schedule will be full there, but I hope to chat briefly with you there. I have lots of questions! Thanks for the honest talk with Nelson. I look forward to getting his book and meeting both of you!

  • Jeanne T.
    Posted at 08:33h, 31 July

    Paul,

    I read the same article by Reggie. I would also be interested to hear Joel’s response to that. I have met Reggie, having attended the 2014 convocation in Ohio; Reggie is very humble and gracious.

  • Joel
    Posted at 18:10h, 31 July

    I love Reggie dearly. The timing of the rapture and some of the technical matters regarding the differences between post-trib and pre-wrath are so fine that in my opinion, they are not worth wrestling over. I agree that Pre-wrath correctly identifies the return of Jesus as a complex event. I believe Reggie would agree with this as well.

  • Katelyn Sawatzky
    Posted at 18:26h, 31 July

    Joel, would you mind possibly responding to my comment, or making a video explaining all the different doctrines? I am post-trib rapture for many reasons, but most importantly because Jesus says:
    Matthew: 29-30 “Immediately after the anguish of those days,
    the sun will be darkened,
    the moon will give no light,
    the stars will fall from the sky,
    and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.[a]
    30 And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Anyways, what is Pre Wrath?? I have never heard this before. I know Pre-Trib Rapture and Post-Trib Rapture.

    Thanks Joel! 🙂

    Katelyn

  • Paul
    Posted at 23:17h, 31 July

    I agree Joel! Post-trib and Pre-wrath are so similar that it is not worth “wrestling over”
    The more contentious issue is that of Pre-trib vs the other two…
    On that note Joel, I want to thank you for your contribution to Joe Schimmel’s excellent dvd: “LEFT BEHIND OR LED ASTRAY” which exposes the pre-trib doctrine…

    There are things regarding J,N Darby, Schofield and Edward Irving I had no idea over! It is truely a powerful exposé (whether one agrees with it or not- although I fully agree!)
    The fact that the Bretheren movement were split over this “new wine” with notable scholars like Tregelles, Newton and Muller all falling out with Darby over this…not to mention the “Prince of Preachers” Charles Spurgeon, is indicative to me that it went against the clear reading of scripture!

    Jeanne: would love to have the honour of meeting Reggie Kelly one day this side of Glory; he seems such a lovely guy!
    I so appreciate Joel having him on the UNDERGROUND!

    Blessings!

    Paul

  • Joel
    Posted at 04:32h, 01 August

    I mean it is worth wrestling through the issue, but not fighting with one another over.

  • Jeanne T.
    Posted at 07:08h, 01 August

    Paul,

    I do hope you can meet Reggie one day. I can tell you that when I met him and the other long-time participants, I really felt the presence of the Holy Spirit among them. These are dear brothers. You probably know that their convocation is coming up in Madison, Ohio – August 24th-27th. I’m sure there is still time to contact Reggie to register. You will not regret it. They will be going through Hosea this year, so I am currently reading through that book to prepare (I will not be able to attend). I think it will be live-streamed as well (it was last year). The also have an online discussion on Saturday evenings that is live-streamed on YouTube.

    Jeanne

  • Paul
    Posted at 08:23h, 01 August

    Amen Joel! It’s worth wrestling through the viewpoint(s) but not fighting each other over them; too much vicious pot shots in the world; the Church is called to a higher calling in regard to attitudes! Epistle of James I always find helps me on this!

    My personal view, is to be like the Apostle Paul, reason my case, and pray for a spirit of Revelation on the matter!
    There are lovely believers in Pre, Post and Pre-wrath (and mid, I would imagine)…it’s aiming to have that Christ like attitude of Grace AND Truth!
    I aim to remain
    gracious whilst reasoning my viewpoint with all my heart!
    Thanks for the book recommendation…Kurschner is good on this!
    And I believe Nelson’a book: REVELATION DECHIPHERED is just epic on the subject!

    Blessings Joel!

    Paul

  • Paul
    Posted at 11:14h, 01 August

    Hi Leanne!

    Thank you so much for the info, but alas I’m English and live in Wiltshire, South West England! UNITED KINGDOM
    I pray one day I’ll meet Reggie!
    I met Joel in Scotland last September, a real honour!

    Hope to see you again Joel…maybe ONEKING 2018- 70th anniversary of the State of Israel!
    Love your ministry and that of Dalton’s FAI…
    I am a supporter of both!

    Bless you guys, and Leanne!

