While recently visiting northern Iraq, just miles from the Iranian border, I sat down to discuss what I call the “Consistent Futurist” interpretation of Daniel 8. If this interpretation is correct, then it may very well hold the key to what comes next in the Middle East.
116 Responses
Hi Joel,
Amen brother; its great to see you making videos on this topic. Its been a lonely path and burden for the last decade or so where it felt like I was the only one teaching Daniel 8’s applicability (the consistent futurist view) to our near future as I wrote up in my book Daniel Revisited. You will always occupy a special place in my heart for I couldn’t have written my book about Daniel 7/8 that you read, if you hadn’t written about the Islamic Antichrist theory for me to read.
I thank God that He has led you and others like Nelson to come alongside, for this interpretation is way too important to the church to be missed.
God is raising and using teachers with different styles and voices to best catch the ear of the church.
I look forward to what God may have us all do in the months and years ahead, watching, and discussing and making the most of the opportunity presented by Iran’s invasion (i.e. the Second Signpost), and the remaining events. And this for the sake of prophetic evangelism, and presenting as you say “profound apologetics”, so the church can learn and in turn be a light to the world during this dark time to come soon.
Blessings in Christ,
Mark Davidson
Joel: Well done video; very insightful and compelling.
Many believe the Iran nuclear negotiations, if indications of the emerging Obama team strategy are correct, will lead to an arms race as Sunni powers work to counter the Iranian bomb with a Sunni bomb. Do you foresee alliances between stronger Sunni territories such as Saudi Arabia and Turkey as a result? At one point, it seemed Erdogan supported Iranian nuclear development. Was this a false flag?
Israel retains the trump card with respect to armed intervention against Iranian power, which they used in a similar manner against Iraq. Should Israel act out of self defense interests, how do you see the Iranians reacting and can they use that as a catalyst for expanded control in the region?
Thanks,
Chris
Mark Davidson smiled when he saw this video…:)
Blessings!
Thank you for sharing. I am so grateful that God has raised up teachers like you in the days we are in. When you hear truth it just makes sense:-) What do you think about the 70 weeks of Daniel being paused at 69 weeks and an indefinite number of years passing before the 70th week being the 7 year tribulation. I know a lot of prophecy teachers say this. This doesn’t make sense to me and I was wondering what your take on this is.
Thank you, Joel! This is very helpful! I look forward to more of these teachings.
Joel;
I tend to agree with you. I am glad the Lord put it on your heart to clarify your struggles with the older interpretations. If the shoe doesn’t fit it doesn’t fit. Praying for you…that your message and ministry will continue to be a light to those who have followed the red herring of Europe. Thanks so much for taking the time to teach this as you are beginning to see it. Is the book Daniel Revisited a good place to start with a more in depth look at this? I purchased it but didn’t track with it so well when I read it but now understand better the issue. Safe travels and may your message spread quickly as the Lord leads you to these precious believers who find themselves in the most precarious of places. I am sure you message will help them see more clearly although I am certain you find their faith to be rock solid already! We greave hearing nearly every day hearing about their plight.. they are precious brothers and sisters.
Thank you Joel,please more of this video to help us understand and if you don’t mind to make a section in your site for podcast
Joel, I agree with your assessment of the book of Daniel! What an opportunity to use this portion of the bible to bring in the harvest. Also, I watched your live stream from The Jim Bakker Show yesterday and can’t thank you enough for taking the message of the end time Islamic Antichrist message to a broader audience of the church. Pretty Gutsy for Jim to have you on his show. Again, Thanks for all of your hard work and steadfastness. Praying for you, your family. and team! Your Fellow Co-Laborer, Jeff. Lakeland,Fl.
Praise God for His perfect Word! Reading Mark Davidson’s book last winger confirmed what I had believed for years – that Dan. 8 (and 7 and 11) are indeed end-time fulfillments, with only shadows in history. When Iran invades and Turkey counterattacks, MANY will be looking to teachers like us and we had better be ready for that. May Yeshua continue to use you, Joel in mighty ways.
Christopher,
As I have said a few times, I still hold that Daniel 7 correlates to Daniel 2 and is a pan-historical prophecy rather than being primarily eschatological. I think there are a few fairly significant, if not insurmountable problems with the notion that it is an end time prophecy. But regardless, as Mark and I have discussed, even if only Daniel 8 is eschatological, then the same general scenario that he discusses in his book holds true. In my next book, I will discuss Daniel 11 as I agree that at least from very 21 on is an end time prophecy.
Blessings
I’ve been struggling with the problem of switching from past to future in the middle of this chapter as well. This presentation makes so much more sense. I suppose we’ll see what happens in the coming years. God bless for this video and the insight he is passing along through you. Love the new book too!
Joel I am a nobody in terms of scholarship compared to you and many others here, but let’s be careful not overlook the simplicity of Christ. Dan. 11:2-4 is the exact same scenario presented in chapter 8. Persia attacking, Javan retaliating, “mighty king” of the Turks, then his kingdom divided into 4 – then the AC after wars with Egypt etc. Same reason the Leopard has 4 heads and wings and he comes after the Persian Bear in chapter 7. Nothing but Love for you my Brother! And I echo what Mark said, I look forward to what God may have us all do in the months and years ahead. 🙂
Christopher,
I do not see Daniel 7 as presenting the same scenario as Daniel 8. For instance, I think it is a strain to make the four wings correlate to the four divisions. The divisions come later, whereas the wings are there from the onset. There are surely similarities between what we see in 7 and 8, but these are easily explained simply because the events that form the historical pattern bears a striking resemblance to the end time fulfillment. But if similarity is the basis of the futurist position, then it could just as easily be argued for the historical view simply by comparing Dan 7 to Dan 2. The toes and horns for example are an easy correlation.
My problem is that of the two primary arguments for a future interpretation, (“shall arise”) and (the other beasts being given an “extension of life”) neither hold up to scrutiny. First, the idea that “shall arise” conveys a clear future tense is simply true. It is not the case in the original Aramaic language. This was just an interpretive assumption.
