43 Responses

1. Thank you Loel,
   Most of this broadcast went right over my head. I need to learn more. Lots of stuff i have never heard before ever. Makes me wonder what is next that I don’t know.
   Jesus and the Beloved Apostle John 21:24-25
   …24This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who has written them down. And we know that his testimony is true. 25There are many more things that Jesus did. If all of them were written down, I suppose not even the world itself would have space for the books that would be written.

2. Hey, Joel! Great episode, as always, & very interesting range of topics all packed into one. Impressive how you were able to make them flow together so cohesively, great job!
   A few comments/questions I have:

   1. I look forward to looking into LOGOS Bible Software, thank you for the info, I’m excited!

   2. I found Dr. Michael Heiser’s points & explanations of his views, particularly regarding Intertestament Literature, very compelling & yours as well. It encourages me to look into these writings, which, with exception to Maccabees, I’ve been hesitant to read, my worry being “muddying the waters.” Which would you recommend reading as a starting point?

   3. While Heiser is obviously a brilliant scholar, from what I gathered from his brief synopses of his books, while meaning no offense to him, they seem kind of creepy. Perhaps I’m just not far along enough in my journey to approach those depths but your discussion regarding them did peak my curiosity. Which, if any, would you recommend I read (i.e., the most mellow?)

   4. Thank you for again addressing the “Flat Earth Deception,” it still baffles me that it is an actual movement! To think that the deceptions & delusions on the Earth during the End Times will only increase, I shudder to think how many more will be deceived by the actual CUNNING & INTELLIGENT ones to come that will fool even the elect.

   5. Have you thought about including in your responses to the Flat Earthers who contact you recommending “The Gospel of Christ Crucified”, particularly the explanation & diagrams that John Harrigan puts forth in the 2nd chapter of his book? He gives an awesome, understandable & clear cut explanation comparing the 2 views.

   (BTW, your comment on the fact that the Flat Earthers haven’t (yet!) changed their view to the Earth being a SQUARE is classic, I’m still laughing about your cleverness. Perhaps to the “haters” that are responding to you, you could kindly recommend looking up the definition for “corner” regarding the “4 Corners of the Earth” on dictionary.com ( I did, it was quite entertaining.)

   6. I am also grateful that you again brought up, in my opinion, the false & un-Scriptural growing belief among many (Millennials especially) of Consistant Conditionalism. It seems to me that it is a dangerous “invent your own ending” to the Bible, but even far MORE importantly, it undermines the BEYOND COMPREHENSION SACRIFICE Christ made on our behalf. As you mentioned, if death is ultimately destroyed then the only thing left is eternal LIFE…whether with our Lord in His Kingdom or in eternal torment in hell.

   7. Since this is the perfect number, here’s one more important point to you, just to drive it home:
   “The Global Jesus Revolution” is AWESOME!!!

   As always you & your family are in our prayers,

   Sara Lillis

3. Joel – another great interview – really enjoyed the exchange between you and Dr. Heiser. I’ve read his books and they are indeed very thought provoking. Have you ever personally met Mike?

   Keep it up.

   Greg

4. Yes, we’ve met. I don’t agree with him on everything, specifically the overly cautious approach to some specifics within eschatology, but I do very much like and appreciate him and his work.

5. Hi Joel!
   Thanks so much once again for real “meat” to chew on when so many are content with “milk” Dr Mike Heiser sure is an interesting guy- I can see what you mean about his “overly cautious” approach to eschatology, but I really appreciate his heart.
   It’s interesting because he seemed to be seeing good in both realized eschatology and apocalypiticism, which John Harrigan writes about in his book, which I so appreciate…in his appendix John points out that to marry the two led to inaugurated eschatology, which G.E. Ladd went onto popularise…
   I try to see balance in all things, and I admit it is a complex subject- I’ve heard notable teachers like Dan Juster seem to speak favourably about realised eschatology for example…but can see yours’ and John’s emphasis too…with the apocalyptic Day of the Lord…