    Paul

  • Daniel Dudley
    Posted at 08:21h, 02 August

    Since many in this discussion referred to Reggie Kelley, I just took a quick look at his web page and here is what he had to say about prewrath and post trib. (He is post trib as am I. )
    quoting Reggie:
    “Pre-Wrath vs Post-Trib
    I was recently talking with someone about the Pre-Wrath view. The way I understand it, it seems so close to Post-trib with maybe a few minor distinctions. And it’s all up to the interpreter as well, but what scriptures can we use to defend Post-trib, or does it even matter that much?
    I think it matters, not just for the practicalities of the dangers that may surface if the truth is not clear when the time arrives, but even more for the harmony of scripture to the greater glory of God.
    There are so many in and outs of the pre-wrath position. On the one hand, they surrender the principal pillar of pre-tribulationism, namely, the doctrine of imminence, while retaining the really ridiculous pre-trib concept that for the church to be exempted from divine wrath, she must be removed from the earth. Tell that to the Jews who aren’t even saved till Jesus’ return to destroy the AC and establish His millennial rule, not to mention those of the nations that are not translated with the church but remain and are engaged in helping the scattered Jews back to their Land after the tribulation (Isa 14:2; 49:22; 60:9, 14; 61:5; 66:20; Zech 8:23)
    To support a pre-wrath removal of the body, there are many things that must be done with the timing of the day of the Lord that cannot be exegetically justified, with a number of things that just don’t add up.
    For example, how obnoxious the notion that Jesus has returned, lifted out the church while the Jews continue to suffer under the fury of a still kicking Antichrist?
    No, when Jesus shows up, everyone sees Him and it’s over in an instant. Scripture says “one day”. In one day, an instant, the AC is toast (Isa 9:14; 10:17; 11:4; 2Thes 2:8; Rev 19:15, 19-21 with Dan 7:11); the church is translated (Mt 24:31 with 2Thes 2:1, 1Cor 15:51-52),as Israel is delivered and transformed at the believing sight of Him whom they pierced (Isa 59:16-21; 63:3-7; Eze 39:22; Dan 12:1; Zech 3:9; 12:10; Mt 23:39; 24:29-30; Acts 3:21; Ro 11:26-27; Rev 1:7). The harlot is judged. The mystery of God is finished, as the veil cast over all nations is destroyed (Isa 25:7 with Rev 10:7) and Satan is bound. The righteous are raised at the “last day” (Job 19:25-26; Isa 25:7 -9; 26:19; Dan 12:2, 13; Jn 6:39-40; 44, 54; 11:24: 12:48). The marriage feast begins ‘in this mountain’ (Isa 25:5-8), and so on we could go.
    The same sound of the trumpet that gathers the bride (Mat 24:29-31; 2Thes 2:1) also sets in motion the long return home by land of the newly repentant Jewish survivors of the tribulation (Isa 27:12-13). Clearly, the surviving remnant of Israel is NOT translated with the body. Why? It is because they are only now receiving repentance and the Spirit, as Jesus is revealed, not only visibly in the clouds, but in their hearts as the transforming gift of revelation and repentance is happening at once, in one day (Isa 59:18-21; 66:8; Eze 39:22; Zech 3:9, 12:10 with Mt 24:39; 24:30; Acts 3:21; Ro 11:26; Rev 1:7)
    It all lines up with the same comprehensive and inclusive transformative event. The end of this age and the break of day happens instantly, as every eye sees Him and we may be sure, no AC survives that brightness, not even for a moment, let alone a number of days.
    The day of the Lord that comes as a thief is also the Day of God Almighty” (compare 2Pet 3:10, 12 with Rev 16:15-17; also see Eze 39:8). Peter shows that that day does not come until AFTER the darkness that is “immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days (Mt 24:29 with Acts 2:20).
    Very significantly in Rev 16:15, Jesus announces His now truly ‘imminent’ coming. That announcement / warning comes AFTER the 6th bowl and just BEFORE the 7th bowl and final outpouring of wrath and destruction of mystery Babylon at the Great Day of God Almighty. This is the same day of the Lord that comes as a thief in 2Pet 3:10, 12.
    Jacob’s trouble may be the exception of speaking of “that day” (Jer 30:7; Joel 2:2-3; 1Thes 5:3) as the Day of the LORD, which would give the impression that the day is the last half of Daniel’s week, but it was the occasional habit of the prophets to speak of the Day of the LORD as inclusive of the events that lead most immediately up to the climax of that great day.
    This was a kind of ‘short-hand’ way of referring to the great transition between this age and the kingdom come on earth, but to speak in these very few instances of an inclusive, transitional period does not cancel out what the far greater number scriptures pin point much more precisely as the very climax of the tribulation, as Jesus’, Peter’s, and John’s above cited references make clear. For them, and for all believing Jews of that time, the Day of the LORD was ‘one day’ Zach 3:9; 14:7), known only to the Lord, i.e., ‘the last day’.
    There’s no denying that the Day of the LORD that comes as a thief is the same as the Day of God Almighty that also comes as a thief (compare Mt 24:43; 2Pet 3:10, 12; Rev 16:15-17). Clearly, it comes AFTER the 6th bowl (Rev 16:15), which is obviously very late in the tribulation. Even more precisely, it comes AFTER the darkness that is AFTER the tribulation (Mt 24:29 with Acts 2:20).
    That’s only some of my reasons, and I don’t push it to the unnecessary distraction of brethren who differ, but I do think it matters, particularly when the primary defense of the pre-trib error depends entirely on an extended Day of the LORD. Also, it may prove to matter even more when the saints may be unnecessarily distracted at a time when endurance to go the distance may be extremely difficult. So there is some of my thinking on the question.
    Yours in the Beloved, Reggie

