The Underground Episode 74: Dr. Michael Heiser: the Flat Earth, Enoch, the Watchers, Hell, Gog Magog

  • shawn
    Posted at 20:21h, 16 July

    Thank you Loel,
    Most of this broadcast went right over my head. I need to learn more. Lots of stuff i have never heard before ever. Makes me wonder what is next that I don’t know.
    Jesus and the Beloved Apostle John 21:24-25
    …24This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who has written them down. And we know that his testimony is true. 25There are many more things that Jesus did. If all of them were written down, I suppose not even the world itself would have space for the books that would be written.

  • Sara Lillis
    Posted at 13:39h, 17 July

    Hey, Joel! Great episode, as always, & very interesting range of topics all packed into one. Impressive how you were able to make them flow together so cohesively, great job!
    A few comments/questions I have:

    1. I look forward to looking into LOGOS Bible Software, thank you for the info, I’m excited!

    2. I found Dr. Michael Heiser’s points & explanations of his views, particularly regarding Intertestament Literature, very compelling & yours as well. It encourages me to look into these writings, which, with exception to Maccabees, I’ve been hesitant to read, my worry being “muddying the waters.” Which would you recommend reading as a starting point?

    3. While Heiser is obviously a brilliant scholar, from what I gathered from his brief synopses of his books, while meaning no offense to him, they seem kind of creepy. Perhaps I’m just not far along enough in my journey to approach those depths but your discussion regarding them did peak my curiosity. Which, if any, would you recommend I read (i.e., the most mellow?)

    4. Thank you for again addressing the “Flat Earth Deception,” it still baffles me that it is an actual movement! To think that the deceptions & delusions on the Earth during the End Times will only increase, I shudder to think how many more will be deceived by the actual CUNNING & INTELLIGENT ones to come that will fool even the elect.

    5. Have you thought about including in your responses to the Flat Earthers who contact you recommending “The Gospel of Christ Crucified”, particularly the explanation & diagrams that John Harrigan puts forth in the 2nd chapter of his book? He gives an awesome, understandable & clear cut explanation comparing the 2 views.

    (BTW, your comment on the fact that the Flat Earthers haven’t (yet!) changed their view to the Earth being a SQUARE is classic, I’m still laughing about your cleverness. Perhaps to the “haters” that are responding to you, you could kindly recommend looking up the definition for “corner” regarding the “4 Corners of the Earth” on ( I did, it was quite entertaining.)

    6. I am also grateful that you again brought up, in my opinion, the false & un-Scriptural growing belief among many (Millennials especially) of Consistant Conditionalism. It seems to me that it is a dangerous “invent your own ending” to the Bible, but even far MORE importantly, it undermines the BEYOND COMPREHENSION SACRIFICE Christ made on our behalf. As you mentioned, if death is ultimately destroyed then the only thing left is eternal LIFE…whether with our Lord in His Kingdom or in eternal torment in hell.

    7. Since this is the perfect number, here’s one more important point to you, just to drive it home:
    “The Global Jesus Revolution” is AWESOME!!!

    As always you & your family are in our prayers,

    Sara Lillis

  • Greg Parker
    Posted at 15:20h, 17 July

    Joel – another great interview – really enjoyed the exchange between you and Dr. Heiser. I’ve read his books and they are indeed very thought provoking. Have you ever personally met Mike?

    Keep it up.


  • Joel
    Posted at 15:22h, 17 July

    Yes, we’ve met. I don’t agree with him on everything, specifically the overly cautious approach to some specifics within eschatology, but I do very much like and appreciate him and his work.