   In regards to the “Flat Earth Delusion” it seems the Apostle Paul had these people in mind when he wrote about: “people will not endure sound teaching” but have “itching ears” and will turn away “from listening to the TRUTH and wander off into myths” also the 2 Thess “Strong Delusion” comes to mind because “they refuse to love the TRUTH”…
   It seems to me the consequences of not loving the TRUTH leads to these errors…my own personal studies of the letters of John on this subject, are very interesting in regard to this…about loving TRUTH…

   Just to wrap up I couldn’t resist sharing this with you and your readers..
   After watching your episode, I received an email later today from IKEA which says:

   “The World isn’t flat – and IKEA isn’t all flatpack”
   It’s pretty hard to challenge common beliefs like the world is flat and IKEA is all flatpack…

   Well…I certainly will go with IKEA over Flat Earthers any day!!!!

   Re: the basement; I guess it is hard looking at those boxes of books you have and getting the willpower to unpack them! Having moved recently, I know the feeling, although it is nice now to see my bookshelf full of classics by: Bonhoeffer, Katz, Derek Prince, Harrigan, Dalton Thomas, Baron, Samuel Whitefield….and a guy called Joel Richardson!!!

   Blessings in Yeshua Joel

   Paul- England, Uk

6. HI Joel,
   Very informative episode! Love hearing over an hour of discussion on very important subjects. Mostly, Enoch, Watchers, Hell and Gog of Magog. I would like to hear you discuss in more detail about what happens at death. Most say believers in Christ are in heaven with the Lord when they die, but if that’s true, does that mean that, “the dead in Christ will rise first” verse in Thessalonians, were resurrected immediately at death. What about the verse that says ” the dead are conscience of nothing”

   I also loved that you brought up the Gog and Russia question. I saw that you will be debating Bill Salus in November on that ver issue. Can’t wait to see that!

   Not sure if you know Amir Tsarfati. He has a website called Behold Israel. He’s a Jewish Christian believer from Israel. He believes that the Anti-Christ has to be from Europe because the Jewish people would not accept a Muslim. He also has a lot of inside up to date Israeli intelligence because he was in their military..

   So happy that you’re back. Love your shows.

   Mary-Jane Di Paola

7. Many Blessings back at you Paul. Praying I will be found worthy to be counted among such great writers and teachers.

   Blessings!
   Joel

8. Joel, I also wanted to mention that I read 2 of your books. When a Jew Rules the World, & Mystery Babylon. Loved them both. Learned a lot. Your analysis makes sense. All the fingers do fit into the glove, as you say. It feels like everything in the Europe, Middle East and the U.S.is changing in a faster pace.
   May God Bless you and your work.

   Mary-Jane

9. Joel, I first started reading/watching Michael Heiser’s material after you first brought up his views in an earlier “Underground”. Since then I’ve made it most of the way through “Unseen Realm” and watched a number of his videos and conferences online. I have to say I haven’t been thunderstruck by a theological view like this since I first started reading your books. I know that you mentioned above about his “overly cautious approach to some specifics within eschatology”, but I was wondering if there was anything else about his views on the divine council, the Nachash (serpent), Nephilim, or the Abrahamic wars that you take issue with? I only ask because I find his views very convincing, but at the same time its kind of scary to realize just how little you actually know about what you’ve grown up believing. Obviously your a proponent of his, but I guess I was just curious just how much you agree with?

10. Hi Michael,

    I have not listened to enough of his stuff to have a strong opinion on these issues. As he said on my show, he is a “small s supersessionist.” Regardless, I greatly appreciate his work and him personally. Much great stuff to glean.

11. Great show, Heiser is always interesting. Joel, in the recent events of what James White is going through, I am really hoping you might address this subject on a future show and perhaps even bring him on. A friend of mine just informed me the latest on what is going on with him and the slander that is being tossed at him. Believing it would fit right in to your objectives of the show as well.

12. Dear Joel I usually enjoy your episodes but have to say this one was so over my head I don’t really even know what it was about? I did understand the part about flat earth and can’t understand how anyone with any sense could believe it and other then that I was lost.

