Muslim Demographics and the Great Delusion

Joel Richardson WND

Unlike the subjectivity of our hopes, dreams, speculations and most desperate fantasies, with their rigid and inflexible numbers, demographics force us to face reality.

The Christian Church is about to have a head-on clash with a very real demographic giant. Recognizing the epic proportions of this coming clash, some are even now shouting from the rooftops to prepare you for the massive challenge ahead. Others, however, seem to be determined to lull the church back to sleep. “Don’t worry,” they say, “The giant with suffer a massive heart attack before he even arrives at the battle lines. Go back to sleep.”

Present demographic realities make it all too abundantly clear that as the church continues to slow down in its growth globally, the religion of Islam is simply outpacing us. Any simple acknowledgment of these demographic trends will make it all too abundantly clear that Islam represents the single greatest challenge the Christian church will face before the return of Jesus. If the church rises to meet this challenge, then it will succeed in fulfilling one of its primary callings. If the church fails to recognize and meet this challenge, it will have failed to fulfill one of its most important mandates before the return of Jesus. Shepherds, whose job it is to look after the sheep, must not allow this to happen.

It is necessary then to identify and expose any wrong ideas within the church that are holding her back from meeting this challenge. One of the most powerful lies being propagated in certain quarters of the church is rooted in a brazenly false interpretation of not only the Scriptures, but also global demographics. This lie, which is infecting many quarters of the church, says that through a series of prophesied battles, the religion of Islam is simply going to go away all on its own, perhaps even quite soon. If you do not believe that this is being widely taught, then consider just a small sampling of comments made only recently by various teachers as they articulate this view:

“There is no need whatsoever to warn the Bride of Christ [the church] about some non-existent islamic (sic) myth … Islam will not exist by the time the 70th Week begins.” – Sean Osborne-Lomax

“The war of Psalm 83 followed by the war of Ezekiel 38 will result in the annihilation of nearly all the armies of the Muslim nations of the Middle East … [The] Middle East will be reduced to ashes! … There are two wars that are indicated most likely before or just at the beginning of the Tribulation… In my opinion, those wars are going to pretty well wipe out the Muslims in the Middle East.” – David Reagan

“Islam is just another system that will be wiped out before the Antichrist instills (sic) his system … The Gog-Magog Battle of Ezekiel 38-39 that will soon end the Islamic threat before the Antichrist even comes on the scene. Islam’s days are numbered well before the Antichrist’s empire.” – Nathan Jones

“The sense that Islam is becoming stronger and more unified … has caused many to assume that they [Muslims] will realize their goal. Certainly, Islamic leaders of the Middle East believe this. But it also seems that their belief is beginning to convince Western society and even Christians! And this, in spite of the fact that Bible prophecy specifically calls for an unprecedented destruction of Islam in a coming great war.” – Gary Stearman

The many problems with these comments are actually too legion to detail here. But one factor that these men have obviously failed to recognize is the actual demographic reality of the Muslim world. Too many wrongly believe that most of the world’s Muslims live in the Middle East. The truth, however, is that the vast majority of Muslims live outside of the Middle East. In fact, close to half of all Muslims globally live in the four countries of Indonesia, Pakistan, India and Bangladesh. (Indonesia has a Muslim population of 202 million, Pakistan has 175 million, India has 161 million and Bangladesh has 145 million.) Yet neither Psalm 83 nor Ezekiel 38,39, the two passages that some wrongly claim will soon “wipe out” Muslims and Islam globally, include any of these nations.

As I said, the large majority of the World’s Muslims lives outside of the Middle East. Today there are more Muslims in either France (3.5 million) or Germany (4 million) than in Lebanon (2.5 million).

So here is where a mixture of biblical prophecy and fantasy collide with the harsh realities of demographics. If we list every single nation that has ever been even suggested as being part of both Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38,39, this would still only represent less than one-third of the total Muslim world population. If every single soldier in every nation that has ever been suggested as being part of Psalm 83 or Ezekiel 38,39 was gone, this would only represent less than 2 percent of the total 1.6 billion Muslims of the world. So because a mere 2 percent of the Muslims of the world are defeated, somehow this means that the other 1.6 billion Muslims will no longer exist or that they will all suddenly convert to a new religion?

Let’s take this scenario even further. Let’s imagine that every single person in every one of these nations was removed from the picture, leaving not a single survivor, man, woman or child, something no one is even suggesting will occur, then how would this change things? Would Islam be “wiped out” as the denialists claim? Far from it. In fact, there would still remain well over a billion Muslims worldwide. Islam would continue to have more adherents than Protestant Christianity globally. Muslims would continue to be a vast and vibrant force worldwide. Let’s look at the actual statistics:

So, as we can see, even if every single nation that anyone has ever been suggested to be part of the nations detailed within Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38,39, were wiped out, more than two-thirds of all Muslims globally would remain. The four largest Muslim nations in the earth would be entirely untouched. Any suggestion that Islam will disappear from the earth several years prior to the return of Jesus is a fantasy.

No amount of denial, prophetic or interpretive manipulation, wishful thinking or hiding our heads in the sand will make Islam go away. And this is where all genuine Christian shepherds should be deeply concerned. Far too many Christians, rather than encouraging the Christian church to obey Jesus and fulfill the Great Commission among Muslims, are sitting back and daydreaming about the time when Islam will simply go away on its own. It’s not going to happen. It’s time for the church to wake up and get ready. There is a clash ahead. How this clash concludes will depend on how we respond now.

The challenge of Islam is indeed great. But if even a small portion of the church hears the alarm, chooses to obey Jesus and rises to meet the challenge, then I have every confidence that the church can overcome the giant that lies ahead.

Then it happened when Goliath the Philistine rose and came and drew near to meet David, that David ran quickly toward the battle line to meet him.

You know the rest of the story.

34 Comments
  • Lisa
    Posted at 23:46h, 19 August

    “Strong delusion” indeed, as is so much of the propaganda and myth that has been put forth in the name of Islam in our culture.