But there are some huge problems with seeing these other empires as living on into the millennium. Daniel 2 tells us that Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece are all destroyed “at the same time,” as when the final beast system is destroyed. So this would be a clear contradiction to the notion that they would live on after the destruction of the fourth beast.
The futurist interpretation of Daniel 7 is also incompatible, in my opinion, with Revelation 13, which reveals that the final gruesome beast of Dan 7 with ten hours is a composite Lion-Babylon-Iraq, Bear-Persia-Iran, and Leopard-Yavan-Turkey/Greece. Yet the futurist view has the fourth beast being a Turkish alliance that is distinct and separate from the Lion (Iraq) and the Bear (Iran).
Seeing the beast of Revelation 13 as a composite Lion-Leopard-Bear (Turkey, Iraq, Iran) would align with what we see in Daniel 2, where all of the beast are destroyed “at the same time” by virtue of the fourth and final beast being destroyed. So again, the idea that the fourth beast could be destroyed, while the other three are given an extension of life would seem to me to be impossible. When the fourth beast is destroyed, all the others are destroyed. The reason for this is because the fourth beast is a conglomerate of all the others.
As always, I could be wrong. My view is most certainly not the end all in the least bit.
But again, as I Mark and I have talked about, so long as Daniel 8 is futurist, his general theory still holds true. In the end, there is little difference.
I hope this all makes sense.
Blessings,
Joel
Esther Newman- Certainly the 70 weeks prophecy requires some in-depth study to understand, and many have wrestled with the correct interpretation. However, the reality of two-part fulfillment of prophecy, with many intervening years between events, is a solid and established fact among conservative bible scholars. Here are two articles that may be of interest to you regarding this concept. The first is directly about the 70 weeks; the second is on another topic but it addresses this same time-gap principle of prophecy.
http://theissacharmandate.com/?p=239
http://theissacharmandate.com/?p=300
Joel, I realize I might be asking about the most difficult part of Daniel 8 as I can’t find in the bible similar historic events that might show what we are to expect when some of the host of heaven and of the stars are swept down.
Do you agree that this is the same event as in Revelation where after the war in heaven Satan and his angels are kicked out and fall to earth? And more importantly what are your thoughts, do you expect this will be an event that we will see in the natural, as in the world will actually see the angelic beings, or will it be in the spiritual realm as in we will notice it has happened because antichrist shows up and is empowered by them?
Also I hope you will do many more video’s as you seem to be one of the very few bible teachers who take the trouble of going into eschatology and prophetic history while at the same time being able to relate this to present time.
Thanks Joel for your thoughts on this. To be honest, I was one of those that had always considered the prophecy as having been partially fulfilled in history. But after your history lesson on what happened after Alexander the Great died, it appears there are significant problems with that view. This has caused me to rethink my position and I will certainly be keeping a watch on what occurs in the near future with Iran and Turkey.
I appreciate you taking the time to put together the video and look forward to future editions.
Robert,
YEs, I think it will be yet in the future, but invisible.
And God can open our eyes like the servant of Elisha to see Spiritual things.
Bonjour Joel,
Thank you for posting this video and for your insights. You have a gift to present things in a very simple way. Your approach is interesting and convincing.
I have one question: if the interpretation of Daniel 8 is yet future, and if Turkey invades Iran, would not it stand to reason that Iran will cease to be a proper nation ?
If this is so, how do you reconcile this fact with Ezekiel 38.5 which still lists Persia as part of the nations that will follow the antichrist in his end of time invasion of Israel?
Just curious!
Love, blessings and shalom from France,
FX
Hi FX,
I don’t see any problem there. The AC will conquer many nations. Egypt being one. But it remains its own entity. Persia is listed among the participants of the Gog coalition, whether as an independent or subjected nation, I do not know. But if I were to guess, I would say that Turkey would defeat them and establish some kind of puppet government. Similar to the present Iraqi government. They are merely a puppet of Iran.
Blessings brother.
Thanks Joel,
Merci for your reply!
Blessings,
FX
Joel,
Because you travel through the middle east a lot and obviously know a lot about Islam too, can you think of anything that would make a muslim worship a person and even a statue like it says in Revelation? Seeing what ISIS recently has done to that museum in Mosul, do you know of anything within Islam that would be an exception to their rules of not worshipping a human being or a statue built in it’s honour?
thank you so much for this teaching, I hope to hear more
I’m not convinced there will be a statue proper. Nor am I convinced it will be actual worship. Submission and bowing before is entirely sufficient to fulfill the meaning of proskeneo. The word there is the same as:
Rev. 3:9
The word for image, could be anything such as a flag. As far as it “speaking” I am not sure what that is speaking of.
Thanks for taking the time to expound on this precious undervalued portion of Scripture. It gives me confidence to have that weapon of knowledge in my arsenal.
Hi Joel,
Great Video, as always. Thank God for your life. Just one question, seems like you left out Daniel 8:14.
Meire,
Here is a recent article on the 2,300 evenings and mornings:
https://joelstrumpet.com/?p=7191
That was very interesting Joel.
was actually going over this passage with a friend Thursday just gone. I fully agree about Antiochus and the rev 12 connection. ( i am assuming that the taking of a third of the angels is satans original fall, and the war in heaven is His final expulsion from heaven.if not i am totally confused.)
I hope you wont despair at me, although i do see this as being futuristic, i cant fit Persia into fully future part, in the interpretation, Persia is only mentioned once, at this moment i see that as being to introduce Daniel to the third kingdom on the ch2 image.
I see the main emphasis being on the four that stand up, in the latter part of their kingdom v23, which i think will be the Seleucid empire, leaving a Time gap between conquering the Persians, and the latter part of their kingdom.