13. You’ll have to forgive my ignorance, what difference does the “small s” make?

14. Joel this reasoning you and Dr. Heiser are using sounds exactly like that of professors at a growing number of so-called Christian universities who advocate theistic evolution. Saying that the writers of the Scriptures wrote ignorantly of things that modern science has proven otherwise. I can’t believe I am hearing this. If you believe the holy Scriptures are the written Word of God, why would you doubt God’s ability to enlighten the prophets to the reality of all that is known today and beyond what we know today? HAS SCIENCE BECOME YOUR GOD? I’m not arguing for or against the flat Earth paradigm, only trying to show that your reasoning is hurting the infallibility of God’s written Word. Once you believe the Scriptures, or the writers of the Scriptures are ignorant of certain things, even things seemingly related to science, you’ve opened the door to doubt to every curious skeptic you are witnessing to.

15. With all due respect David, your comments are entirely out of order, and you are not making any sense. Either you are affirming a flat earth, or you aren’t. Don’t say on one hadn’t you are not affirming a flat earth, while also launching insults saying that science is my God. There is absolutely nothing “liberal” about affirming that the Bible is the authoritative word of God, while also affirming the reality that God created.

16. I’m not ready to say one way or the other whether or not I believe in the flat Earth paradigm. Not without exhaustive research and especially not without light from God’s Spirit. I am however willing to say that I will not be ignorant of Satan’s devices and am not afraid to say that conspiracies abound. Take for example evolution, do you believe that via modern science, evolution is one of Satan’s masterpiece efforts at deceiving the masses?

17. I reject Darwinian evolution yes, because it is incompatible with the Bible, but also because scientific reality disproves it. The flat earth is a very different matter. Again, both you and I can easily observe the fact that the earth is spherical. Please ponder the few reasons I list in my latest blog post under Updates.

    My point is that there is no need to get upset because Michael and I are discussing how to rightly understand biblical language concerning these things while also acknowledging the reality of a spherical earth. As I said elsewhere, I would encourage you to take a more Christ-like, and constructive approach to disagreeing with folks. Particularly regarding matters that you are not even sure where you stand yet.

    Blessings!
    Joel

18. The point in that last post was to see if you would admit that evolution is a Satanic conspiracy. Please answer the question Joel. The readers viewing this post deserve to know if acknowledge this or not.

19. David,

    Is Darwinian evolution a satanic lie? Of course. Is the current trending board the flat earth nonsense a satanic lie. Absolutely. Again, I would greatly encourage you to take a less contentious and more loving approach to relating to those with whim you disagree.

    Regards,
    Joel

20. Joel, you have voluntarily entered into the realm of public exposure and with that position, you must be open to public scrutiny and accountability for the ideas and opinions you put forth. We will not confuse meaningful debate and dialogue with unloving, un-Christlike name calling. Please admit, public exposure and the idea of conspiracy don’t go well together. I still have not seen you admit that the ‘prince of this world’ is heading maybe the biggest CONSPIRACY since the one originating in the garden, evolution.
    (say the word, Joel)

21. David,

    Try as I have to give you the opportunity to have either an intelligent, mature, or respectful discussion, you seem quite determined to avoid all of the above. I genuinely tried. Being that you seem determined to lecture and not dialogue, this will be my last comment to you.

    Satan, who is also called the accuser of the brethren, is indeed behind many conspiracies. The claim however, of the flat earthers that literally hundreds of thousands of scientists, including tens of thousands of Christian scientists, pilots, and other professionals are all purposefully lying and deceiving the world in order to collaborate with Satan, is simply downright asinine. Those who embrace such a view not only are partnering with the accuser of the brethren himself, but they are failing to use the very brain that God has given them.

    Be blessed.
    Joel

22. Lets see, first he accuses Joel and Dr. Heiser of being evolutionist. Then he accuses them of worshipping science. Next he refuses to state his beliefs on a flat earth, he then defends his poor attitude and hostile nature as “meaningful debate and dialogue “, before finally ignoring all of Joel’s replies and belittling him. Seems like a great way to reach out to others.