    Soon I will suggest 11 problems with the pre wrath rapture of believers. The first problem is that “this Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:11) He did not hover in the clouds for several years on his way back to heaven and so cannot be said to hover there on the way back down.

    I do agree since so many have not heard the post trib rapture explained and so cannot compare it with other views, that this discussion is not a topic for division among brethren. It is a great reason for us to study the scriptures for ourselves.

  • Taryn
    Posted at 08:44h, 02 August

    Bry and I are coming to see you tonight! We had a bunch of music students to teach, but a ton of them randomly canceled due to summer family stuff. So we canceled the last two and decided we’ll come.

  • Daniel Dudley
    Posted at 13:40h, 02 August

    Here are the other 10 problems is see with the pre wrath rapture of believers.

    1. Although the prewrath position answers many questions that the pre trib view does not, it still suffers the burden of explaining a few dubious duplications that the posttrib rapture unifies as one event.
    Unnecessary duplication of events:
    a. The Prewrath position seems to have three times believers are resurrected. The first resurrection occurs after the 6th seal at the prewrath rapture, then there should be one at the last (7th) trumpet according to 1Cor. 15.52, Rev 11.15, and then a resurrection after the 70th week of Daniel is over, Dan. 12:1-2, Rev. 20:4-5 and this final resurrection is called the “first resurrection”!?
    Since the posttrib position sees the seals, trumpets and bowls as overlapping (not parallel) and all ending together at the 7th seal, trumpet and bowl, all these resurrections happen after the end of the 70th week of Daniel-just one resurrection at the 7th trumpet.
    b. The Prewrath position has two times Christ’s advent is illustrated as being like the coming of a thief. At the prewrath rapture (somewhere after the middle of the tribulation), 1Thes 5.2, and again in Rev 16.15 where it is clear that Christ has not come yet like a thief at the time of the 6th bowl of wrath. They will say that this is a parenthesis in the 6th bowl (as pretribs do), and that the time period spoken of refers back to the prewrath rapture, but there is no evidence for this in the context of the 6th bowl. In fact the parenthesis is in the midst of the 6th bowl and continues with the discussion of the events of the 6th bowl. Other parentheses in Revelation happen between the 6th and 7th trumpet or seal but not in the middle of the events of the seal or bowl. It just doesn’t fit their narrative (as with the pretrib position).

    2. Regarding the second half of Daniel’s 70th week:
    a. Are the number of days the antichrist is given authority to act cut short? Van Kampen in THE SIGN page 337 says the antichrist is “rendered useless” at the beginning of the Day of the Lord. But the Lord had given him 42 months to act, Rev 13:5. This prophecy (made in approximately 95 A. D., ruffly 65 years after the statement from Jesus that the days will be cut short) does not indicate that the antichrist will be unable to overcome saints during the 42 months the Bible says he will overcome them. The days are cut off (not allowed to go on forever) or no flesh would be saved, but they do last the prophecies 1260 days.

    b. The two witnesses will prophesy for “1260 days”, Rev. 11:3.