It has occurred to me that Daniel 8 and 11 may be saying that the Grecia on the ch2 image, may be the Seleucid empire, and does not have to include Greece/Macedonia as i thought.
Thank you for your efforts and sincerity of heart. Looking forward to reading
your book later this month.(im hoping that you touch on John 12v48)
This just in, Iran moving in the direction which will make Turkey respond in kind.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/iraqs-military-begins-campaign-to-reclaim-tikrit-1425287398
Shalom and blessings to you Joel.
James
This is wonderful teaching Joel. I loved the historic explanations of why the Antiochus foreshadowing was just that, a foreshadow. You have done the church a wonderful service presenting this in easily accessible video for mass sharing on the net.
And of course, I love the application portion.
Nelson
Hello Joel, thanks for a great video.
After seeing this I started again pondering the position of the Jewish people and I am asking my self again what should we do to prepare the Jewish people to anticipate coming prophetic events.
A major influence on our part of thinking and adjustment should in my view be two books that you recommended. I am taking about ‘the coming Bible prophecy reformation’ and ‘the controversy of Zion’.
In his book Rodrigo da Silva added a very interesting appendix called ‘How many tribes do the Jews represent’ by Jeff Booth. In short, as you probably know, Jeff argued that in a spiritual sense, although unaware of their current identity, the ten tribes are partly a major force within Christianity in accepting Yeshua as their Messiah contrary to the tribe of ‘Judah’. In my view I believe that this should have a major influence on how we interpret a book like Hosea and Isaiah chapters 40-66. In other words in a spiritual sense that when the prophets refer to ‘Israel’ this probably has strong implications for Christianity in both senses blessings and warnings. This also could mean that we have not always interpreted the scriptures right concerning ‘another defeat’ of the Jewish people. What is your perspective on this and how should Christianity/Judaism anticipate prophetic events, specific concerning the present Jewish state. Thanks in advance.
Matthew,
I disagree with the appendix. I do not think it should have been included in the book.
Joel, I am sorry to say so, but I am not pleased with comments without arguments, it does seem a bit arrogant and it only increases the difficulty in a proper understanding of the scriptures for your audience.
I just watched Netanyahu’s speech before Congress. It was like hearing Winston Churchill warn about the dangers of Nazism before WWII. I think it’s clear that his warning will be ignored also.
I concur that the empires of Daniel will all show up around the time of the end.
However, I don’t think the “consistent futurist” interpretation has a good explanation for why the Chaldean, Medo-Persian, Ionian, and Islamic empires hem so closely to scriptural descriptions.
Further, while I understand Daniel 8 specifically mentions a ‘western’ goat and a ram situated in Elam, it most be noted that under a consistent futurist approach, in the absence of looking to what has already come before (the Chaldean, Medo-Persian, Ionian, and Islamic empires), there are not a lot of guidelines for understanding who are the empires described by the Daniel 7 beast tableau and over which region shall these empires have domain. Others look to the empires of the past and to what has gone before to set forth the proposition that a forthcoming satanic empire will arise from the middle east (as opposed to the late, but recently popular notions that the final satanic empire would be American, European, or Russian). Using a consistent futurist approach seems to reject what has already come to pass due to an alleged failure to conform to scriptural predictions, and therefore the consistent futurist approach offers no identities to the winged lion, bear, four-headed leopard, and the terrifying fourth beast.
In other words, I would have the following questions for those who support a consistent futurist approach: 1). Which current/future kingdoms represent the goat, ram, winged lion, bear, four-headed leopard, and the terrifying fourth beast? 2). Provided that definitive answers are provided to Q#1, how do you know it from scripture? 3). How do you account for similarities between the Daniel prophecies and the Chaldean, Medo-Persian, Ionian, and Islamic empires? 4). Can it be said by reading Daniel that the final terrifying beast an Islamic kingdom?
I believe the scriptures “repeat” (for lack of a better word) and are not fully fulfilled until perfectly fulfilled. Thus, the above-mentioned ancient empires have already mirrored the last-days kingdoms in terms of domain, character, and actions. The ancient anti-Messiah empires are previews and prior fulfillment to serve as a guide-on to those of us in the latter times until prophecy is completely fulfilled, jot and tittle.
Shalom.
Dirk,
I do not take a futurist approach to Daniel 7 because I see no basis for doing so within the text. But I do take it with Daniel 8 because it is a straight forward reading of the text. That said, of course the events that transpired between Medo-Persia and Alexander and eventually Antiochus would set the historical type of what is to come. The distinction is that whereas the type only fulfills the prophecy in a loose manner, the future will conform precisely.
Hi Matthew,
Rodrigo Silva is a friend who I appreciate very much. He is a very humble brother and I agree with most of his thoughts. Which is why I endorsed his book. He himself has said that he wishes he did not include that appendix. Not because he disagrees per se with it, but because it may become a distraction from the overall subject of the book. But this is a fairly complicated matter that answering in a way that is sufficient would require a good couple hours to write. I understand that my comments were brief, but I usually assume a brief comment is better than nothing.
Please understand that I have five children and a family, work three jobs, and try my best to respond when I can. But the fact is that most often I do not. Please also understand that simply because I open this blog for comments, in no way does this obligate me to engage with everyone who comments here or desires to argue.
Rather than being understanding however, you are “not pleased” and call me “arrogant.” I’m sorry Matthew, but from my perspective, it is your response that was quite rude, insensitive and arrogant. I hope you will receive what I have said here.
Be blessed,
Joel
Awesome, you are on point, a man full of the Holy Spirit, im praying for your safety, keep up the good work! love you brother!
I have no word to express how much I appreciate your dedication and effort to provide your readers a in depth historical analysis of prophetic studies (books) and contextualize with current perspectives – you have the gift of teaching. I cannot believe you even took time to read my post and gave me the link about 2300 days/nights. May God bless and protect you, your wife and children abundantly.
Such amazing insights Joel – thank you for that awesome expounded teaching on Daniel 8. I was really gripped by what you shared, and the consistent futurist approach does makes the most sense of the passage.