    Anyways… I tried to look it up but couldn’t find it anywhere. Can someone tell me what Dr. Heiser meant when he said he is a “small s supersessionist.” ?

    Thanks!

23. Michael,

    Supersessionism exists on a spectrum. Some forms are far more anti-Semitic and destructive than others. It can become rather technical. R. Kendall Soulen, a Lutheran scholar, in his book, (the title of which slips my mind right now), has broken supersessionism down into three categories: Punitive, economic, and structural supersessionism. I think Michael was inferring that he holds to a milder form of supersessionism, most likely what most would call “inclusion theology” or something along these lines. As I have said before, even milder form of inclusion theology cannot be reconciled with the language of the covenants and can also have some dangerous implications. This is why I use the term restorationism. Although I firmly believe Jesus and Paul would agree, it is God who knows best.

    Blessings,
    Joel

24. Joel,

    Thank you for doing this podcast. I’m now finding the exhaustive audio that Dr. Heiser has done over the years. I’m currently listening to a 6 hour lecture on the faults of the Da Vinci Code. I teach the Medieval Period so the insights on Gnosticism and other heresies is very interesting and should enhance my lessons.

    The Logos software looks very interesting. Which level do you think is the best value if I want easy access to the original text of works to look at words and how they were translated?

25. Contact Logos and they will help you custom tailor a suite to your needs.

26. Maybe a Jewish exile from Turkey on the cards Joel

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4993249,00.html

27. Joel,

    Certainly enjoyed this discussion with Dr. Heiser. Much to glean. Related to this discussion, have you been able to present Dr. Heiser with any of the writings of Reggie Kelly at: the.mysteryofIsrael.org? Kelly presents eschatological positions on the centrality of Israel at the end of the age, perspectives with which Heiser may have some agreement.

28. Thanks Joel for making us think!!???? Always respect & stay humble watchful
    Again thanks Blessings
    Debbie

29. I have not. Obviously Heiser’s specialty / area of focus is quite different than Reggie’s. I do not dialogue frequently with Michael, but he has mentioned that he has a long list of books before him, that have been sent to him. This is the challenge for me as well. I get a new book in the mail that I am assured is a “must read,” nearly every few days. I will say that once I get my new studio built I hope to have Reggie on much more whenever he comes to town. Always love hearing Reggie share from his rich wealth of spiritual knowledge and wisdom. Such a treasure.

30. Hey Joel,
    Loved this episode! Such a wealth of great snippets of info and insight. I could have listened to you guys talk for a couple more hours.
    I didn’t realize you believed in evolution…just kidding 🙂 Can’t believe that is how someone interpreted your view. the Church loves to attack it’s own.

31. Joel, Doug & Michael,

    I do apologize to you Joel for my being a bit too harsh in my language, please forgive me. I do have a lot of respect for you and I know I could have presented my points with a lot more tact.

    Doug and Michael, If you read the post a little more carefully, you will see that I did not state that they believed in evolution, only that they are using the same form of reasoning many professors in so-called christian universities use to advocate for theistic evolution.

    I am careful to say whether or not I believe or do not believe in anything that comes from modern Science or more specifically, the children of the Devil. They do have an agenda that we must acknowledge.

    With that said, has anyone seen the documentary, “The Principle”?

    Respectfully yours,
    David

32. David,

    Thank you very much for this. It’s deeply appreciated.

    I have seen the documentary, and found it quite fascinating. It suggests that the universe itself is geocentric, something that I think may be very likely. Moreso, it uses secular scientists to establish this. I find that many flat-earthers mix arguments for a heliocentric versus geocentric model of the galaxy, when these are in fact two very different matters. One may believe in a geocentric universe while also rejecting the flat earth nonsense.