    c. The outer court been given to the nations to tread under foot for 42 months, Rev 11.2? Was this 42 month period cut short, Matt. 24:22 ?
    d. It is not reasonable that two individuals, (Jesus and the antichrist) diametrically opposed to each other, are both worshiped and exercise authority at the same time. The antichrist would be receiving worship and would be exercising his authority freely during the day of the Lord. But Isaiah 2:11 says “the Lord alone will be exalted in that day”. The last part of Daniel’s 70th week (which prewrathers see as the day of the Lord) appears to be a continuation of the day of the antichrist which started in the middle of the 70th week since he is exercising his God given authority to overcome saints, etc. If it is the day of the Lord, God would be exercising His authority, not refraining from exercising His authority and permitting the antichrist to exercise his.
    If prewrath claimed that the above 3 1/2 years occurred during the first half of Daniel’s 70th week, they would avoid these problems. But claiming that these periods of time occur in the second half of Daniel’s 70th week causes the prewrath position a problem explaining the fact that God promises the antichrist authority for 42 months and then decides that, “for the sake of the elect those days must be shortened” and reduces the number of days granted for certain things to occur. Prewrath teaches that God severely restricts or “renders useless” (THE SIGN page 337) the antichrist thus revoking the authority He had just granted.
    Another explanation is needed for “cut short”, Matt 24.22 .
    Checking the Greek:
    2856 koloboo {kol-ob-o’-o}
    from a derivative of the base of 2849; TDNT – 3:823,452; v
    AV – shorten 4; 4
    1) to mutilate
    2) in NT: to shorten, abridge, curtail
    The first definition is to mutilate (ie to cut off). So if those days had been allowed to go on indefinitely no flesh would survive but they will be cut off, not permitted to go on indefinitely. But they will go on as long as God had said they would.
    3. Why in the middle of the 6th bowl of wrath does God say, “I am coming like a thief”?
    Rev 16.15 According to the prewrath view He already had come like a thief to start the day of the Lord and to rescue all believers from His wrath? (I don’t believe Rev. 16:15 is a parenthesis in the middle of the events of the 6th bowl that jumps back to the church before the 7th seal rapture. I do believe the rapture is at the 7th seal but that the 7th seal is after the 6th bowl.) For evidence that 7 is the Biblical number of completion see Gen 1. For evidence that the 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl all are simultaneous note the flashes of lightening, and sounds and peals of thunder, and the great earthquake that follows each of the seven seals, trumpets and bowls; 7th seal Rev 8.1-5 7 th trumpet; 1Cor 15.52 Rev 10.7 , 11.15-19 7 th bowl Rev 16.17-18 These repeated series of events remind me of the sun being darkened, the moon being darkened or turned to blood, the stars falling from the sky, and the powers of heaven being shaken in the 6th seal after the tribulation. The repetition of both of these series of events indicates that the same point in time has been reached.
    4. If NO ONE is saved after the prewrath rapture, why does the 6th bowl imply that there are those on earth who are blessed, staying awake and keeping their garments, Rev 16.15 ? And why do the bowls specifically target the wicked; Rev 16.2 “those who had the mark of the beast”, Rev 16.6 “those who poured out the blood of saints”, Rev. 16.9 “they blasphemed God” thus implying that those who do not have the mark of the beast or those who did not pour out the blood of saints will not be affected?
    On the other hand, If SOME ARE saved after the prewrath rapture, will they suffer the wrath of God or be protected from it? If they suffer it, prewrath must explain why John 3.36 doesn’t apply to them? If they don’t suffer it but are protected by God on earth as He protected Noah and Lot, then the need for a prewrath rapture has vanished because God is protecting His own on earth through the time of the outpouring of His wrath anyway. He might as well protect the entire church. Those saved after a prewrath rapture of believers still have the same promises of deliverance from the wrath of God that the church does. Or does the prewrath position believe as pretribs, that those saved after the rapture are not part of the church but part of Israel, or some hybrid group and are required to suffer God’s wrath because they did not believe until after the rapture?
    5. The 5th seal Rev 6.10-11 tells us that God will REFRAIN from JUDGING and avenging the blood of saints until the LAST martyr is killed. This may be the killing of the two witnesses at the end of the antichrist’s authority to kill saints, but could be any other martyr. In either case, this verse implies that God’s judging, the essence of the day of the Lord, 2Pet 3.7-10 will be WITHHELD until the end of both: 1. the authority of the antichrist to act and kill saints, and 2. the time the two witnesses have to witness is over. Thus God’s judgment will not come until after the 70th week of Daniel is over, and the antichrist’s authority is over, and the time given to the two witnesses to witness has been used up.
    6. From Heb. 11.40 we learn that OT saints could not be made perfect without us. The posttrib rapture position indicates that both OT saints and we the church are made perfect at the same time-at the posttrib rapture. The prewrath position has OT saints WAITING to be resurrected until the first day of the Millennium (THE SIGN, pg. 297). If they could not be made perfect without us, how can we be made perfect without them? It seems consistent with the revealed character of God that we should not be made perfect without them if they cannot be made perfect without us.
    7. Rom 8.18-23 describes creation anxiously longing for the revealing of the sons of God (the rapture). Why? Because (v 21) creation will be set free from its slavery to corruption when the sons of God are revealed. But according to prewrath, after the revealing of the sons of God (the prewrath rapture), creation is not relieved, but instead, hail, fire and blood are thrown to earth, a third of the earth is burnt up, a third of the trees are burnt and all the green grass is burnt up, all in the 1st trumpet, it does not get any better for creation as we get into the 2nd trumpet or the rest of the bowls. I think you get the point. Creation would not be eagerly awaiting the revelation of the sons of God if, just after that revelation, creation is subject to the seven trumpets and seven bowls. It would eagerly await the return of Christ. But according to posttrib, it would eagerly wait for the revelation of the sons of God because that is when Christ returns to set up His kingdom. Prewrath (as well as pretribs) would have to explain why creation is said to be relieved at a time when creation will experience the worst plagues ever. Posttrib offers a better explanation; that at the revelation of the sons of God, the earth will also be relieved from the plagues of Revelation and God will “destroy those who destroy the earth.” Rev 11.18
    8. According to Isa. 2.11 , 17 “the Lord alone will be exalted in that day” (from the context- the day of the Lord). Rev. 13:4-8 tells us that the antichrist will be worshiped by “all who dwell on the earth” for 42 month (the second half of the tribulation) which prewrathers have at least in part as the day of the Lord. So the prewrath position has the antichrist being worshiped during a time frame that the Lord ALONE will be exalted. God won’t share any part of His day with the antichrist, so the day of the Lord cannot start until the 70th week of Daniel is over.
    9. If the Day of the Lord starts just after the 6th seal and the seals, trumpets and bowls are consecutive, then why are there opportunities given to repent as late as the 5th bowl, since the Day of the Lord is being delayed until all who will repent do repent?
    2 Peter 3:9-10 “The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.” This tells me that the Day of the Lord is being held back until all who will repent have repented. But legitimate opportunities for repentance are available but rejected even as late as the 4th bowl, Rev. 16:8 , and 5 th bowl, Rev. 16:11 . So the day of the Lord will not begin until after at least the 5th bowl (which is consistent with the promise in the 6th bowl, Rev. 16:15 that He is coming like a thief, also given in 2 Peter 3:10 ).
    10. In Acts 3:21 the Word says that Jesus will remain in heaven until the final restoration of all things. The restoration of all things on earth only occurs when Christ returns to earth. Heaven will hold Him until then.

