• Linda keyes
    Posted at 18:10h, 12 June

    You’ll never guess Joel,
    I was in town sharing with some muslim guys, and they tried to discredit the Bible because it teaches that the earth is flat!

    I felt quite down when I got home, as I didn’t know any one I could confidently direct any Muslim to if I needed.

    The very next day, I meet a whole group of people people giving out gospel tracts, two of them from Bulgaria! Amazingly they told me their Pastor and his wife are ex Muslims from Africa, I couldn’t believe it, and right in my back yard. Going to visit next week.

  • shawn brandom
    Posted at 18:30h, 12 June

    Thanks Joel, I have seen at least one person who was or still is a flat earth kind of person. Haven’t seen him for sometime now. One thing that I discovered when I was trying to understand this guy, was a book. urantia???huge book over 2000 pages. Somehow this book and flat earthers go together. I dunno how though. Thank you Brother!

  • Joel
    Posted at 19:24h, 12 June

    The Qur’an says that the Sun sets into a muddy swamp.

  • Linda keyes
    Posted at 03:07h, 13 June

    Excellent point Joel, I forgot that at the time.
    I did show him what scripture does say: earth is a Sphere, suspended on northing.

    Been trying to find copies of that Jerry matrix book , dear Muslim friend,(for one guy in particular) in the UK, but no bookshop can get it. I looked at your store, but see it’s part of a bundle.

    Would be helpfull to know where about five copies at a time could be purchased.

    Sorry to be a pain.

  • Joel
    Posted at 04:29h, 13 June

    Hi Linda,

    Yes, actually I’ve been meaning to do that on the store. Just send me an e-mail and I we can arrange that. [email protected]

  • Kaye Montell
    Posted at 05:58h, 13 June

    Sorry Joel I had posted on wrong underground episode. Thx Kaye

  • Kaye Montell
    Posted at 05:59h, 13 June

    Please do an episode on the false prophet I know you disagree but I think this Pope is a good fit for that. Thx Kaye

  • Leo Watson
    Posted at 09:43h, 13 June

    Thanks Joel,
    I enjoyed your rebuttal of the flat earth deception. I also enjoyed your rebuttal of the September 23 Sign non-sense. I was reading the morning in II Peter 3 about the people who would say, Where is the promise of His coming? This would be the result of the years of date setting that has plagued the Church in the last hundred years.

    What happened to Episode 71 from yesterday? I went to see more comments on it. It was gone.

    Keep up the the good work and thank you.
    Leo Watson

  • Joe T
    Posted at 10:21h, 13 June

    Hi Joel, why then do you believe in YEC since there’s also (supposedly) overwhelming scientific evidence against that? Are you being inconsistent? Thanks.

  • Katelyn Sawatzky
    Posted at 15:38h, 13 June

    Also… space photography… lol!! This is honestly the craziest thing I’ve ever heard.

  • Wading Across
    Posted at 18:58h, 13 June

    Yeah… As with many things, for all the correct proofs and truths, Flat Earthers have their own, and if the person is not one for being wrong, for accepting that they can be wrong, they’ll be very stone-headed about it, beating the issue like a dead horse until you give up out of exasperation, claiming victory.

    As a geographer and person who works with geospatial data daily, I work with taking data based on a real, round world and viewing it in a two dimensional “map”. There’s a lot of science, math, discovery and history behind cartography and GIS, with way too many people involved. We’re not hiding a flat Earth. Not to mention that it’s more incredulous and difficult to believe that idea of a round earth is a great global conspiracy by the very nature of geopolitics and history. Really… So, numerous nations, cultures and civilizations, many of whom have and do vociferously disagree with each other are all going to agree to dupe their people into believing that the Earth is round so that they can individually rule over them? Geopolitical entities can barely, rarely agree on anything for long, but we’re supposed to believe that the Communists decided to go along with the Czarists about the globe and the Communists would also agree with the West during the height of the Cold War? Or that North Korea or China in their vying for power over the West would agree with the West about the Earth?! Grand conspiracies are often far harder and convoluted to believe than the truth.

    Lastly, before I get off my soap box, from a technical point, the Earth can be proven round due to the fact of the numerous geographic coordinate systems used in order to accurately reflect each region when focused on that region.( yeah, that’s a mouthful). Yep, the Earth isn’t round, it isn’t really even a slight ellipse. It’s more like a slightly smooshed, lumpy orange. This is because of the internal forces of gravity affecting the crust differently across the globe. And then there’s tectonics. Australia has to update their coordinate system because over the past two or three decades their continent has shifted one meter.