  • Paul
    Posted at 17:14h, 17 July

    Hi Joel!
    Thanks so much once again for real “meat” to chew on when so many are content with “milk” Dr Mike Heiser sure is an interesting guy- I can see what you mean about his “overly cautious” approach to eschatology, but I really appreciate his heart.
    It’s interesting because he seemed to be seeing good in both realized eschatology and apocalypiticism, which John Harrigan writes about in his book, which I so appreciate…in his appendix John points out that to marry the two led to inaugurated eschatology, which G.E. Ladd went onto popularise…
    I try to see balance in all things, and I admit it is a complex subject- I’ve heard notable teachers like Dan Juster seem to speak favourably about realised eschatology for example…but can see yours’ and John’s emphasis too…with the apocalyptic Day of the Lord…

    In regards to the “Flat Earth Delusion” it seems the Apostle Paul had these people in mind when he wrote about: “people will not endure sound teaching” but have “itching ears” and will turn away “from listening to the TRUTH and wander off into myths” also the 2 Thess “Strong Delusion” comes to mind because “they refuse to love the TRUTH”…
    It seems to me the consequences of not loving the TRUTH leads to these errors…my own personal studies of the letters of John on this subject, are very interesting in regard to this…about loving TRUTH…

    Just to wrap up I couldn’t resist sharing this with you and your readers..
    After watching your episode, I received an email later today from IKEA which says:

    “The World isn’t flat – and IKEA isn’t all flatpack”
    It’s pretty hard to challenge common beliefs like the world is flat and IKEA is all flatpack…

    Well…I certainly will go with IKEA over Flat Earthers any day!!!!

    Re: the basement; I guess it is hard looking at those boxes of books you have and getting the willpower to unpack them! Having moved recently, I know the feeling, although it is nice now to see my bookshelf full of classics by: Bonhoeffer, Katz, Derek Prince, Harrigan, Dalton Thomas, Baron, Samuel Whitefield….and a guy called Joel Richardson!!!

    Blessings in Yeshua Joel

    Paul- England, Uk

  • Mary-Jane Di Paola
    Posted at 18:20h, 17 July

    HI Joel,
    Very informative episode! Love hearing over an hour of discussion on very important subjects. Mostly, Enoch, Watchers, Hell and Gog of Magog. I would like to hear you discuss in more detail about what happens at death. Most say believers in Christ are in heaven with the Lord when they die, but if that’s true, does that mean that, “the dead in Christ will rise first” verse in Thessalonians, were resurrected immediately at death. What about the verse that says ” the dead are conscience of nothing”

    I also loved that you brought up the Gog and Russia question. I saw that you will be debating Bill Salus in November on that ver issue. Can’t wait to see that!

    Not sure if you know Amir Tsarfati. He has a website called Behold Israel. He’s a Jewish Christian believer from Israel. He believes that the Anti-Christ has to be from Europe because the Jewish people would not accept a Muslim. He also has a lot of inside up to date Israeli intelligence because he was in their military..

    So happy that you’re back. Love your shows.

    Mary-Jane Di Paola

  • Joel
    Posted at 19:00h, 17 July

    Many Blessings back at you Paul. Praying I will be found worthy to be counted among such great writers and teachers.


  • Mary-Jane Di Paola
    Posted at 10:17h, 18 July

    Joel, I also wanted to mention that I read 2 of your books. When a Jew Rules the World, & Mystery Babylon. Loved them both. Learned a lot. Your analysis makes sense. All the fingers do fit into the glove, as you say. It feels like everything in the Europe, Middle East and the changing in a faster pace.
    May God Bless you and your work.


  • Michael Atkisson
    Posted at 10:39h, 19 July

    Joel, I first started reading/watching Michael Heiser’s material after you first brought up his views in an earlier “Underground”. Since then I’ve made it most of the way through “Unseen Realm” and watched a number of his videos and conferences online. I have to say I haven’t been thunderstruck by a theological view like this since I first started reading your books. I know that you mentioned above about his “overly cautious approach to some specifics within eschatology”, but I was wondering if there was anything else about his views on the divine council, the Nachash (serpent), Nephilim, or the Abrahamic wars that you take issue with? I only ask because I find his views very convincing, but at the same time its kind of scary to realize just how little you actually know about what you’ve grown up believing. Obviously your a proponent of his, but I guess I was just curious just how much you agree with?