    I encourage all to become Bereans and study this out for themselves.

    In Him,

    Dan

  • David Williams
    Posted at 20:06h, 09 August

    Hello Daniel Dudley,

    I am very interested in what you are presenting.

    Do you have any Free Audios available or Free Studys etc

  • Aaron Johnson
    Posted at 21:30h, 09 August

    I don’t believe I heard anyone discuss what we should do when the antichrist comes.?

  • Nelson Walters
    Posted at 09:02h, 10 August

    Joel, I agree with you wholeheartedly that the issue of whether the church will face Antichrist is not one to divide over. In fact, in John 17:21, Jesus prayed to the Father that someday the unity of believers will EQUAL the unity of the Father and Son AND that that unity will cause the world to believe that God sent Jesus into the world. This unity will include this question. It is in the spirit of that prayer for coming unity that I wrote this book; as a step in the process. This is too important an issue to not do the hard work of dying to self and laying down our own preconceived ideas. It is only then that the mind of Christ can teach us. This includes me as well as all your readers. God’s Word is quite specific about this issue, and together we can solve this “case” if we approach it with an attitude of truth seekers.

    Do I have all the answers or do you? Heaven forbid! No mortal does. However, hopefully this book will be a catalyst to launch us toward relative certainty and the unity Jesus prayed for. It is then that as a Body we can begin the pastoral work of getting “Ready” for Jesus.

    BTW, the book answers most if not all the questions listed in previous posts. But after reading the book, if readers wish to engage on this topic on my website, I invite them to do so there. Iron does sharpen iron.

  • Rob Nelson
    Posted at 19:20h, 10 August

    Short answer? Of course.

  • Gary Casebier
    Posted at 22:47h, 10 August

    Joel, I really appreciated your testimony on How will they hear. I was cracking up at the beginning of it. Never saw this side of you and I was a teen in the eighties as well. Great testimony. I know a Messianic minister in the DFW that had you had his church recently and love to meet you sometime. From what know your college roommate is also at a church nearby as well.

  • Joseph Horta
    Posted at 17:36h, 11 August

    So Joel, Not sure why you didn’t include the longest of my 3 posts but I am puzzled as to why you haven’t questioned some of what Mr. Walters says even in this short program? In Revelation 6 Jesus’s face appears to all people? Is that what the Scripture teaches there? I would answer with a resounding no. It says nothing of the sort. They know God sees them no matter where they hide based on the great earthquake they are suffering through. Hide us from God’s face from finding us and destroying us, It’s not that they literally see him, which in and of itself raises issues contrary to Scripture, it is that the Lord sees them and is unrelenting in his judgments.