  • Joel
    Posted at 10:25h, 14 June

    71 is still there. Hasn’t gone anywhere.


  • Joel
    Posted at 10:27h, 14 June


    I strongly lean toward YEC, though its possible that this is not the case. Not contradictory, as these are two completely different issues. I cannot observe the answer to that matter with my eyes one way or the other.

  • Leo Watson
    Posted at 17:24h, 14 June

    Joel, the last episode showing on The Underground link is episode 70.

  • Joel
    Posted at 19:48h, 14 June

    When I click the link it takes me to all of the latest Underground episodes, including #71. Alternatively jut click “The Underground” on the menu bar. If using an iPad or iPhone, click the horizontal lines and the menu list will open up. For just episode 71, click here:


  • Linda keyes
    Posted at 02:26h, 15 June

    No need to print this

    Like Leo, episode 71 doesn’t seem to be in the menu selection, but does on your YouTube channel.

  • Joel
    Posted at 09:50h, 15 June

    Its there for me.

    What does this link take you to?


  • Linda Keyes
    Posted at 10:28h, 15 June

    That link does take you to 71.

    But the first link goes to 70.

    When you go to menu /underground, it starts at 70.and 71 is not there.

  • Robin Carpenter
    Posted at 11:12h, 15 June

    Wow, Joel…as always, I appreciate your admonishment for us to be responsible in our study of the scriptures. There seems to be such an astounding lack of discernment in the body of Christ these days. Thank you for your faithfulness in serving our Lord!

  • Lynn Churchman
    Posted at 08:07h, 18 June

    Hi Joel,
    What would be the point in believing in a flat earth anyway?!
    The mind boggles…

  • marty runik
    Posted at 11:22h, 18 June

    I wasn’t aware this was something that lots of Christians were believing. It’s sad this kind of video even needs to be made.

  • Joel
    Posted at 21:45h, 19 June

    The Bible uses the language of what could be considered a flat earth model. Thus folks feel it necessary to accept this as scientific fact, when it is quite clearly not the case.

  • Elaine Fifield
    Posted at 20:32h, 20 June

    Thank you so much for posting this teaching. My son first heard about this theory about a year ago and seemed to be quite ‘taken’ with it. I found the whole idea ludicrous and disturbing. The next day as I was walking at sunset, I looked up at the moon and the Lord gave me one of those ‘aha’ moments when the thought came to me “the moon is round’!! I told him of my experience and that was the end of the discussion from my perspective, so I have no idea what he believes at this point. However, I do know that he values and respects you and your ministry so I just sent him the link.. I am praying that the truth you present in this video will resonate with him.

    I was quite shocked to learn that this is such a pervasive teaching in the Body of Christ right now. I have been a disciple of Jesus for 35 years now – since I was 33 years of age – and find it very alarming to see how much deception has invaded the Church in a relatively short period of time.

    Thanks again for all the work you do. You are an inspiration!!

  • Joel
    Posted at 11:03h, 21 June

    Hi Elaine,

    I could not agree more.

    Blessings, Joel

  • David Tutwiler
    Posted at 14:24h, 21 June

    Hi Joel,

    Thanks again for donating the books I requested to the Boise Rescue Mission.

    This is a question a bit off-topic so I hope it’s OK to ask.
    Your logo: Can you tell me how/where that eight pointed star with the crown of thorns inside came about?


  • Joel
    Posted at 16:10h, 21 June

    Hi David,

    I designed it. The eight pointed star of course is commonly used in Arabic tile work, architecture, and design. The crown of thorns obviously represents the King of the Jews and His heart for the Arab and Muslim world.

  • Taryn Daley
    Posted at 10:18h, 22 June

    The dwarves in CS Lewis’s “The Last Battle” come to mind. They sit imprisoned in the dark stable and finally choose to rely on their cunning over their faith and all they can decide is “the dwarves are for the dwarves.” This leads them to commit acts so ignorant that they are virtually suicidal, as all they possess to inform their cunning is the darkness by which they are immediately surrounded.

  • Fred Watkins
    Posted at 18:21h, 24 June

    Isaiah 40:22 it is he who sits above the CIRCLE of the earth

  • Joel
    Posted at 22:05h, 24 June

    Amen. The Lord sits above the circular sphere of the earth.