    Many blessings to you,
    Joel

33. David,
    I commend you for your gracious response and apology. I was replying with a sarcastic generalization and for that I also apologize. I did get the gist of what you were implying but as leaders in the church we need to be careful with our gunfire for lack of a better typology. I’ll just assume many if not most people on a site like this are leaders in the church. But no matter our position or length of time in the church any who desires God above all else and lives a life pleasing to Him is a leader and guide to others. Times are getting very serious and we must find a way to shoot less at one another. Again thank you for your very unexpected godly response. It’s not seen very often in the web-world.
    God bless you and thank you Joel for providing this platform and the hard work you and your team does.

34. I am not a part of these circles so I cannot say that I have observed the teaching of a flat earth spreading like wildfire. But just listening briefly to this video, I am sickneed and saddened by a christian culture and theology that can produce these ideas. I cannot but think of the warning of St Augustine in his The Literal Meaning of Genesis 1.19.39:

    ‘Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field in which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although “they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion.”‘

35. Joel,

    I would agree with you on this and it is quite fascinating to say the least. Below are a couple of critical voices against “The Principle”. One a respected Christian voice and the other a respected secular voice. The Christian voice goes into criticizing the maker because of his catholic background which I think is absurd.

    The Conspiracy Theorist Who Duped The World’s Biggest Physicists
    http://www.popsci.com/article/science/how-conspiracy-theorist-duped-worlds-biggest-physicists

    Should You Follow The (Copernican) Principle?
    https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/should-you-follow-the-copernican-principle/

36. Interesting. I had not read the criticisms of it. I do respect Faulker, the author at Answers in Genesis whose articles are always quite helpful. I find the efforts of the secular physicist who denounce the film to be quite lame. They cannot take back the things they say in the film, which are all quite damning to their present efforts to take it back. I also notice that the author of the article does nothing to refute their statements within the film. Instead, he just seeks to cast the creator as a loon. Also lame.

37. Hi Joel,

    I appreciate your ‘going out on a limb’ to admit that geocentrism is plausible. Maybe you do an interview with someone to make the case for ordinary folk. I have had some correspondence with Gerard Bouw, who has probably best known for the view. I did read a comment somewhere by an atheist that anyone who reads the Bible straight-forwardly would have to agree that the universe is geocentric, although he does not. The flat-earthers give a bad name to something that was long held to be true. It would be an interesting discussion for an astrophysicist, for example, explain that modern space travel can be done based on either view.

    Blessings,
    Howard

38. Hi Joel,

    Would you consider making your Underground episodes available as audio podcasts? I’d really love to keep up to date with what your releasing, but sadly I rarely have the time so sit and watch the videos. But with podcasts I find the content can be much more easily absorbed, as I can listen to them on a commute, cycling or doing the house chores, etc. Podcasts are how I keep up with most of the content I want to stay in tune with, and I’ve no doubt many other people are the same.

    Of course I understand if that adds an annoying and time-consuming extra layer of admin to do when you are trying to release a new episode. Time is, after all, a most precious commodity.

    Thanks for all you do. Your ministry is insightful and inspiring.

    Every Blessing,
    Aidan

39. Hi Aidan,

    That’s the plan. I just haven’t had the time to do it yet.

40. Joel, just watched the Dr Heiser interview. It was great. Because of you and your first interview with him last year, I read Unseem Realm, watched some 60+ hours of Heisers teaching. It really changed how I read and see the bible. Answered many questions I’ve been carrying for years, especially the Conquest. Like you, I do not agree with everything Heiser is saying or teaching. But you both are my favorite teachers by far. God Bless your ministry.

41. Ok Joel I listened to Unseen Realm on audiobooks and then went back and relistened to this episode of the Underground ,love it! I get now what you all were talking about! Keep these underground episodes coming! I have also listened to your Book Mystery of Babylon and loved it to, you have made a believer out of me for the Turkey invasion and Saudi being the Harlot. I am so in love with Christ I look forward to the coming Kingdom, one last thought, He came the first time and He is definitely coming back again!. Praise God! and thank you God for sending Christ!. Hope to catch your seminar in Louisville KY this fall.