I awoke at 3am last night (Australian time) and couldn’t get back to sleep, so I turned on the news just in time to hear Netanyahu’s speech to congress. What a great speech, very courageous, a man raised up ‘for such a time as this’. I could’t help think of the veracity of the Daniel 8 passage, when Netanyahu referred to Iran’s blatant aggression and “gobbling up surrounding nations”. What a clear foreshadowing & harbinger of this passage, I was struck by the grinding reality unfolding before our eyes. It calls us to be faithfully praying for the persecuted church in this region, as well as for Israel – Gods ancient people – that they would come to know their messiah and lord Jesus. Thanks again mate for sharing your calling and gifting with us, I know you are very busy, so it’s really appreciated. May God bless you and your family richly. Peace.
Matt
Joel,
Daniel 8:18 has a hidden truth in it that until now most did not understand. To refresh here it is…Dan 8:18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.
The verse before is where Gabriel tells Daniel the vision is for the time of the end. This verse then shows us and Daniel that Daniel is since long dead (asleep with his face to the earth) when it comes to pass. As you can see it comes to pass in the end when Daniel is touched and “stood up” (think resurrection). As you know, Joel, Daniel is told to go his way until the time of the end. (Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.) He is told he will “rest” (sleep) and then stand in the end. So you see this in 8:18.
Chapter 12 of Daniel begins with those who are resurrected from the dead, at the time of the end.
Chapter 8 verse 18 just shows us and Daniel that it will not happen in his lifetime, he will already be dead (sleep) a long time (deep sleep), but then will be touched and stood on his feet. Same as all those who are resurrected in the end who sleep in the dust of the earth awaiting the Lords return and call/shout and the Angels who come and gather them.
Mystery solved…enjoy!!!
Matthew
Wow brother. I am wondering how your life is? In the end times most peoples love will run cold. That is what we really need to fight. I would suggest getting on your knees and asking God to fill your heart with love. This takes a lot of humility and giving up on yourself being “right”.We need to see ourselves as in this fight together and reasoning together, not hurting each other. There is enough of that in this world. We are to lift up our teachers and not make it harder on them. I have been following Joel for quite sometime and I so appreciate his heart. It is why I believe God has given him such great insight and I think we can learn a lot from that a. Daniel humbled himself and prayed and that is when God moved.
Brad
Cathy,
Exactly. Excellent thoughts. Honr cannot separate the “time of the end” from literal resurrection of the dead.
Thank you so much for sharing on Daniel 8. Your view regarding “Yavan” and the area it could cover (wider than just Greece, Balkan States, West Turkey)was so very helpful. I have recommended your site and this particular video to a number of my friends and have received very positive replies about how helpful your Video is, and indeed your Website. Thank you also for your replies to comments which are also very helpful. May the Lord continue to give you insights and may He protect and guide you and your family.
Thanks Howard. Bless you!
Joel,
If the proper and primary meaning of the prophecies of Daniel indicate a prior historic (amazingly so) fulfillment, what warrant is there to interject a speculative future meaning? The prophecies contained within Daniel consistently lead to Messiah, Jesus Christ, and to the eternal kingdom of God he established.
Especially in the context of Christian Apologetics, evidential and historic fulfillment of the prophets is far more beneficial than an unfalsifiable and speculative eschatology.
For example, you posit that the little horn than grew out of the Greek empire must be the antichrist of the 21st century because the text does not allow for a historically accuratel interpretation. That is simply not the case. The “host” of the Lord’s people, the priesthood of the Jews at that time, were forced to convert to Hellenistic paganism or face death. Thus, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, is clearly the object of these verses and is a type of the AC to come during the time of the Roman Empire that first declared open hostility upon the new Christians. The little horn of Chapter 8 (Greek Empire) is not the same–but a type of the AC that would arise from–the 4th (Roman) empire. That is precisely what Jesus was referring to in the Olivet Discourse.
I don’t understand the arbitrary precommitment to a “Consistent Futurist” hermeneutic when the evidence clearly leads in a different direction. If 150 of 150 commentaries support the primary fulfillments of Daniel in a concise and spectacularly correct manner–that supports the glory and sovereignty of God evidentially through history–why insert speculative prophecies that are likely not to occur? The Christian Apologist should be armed with something more substantial.
Joel, thank you so much for your commitment to the cause of Christ and his kingdom!
Best regards in Christ,
Jeff
Jeffrey,
You misunderstand. The proper and primary meaning is not at all historical. Gabriel made it clear that it was not historical, but future, tied into the time of the end, the final period of indignation. Such statements are rather clear. Second, the events of history are far from amazingly accurate, as I show, they simply do not confirm to the criteria of the text. Antiochus did not cause the “stars” or the “host of heaven” to fall to the earth. Four horns did not emerge after Alexander died. Antiochus did not rule during the later period of the Seleucid Kingdom. There are no 2,300 evenings and days that a single commentator can tie into the reign of Antiochus.
The Olivet Discourse has not yet been fulfilled. Including Luke 21. https://joelstrumpet.com/?p=6920
If the resurrection of the dead has not yet happened, then the prophecy has not yet been fulfilled. Its actually quite simple. Will we submit to the interpretation of man or the divinely guided angel?
Blessings,
Joel
PLEASE Joel, make this new video from Iraq available to purchase. Thank you for your humble dedication to GOD’S WORD. I have pre-ordered your new book and can hardly wait to read it. Blessings and safety to you and family!
Hi Joel,
Awesome video! Do you have any idea how the four kings tie into the ten kings who are of one mind to give their kingdoms into the hands of the Antichrist?
Blessings in Yeshua!
Its hard to know whether “the three” are these first three segments that he takes, or if the three are Egypt, Cush and Put mentioned in Daniel 11. But once these three are taken, then it seems as though the other 7 give allegiance quite readily.