  • David Williams
    Posted at 00:20h, 12 August

    I am very confidant that the Word of God clearly tells us the Truth about the timing of the Coming of Jesus Christ and how everything else then fits perfectly together.
    Paul begs us in 2 Thess 2 to not be deceived or shaken in our minds by anyone…. Jesus will not be Coming and Gathering us together until First comes the Apostasy and the Revealing of the Son of Perdition and Jesus will destroy the Son of Perdition at that same Coming.
    Very clearly Post Trib and lines up perfectly with Revelations 19 and 20 where it is very clear when Jesus descends the Beast and false Prophet are thrown into the Lake of Fire, that is also when the First Resurrection will take place.
    Jesus clearly stated that He will Raise us up at the Last Day, if Jesus said that it is at the Last Day John 6:40 and 6:54 then there is no other Resurrection before that Last day.
    Jesus only ever spoke of Two Resurrections that of the Just and Eternal Life and that of the Unjust and damnation. John 5:29
    Jesus Himself stated that our Recompense will take place at the Resurrection of the Just Luke 14:14
    Jesus Himself stated that those that are accounty Worthy to be in the next Age and the Resurrection of the Dead will not Marry Luke 20:35
    Jesus stated that those that are in that Resurrection are Children of God and Children of the Resurrection and cannot Die Luke 20:36
    Jesus stated that we who follow Him will sit with Him in the Throne of His Glory in the Regeneration (which is the Resurrection of Life and in the New Age) Matthew 19:28
    God Himself states that the First Resurrection takes place in Revelations 20 and that they that are in That First Resurrection are Blessed and Holy and will Rule and Reign with Jesus for the same 1000 Year period that Satan is bound for. Rev 20
    Jesus will not descend from Heaven until the Wife has made herself ready and the Wife has been given the Authority to be dressed in the Righteousness of each saint. Rev 19
    Jesus dos not descend until the Marriage is about to take place and the Guests are about to attend Rev 19
    The Resurrection of the Dead does not take place until Jesus descends from Heaven with all His Saints, all that rest in Jesus , the Resurrection of the Dead takes place then we are Raptured into the Air to meet Jesus (Not Heaven) 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15, and 1 Thess 3:13 and 2 Thess 1:10
    The Husbandman waits patiently for the Precious Fruit of the Earth to receive the early and Latter Rain James 5:7
    The Wheat and Tares must grow together until the harvest at the end of the age Mathew 13:30 and 13:39-40
    The Sign of the Son of Man is seen after the Great Tribulation Period is completed and the events are seen in the Sun, Moon and Stars Math 24:29-31
    Then Jesus descends from Heaven and Gathers all of the Elect to Himself from the Farthest parts of Heaven and the farthest parts of earth. Math 24 and mark and Luke
    All of the Things must be seen happening before Jesus will be at the Door and before we are to lift our heads because our redemption draws near.Math 24:33, Mark 13:29 and Luke 21:28 and Luke 21:31
    As you can see when you put all of these pieces together you get a very clear picture, there is only ONE Resurrection that the Believers in God will be in and it is at the End of the Age and it will begin the New Age..
    Yes the Church will see the Antichrist as Jesus destroys the Antichrist at His coming when He gathers us together to Himself.
    The First Resurrection is the First Resurrection and Blessed and Holy is he that is in the First Resurrection!

  • DANIEL DUDLEY
    Posted at 06:47h, 12 August

    To David William, Thank you for your interest in what I presented. I do not have any videos of my teaching but I do have PowerPoint presentations of my teaching verse by verse through the Book of Revelation that I could send to your email (if you give it to me. My email is llpxpb@aol.com) or possibly load on a public web page. I have my timeline and arguments for a post-trib rapture at theposttribulationrapture.weebly.com I just saw your second post and appreciate your additional arguments.

    To Nelson Walters, I appreciate and agree with your attitude and desire to seek Christian unity on this issue. It does seem that we have enough information about His return that, with the help of the Holy Spirit, we should be able to solve this case and come to an agreement eventually.

    To Joel, you made a great point that Paul unarguably expounds upon and uses language from the Matt. 24 passage. Hear is my comparison of these two passages;
    Ref. in I Thes. 4:13-5:6 Ref. in Matt. 24:29-44 (Mark 13:24-37)
    Compare I Thes. 4:13-5:6 with Matt. 24:29-44. Notice how many similar or identical ideas appear. Do you think these two passages are describing two separate events or the same event? Remember, God is not the author of confusion.
    1. The coming of the Lord, I Thes. 4:15, Son of man coming, Matt. 24:30

    2. Lord descends from heaven, 16 (coming down from heaven implied) 30

    3. voice of the archangel, 16 (angels gather elect) 31 See Jude 9, Rev 12:7, Dan. 12:1-2

    4. trumpet of God, 16 (sound of a trumpet) 31

    5. caught up together, 17 (gathered together) 31

    6. in the clouds, 17 in the clouds 30

    7. timing unknown 1-2 day and hour unknown 36, 44

    8. day of the Lord, 5:2 (sun darkened, moon dark, stars fall, heavens shake) signs associated with the day of the Lord 29, see Joel 2:30-31, 3:14-16