  • Joel
    Posted at 12:07h, 19 July

    Hi Michael,

    I have not listened to enough of his stuff to have a strong opinion on these issues. As he said on my show, he is a “small s supersessionist.” Regardless, I greatly appreciate his work and him personally. Much great stuff to glean.

  • Gary
    Posted at 21:35h, 19 July

    Great show, Heiser is always interesting. Joel, in the recent events of what James White is going through, I am really hoping you might address this subject on a future show and perhaps even bring him on. A friend of mine just informed me the latest on what is going on with him and the slander that is being tossed at him. Believing it would fit right in to your objectives of the show as well.

  • Kaye
    Posted at 22:14h, 19 July

    Dear Joel I usually enjoy your episodes but have to say this one was so over my head I don’t really even know what it was about? I did understand the part about flat earth and can’t understand how anyone with any sense could believe it and other then that I was lost.

  • Michael Atkisson
    Posted at 01:54h, 20 July

    You’ll have to forgive my ignorance, what difference does the “small s” make?

  • David Tutwiler
    Posted at 19:39h, 20 July

    Joel this reasoning you and Dr. Heiser are using sounds exactly like that of professors at a growing number of so-called Christian universities who advocate theistic evolution. Saying that the writers of the Scriptures wrote ignorantly of things that modern science has proven otherwise. I can’t believe I am hearing this. If you believe the holy Scriptures are the written Word of God, why would you doubt God’s ability to enlighten the prophets to the reality of all that is known today and beyond what we know today? HAS SCIENCE BECOME YOUR GOD? I’m not arguing for or against the flat Earth paradigm, only trying to show that your reasoning is hurting the infallibility of God’s written Word. Once you believe the Scriptures, or the writers of the Scriptures are ignorant of certain things, even things seemingly related to science, you’ve opened the door to doubt to every curious skeptic you are witnessing to.

  • Joel
    Posted at 03:24h, 21 July

    With all due respect David, your comments are entirely out of order, and you are not making any sense. Either you are affirming a flat earth, or you aren’t. Don’t say on one hadn’t you are not affirming a flat earth, while also launching insults saying that science is my God. There is absolutely nothing “liberal” about affirming that the Bible is the authoritative word of God, while also affirming the reality that God created.

  • David Tutwiler
    Posted at 14:01h, 21 July

    I’m not ready to say one way or the other whether or not I believe in the flat Earth paradigm. Not without exhaustive research and especially not without light from God’s Spirit. I am however willing to say that I will not be ignorant of Satan’s devices and am not afraid to say that conspiracies abound. Take for example evolution, do you believe that via modern science, evolution is one of Satan’s masterpiece efforts at deceiving the masses?

  • Joel
    Posted at 15:07h, 21 July

    I reject Darwinian evolution yes, because it is incompatible with the Bible, but also because scientific reality disproves it. The flat earth is a very different matter. Again, both you and I can easily observe the fact that the earth is spherical. Please ponder the few reasons I list in my latest blog post under Updates.

    My point is that there is no need to get upset because Michael and I are discussing how to rightly understand biblical language concerning these things while also acknowledging the reality of a spherical earth. As I said elsewhere, I would encourage you to take a more Christ-like, and constructive approach to disagreeing with folks. Particularly regarding matters that you are not even sure where you stand yet.


  • David Tutwiler
    Posted at 15:27h, 21 July

    The point in that last post was to see if you would admit that evolution is a Satanic conspiracy. Please answer the question Joel. The readers viewing this post deserve to know if acknowledge this or not.

  • Joel
    Posted at 16:14h, 21 July


    Is Darwinian evolution a satanic lie? Of course. Is the current trending board the flat earth nonsense a satanic lie. Absolutely. Again, I would greatly encourage you to take a less contentious and more loving approach to relating to those with whim you disagree.