  • Joel Varner
    Posted at 00:22h, 20 August

    Great article, Joel! The most dangerous part of the misunderstanding of Islam being wiped out is that many church leaders aren’t encouraging their congregants to fulfill the Great Commission in the Middle East. But by the grace of God many of us are being stirred to go. There isn’t anything more important than sending witnesses to the 10/40 Window and fulfilling our mission so that the end will come. If Christians really want to see Jesus return they must send or be sent to these hostile Muslim nations. Another great thing that God is doing is putting zeal in the Chinese believers hearts to take the message back to Jerusalem and they are planning on evangelizing the Muslim nations they pass through as they go. I think the Western believers problem is fear. We don’t think bringing the Gospel to the Muslims is worth dying for! I’m so happy for your books and teachings because through them God has burned a desire in me to go as a missionary to Turkey. Imagine snatching Turks out of Satan’s hand in the very nation his empire will be established! Praise God for His wisdom and beauty to awaken us to this glorious challenge and His grace to burn our hearts with His love for the Muslim people.

    Just know that many of us are standing with you in prayer and many of us are being sent by the Father to share the beauty of His Son and the eternal mercy found in Him with those most hostile to Him and His people. I think the Jews being moved to jealousy will be by former Muslims giving up their lives to save Jewish people, their former enemies, in the name of Yeshua, their Messiah. Risking their lives to preach Christ to the Jews and being like Corrie Ten Boom and hiding the Jews during Jacobs Trouble. Let us pray that God would soften the hearts of those Muslims that missionaries will soon be coming in contact with and pray that God would raise up forerunners who will give their lives to reap the harvest in the Middle East. The gates of hell will shake at our presence there.

    Bless you, my brother

    Joel Varner

  • Dan
    Posted at 12:41h, 20 August

    In my church, the leadership (pastors and bishops) and most of the laity believe that Islam is just about the same as Christianity. They have fallen for the Muslim deception that they believe in the same God that Christians do and believe in Jesus too. I am just about an outcast for trying to get my church to see the truth!

  • Marcus Dorsey
    Posted at 01:29h, 21 August

    The main Biblical definition of a false prophet is the one who says that “you will have peace” when calamity is coming:

    “They keep saying to those who despise Me, ‘The LORD has said, “You will have peace”‘; And as for everyone who walks in the stubbornness of his own heart, They say, ‘Calamity will not come upon you.’ —Jer 23:17

  • I'm a nobody
    Posted at 19:13h, 21 August

    🙂

  • Nathan Jones
    Posted at 22:00h, 21 August

    You make a good point that we here at Lamb & Lion have long made – that most of the Islamic world does live outside of the Middle East (see http://www.lamblion.com/articles/articles_tribulation1.php). When the Antichrist makes a peace treaty with Israel, we read in the Second Seal Judgment that he then brings war on the earth, killing a fourth of the world’s population. We believe that will be against the rest of the Islamic world, for the Antichrist can’t have the world worshipping Satan through himself with other competing monotheistic religions, and we know by the Fifth Seal Judgment that he’s persecuting the Tribulation Saints and then the Jews (Rev. 6 & 12).

    Does Islam have the technology the West has to destroy a fourth of the world?

    You agree that the Islamic mentality to retake Jerusalem is rooted in their belief that once a territory is taken it must remain under Allah’s control? Have the entire Middle East and Russia destroyed supernaturally… what would the remaining Muslims then believe? That Alla is all powerful? That Allah annihilated his own people? That Allah couldn’t stand up to the “godless” Jews? No, they’d naturally lose faith.

    The world soon will not look a thing like it does now geo-politically after the Rapture. Big changes are coming.

  • Joel
    Posted at 23:19h, 21 August

    Nathan,

    Thanks for your comments. Curiously, have you read my article concerning Egypt’s absence from Psalm 83? Would you tend to agree or disagree? What about southern Iraq? Just curious.

    http://archives.joelstrumpet.com/?p=3731

    Also, being that you believe the entire Middle East is immanently about to be decimated, or “reduced to ashes” as David says, what would you counsel someone who was presently planning on going to say, Lebanon or Northern Iraq, with their family to serve as missionaries? Would you warn them that the whole area was about to be reduced to ashes, or would you encourage them to go?

    Blessings

  • Joel Varner
    Posted at 02:36h, 22 August

    Nathan, Muslims have continuously lost wars against the Jews. They haven’t lost faith. They believe they must become more fervent in their dedication to Islam and strive harder in Jihad. Also, I would encourage you to read Jesus’ chronology of the last days before His return and see where the Lord Himself places the timing of the rapture. Circle every time He says the word “then” as a sequential indicator. Also, read what Paul says about the timing in 1st and 2nd Thessolonians. Just read the Scriptures and let them speak for themselves.

  • Rapture Forums
    Posted at 03:48h, 22 August

    Joel,
    I’m not sure that from reading Dr. Reagan’s article and from reading the Bible that everyone in our camp believes that Islam is about to be “imminently” defeated and nothing remain as you stated. There are likely to be remnants of all pagan religions until the mid-point of the tribulation. I think there maybe some misunderstanding here. Let me try to explain my understanding.

    Dr. Reagan said in his article:

    “In other words, I believe God is going to use the Antichrist as His hammer of wrath to destroy Islam.”

    Right now Islam is dominant in the Middle East and in the four other south Asia countries that you guys listed. I can’t remember them right off hand, so bear with me here. It is late at night. LOL

    I think what we are trying to say is that Islam in the Middle East (and as a whole) is about to undergo a very painful neutering process. With the results of Psalm 83 and especially Ezekiel 38-39 we see that God says “the eyes of many nations will know I am the Lord” will take place.

    I think once Islam’s followers see the devastating results of the wars we believe could be on the horizon they are going to have second thoughts about Islam.

    These people (Islamists) could even end up being many of the “to many to number” martyrs of Revelation 7 who became believers after the rapture and start of the tribulation. The Bible says, regardless of whether it is Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc., that the Antichrist is by the middle of the tribulation going to demand to be worshiped as God. Satan isn’t going to give a flip about any of these other pagan religions, he only cares about himself being worshiped. That’s the main thing he has wanted all this time.

    In my opinion he won’t have any need for all the other religions anymore. So in the end, all the pagan religions are going to probably go by the wayside including Islam.

    At least that is the way I see it. I believe Islam’s rise today is for the fulfillment of God’s plan for prophecy and for the fulfillment of all things. This includes allowing him to reveal himself again to the world and especially to Israel, etc. JMHO.

    I hope that helps some.

    God bless.