    9. comes like a thief in the night, 2, 4 time of night the thief was coming 43

    10. “they” say peace and safety, 3 (“they” were eat and drinking, etc.) 38

    11. then destruction comes, 3 (the flood came) 39

    12. suddenly, 3 day Noah entered the ark-flood came 39

    13. like a woman about to give birth 3 like a fig tree sprouting leaves 32

    14. they shall not escape 3 (took them all away ((none escape)) 39

    15. so then, be alert, 6 for this reason, be alert, 42, 43

    Here are some responses to the points about pre wrath made in the Underground video.
    The first argument for the pre wrath view given by Nelson Walters is that the Olivet discourse is said to be parallel to the seals (which I agree) but it does not have any evidence of the trumpets or bowls: First of all this is an argument from silence-that since the Olivet Discourse doesn’t mention the events of the trumpets or bowls, they must follow them chronologically. As you know, an argument from silence is known to be the weakest of all arguments. Secondly, in Matt. 24 we do see at least one trumpet (v. 31) which is later identified by Paul as the last trumpet at the time of Christ’s return and we do see one bowl the sixth bowl which talks about his coming like a thief. (v. 43).

    The second argument suggested by Nelson Walters is that he claims that Jesus returns to heaven after gathering the believers from earth (“a direction and a destination”) and uses the phrase from “will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven” from Mark 13 to argue that we are returned from the earth to heaven. But if you look at Matthew 24 all the believers are gathered “from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other” not gathered to heaven and in Mark when it says gathered from earth and heaven it is describing a range of places from where believers are gathered, not a direction anda destination. The spirits or souls that are in heaven and the natural bodied Christians on earth are all gathered together at the rapture. They are not gathered from the earth to take to heaven. Just as the National Anthem says “from sea to shining sea” it is describing a range of places from where people are gathered.

    A third argument was that regarding Revelation 6-7 where Nelson Walters thinks that wearing white robes indicates the innumerable multitude are in glorified bodies and thus the rapture has happened and has taken them to heaven. Nelson said that in chapter 6:9-11 the souls of martyrs are given white robes but told to wait…Nelson is implying that they are told to wait to put the robes on until they get their glorified bodies. But actually they are told to wait (not to put their robes on) but for revenge and judgment on those who shed their blood until the number of martyrs is complete. But since they are given the robes to appease their apparent disquietude for judgement and vengeance a normal reading would be that they put the robes on when they are given the robes, not that they put the robes in their heavenly closet until they get their resurrected bodies so they can put their robes on. Since God gave then the robes they must be able while they are still souls (without glorified bodies) to wear them. Then when those in Rev. 7 are described as wearing white robes (in the context of chapter 6) it is identifying them with those souls from chapter 6. Even in this passage we see that God doesn’t bring judgement (the essence of the day of the Lord) and vengeance until the last martyr has been killed which doesn’t happen until the end of the 1260 days. (This would probably be the two witnesses who are killed after they finish their testimony which is after 1260 days.) So to say that those wearing white robes in Rev. 7 is evidence they are in resurrected bodies I think is ignoring the context and a normal understanding of Rev. 6:9-11.

    A forth argument suggested by Joel in the above video is that the second coming is a very complex event, a sword not a magic wand. I do agree that the second coming is a very complex event but I don’t see anything described that Jesus could not do in a single day as Reggie Kelly has pointed out in the post above, or that He doesn’t do once He has returned to earth after Daniel’s 70th week while He is setting up His kingdom, apparently during the extra 75 days in Daniel 12:11-12.

    The original pre wrath view had Jesus hovering in the clouds for several years and then coming down to earth. This was at least was better than the U-turn return described by Nelson Walters. (This type of return is also described with a pre-trib and a mid-trib rapture) But it violates the description given in Acts 1 where Jesus’ return is described as being in the same way or in the same manner as you saw him go into heaven. He went straight from earth to heaven and will come back straight from heaven to earth with no u-turn.

    The Antichrist had been spoken of by Rosenthal as having been rendered useless somewhere in the middle of the second three and a half years but at the end of those three and a half years he does something which no one else on earth has the power to do which is to kill the two witnesses. Prior to that anyone who tried to kill them would be destroyed by fire which would proceed out of their mouth. Somehow this antichrist who has been rendered useless is able to muster the power to kill these two witnesses. It looks like he isn’t rendered useless until after the 1260 days when the two witnesses had finished their testimony.