I hear you about the significance about Egypt, Cush and Put in the coming hour, but what I meant was this…
The conspicuous horn of the he-goat comes against Iran and succeeds.
Then this horn is broken and four conspicuous horns came up in place of him.
So after a leader from Ionian/the Turkish region comes against Iran,
he’s replaced by four leaders, and from one of them comes the Antichrist.
But just before the Antichrist emerges 10 kings first emerge to give their sovereignty, their lands over the Antichrist to lord over as their Caliph.
You know what I mean?
Yes, the ten are in existence prior to the little horn’s emergence, but I do not think they give their allegiance to him until after he subdues three. So the questions is, is this a reference to the three other segments of the former Turkish power, or are the three Egypt, Cush and Put which he will subdue, as referenced in Daniel 11. Depending on which of those two choices are the “three” will determine at what point the ten give their allegiance.
As you mention, the book of Daniel is perhaps the single most attacked book in the Bible. The synagogue has removed Daniel from the books of the Prophets, and placed it in the Writings (Psalms, Esther, etc.). This because it is so clear as to when the Messiah was to come: before the destruction of the second Temple.
So now the Church has till now dismissed its “for the time of the end” message, because it also represents a threat to certain biases or to the antichrist spirit that has come within the church to oppose the true gospel.
Thank-you for your clear, helpful, reasoned explanation. When these things begin to unfold and be more obvious, then like Jesus also said: “I have told you, so that when these things take place, you will know that I told you.”
Blessings,
Howard
Thanks for the reply Joel. Very interesting.
You said, “I do not think they give their allegiance to him until after he subdues three.” My current thoughts come from Revelation 17:12,17. Please do tell me if I’m missing something. I don’t want to be missing something major which changes everything.
“And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings, who have not yet received a kingdom, but they will receive authority as kings for one hour with the beast… …For God has put into their hearts to carry out his purpose and to make a unanimous decision and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.”
If we only had those two verses it sounds as if before the Antichrist rules, all ten kings have the same heart and goal with respect to the Antichrist in which they all simultaneously act together in one ‘hour’.
The chronology in Daniel 7:24 is:
1) ten kings will arise 2) Antichrist will arise after them 3) Antichrist will subdue three kings
But the bible is not always strictly chronological, but it’s still worth being sensitive to, unless another passages gives us reason to think differently.
But Daniel 8 says there is one king from Yavan/Ionian who attacks Iran, four kings take over from him, then ten kings at one hour voluntarily cede sovereignty to the Antichrist who comes from the four kings, granting him his Caliphate to rule, then if Daniel 7:24 is indeed chronological the Antichrist then subdues Egypt, Cush and Put Daniel 11:43.
I’m about to teach some youth about the period of history we’re about to enter, and I really want to have this as textual sensitive and sound as possible. And I just don’t want to be missing something essential.
God bless bro.
Your last video was so essential for the body to hear.
I’m going to give it to a pastor I know.
Keep this up, and no doubt, our Lord will say,
well done good and faithful servant.
In the love of Christ,
David.
Here’s an article today in the New York Times, “Iran Gains Influence in Iraq as Shiite Forces Fight ISIS”:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/06/world/middleeast/iran-gains-influence-in-iraq-as-shiite-forces-fight-isis.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1
Hi Joel,
I wanted to get your take on this. Typically, I learn something new whenever someone puts out a question like this. Daniel 9:25 is interpreted in various ways. Isaac Newton thought that it pointed to a Jubilee coming 49 years after the Jews return/rebuild (Strongs 7725) to Jerusalem. He also thought it referred to when the anointed one comes as a prince, as opposed to Christ’s first coming when he fulfilled the role of a suffering servant and prophet.
Israel re-captured Jerusalem on June 7, 1967. Using that as a start date and adding 49 years (of 360 days each or 17,640 days) works out to the Day of Atonement (which is the day when a Jubilee can be declared) this year, September 23. I find it hard to see such a convergence of dates as nothing more than a coincidence.
Personally, I don’t see how the 49 weeks from the word to return to/rebuild Jerusalem applies to the rebuilding. It seems that it has to be tied to the return of the Messiah. Jesus also links his yet-to-be-completed mission with the theme of a Jubilee in Isaiah 61. I’m aware that there are various interpretations of when exactly the order to rebuild/return Jerusalem actually occurred. People variously associate it with decrees issued by Cyrus, Darius, and Xerxes. As far as I can tell, Jerusalem wasn’t rebuilt within 49 years of the decrees from Cyrus, or Darius. I’m not sure that there is support for the premise that it took 49 years to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem from any of the decrees. Nehemiah 6:15 says the wall was completed in 52 days.
I guess the larger question is why the 69 years are divided into 7 year and 62 year periods? Is the 7 year period a foreshadowing of Messianic prophecy, or something else?
When “The Goat” (Turkey? Greece?)proceeds to meet the attacking Ram (Iran) would not such a scenario suggest this would position “The Goat as the “protector” of the Middle East? And by extension, the “protector” of Israel? Perhaps such a scenario will also be the event leading to a resulting peace covenant between the “Protecting” power and Israel?
I also meant to point out that “The Ten” may already exist if you check this link below….thoughts?
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/isis-ten-arab-nations-join-us-led-coalition-against-isis-1465106
@ Mark Davidson
I have a question for you after reading and studying your book, Daniel Revisited. You have mentioned that the visions of Daniel 7 and 8 match Revelation 6. My question to you is this. “Have you noticed that the “beginning of sorrows” spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 also have this same sequence? False Christ’s, wars, famines and pestilence which follow Revelation six’s first four seals? (All prewrathers know this and you don’t appear to be a prewrather so far as I could tell). You don’t mention this in your book so I was just wondering if you have seen this and if you have noticed it why didn’t you mention it? (just curious… that is all)
Jeffrey,
I apologize, but I simply do not have enough time to respond to such a lengthy post. We are simply in profound disagreement about far too many issues. I find the preterist interpretation to fail in a profound way on too many levels.