  • Joel
    Posted at 09:33h, 22 August

    Chris,

    Thanks for your comments. I’m glad that you recognize that there are many varying opinions among brothers and that you are open to the idea that Islam may not be imminently defeated with nothing remaining. Obviously, others would disagree. As your friend Sean has written, “Islam is soon to become extinct”. And of course, David has, since writing that article, also used much stronger language such as “reduced to ashes,” “annihilation,” etc. Of course, I believe Islam will be eliminated completely as well. But I believe that Jesus will carry this out at the conclusion of the Great Tribulation. Regardless as to what position one takes here, my hope is that it will be taught in such a way as to encourage missionary activity and not in a way that could demotivate anyone from fulfilling the Great Commission among the Muslims of the Middle East.

    Within the prophetic imagination of every prophecy teacher or student, there is the need to figure out what to do with Muslims. Because they would only follow another Muslim, they must either be removed from the picture or be added among those who will be persecuted alongside Jews and Christians. I see them as being among the persecutors and not the persecuted.

    For those who began with the idea that the AC would be a non-Muslim, there became the need to develop a mechanism, or mechanisms whereby we could eliminate Muslims from the picture. Ezekiel 38, 39 and now Psalm 83 have become the primary texts where some have found such mechanisms. Many have embraced this view, seeing it as a way to resolve the tension.

    Despite having great respect for those many men over the past 100 years or so years who have held this view, in submitting to the Scriptures I have never been able to reconcile Ezekiel 38, 39 as concluding at any time other than the return of Jesus.

    The reasons are legion, but one passage, as you pointed out, is the fact that as a direct result of the destruction of Gog and his hoards, all of the gentile nations will come to know the LORD:

    “I will send fire on Magog and on those who dwell securely in the coastlands, and they shall know that I am the Lord . . . And the nations (Gentiles) shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel” (Ezekiel 39:6–7)

    How do you reconcile the contradiction that this is supposed to take place at a moment immediately before the Antichrist will gather these very same nations to follow himself in his blasphemy of YHVH and persecution of God’s people globally? How do you reconcile the contradiction that the LORD says that He will not allow His name to be blasphemed anymore, form that day forward, just before the greatest blasphemer in human history arises, leading a global movement of blasphemers:

    And my holy name I will make known… I will not let my holy name be profaned anymore.” (39:7)

    And of course, it is not merely the Gentile nations that come to know the LORD, but also the whole house of Israel:

    So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from, that day forward. (Ezekiel 39:22)

    But we all know that the national salvation of Israel happens when Jesus returns, when they look upon the one they had pierced who comes in the clouds. While some try to diminish the impact of these statements by simply claiming that some gentiles and some Jews will make mere intellectual ascent to the fact that YHVH is the God of Israel, but they will not actually “Know” Him. They will not be filled with His Spirit. But wait, that is not what the text says:

    “And I will not hide my face anymore from them, when I pour out my Spirit upon the house of Israel, declares the Lord God” (Ezekiel 39:29 )

    Yet again, this is supposed to happen before they are actually saved? And how can it be said that they will dwell securely forevermore just before the coming of the Antichrist?

    “They shall forget their shame and all the treachery they have practiced against me, when they dwell securely in their land with none to make them afraid . . . I will leave none of them remaining among the nations anymore” (Ezekiel 39:26, 28)

    This is supposed to happen before Jerusalem is trodden underfoot by the Antichrist for 42 months? Just before many Jews are taken as captives to the surrounding nations? You may believe this, and that’s fine, but for me, this is all a fundamental contradiction that I cannot reconcile with the Scriptures.

    But this is only a very small part of why I cannot reconcile Ezekiel 38, 39 with the view that it concludes anywhere other than at the end of the Great Tribulation and the return of Jesus. Again, if you would like, I would be happy to send you my newest book which lays this out in great detail. Dave Hunt also takes this view by the way. This has always been the Jewish position as well. The idea that Gog Magog is a preliminary event is a relatively new idea within the Church.

    Blessings

  • Joel
    Posted at 21:46h, 22 August

    Hi Nathan,

    Thanks for your submission. I actually do thoroughly dismantle each of the points you raise in my newest book, demonstrating beyond any doubt that Gog is the Antichrist. As I said, if you would be open to reading it, I would happily send a copy along. If you would be willing to publicly discuss or debate your position concerning Gog of Magog, I would certainly welcome such an event. I am quite sure we could arrange it. To date, despite the multiple invitations, no one is willing to do defend this position. In light of the vast implications with regard to missions to Muslims, I think such a discussion needs to be had.

    In the mean time, you did not respond to the previous questions I asked you. Did you see those questions? I am curious as to your thoughts there.

    Blessings

  • Rapture Forums
    Posted at 23:12h, 22 August

    Joel,
    I’ll try to answer your questions below. Sorry for the formatting as I had to use ” ” to separate your comments and mine. God bless.

    “Regardless as to what position one takes here, my hope is that it will be taught in such a way as to encourage missionary activity and not in a way that could demotivate anyone from fulfilling the Great Commission among the Muslims of the Middle East.”

    I agree. We certainly need to witness to the lost all over the world including Muslims. We need to take the Gospel of Jesus Christ throughout the world and to every living creature. 🙂

    “Within the prophetic imagination of every prophecy teacher or student, there is the need to figure out what to do with Muslims. Because they would only follow another Muslim, they must either be removed from the picture or be added among those who will be persecuted alongside Jews and Christians.”

    I believe they will be persecuted just like anyone else. Jews are not going to follow a muslim messiah figure anymore than a muslim is going to follow a non-muslim. This is where things get changed in the coming wars and God once again reveals himself. Once he shows himself again he will be changing a lot of people’s minds, not just Muslims, but Hindus, Buddhists, every pagan religion under the sun, etc. This is why in Revelation 7 it says that a great multitude will come to Christ. Especially after the rapture. No more fence sitters so to speak. People will be either for God or against God in the tribulation period.

    “Despite having great respect for those many men over the past 100 years or so years who have held this view, in submitting to the Scriptures I have never been able to reconcile Ezekiel 38, 39 as concluding at any time other than the return of Jesus.”