  • David Tutwiler
    Posted at 17:03h, 21 July

    Joel, you have voluntarily entered into the realm of public exposure and with that position, you must be open to public scrutiny and accountability for the ideas and opinions you put forth. We will not confuse meaningful debate and dialogue with unloving, un-Christlike name calling. Please admit, public exposure and the idea of conspiracy don’t go well together. I still have not seen you admit that the ‘prince of this world’ is heading maybe the biggest CONSPIRACY since the one originating in the garden, evolution.
    (say the word, Joel)

  • Joel
    Posted at 17:57h, 21 July


    Try as I have to give you the opportunity to have either an intelligent, mature, or respectful discussion, you seem quite determined to avoid all of the above. I genuinely tried. Being that you seem determined to lecture and not dialogue, this will be my last comment to you.

    Satan, who is also called the accuser of the brethren, is indeed behind many conspiracies. The claim however, of the flat earthers that literally hundreds of thousands of scientists, including tens of thousands of Christian scientists, pilots, and other professionals are all purposefully lying and deceiving the world in order to collaborate with Satan, is simply downright asinine. Those who embrace such a view not only are partnering with the accuser of the brethren himself, but they are failing to use the very brain that God has given them.

    Be blessed.

  • Michael Atkisson
    Posted at 10:51h, 22 July

    Lets see, first he accuses Joel and Dr. Heiser of being evolutionist. Then he accuses them of worshipping science. Next he refuses to state his beliefs on a flat earth, he then defends his poor attitude and hostile nature as “meaningful debate and dialogue “, before finally ignoring all of Joel’s replies and belittling him. Seems like a great way to reach out to others.

    Anyways… I tried to look it up but couldn’t find it anywhere. Can someone tell me what Dr. Heiser meant when he said he is a “small s supersessionist.” ?


  • Joel
    Posted at 16:24h, 22 July


    Supersessionism exists on a spectrum. Some forms are far more anti-Semitic and destructive than others. It can become rather technical. R. Kendall Soulen, a Lutheran scholar, in his book, (the title of which slips my mind right now), has broken supersessionism down into three categories: Punitive, economic, and structural supersessionism. I think Michael was inferring that he holds to a milder form of supersessionism, most likely what most would call “inclusion theology” or something along these lines. As I have said before, even milder form of inclusion theology cannot be reconciled with the language of the covenants and can also have some dangerous implications. This is why I use the term restorationism. Although I firmly believe Jesus and Paul would agree, it is God who knows best.


  • John W. Daniels
    Posted at 05:27h, 23 July


    Thank you for doing this podcast. I’m now finding the exhaustive audio that Dr. Heiser has done over the years. I’m currently listening to a 6 hour lecture on the faults of the Da Vinci Code. I teach the Medieval Period so the insights on Gnosticism and other heresies is very interesting and should enhance my lessons.

    The Logos software looks very interesting. Which level do you think is the best value if I want easy access to the original text of works to look at words and how they were translated?

  • Joel
    Posted at 09:26h, 23 July

    Contact Logos and they will help you custom tailor a suite to your needs.

  • Linda Keyes
    Posted at 13:27h, 23 July

    Maybe a Jewish exile from Turkey on the cards Joel,7340,L-4993249,00.html

  • Bill Nordstrom
    Posted at 16:06h, 23 July


    Certainly enjoyed this discussion with Dr. Heiser. Much to glean. Related to this discussion, have you been able to present Dr. Heiser with any of the writings of Reggie Kelly at: Kelly presents eschatological positions on the centrality of Israel at the end of the age, perspectives with which Heiser may have some agreement.

  • Debbie Malcolm
    Posted at 16:27h, 23 July

    Thanks Joel for making us think!!🤔 Always respect & stay humble watchful
    Again thanks Blessings

  • Joel
    Posted at 17:26h, 23 July

    I have not. Obviously Heiser’s specialty / area of focus is quite different than Reggie’s. I do not dialogue frequently with Michael, but he has mentioned that he has a long list of books before him, that have been sent to him. This is the challenge for me as well. I get a new book in the mail that I am assured is a “must read,” nearly every few days. I will say that once I get my new studio built I hope to have Reggie on much more whenever he comes to town. Always love hearing Reggie share from his rich wealth of spiritual knowledge and wisdom. Such a treasure.

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