Be blessed.
Not a preterist, Joel, but thanks nonetheless.
Blessings,
Jeff
Sorry Jeff. I rushed that response off. Didn’t mean to use the word “profound” as I did, twice. Simply saying I disagreed would have been enough. Again, I apologize for my brevity. I hope you understand.
Blessings!
fascinating and terrifying times ahead. I believe the supernatural deception to come. The world already largely rejects the gospel. Imagine the rejection and persecution when “angels” from heaven come down testifying against Jesus and the Church..
“It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them.” DAN 8:10
“And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.” REV 12:9
“The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.” 2 THES 2:9-12
“No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.” 2 COR.11:14
“But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!” GAL 1:8
Greg, your 2/28/15 comments provided two links to Issachar Mandate. The articles (about Daniel’s 70 weeks, and demonstrable gaps in prophetic fulfillments in certain texts) were exceedingly instructive and helpful.
Joel, I love your God-given work. I’m continually learning from you and others like you.
Jesus is LORD, and He’s coming soon.
Which government agency are you working for “joel richardson”? The truth about who you really are will emerge.
Excellent teaching; nice to have something to share.
Reading through the comments…It’s been an awfully burdensome and lonely road for some…smh
Anyway, I know you’re so busy but I did have a quick question. Do you have any thoughts about an Iranian attack on Saudi Arabia (Isaiah 21?)…included in this Daniel 8 invasion?
Thanks!
Mudd,
We already know who you are, and we are watching you at this very moment.
Joel,
I personally agree with your assessment. If one simply looks behind the media reports and what the governments are saying about, the forces in the middle east are being controlled by primarily Turkey (Sunni) vs Iran (Shia). The Iranian twelvers want to create as much chaos as possible to bring the Mahdi. The Sunni simply want to rule.
I agree that Daniel 8 is yet to come. Thanks for sharing.
Thank you Joel for you humble offer of a clear futurist interpretation of this passage. I have often struggled with interpretations of this and other passages in Daniel, which do not quite fit. I believe we will see passages being fulfilled in the Middle East, and it will be an affirmation of the absolute truth of scripture. It is a clarion call to us to be bold in our proclamation of the gospel. I also believe it will be call to the hearts of many to respond to the gospel. It is an encouragement to me to be unafraid (I Peter 3:13-17)and be found ready!
In response to the questions and answers regarding the “70 weeks of Daniel”, I feel that some adjustment is needed, with all due respect to those who have gone before me.
King Cyrus is so important to God’s plan, that he was named long before he was born; his decree is the first thing that Ezra refers to in his own book; and the Old Testament ends with a reiteration of his decree!
Also a common mistake that continues to repeat itself is to take the 7+62=69 weeks as being consecutive, rather than noticing the preciseness of the inspired Scripture for making a difference: 7 weeks and 62 weeks, saying that after the 62 weeks (not after the 69 weeks!) Messiah would be cut off (killed).
–Dan 9:24-27 The death of Messiah was to be before the destruction of the second Temple, which occurred in 70AD
–70 7’s: days (Sabbaths); weeks (7 days each); years (Sabbatic and Jubilee) [Note: Gen 29:27-30 Jacob served Laban a “week” = 7 years]
–*7 + 62 weeks = 69 weeks = 483 years “counted” from the time of “the commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem” until His being “cut off”/death
*Different assumptions of chronology and dating cause discrepancies in determining the dates. It is clear from Scripture that the first of the seven weeks began with the decree of Cyrus, King of Persia, followed by a break of about 13 years before the decree was re-affirmed by Darius, and building of the Temple re-started, and of the city. (see Is 44:28 and Hag 1; 2:18; Ezra 6:1-4; Neh 2:1-8) With the break in the building project, the actual time from the initial decree by Cyrus would be closer to 500 years.
–2Chr 36:22-23; Ezra 1:1-4; 4:12; Hag 1:4 Cyrus gave the decree, which He claimed was from YHVH. He proclaimed a Jubilee, and the end of the first of the 7 “weeks”/49 years marked the beginning of the next Jubilee.
–Is 44:28; 45:1-13 Prophecies about Cyrus, the LORD’s anointed, before he was born! Cyrus would make the decree for the building of Jerusalem and for laying the foundation of the Temple, and proclaim liberty for the captivity of Israel.
–Ezra 6:1-14; Neh 2:1-8; Haggai a halt in the work, but Cyrus’ decree was confirmed by Artaxerxes
–The first 7 sevens, or 49 years, coincides with Nehemiah’s work to restore Jerusalem and the Temple service. There was a notable spiritual revival, which saw the cleansing of the Temple and the restoration of the Temple order and service. (Neh 7:1; 12:44; 13:9) After a ‘time-out’ of about 13 years, the ‘clock’ begins again for 62 more weeks. So the time of Yeshua’s final week and ‘cutting off’ (death) is after the 62 weeks, and not 69 uninterrupted weeks!
–7 x 7 = 49 years
7 x 62 = 434 years (400 yrs before birth of Jesus + His death in His 34th year of human life)
7 x 69 = 483 years
–The 70th “week of Daniel” is sometime after the death of Messiah, and also after the destruction of the second Temple and also of Jerusalem, and is ‘clocked’ from the confirming of a covenant by the antichrist with Israel back in the Land in the last days at the time of the end.
(For the full article, you can read it here):
http://streamsinthenegev.com/school-of-fish/eclectic-course-menu/time-of-messiah-yeshuas-first-coming/
For the year of Yeshua’s birth and death, you can read it here:
http://streamsinthenegev.com/school-of-fish/holy-daysappointed-times/sabbathshabbat/birth-death-and-good-friday-of-messiah-yeshua/
Small clarification: when I say that the Old Testament ends with a reiteration of Cyrus’ decree to the Jewish people, I am referring to the Hebrew Bible, the Tanach.