    Actually it is not very hard. You just have to put away the mindset of a preconceived idea of a muslim Antichrist and look at the larger picture of the scriptures. Ezekiel 38-39 is not Armageddon nor could it happen near the end of the tribulation period. Why? Because of a whole bunch of things. Just a few of which are:

    1. Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 38-39 is about certain countries (coalition) coming to invade Israel. Armageddon is about the whole world being against Israel.
    2. The weapons of Ezekiel 38-39 are used for fuel for 7 years, which is not possible during the MK as God will be providing everything we need. He will provide everything we need on the newly renovated earth.
    3. The bodies require 7 months to be buried. The MK starts with a newly renovated earth, not people being buried for 7 months.
    4. Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 38-39 talks of what is described as nuclear weapons clean up, again this would not be necessary in a newly renovated earth.
    5. The armies of Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 38-39 are destroyed in the mountains of Israel likely on the border. In Armageddon the enemies are destroyed in the plains of Meggido.
    6. In Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 38-39 the armies are destroyed supernaturally by God using his classic tools of fire, brimstone, hailstones, etc. At Armageddon the Lord will defeat his enemies with his Word.

    There’s other reasons as well. The bottom line is that Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 38-39 is not Armageddon, nor does it occur anywhere near the end of the 7 year tribulation period.

    “How do you reconcile the contradiction that this is supposed to take place at a moment immediately before the Antichrist will gather these very same nations to follow himself in his blasphemy of YHVH and persecution of God’s people globally? How do you reconcile the contradiction that the LORD says that He will not allow His name to be blasphemed anymore, form that day forward, just before the greatest blasphemer in human history arises, leading a global movement of blasphemers:

    And of course, it is not merely the Gentile nations that come to know the LORD, but also the whole house of Israel”

    The key here is that “the Lord” is God, NOT Jesus Christ. The Jews won’t recognize Jesus Christ until the end of Revelation “when they see the one that they pierced and mourn”. You have to remember here that we are talking about OT prophecies and this is the same wording that is used throughout the OT to refer to God, not Jesus. Jesus never enters the picture by name until the NT. So once we realize that Ezekiel 38-39 is talking about God, not Jesus, then your problems go away. NEVER does Ezekiel 38-39 refer to Jesus if you look at a concordance and see what words are being used. It is always for the “one true God”, not Jesus. NEVER does it say JESUS. Again, it says the Lord God (sometimes just Lord but that is still talking about God, not Jesus) which is the same word as the one used through out the OT.

    What Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 38-39 does is it “spiritually awakens the Jews once again to God. Right now the vast part of Israel is secular. But there are signs now that they are starting to become more religious. Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 38-39 will open their eyes that God is there again. Many Jews don’t believe in God and say things like “where was God during the holocaust”? Once God turns his eyes and focus back on Israel, the church is gone because God never focuses on both at the same time.

    “But we all know that the national salvation of Israel happens when Jesus returns, when they look upon the one they had pierced who comes in the clouds. While some try to diminish the impact of these statements by simply claiming that some gentiles and some Jews will make mere intellectual ascent to the fact that YHVH is the God of Israel, but they will not actually “Know” Him. They will not be filled with His Spirit. But wait, that is not what the text says:

    “And I will not hide my face anymore from them, when I pour out my Spirit upon the house of Israel, declares the Lord God” (Ezekiel 39:29 )”

    I just explained this in the comments right above here. Notice the scripture says Lord GOD, not Lord JESUS.

    “Yet again, this is supposed to happen before they are actually saved? And how can it be said that they will dwell securely forevermore just before the coming of the Antichrist? “They shall forget their shame and all the treachery they have practiced against me, when they dwell securely in their land with none to make them afraid . . . I will leave none of them remaining among the nations anymore” (Ezekiel 39:26, 28)”

    This is the national spiritual awakening that the Jews have at Ezekiel 38-39. This is why there will be a Temple in the tribulation period. The Jews will demand one after the see God supernaturally intervene in Ezekiel 38-39. And they will have one, the Bible says so whether Islam or the muslims like it or not. God’s word says it will happen!

    “The idea that Gog Magog is a preliminary event is a relatively new idea within the Church.”

    Actually it is not. The “new idea” around is the Muslim Antichrist which can’t be reconciled with the scriptures as it has been amply demonstrated by Sean, Nathan, Dr. Reagan, myself, and countless others.

    I hope all this helps you. It’s only a tip of the iceberg in defending our view.

    God bless.

  • Joel
    Posted at 00:10h, 23 August

    Chris,

    Thanks for your response. Again, I trust that if you would simply read the three chapters on Gog Magog in my latest book, you would reconsider your view and it would save much time here. It certainly would not hurt.

    I find that online conversations like this only tend to expand, and with my schedule, in order to keep it simple, let me address your response in small bites.

    You said: “the Lord” is God, NOT Jesus Christ”

    This is simply not true. Throughout the OT, God the Son is referred to as YHVH. Not just the Father. See Isaiah 6 as just one of hundreds of examples.

    You avoided answering the point I raised where the text says that after Gog Magog is destroyed, Israel will then “dwell securely in their land with none to make them afraid”

    According to your position, God tells them that will dwell securely with none to make them afraid immediately before the Antichrist invades and overruns them.

    Explain how is this not a problem for your position.

    You also avoided the point I raised where the text says that every single Jewish exile will return to the land of Israel forever. “I will leave none of them remaining among the nations anymore” Yet dozens of other texts state that when Israel is overrun by the Antichrist, many will be exiled. Zech 14:2 for instance says, “half of the city (will be) exiled”

    Explain how is this not a problem for your view.

    You also avoided the text stating that God says that He would no longer, from that day forward, allow His Holy name to be blasphemed. According to your view, God says that His name would no longer be blasphemed immediately before the Antichrist blasphemes His name and boasts against the Most High for 42 months along with a global following who will do the same.

    Explain how this is not a problem for your view.

    And thank you for not name calling this time and using a more Christ-like and civil tone. It is appreciated.

    Blessings!

  • Brothers in Christ
    Posted at 01:02h, 23 August

    When I was a new believer, I went to men to teach me the Bible. I was so caught up in the widely circulated view of so many (the view held by Rapture Forums, Lamblion, etc) that I was disgusted by any other.

    I thought it was heresy and would not even read one word for fear of being ‘infected’ by their words. While absorbing all written material on the subject, I continually read the Bible and prayed to God for understanding. One day I read a Bible answer by Jack Kelley where he had mentioned a Mahdi, a figure I had been unaware of.

    After an exhausting research on the subject my eyes were open. I then went to find if any other person had discovered the similarities. To my delight, I discovered a Joel Richardson.