  • Stacy H
    Posted at 18:24h, 25 June

    Joel, is this part of the last days spirit of deception that the Bible talks about? I’ve always assumed that the deception was directly related to “even the elect” choosing to follow the AC, but perhaps it’s a broader deception of falling for false Gospels within the church, and things like going back to believing in a flat Earth?

    It’s just baffling to me, that this is even a thing, and within the church no less.

  • Joel
    Posted at 18:35h, 25 June

    I would not call this part of the actual end time deception per se. Its more of evidence of a general lack of discernment and a tendency of many Christians to be quick to embrace all matter of wild conspiracy theories. My concern is not merely with the bad witness it provides for the Church as the world looks at this and simply shakes it head, (quite legitimately) but also the level of accusation that is required to embrace such a view. One cannot be a flat farther without claiming that multiplied tens of thousands of Christians globally are involved in the single greatest purposeful cover up and deception.

  • shawn
    Posted at 21:57h, 25 June

    The defense of this “thing” is fierce Joel. I just read some comments on you tube on this video.. It seems to me by just the comments alone, in defense of flat earth that this “thing” has become a sort of “god” for those who fiercely defend it. Makes me wonder what’s next. One fella even said there is no such thing as space. HUH? Moon walks are a series of animated clips edited together and the list goes on…Love will win on this one Always does!!

  • Kirk
    Posted at 08:32h, 26 June

    Joel, thanks for the very explicit and common-sense way you present the case to easily debunk the flat-earth hypothesis. As a scientist and Christian myself who believes the Bible and is aware of literary poetry in the Bible, I am glad that you courageously sent this out. As you know, there is one other passage in the OT that clearly mentions the ‘circle of the earth’…Isaiah 40:22: “He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. While there is lyrical poetry in this verse too, e.g., people like grasshoppers, the heavens like a tent, etc., there appears to be a clear reference here to a circular object.

  • Joel
    Posted at 09:04h, 26 June

    Thanks Kirk,

    I actually wish I had been far more clear and specific on several of the points I made. Unfortunately, based on the kind of responses I have received thus far, I am doubtful it would have helped. Most have resorted to name calling, but no one has responded to a single point I’ve made. Its really depressing the degree to which folks are bound and determined to believe something that they can so easily observe is simply not real.


  • Chris Puhach
    Posted at 12:27h, 29 June

    Joel, I can only imagine the emotional and physical toll (& spiritual) that your ministry takes. Thank you for being faithful to the Lord! Be encouraged, there will be a reward! I just read your book Mystery Babylon. I found that it was very accessible, yet powerful. I’m finding that “non-readers” are more likely to finish it. Thank you for speaking at Southland Church’s School of Ministers awhile back (I lead it, and we met, but I do not expect you to remember everyone!). Many blessings!

  • Shanaz Sonia Watson
    Posted at 16:26h, 29 June

    I recommend checking out a thorough research on this issue. A man named Rob Skiba has a website called Testing the Globe and has done tremendous experiments and investigations. IE Isaiah uses TWO different words to describe a Circle and Ball by the way.

  • Joel
    Posted at 16:46h, 29 June

    Rob Skiba is deluding a lot of people. This issue could be solved very easily. All he has to do is take a flight with me from Sydney to Santiago.

  • Shanaz Sonia Watson
    Posted at 17:01h, 29 June

    Yes this is an excellent idea. Rob recently did a Balloon with camera attached experiment. It reached 18,000ft in altitude.

  • Joel
    Posted at 17:08h, 29 June

    I would be happy to issue a challenge to Rob Skiba. Travel with me on a direct flight from Sydney to Santiago or visa versa, If it takes 12-15 hours or so as would be the case with a spherical earth, then he will pay for all of our tickets and the whole cost of the trip and repent publicly for deceiving his listeners. If it takes closer to the 40+ hours it would take with a flat earth, I will pay for everything and repent. Pretty simple.


    Second, while we are in Sydney we can also film the clockwise rotation of the stars around the southern celestial pole and put this nonsense to rest.


  • Shanaz Sonia Watson
    Posted at 18:37h, 29 June

    Is there any way you can make this happen? To make him know of this challenge?

  • Joel
    Posted at 19:07h, 29 June

    I’ll tweet it to him directly.

  • Shanaz Sonia Watson
    Posted at 10:38h, 30 June

    He has a radio show and invites people to discuss various topics including this one. That would be a great start. I listened and watched his material. I noticed some of his shows he has covered so many topics. His recent presentation where he was invited to speak on testing the globe is extremely credible. My husband and I have also been doing some digging and research for past two years on this. ( Of course with scriptures as reference) it took me to re read the book of enoch. And its mentioned in there that the Sun and Moon are flat discs and of equal size.