    Blessing Kaye

42. Blessings Kaye!

43. Hi Joel, long time fan of you and your content! (My first post on the underground.) Dr. Michael Heiser is such a gift to the common man Berean who wants to go deep and get a taste of the world of Academic scholars who study the bible in its ancient historical context. I thought I would write something after I read all the comments people posted on the two episodes you made about the Flat Earth controversy. So, mainly I am addressing your audience because of their responses as I assume your are getting a good feel of the content Heiser produces. (his book the Unseen Realm is Just amazing and eye opening!) There seems to be a general consensus among Scholars that the writers of ancient documents actually believed what they wrote down to be true statements. The following link is a teaching by Dr. Michael Heiser which is Representative of Semitic scholars over the past 100+ years… both Evangelical and Liberal…. it does not seem matter which camp. http://www.moreunseenrealm.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Genesis-and-Ancient-Near-Eastern-Cosmology.pdf

    that is only 3 pages of a literal pile of books and academic papers written by scholars on ancient near east cosmologies and the shared cosmological ideas used by Biblical writers. Michael Heiser says that this cosmology was the “science of their day” and they believed what they wrote and “Yahweh did not bother to change their worldview” See Heiser’s excellent Teaching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSG2s17VooQ

    This information will be perhaps an impossible pill for many evangelicals to accept who believe that the Bible has to be scientifically correct according to modern scientific cosmology models. I think the reason scholars like Heiser are able to approach the inspired scriptures the way they do is because they don’t have the apologetic considerations many evangelicals seems to have as they attempt to defend the doctrine of the “inerrancy of scripture” as they understand it. The way a inerrancy doctrine is defined, articulated and applied is at the heart of the Flat Earth controversy for Christians.

    So, enter Rob Skiba…Rob affirms and agrees with Scholars like Heiser that the Bible describes a cosmology that can be characterized as “Flat Earth”…i.e., a circular disk, set on pillars,covered by a firmament dome, with cosmic waters surrounding this structure above and below….. but disagrees with Heiser on how to interpret and apply the text. To use a quote from Heiser, Skiba is going to be a “flaming uncompromising blind literalist and will take the Biblical writers absolutely at their word”

    But it we accept as “obvious truth” the modern scientific answers of a spherical earth, and the heliocentric solar system and other ideas such as gravity, etc…. then Skiba is engaging in the same hermetical fallacies that other evangelicals make when they try to defend the idea that the biblical writers were given special scientific revelation of the ‘true” shape of the earth.

    One example is saying the Hebrew word for circle really means sphere when the Hebrew has another word for a sphere / ball. Or coming up with various types of Canopy theory’s that surround the globe prior to Noahs Flood when such ideas are foreign to the biblical text and only help us modern minds try and reconcile the bible with modern science ideas for the purpose of defending what we think the doctrine of inerrancy means. Heiser and other scholars like him are fine with letting the bible speak Theological truth and not scientific cosmology.

    Mike Heiser has helped me see that the description of the biblical writers on the subject of cosmology is 100% completely incompatible with modern scientific ideas and models of the cosmos, shape of earth, earths relationship to the sun, etc. For instance the sun, moon and stars were not created till day four and were placed into / under the firmament dome after the waters were separated from the earth by the dome structure in a previous creation day. I agree with Heiser that Hebrew Cosmology descriptions are NOT “poetry” – which seems to be used as a synonym for “not a truth statement” – but rather were believed to be true science of the day. And the greater meaning of the Hebrew cosmology is that it has deep and meaningful theological explanatory power! a subject i want to delve deeper into for sure!

    Concerning the current Flat Earth debate. well, so many issues a “flat earther” has to explain! I think you are right on track with focusing on the southern hemisphere issues, like southern constellations, southern cross star, size of southern oceans, distances between Chile and Australia, etc. Then there is the the whole conspiracy mindset of total distrust of any governmental institution and the enormous scale of the alleged deception. lots of questions.

    Many Blessing, John