    While I don’t believe all things he writes, most of his research is Bible proven. His understanding of the ‘end times’ is in agreement with my own, though obviously unpopular.

    The Bible is not for private interpretation, that is why it is important for debate between “camps”. Lamblion, etc would be good to openly discuss ideas as church leaders because whether you like it or not, you are teachers to many.

    I apologize to any I may have offended in earlier posts (Sorry to Chris, rapture forums). Most was for a shock to enable a real discussion. It was born of love, not hate. I love my brothers-in-Christ and only wish to be reconciled, together, to Jesus.

  • Rapture Forums
    Posted at 02:20h, 23 August

    Well golly gee whiz, Joel. Is this the ole “win the discussion by asking a ton of questions” tactic? LOL

    I’ll be a good sport and answer these questions, then I’m gonna leave you to peddle your “theory” as you wish since you never would answer ANY of my points. And I think it’s because you can’t answer any of them or at least won’t try because you might find out you are wrong. And that of course has to be avoided at all costs so you can sell more books. That isn’t the way to dialogue properly Joel.

    Here we go!!

    “Thanks for your response. Again, I trust that if you would simply read the three chapters on Gog Magog in my latest book, you would reconsider your view and it would save much time here. It certainly would not hurt. I find that online conversations like this only tend to expand, and with my schedule, in order to keep it simple, let me address your response in small bites.”

    With all due respect, what you are presenting is nothing new to me as I have your “fans” coming to my forums bringing this stuff every now and then. It has all been refuted time and time again. I see from one of your comments that you think Gog is the Antichrist. That is absolutely not possible. Gog (leader of Russia) is buried with his hordes in the mountains of Israel, the Antichrist is NEVER buried. He’s killed, but NEVER buried. He’s then raised from the dead (Bible never says he is buried see Isaiah 14:20) and then thrown ALIVE into the Lake of Fire.

    With my schedule of a 40 hour a week full-time job, 3-4 hours I spend updating my site every day, etc. I just don’t have time in the day to read everyone’s books. I’ve got people mailing me books regularly to read and I just don’t have time for it. If I read a book it needs to be the Bible. 🙂

    “This is simply not true. Throughout the OT, God the Son is referred to as YHVH. Not just the Father. See Isaiah 6 as just one of hundreds of examples.”

    Yes, I’m afraid it is true. Every instance of “Lord God” or “God” in Ezekiel 38-39 according to the Strong’s Concordance is for God the Father. Words like Jehovah, Elohim, etc. used for “the one true God”. Not one single instance of it being for Jesus or “Son of God”. Find me one instance in Ezekiel 38-39 where the concordance says it is “Jesus” or “Son of God” for that word. Find one, just one. I’ll save you the time, it’s not there because I’ve looked. I’m sorry but you are wrong. This alone destroys a huge bit of your “Islamic paradigm” theory.

    “You avoided answering the point I raised where the text says that after Gog Magog is destroyed, Israel will then “dwell securely in their land with none to make them afraid” According to your position, God tells them that will dwell securely with none to make them afraid immediately before the Antichrist invades and overruns them. Explain how is this not a problem for your position.”

    Dr. Arnold Frutchenbaum, who by the way is Jewish and knows the language well, says that “dwell securely” can mean “living in confidence” and would refer to the current state of Israel which is the strongest military in the Middle East. Although it is harassed by a rocket here and there, the vast majority of Israel lives without bars, gates, walls, etc. He says it describes the current state of Israel perfectly. Between the defeat of Gog/Magog and the start of the tribulation period, they will “dwell safely”. But once the tribulation starts, no one in the world lives safely as God’s wrath is poured out on unbelieving Israel and unrepentant sinners.

    “You also avoided the point I raised where the text says that every single Jewish exile will return to the land of Israel forever. “I will leave none of them remaining among the nations anymore” Yet dozens of other texts state that when Israel is overrun by the Antichrist, many will be exiled. Zech 14:2 for instance says, “half of the city (will be) exiled” Explain how is this not a problem for your view.”

    There’s a difference Joel between the “land of Israel” and the “city” which is Jerusalem. Can you see it?

    “You also avoided the text stating that God says that He would no longer, from that day forward, allow His Holy name to be blasphemed. According to your view, God says that His name would no longer be blasphemed immediately before the Antichrist blasphemes His name and boast against the Most High for 42 months along with a global following who will do the same. Explain how this is not a problem for your view.”

    I think this would refer to the Jews blaspheming his name again. After the supernatural destruction of the invading forces from an otherwise certain defeat, I’d think that the 90% who were non-religious will probably join the 10% who were religious. LOL They will have seen the mighty hand of the Lord deliver them and will want to resume animal sacrifices and the way things were in the OT. As the text says, they will know that he is the “Lord God”. The context is on the Jews in Israel, not on the world in my honest opinion.

    Take care. God bless. 🙂

  • Joel
    Posted at 09:47h, 23 August

    Chris,

    Thanks again for your response. I can fully relate to your busy schedule. In fact, I am temporarily violating my rule not to dialogue online. I also work full time, have four kids, another soon. Plus the writing, traveling, teaching, training etc. This is why I keep offering you a free copy of my book. Its simply a way of not having to rewrite a new book every time someone like yourself has questions or objections that are already thoroughly refuted.

    So for the sake of brevity, let’s just touch on a couple of your misunderstandings.

    First, your claim that Antichrist is not buried is based on a common misreading of Isaiah 14. It does not say he will not be buried at all, rather that he will not be buried as other kings, in his royal tomb. I address this misunderstanding in detail in my book. If you read Isaiah 14 carefully, and perhaps consult a few commentaries, I think you will finally see that the passage is saying that while Kings have their royal tombs, this king, “the King of Babylon”, will not receive such honor. Instead, he will be buried in a mass grave and covered with other dead bodies. Thats what it means when it say “clothed with the slain”:

    “All the kings of the nations lie in glory, Each in his own tomb. But you have been cast out of your tomb like a rejected branch, clothed with the slain who are pierced with a sword, who go down to the stones of the pit Like a trampled corpse.” —Isaiah 14:18,19

    Now, this question is very important as it will reveal where much of your confusion lies: If there was passage which showed that God was physically in the Land of Israel, would this be God the Father or Jesus?