  • Joel
    Posted at 15:43h, 30 June

    I’ve watched quite a few of Skiba’s videos and find very little that I would consider “credible.” As I’ve pointed out, the simple presence of short flights alone is enough to disprove the flat earth. I’ve yet to hear one flat-earth explanation for this that made any real sense. The presence of an observable southern celestial pole is another matter that cannot be explained by flat-earthers in a way that is not outright bizarre and illogical. Same thing with the ability of three people on South America, South Africa, and Australia to all observe the Southern cross at the same time while looking south. Flat earthers could so easily put this nonsense to rest with simple tests on matters like this, but instead they waste endless hours arguing about observable curvature of the earth. This is why I offered the short flight challenge specifically. There are several other very clear proofs that anyone can observe themselves. Sadly, when presented with solid proofs of a spherical earth, I find that most flat-earthers tend to quickly resort to circular logic, pseudo-science, faulty math, or outlandish conspiracy theories and outright character bashing. What I mean is that when solid evidence is provided, many will simply disregard the one offering proof as a “shill for NASA” or a Masonic devil worshipper or this kind of thing.

    To be clear, I don’t think all who believe in a flat earth are dumb. My point is not to insult people. The theory itself however, is very dumb, and unfortunately, believing it does require the suspension of some very basic critical thinking.

    Finally, the Book of Enoch, though very interesting, is not Scripture for a reason. Obviously the moon is spherical and not a flat disk. I’ve taken high resolution photographs of the moon and it is quite easy to observe that it’s spherical. The shadow patterns on it’s many craters make it very easy for anyone to see that it is most certainly not a flat disk.

    Here are a couple of good articles that address the issue of language in the Bible and the flat earth:


  • shawn
    Posted at 14:26h, 01 July

    I have been thinking about this “flat earth” “teaching?” or “doctrine” if you will, and the following is my summary of the issue.
    Very simply put, the teaching on flat earth is, in my opinion highly arrogant, in effect it is mankind once again telling the creator “No god this is the way you created earth.” Mankind has done this type of thing throughout history, without a doubt. We always tend to go our own way, when we leave the authority of Scripture. It is the very same thinking that is behind supersessionism, when taking this foul doctrine to its logical conclusion,mankind is essentially telling our Lord, He is incapable of keeping His word. I believe this is a very dangerous course/path to take. In conclusion, the flat earth theory or however it is put forth, does not point to Messiah, does not support His coming Kingdom, instead it has brought much division and strife in the body of Christ. His word tells us to not lean on our own understanding, the reason being, is, if we do, we come up with nonsense such as the flat earth theory and other very strange belief systems. I have been reading a book by Adolph Saphir, The divine unity of Scripture, I love the way he writes, I think the following quote from his book is very appropriate for this thread. “When Jesus argues with satan,He says,”The son of perdition is lost,that the Scripture may be fulfilled”; and when He authorises the disciples and prepares them for their apostolic mission,He tells them that He entered through sufferings into glory, because it was so written.As it was written, so it happened,so it must be preached unto the world.So the testimony of Jesus concerning the whole Scripture is that it is the Word of God.”

    Run the race, fight the fight, endure to the end brothers and sisters, may His Word dwell in our hearts, that we may be of sound mind, studied up to show ourselves approved and that we might not sin against Him!!

  • David Tutwiler
    Posted at 22:43h, 04 July

    Any response from Rob Skiba?
    It might be that it will be impossible to book a direct flight from Sydney to Santiago.

  • Joel
    Posted at 14:14h, 05 July

    No response from Rob. I assure you, it is a regular flight.

  • David Tutwiler
    Posted at 18:31h, 05 July

    Qantas Air
    Flight# QF-28

  • Tim
    Posted at 15:29h, 25 July

    Isaiah 40:22 can not be used to claim that the Bible teaches a spherical earth. Ancient Near Easterners believed the earth was a flat DISC that floated on the water (the waters below), not a rectangular square, and that there was a dome (ie firmament), that held back the “waters above”. Although gates of heaven were sometimes opened to make it rain. The gods lived above the firmament in the heavens. So Isaiah 40:22 is almost certainly using that understanding of cosmology, just like Genesis 1 is.