Also, in Isaiah 44:28, it is the LORD Himself who tells us that the decree of Cyrus includes both the Temple and the city of Jerusalem.
Shalom and rest in the full assurance of Christ’s once-for-all sacrifice to secure God’s full thoughts and intentions of His amazing plan!
also, it looks like Bibi is going to lose the election, and the liberal Labor party will take over Israel. That means Labor will almost certainly enter into a bad security deal with Obama, Iran and Hamas. Sounds like the beginnings of a false peace agreement and a compromised Israeli security posture.
“So the questions is, is this a reference to the three other segments of the former Turkish power, or are the three Egypt, Cush and Put which he will subdue, as referenced in Daniel 11.”
The scriptures are clear that 1). the three horns are in North Africa, 2). that Egypt will be in a state of rivalry with the Assyrian,3). that Israel will depend upon Egypt against the Assyrian, and 4). that Egypt will be brought in chains before the Antichrist.
What is the Scripture reference for your first point?
Video was compelling, Ran across this after watching it: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/charles-krauthammer-irans-emerging-empire/2015/01/22/c3098336-a269-11e4-903f-9f2faf7cd9fe_story.html
“What is the Scripture reference for your first point?”
The most direct references are in Daniel 11. The entire passage describes a war between the Assyrian (the North) and Northern Africa (the South). The chief verse being “He will gain control of the treasures of gold and silver and all the riches of Egypt, with the Libyans and Cushites[e] in submission.”
This message is repeated in Isaiah:
“3 Then the Lord said, “Just as my servant Isaiah has gone stripped and barefoot for three years, as a sign and portent against Egypt and Cush,[a] 4 so the king of Assyria will lead away stripped and barefoot the Egyptian captives and Cushite exiles, young and old, with buttocks bared—to Egypt’s shame. 5 Those who trusted in Cush and boasted in Egypt will be dismayed and put to shame. 6 In that day the people who live on this coast will say, ‘See what has happened to those we relied on, those we fled to for help and deliverance from the king of Assyria! How then can we escape?’”
As in Nahum 3, the Assyrian with the fatal head wound will invade, otherthrow, and enslave Northern Africa. As in Ezekiel 32, the King of Babylon will overthrow the armies of Egypt.
We know this refers to the end of time, as Ezekiel 30 tells us this will occur around the time of the day of the LORD:
“‘Wail and say,
“Alas for that day!”
3 For the day is near,
the day of the Lord is near—
a day of clouds,
a time of doom for the nations.
4 A sword will come against Egypt,
and anguish will come upon Cush.[a]
When the slain fall in Egypt,
her wealth will be carried away
and her foundations torn down.
5 Cush and Libya, Lydia and all Arabia, Kub and the people of the covenant land will fall by the sword along with Egypt.
I agree all that will happen, but why assume this is the “3” horns rather than the other 3 horns of Daniel 8? It could be either one, but you seem to be basing your conclusions on assumption. I think we need to be cautious here.
Hey Joel;
Are Canadians welcome to come on the trip to the Holy Land in November?
Only if they are good Canadians.
Hi Joel,
I was so very inspired by your recent visit on the Jim Bakker show. It was amazing. I just ordered some of your material and can’t wait to receive it and share it with my prayer group. Thank you, dear brother for your serious dedication to our Wonderful lord in these last days. We are upholding you and your family in prayer. Just reading through some of these posts and the wisdom here..I think of how incredibly awesome God’s Family really is!!!
Joel/Dirk: interesting discussion. Here’s how I put it together. First looking at Daniel 7:8 we see the horns are uprooted before the throne room scene in verses 9&10. Revelation quotes verse 10 in its throne room scene in Rev. 4 and 5. This and other similarities show them to be one and the same scene. This shows the 3 horns uprooted prior to the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week (before the seals are opened.)
Then shifting to Daniel 11 we know that the Antichrist invades Israel and desecrates the temple in verse 31. This is the midpoint of the 70th week so the uprooting of the horns must happen prior to this. Thus the horns must be uprooted between Dan. 11:21-31. We see the AC attacking Egypt twice in these verses but failing. So I doubt the three horns are from northern Africa. I favor a re-establishment of the Turkish empire that is split into 4 sub-nations.
I am not dogmatic about this but it seems to make the most sense to me. I favor Dan. 11:21-24 as the picture of this conquest.
Nelson
Well said Nelson. Great points.
” the horns must be uprooted between Dan. 11:21-31. We see the AC attacking Egypt twice in these verses but failing”
I see Antichrist attacking the King of the South (Egypt, as stated) and winning in Dan 11:15-17, and winning again in Dan 11:24-28.
“15 Then the king of the North will come and build up siege ramps and will capture a fortified city. The forces of the South will be powerless to resist; even their best troops will not have the strength to stand. 16 The invader will do as he pleases; no one will be able to stand against him. He will establish himself in the Beautiful Land and will have the power to destroy it. 17 He will determine to come with the might of his entire kingdom and will make an alliance with the king of the South. And he will give him a daughter in marriage in order to overthrow the kingdom, but his plans[c] will not succeed or help him.”
“24 When the richest provinces feel secure, he will invade them and will achieve what neither his fathers nor his forefathers did. He will distribute plunder, loot and wealth among his followers. He will plot the overthrow of fortresses—but only for a time. 25 With a large army he will stir up his strength and courage against the king of the South. The king of the South will wage war with a large and very powerful army, but he will not be able to stand because of the plots devised against him. 26 Those who eat from the king’s provisions will try to destroy him; his army will be swept away, and many will fall in battle. 27 The two kings, with their hearts bent on evil, will sit at the same table and lie to each other, but to no avail, because an end will still come at the appointed time. 28 The king of the North will return to his own country with great wealth, but his heart will be set against the holy covenant.”
Dirk,
Verses 15-17 are not talking about the AC. Antiochus / Antichrist is not introduced until verse 21.There is a clear transition between verses 20 and 21 to the vile person.