    And lastly, I said: “You also avoided the point I raised where the text says that every single Jewish exile will return to the land of Israel forever. “I will leave none of them remaining among the nations anymore” Yet dozens of other texts state that when Israel is overrun by the Antichrist, many will be exiled. Zech 14:2 for instance says, “half of the city (will be) exiled” Explain how is this not a problem for your view.”

    Then you said: “There’s a difference Joel between the “land of Israel” and the “city” which is Jerusalem. Can you see it?”

    Yes Chris, Jerusalem is part of Israel. That doesn’t solve your problem. I could show several other passages which say that there will be many exiles from Israel during the Antichrist’s reign. You still haven’t answered the question.

    Bless you Chris. Iron sharpens iron. I for one am grateful for anyone who loves the word of God and submits to its truths. Blessings

  • Brothers in Christ
    Posted at 12:29h, 23 August

    Chris, Rapture Forums

    Please don’t tear me apart, I am asking a genuine question. Can you explain the Lord God and Lord Jesus comments?
    Do you suggest the Lord God is for Jews and the Lord Jesus is for Christians? I don’t understand. Do you think the church has replaced Israel, or that it has been grafted onto it?

    Joel’s responses to your questions are all in his book, the complimentary one you are too busy to read. Even if you think it’s garbage, at least you could understand what visitors to your site are talking about.

    Also, please show me (in the Bible) where Gog is called the leader of Russia. Or as someone once said,
    “Find one, just one. I’ll save you the time, it’s not there because I’ve looked. I’m sorry but you are wrong.” This alone destroys a huge bit of your “European paradigm” theory.

    God Bless

  • mike in Tennessee
    Posted at 15:38h, 23 August

    The first thing everyone needs to pray for is eyes to see and ears to hear. The good ole boy {mod edit} theology that the church gets wisked away and gets 50 yard line seats in heaven to watch the world go thru a tribulation is going to send more milktoast christians to hell that you’re willing to admit. We’ll see if you be counted worthy to be saved in the end because without holiness NO MAN SHALL SEE GOD! Wake up church. Try reading your bible for yourself instead of trusting pastor weakstick to tell what he thinks

  • Rapture Forums
    Posted at 03:28h, 24 August

    Joel,
    If you want people to take you seriously you’re gonna have to start making sense! Your “answer” on the Isaiah 14:20 verse was pretty pathetic and so horribly wrong!!

    “First, your claim that Antichrist is not buried is based on a common misreading of Isaiah 14. It does not say he will not be buried at all, rather that he will not be buried as other kings, in his royal tomb. I address this misunderstanding in detail in my book. If you read Isaiah 14 carefully, and perhaps consult a few commentaries, I think you will finally see that the passage is saying that while Kings have their royal tombs, this king, “the King of Babylon”, will not receive such honor. Instead, he will be buried in a mass grave and covered with other dead bodies. Thats what it means when it say “clothed with the slain”: “All the kings of the nations lie in glory, Each in his own tomb. But you have been cast out of your tomb like a rejected branch, clothed with the slain who are pierced with a sword, who go down to the stones of the pit Like a trampled corpse.” —Isaiah 14:18,19”

    Absolutely nonsense!! As sherman T. Potter would say “monkey muffins”. Tell you what Joel, let’s read a “real” book! Let’s try Dr. Arnold Frutchenbaum’s “Footsteps of the Messiah” and get the real scoop on what these verses say. After all the man is a Jewish Christian who knows the scriptures much better than either you or I know them. Here’s what he says about Isaiah 14:16-21:

    “Many will be able to view the body of the Antichrist and will stare in utter disbelief that he died so suddenly and easily, considering he had shaken the kingdoms of the world and the earth trembled in his presence (vv.16-17). While lesser kings are buried in pompous sepulchers (v.18), not so the Antichrist, whose body will be trampled by the fleeing feet of his own armies (v.19). In fact, his body will never be buried at all (v.20) for reasons to be discussed in the next chapter. His entire family will be destroyed so that they can not try to follow in their father’s footsteps and attempt to rule the world (v.21).”

    This is a correct rendering of the verses, Joel. Perhaps you can learn something from Dr. Frutchenbaum by ordering his book?! In fact, I’ll even “give you as a complimentary gift” my own personal copy of it. It’s a highly recommended book on Rapture Forums.

    And lastly, I said: “You also avoided the point I raised where the text says that every single Jewish exile will return to the land of Israel forever. “I will leave none of them remaining among the nations anymore” Yet dozens of other texts state that when Israel is overrun by the Antichrist, many will be exiled. Zech 14:2 for instance says, “half of the city (will be) exiled” Explain how is this not a problem for your view.”

    Then you said: “There’s a difference Joel between the “land of Israel” and the “city” which is Jerusalem. Can you see it?”

    Yes Chris, Jerusalem is part of Israel. That doesn’t solve your problem. I could show several other passages which say that there will be many exiles from Israel during the Antichrist’s reign. You still haven’t answered the question.”

    Yes, “Joel” I answered it very well and the fact is you have no response to it except to repeat the question already answered. I really have to add that this “snake swallowing his own tale” response you gave was really “pathetic” Joel!!

    Blessings.

  • Rapture Forums
    Posted at 03:34h, 24 August

    BIC,
    I’m sorry but I don’t have time to repeat myself again. Go back and re-read what I wrote and no I don’t believe in replacement theology.

    Why don’t you do the same thing I suggested to Joel and read a “real” book. Try Dr. Arnold Frutchenbaum’s “Footsteps of the Messiah” and get the real scoop on what the Bible says about the end times. After all the man is a highly educated Jewish Christian scholar who knows the scriptures much better than either you or I know them.

    Happy reading!!

    God bless.

  • Rapture Forums
    Posted at 05:03h, 24 August

    Oh no, it looks like “Joel” is going to “punk out” on me and not approve a major post showing all the contrasts and differences between Ezekiel 38-39 and Armageddon that blows a moon size hole in his “Islamic Antichrist” theory.

    Boy, that is such a low blow on trying to “find the truth” that Joel talks about so much. He really, really doesn’t want to talk about those differences does he?? Well, that’s OK, I was told you didn’t approve someone else’s list of contrasts either. I wasn’t expecting mine to be approved either. LOL

    I think Sean was right, if this got out all the demands for “refunds” from this “swiss cheese” book of Joels would bankrupt him. Oh well, maybe Joel will decide one day to seek the truth and repent of his errors!!