    Isaiah wasn’t trying to improve the Israelites understanding of science though he was poetically expressing a truth about God in terms they would understand and the metaphor doesn’t change nor is the text any less inspired just because Isaiah and the people he spoke his message to didn’t have our scientific understanding. The God of the Bible is one that incarnated into human history and “speaks our language”, not one who requires us to completely understand the world like He does before he can reveal himself to us.

    It gives flat earthers ammo though when we deny that a flat earth worldview is reflected in Scripture. Too many people hold to the same errant way of reading Scripture that the flat earthers do but then try to defend that the Bible authors did, in fact, teach a spherical earth, which can easily be disproved once you study ANE cosmology and see the obvious use of that understanding expressed in Scripture.

    IMO the real thing at stake in the whole flat earth controversy is that the way Scripture has been filtered by an enlightenment worldview in much of Western Christianity is being exposed, and we need to learn to better read it in its original context.

  • Joel
    Posted at 21:07h, 25 July

    I agree that the Bible is not a scientific manual conveying facts regarding the spherical shape of the earth, but it is equally false to say as many do that, “the Bible teaches a flat earth.” Flat-earthers often drastically overstate what the Bible actually “teaches.” The fact is that as at times Scripture does uses the language common in the ANE world (which held to a flat domed earth), while at other times it simply uses poetic language, and other times it uses equivocal language. JP Holden has some very good articles on this topic:




  • Timothy Willett
    Posted at 18:05h, 26 July

    I wouldn’t say the Bible “teaches a flat earth” because understood in context no passage in the Bible is really trying to make a statement one way or the other about cosmology. But if you hold to Biblical inerrancy the way it is commonly used (for example in the article you reference from creation.com about the firmament, that it is “the ultimate source of knowledge” and thus doesn’t even contain a scientific inaccuracy) then you would have to say the Bible “teaches a flat earth”.

    If you compare Genesis 1 to other ANE creation accounts, for example, I think you will easily find that “the firmament”, the “waters above”, etc. all reflect an ANE understanding of a flat earth (as well as the “gates of heaven opening up” in the flood account.

    Genesis 1 (and actually much of Genesis), though was never meant to be a scientific account of creation, it is instead a polemic against other ANE creation account, portraying the creation in the manner of an ANE temple dedication ceremony with humans being the image of God placed in the temple as the last act of creation. It’s trying to challenge ANE understanding of who God is, who humans are, and what they were created for. It’s not trying to challenge their scientific understanding, nor answer the type of questions that are debated in the evolution vs creation debates on the age of the earth and “how it was created” (though of course, it would challenge the idea that we came from a random unguided process).

    Here’s a link that shows the worldview most of the Biblical authors had in mind when they were writing:

  • Randy
    Posted at 22:08h, 18 May

    I just watched your program on TV on his word where you attacked Christian people that believe the word of God I for one have been a lot of places in the world and done a lot of experiments on if the world is flat or not for one I read my Bible I lived in Muskegon Michigan for 15 years on a clear day I can see Chicago cross the lake the people tell me that’s impossible but I’m not the only one that is seen it you’re telling me dad I don’t see it why would you tell me not to believe what IC I don’t understand you’re telling me to repent from what I actually see with my eyes that science says is impossible because the world is round if it was I wouldn’t be able to see Chicago a crossed the lake science says it’s impossible

  • Joel
    Posted at 03:54h, 19 May


    I did not “attack” anyone. I explained logically why the flat earth cannot be true. I used several observations to prove this.

    As for what you observed, first, let me ask you this: Why cannot you see Chicago every day? Allow me to explain. There are two kinds of mirages (inferior or superior) caused by surface heat or cold as it interacts with the air, which is at a different temperature. When this happens, light waves bend, giving the appearance of things being higher or lower. It’s an optical illusion. It commonly happens in deserts. We also commonly see this on hot roads in the summer, where the road appears to disappear on the horizon or appears to have water on it. Alternately, the mirage effect can have the opposite effect if the heat/cold scenario is reversed. This is how you saw Chicago. This is why your ability to see Chicago only happens rarely at certain times of the year. Probably Spring or Fall. This is all a well known, and scientifically proven fact. Google mirage and study this phenomena. It’s fascinating. Science does not say it is impossible. It proves why it is possible.

    Now, explain to me, if the earth is flat how someone standing on the southern tips of Africa, South America, and Australia all see the southern cross. The only way this is possible, is if the earth is a globe. I could go on with examples as to why the earth cannot be flat, but I’ve already done that.

    Be blessed.

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