    It seems that the well stated principle that “all the fingers in the glove must fit” and if they don’t fit, we must ….acquiesce, applies to the pre wrath rapture. His coming is a one-way one direction coming from heaven to earth; the Antichrist is not “rendered useless” in the middle of his granted 42 months to act; the two witnesses witness a full thousand two hundred sixty days, the same 42 months that the Antichrist is exercising his authority and at the end of those days he kills them; the last trumpet is very difficult to explain as being not the seventh trumpet but a trumpet which is followed by seven more trumpets; the first resurrection doesn’t fit being the last of three resurrections of believers as described above. Much ink must be spent trying to make all the descriptions of the second coming fit a pre wrath rapture as both Reggie and I have discussed above. It is my view that the simplest explanation (recall Occam’s razor) is usually the best explanation and I think this principle applies to the discussion of the rapture. I believe the post-trib view with just one return of Jesus is the simplest and best explanation of the second coming. This view encourages us to be prepared to face the antichrist for the entire tribulation, to seek to lead the lost to repentance and to assist Israel and the Jews throughout this period.

  • David Williams
    Posted at 03:50h, 13 August

    To Joel first of all,

    Thank you Joel for the open opportunity for all in Christ to discuss this Topic, I believe it is beneficial to all and is especially done in Brotherly Love.

    To Daniel Dudley

    Thanks for your response Daniel, I am very interested in the Power Point presentation on the Book of Revelations, my email address for that is davpaulforchrist@gmail.com
    I am looking forward to what you have to offer, I also have two websites on the issue of Christs return as follows
    http://raptureofsaints.com/index.php/2017/08/13/rapture-for-beginners/
    and
    http://jesusiscomingsoon.club/

    There are a few free audios in MP3 on the raptureofsaints.com site all are a working and learning progress

    Cant wait to see what you have Daniel

    Thanks again Joel

  • Nelson Walters
    Posted at 08:10h, 15 August

    Rob Nelson, you indicated my answer was short. Actually it is nearly 400 pages long. In my home church we have a saying, “some questions require an answer, others deserve a conversation.” This question deserves a conversation-a long one. As you can see from the assorted comments, a single proof of rapture timing doesn’t satisfy anyone. Only when we look at all the proofs of all the theories can we come to an understanding. This was one of my purposes in writing, to put all the proofs on the table.

    I highly recommend everyone wait until after Sept. 23rd when the Leadership Edition will be mailed and received. Then a second edition, the Enhanced Edition, will be made available to the general public with about 25% more material. This will be especially helpful for the post-tribulation supporters as it contains answers to all or nearly all the questions posted on this comment sections. Only then when you possess the complete conversation are we ready to discuss this highly relevant question.

    I also notice Reggie Kelly’s name surface in this comments section. I love Reggie just as Joel does and have followed him and studied his work for years. Unlike most of the other 1000 leaders, Reggie is receiving the Enhanced Edition with the extra material befitting his status in my mind. He deserves the complete conversation. Hopefully he will join it and together we can all get past the question of “when” and “to” the question of how to prepare.

  • David Williams
    Posted at 13:21h, 16 August

    Hello Joel,

    Brandon E made a comment just after the beginning of this constructive post, he presented some good points.
    He was humble enough to not say anything about his new book that he has released recently called
    “The Day of the Lord and the Coming Kingdom”
    It is available on Amazon or if anyone clicks on his name it will take them to his Site.
    Can I please Strongly Recommend that Believers Purchase and Read this Brilliant Book that is a Vital Tool that is needed on this Subject as it focuses on the very prayer we pray.
    Your Kingdom Come Your will be done on Earth

    Please consider this request

  • John
    Posted at 06:58h, 17 August

    Sounds like a very interesting read on a topic that is very important and I’ve been curious about for years…
    I believe the author is making a mistake however by only sending the first thousand copies to “church leaders.” Seems kind of elitist and our leaders have failed us too many times. Allow the book to be sold to everyone and let all of the church be bereans.

  • Joel
    Posted at 08:36h, 17 August

    It is being sold everywhere. Patience is basic Christian character trait.

  • Kelly Christman
    Posted at 16:39h, 06 September

    An excellent interview. I can’t wait to get the book and read it for myself. I am a pre-wrath believer who looks forward to learning more about this subject.

  • Rogério
    Posted at 04:39h, 22 October

    Hi Joel,
    From your land Portugal. I do consider the work you have done.
    He is a GOD that declares the end from the begining!
    Consider that and see: WHO first sees Jesus when He raises MARY she was amazed!
    Second Jesus appears to the apostles both jewish and gentiles. They were in fear atribulated!
    Third than he appears to Tomé he didn t believe.
    Forth and than to a few israelits.
    All the confusion about been pré middle pós tribubulation is because first God deals with the church, than deals with israel and unbelivers.
    VERY IMPORTANT SEE THIS LINK the harvest by Perry Stone
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AErsILtVh1s

Post A Comment