  • Joel Varner
    Posted at 07:12h, 24 August

    Rapture Forums,

    If Gog is not the Antichrist then explain this verse…

    Ezekiel 38:17 NET

    “‘This is what the sovereign Lord says: Are you the one of whom I spoke in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel, who prophesied in those days that I would bring you against them?”

    The Lord is referencing Gog in this prophecy. Now where are all the prophecies about this non-Antichrist Gog in the Old Covenant writings? What prophets of Israel spoke about some vague leader of Russia who will come out of nowhere and attack Israel along with the nations the Bible says will align themselves with the Antichrist?

    The fact of the matter is that many Christians are reading the Bible for themselves and letting the Scriptures speak for themselves which is causing them to abandon the European Antichrist theory. It is also giving them a zeal to proclaim Christ to the Muslim nations.

    Also, check out a Bible atlas and see where Biblical scholars place the land of Magog. Strangely, they all seem to place it in Turkey. It’s only prophecy teachers that put Magog in Russia. But again, even with your theory only a small percentage of Muslims would be defeated and it would not affect the belief of the vast majority of Muslims worldwide. Just like the wars in the 40’s and the war in 1967 didn’t make them lose faith when Israel destroyed the Muslim nations who attacked them. Muslim nations constantly lose wars against Israel and yet there are still Muslims.

    And by the way, differentiating between Lord and Jesus in that verse is extremely mind boggling. Why would God the Father do something that wouldn’t reveal His Son, the source of salvation for the people He is protecting? It would be absolutely counter-productive to what Israel needs.

    But seriously, read Joel’s book. He answers all the questions you are bringing up and doesn’t rely on a bunch of prophecy teachers plus one scholar, as you seem to be doing. You’re just showing your purposeful, self-inflicted ignorance to the subject by not considering his viewpoint by reading his book, which he wants to give you for free. You’re hurting yourself and your paradigm when readers see your unwillingness to interact with the book.

    But back to the initial question. Where did the prophets of Israel speak of this leader from Russia?

  • Brothers in Christ
    Posted at 12:35h, 24 August

    Chris,

    You’ve convinced me. Even though I find that God’s word contradicts all of your theology, it must be true. After all, so many people teach it, including the highly educated Jewish Christian scholar who knows the scriptures much better than either you or I know them, Dr. Arnold Frutchenbaum.

    You’ve also highlighted that I am uneducated and therefore, too dumb to understand the Bible as it is clearly written. You were right to help me see how much of a fool I am.

    Thank you for helping me see the light, as it were. I guess the only thing left to do is to burn all these “fake” books (like Mideast Beast) and place a call to Dr. Richard Dawkins.

    Again, thank you for helping me become an atheist.

    God bless (?)

  • Perry Brown
    Posted at 18:10h, 24 August

    Chris (rapture forums) and Sean Osborne,

    If you both do not like Joel’s understanding of end times, please just go your own way. If you believe he has a wrong interpretation of Bible prophecy, write all you want about him and how wrong and deceptive you think he is on your own websites and forums. I would kindly ask you both to leave Joel’s website for those who are really interested in what he has to say.

    By how you both have been writing and the words you both have used these last two weeks on Joel’s site, it’s quite obvious you are not trying to discuss or argue in a very kindly manner. No words that you will say will move Joel from his convictions, and also, I can see that none of Joel’s words can convince you both.

    I am glad Joel opened his posts for comments again, and would not like for him to close them again. Interaction and healthy discussion is very good for the increase of knowledge between people.

    Perry Brown

  • Joel Varner
    Posted at 19:29h, 24 August

    Amen, Perry.

  • Joel
    Posted at 19:34h, 24 August

    Chris,

    I have genuinely tried to have a friendly discussion with you, brother to brother. I’ve treated both you and Sean with respect and honor. As much as I love discussing eschatology, and as much as I continue to welcome a debate with any knowledgeable teacher who doesn’t behave like a child, it has now become clear that this is not going to happen here. In light of your many consistently childish comments made here, as well as the outright hateful and abusive comments you’ve made on your own forums, there is no reason for any here to make efforts to fellowship with you. Any further comments from either of you will not be accepted.

  • Beth McElwain-Pressey
    Posted at 01:18h, 25 August

    Wow…this was quite a ‘tennis match’. The truth is that the ‘man of sin’ must be revealed. If it was apparent who he will be, we would not need to wait for this ‘revealing’ that Paul explained to the Thessalonians. i personally believe, because of all the scriptures that speak of the Assyrian, that he will be from the ancient lands of the Assyrian empire. As he conquers various peoples, he will take on additional titles, e.g Gog, KIng of Tyre, King of Babylon, etc. This does not conflict with Joel Richardson. However, we are all waiting for this. Jesus used the event, the arrival of the abomination that makes desolate standing where he ought not to be, as a signal that the time of Jacob’s trouble has arrived. Till then, there will continue to be many interpretations. We will know the specifics as time goes on. I don’t really know why I kept reading your posts to the end…guess I was hoping to read a peaceful resolution! It is okay to agree to disagree. Take Care Everyone

  • Jonas V.
    Posted at 13:33h, 25 August

    Rapture forums, you sound like a wolf in sheep’s clothing, so puffed up in pride. You are not fooling God. By the way you approach the discussion with such a quarrelsome spirit, don’t expect your teaching to have any blessing at all. You are deluding yourself if you think God is pleased. Maybe Satan, but definitely not God. You are close to cursing Joel here. Remember we are not debating salvation or the divinity of Christ, so you have no reason to be so hyper and all that, as if souls are at stake for having different eschatology than yours. Check your spirit friend. Grow up. Be graceful and vent whatever righteous indignation you think you have in the right place.

  • Perry Brown
    Posted at 14:33h, 25 August

    Joel,

    What many people don’t realize is that the final and last pre-millennial battle, the battle for Jerusalem in the land of Israel, most commonly known as Armageddon, at the end of the tribulation, is not a war waged by the Antichrist and the nations and peoples aligned with him to destroy the Israeli government or military or try to wipe out the Jews, as they have been doing the previously 3 ½ years, but rather an attempt to destroy and kill the Lamb (Revelation 17:12-14; 16:12-14; 19:11-21; Psalm 2). The Antichrist will have been engaging war against Israel, Jews and Christians, as well as other nations, during 3 ½ years. He will do so until he finishes shattering the power of the holy people (Daniel 12:7). At the end of the tribulation (or end of the second half of 3 ½ years) there is no need to gather all or many nations and armies from the world in the land of Israel to completely destroy and annihilate the Jews and Christians. This gathering is to destroy Jesus and His armies that are on white horses (Rev 17:14; 19:11, 14).

    Many people get confused about the “Armageddon” battle at the end of the tribulation. There is yes a war campaign that will at least last 3 ½ years to kill an annihilate Israel and the Jews and Christians, but at the end, the Antichrist, after seemingly won this war campaign, will then engage war against this Man, a Jewish Man that has been “traveling” around the globe in the air (clouds) catching up His followers (rapture) and then landing on the earth (somewhere in the middle-east), marching up on a white horse with armies also on white horses and literally waging war with nations aligned with him, to finally get to Jerusalem and be defeated by Him and liberate the Jews that are in the city. This is the “Armageddon” battle. This Jewish Man is the King of Kings, Lord of Lords, and will reign forever and ever.

    The Antichrist will need demonic power (Rev 16:13-14) to convince the nations and kings that it is doable and necessary to kill this Jewish Man. That’s why he gathers the nations to try to destroy Him, and not to final KO the Jews.

    Within many prophecy circles people do not understand this, and come up with some strange ideas about the last and final battle. In conjunction with many other eschatological systems of thought, people the try to separate what cannot be separated, for example, Ezekiel 38,39 with Revelation 19:11-21 and many more “Armageddon” passages.

    Perry Brown

  • Joel Varner
    Posted at 17:27h, 25 August

    Awesome, Perry! Very good points.

  • David Roberts
    Posted at 22:20h, 25 August

    I wonder how many will be like Harold Camping once an Islamic leader gets sovereignty over ten Islamic nations and creates a seven year peace treaty with Israel. Will they still hold onto their erroneous beliefs then?

  • Perry Brown
    Posted at 12:33h, 26 August

    Another point that bring much confusing about the Ezek 38-39 passage and the pre-millennial final and last battle for Jerusalem, commonly known as “the Armageddon Battle”, is the fact that many believe that Ezek 38-39 prophecy as whole is related to only one single battle, either a pre-tribulational one or a end of tribulation one (“Armageddon”). In reality, the Gog coalition of nations invade Israel, plunder her, destroy her and occupy the Land over a period of time (in conjunction with other passages in Daniel and Revelation, will be 3 ½ years) until they are destroyed by Jesus at the so commonly called “Battle of Armageddon”.

    Ezek 38-39 prophecy encompasses a period of time, staring with the invasion of the Antichrist in Israel and occupying the Land at the middle point of the seven year prophetic period with the abomination of desolation and finishing at the final point of the seven year period, what the Bible calls “The Battle of the Great Day of God Almighty”.

    In essence, Ezek 38-39 is not a one battle or war prophecy, but rather an initial invasion (of course wars and battles will be involved in this invasion), and the pre-millennial last and final battle called “The Battle of the Great Day of God Almighty”.

    We will not get people to understand that Ezek 38-39 is not a pre-tribulational battle were Israel is miraculously delivered from the oppressors without Jesus physically being the One, without understanding the length application nature of the prophecy. It’s not about one single battle, but rather a series of events, starting with an invasion, persecution, many other wars, territory occupying that approaches the final crescendo, which is the Battle of the Great Day of God Almighty.

    This kind of length application nature is not unique to Ezek 38-39. Other passages are very well similar. Here are some: Zech 14:2-4; 12:2-4; Joel 3:1-4

    Zechariah 14:2-3 “2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, but the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.”

    When will the nations be gathered against Jerusalem to be taken, houses riffled and woman ravished? When will half of the city go into captivity, only to leave a remnant in the city? When does this all happen? It initiates at the invasion of Israel by the Antichrist and his hordes at the middle mark of the seven year period and continuing for the second half of the tribulation period (last 3 ½ years).

    When will the Lord go forth and fight those nations, as He fights in the day of THAT battle? When He returns, at the end of the tribulation, to wage war against His enemies (Rev 19:11-21). On that DAY and that BATTLE. Which one? The Battle of the Great Day of God Almighty.

    We can conclude that the gathering of nations mentioned in Zechariah 14:2 is not the last and final gathering to Jerusalem. Its not about only one single battle at the end, but rather a series of events that will crescendo at the battle of the end.

    Another interesting passage is Joel 3:1-4: “1 For behold, in those days and at that time, When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; And I will enter into judgment with them there On account of My people, My heritage Israel, Whom they have scattered among the nations; They have also divided up My land. 3 They have cast lots for My people, Have given a boy as payment for a harlot, And sold a girl for wine, that they may drink. 4 Indeed, what have you to do with Me, O Tyre and Sidon, and all the coasts of Philistia? Will you retaliate against Me? But if you retaliate against Me, Swiftly and speedily I will return your retaliation upon your own head; 5 Because you have taken My silver and My gold, And have carried into your temples My prized possessions.”

    When will God (in the Person of Jesus) will bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem? When will He gather the nations and bring them to the Valley of Jehoshaphat and enter judgment with them? This all happens at Jesus’s return, when He comes back to deliver Israel. The nations will be gathered by God to the valley of Jehoshaphat, which is the valley of Meggido, into the winepress only to be trampled by the Lord Jesus. This of course happens at the end of the tribulation (I would indicate just after the seven year period mark).

    When did these nations scatter God’s people, His heritage, Israel among the nations? When did they divide the Land? When did they cast lots for His people, the Jews? When did they give a boy as a payment for a harlot and a girl for a wine? When did Tyre and Sidon and all coast of Philistia retaliate against God? When did this all happen? This will happen initiating at the middle of the seven year period and lasting for three and half years until Jesus returns.

    There are more passages like these. A broad timeframe with a series of events, initiating at the time when the Antichrist “takes of his mask ff” and breaks his treaty with Israel, invading her and persecuting the Jews, and culminating at the return of the King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Jesus, the Anointed One.

    We need to understand the nature of the two gatherings to the Land of Israel to fully understand what the Bible is anticipating us regarding the end-times.

    Perry Brown

  • Joel
    Posted at 01:57h, 31 August

    Exactly.

  • cliff
    Posted at 07:08h, 03 September

    At Rapture Forums,
    According to Jude 5, Jesus saved a people [Jews] out of Egypt. How do you differentiate between God the Father and God the Son in light of this verse?

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