Nelson,
11:26 portrays a victory over Egypt of some degree. Then a second run against Egypt is seen in verse 30, but it doesn’t go as well as the last time because of the ships of Kittim / the West. So the latter references to Egypt’s full defeat (vv. 40-43), could either be a reiteration / recapitulation, or it could be a secondary, more full defeat. I reads more like a recapitulation. The more I ponder it, the more it seems that the three uprooted are three segments of the Turkish Empire. The problem with this is the fact that ten seem to be in place prior to the three being taken and as such, it makes it hard to identify at this point. Most ancient commentators, as I show in Mideast Beast held to the “3” of Daniel 7 as referring to Egypt, Cush and Put, (Hippolytus, Jerome, etc.) but I think a better more logical case can be made for the “3” referring to the 3 segments. Not only is it closer contextually in chapter 8, but a broader assessment of all the passages in question seem to point that way.
Could the shorter horn of the Persian ram represent the president, while the longer (more powerful?) represent the supreme leader, since this is the way their government is run right now?
The horns represent leaders/rulers, so it would be quite natural for this to be the case.
Joel
I don’t mean to do your head in, but if its ok can i share a thought in the ‘spirit of sharing together’ (on tip toes, smiley face) regarding the division of Alexanders kingdom, that you mentioned earlier to Christopher. Not seeing the same scenario as ch7V6.
A while back trying to work out who fought and killed who over what land almost broke my brain, so i gave up. The secular commentaries certainly showed more than four players.
Your comment bought all that back to me. So after much reading of the text again this week, this is my ‘humble’ thought:
I genuinely dont see a problem arising from seeing Dan7 and Dan8 as being the same. What stands out to me is the term ‘Notable’. That the term notable is used, i believe makes room for the more than the four players spoken of by the secular commentaries. However, after much fighting and a time period, out of all of them, there actually only arose four notable ones. The Seleucid district which eventually compassed Syria, turkey, Iraq ect becoming the most notable.
So that’s my thought, for what its worth.(smiley face). Obviously i agree that the little horn is the ac. Thank you. The Lord continue to Bless you.
Hi Joel;
A couple quick questions for you;
1_ Do you mind if I share the story about the young girl who evangelized to the cab driver in Egypt who was having dreams of Jesus at a speaking arrangement I am attending?
2) DO you know what year approx the eastern gate was closed up and for the exact purpose it was closed up?
OF course you can share that story. Not sure off the top of my head the year. Should be able to easily look that up. Blessings!
Hi Joel and fellow commentators.
What could you list as specific clearly agreed upon (shared by most prophets/scholars) as still outstanding future prophecies that we are not only awaiting, but realistically expecting soon? Especially in the light that so many others, of which the gathering of the Jews along with world wide apostasy, are already being fullfilled.
I suspect the building of the 3rd temple (and any acts flowing from it) would likely make the list. What also about other less well-known, but important and also clear, events should we expect?
Could you put a simple numbered list together?
Thanks, Anton (South-Africa)
Joel,
I just wanted you to know I finished watching all of your video (had to start and stop several times due to various constraints) and I thought it was very well presented and that you made a compelling argument. Although you skipped one controversial section in particular, its a section that is more speculative, and I respect that you were focusing on the plainer, more easily understood and interpreted sections. If indeed Chapter 8 is primarily/completely future it will become plain in time what the 2300 evenings and mornings mean.
Whatever you think about people like me who are firmly Premillennial but see as already fulfilled some of what is understood as future by others, I want you to know I continue to remain open and teachable, and I certainly appreciate your voice and contribution in this late hour before our Lord’s return.
Kurt
Hi Joel.
Just one point. Antiochus IV reign came at the time when the Seleucid empire was subordinate to Rome. That process of subordination began during his father’s rule.
So it was “The latter period of their rule”. Seleucid kings were merely titular rulers under Rome thereafter.
The Lord’s blessings
Phil.
Hi Joel,
Thank you for this thoughtful and compelling presentation. Very refreshing and what you say makes sense. Time will tell, but we may not have too long to wait with the speed at which events are moving in the Middle East.
What stuck me most was your reference to “prophetic evangelism”. I have been thinking recently along exactly these lines. My expectation is that many unbelievers may be more open to hearing the truth of Bible prophecy than a great many Christians whose commitment to false teachings such as “replacement theology” blinds them to what is currently going on. At least that is my experience in the UK. Would love to hear more from you on this.
Blessings,
Simon
I was saved through “prophetic evangelism” 34 years ago. I said to the person whom the Lord had placed there for me when my faith in man ran out: “I don’t think I can live 50 more years seeing the way the world is going, listening to these people talking about the things they talking about, and ‘this is it? This is it?!”
He said that I would not have to. I said, What do you mean, I won’t have to? He said, God has a plan, and Jesus Christ is coming back to make the world right. I said, How do you know. He said: Prophesies in the Bible and current events are coming together.
The next day every thing changed in a moment of time! Praise the Lord!
Joel,
I appreciate your heart before the Lord.
Have you written anything explaining your view of the Harlot Babylon of Revelation 17 in as much as it relates to the events of Daniel 8 and the greater Islamic Anti-Christ perspective?
I’m a pretty young guy so I don’t have too many years of study under my belt yet, but the greatest challenge for me has always been connecting these two prophetic realities and putting them on a timeline. I realize some questions will remain a mystery for the time being, but I guess I’m wondering if this is one of them.
Blessings,
Jeremy
I do not have anything concerning timing on Mystery Babylon, but I have two sessions on the general theme in my DVD Understanding the Times.
Joel,
Thanks for your effort to teach the Body of Christ. In your teaching on Daniel 8 you mentioned Greece’s/Javan eastern border (at some time) was the western portion of Turkey. I am curious if you could point me to some resources that has led you to that understanding. I really appreciate the consistent futurist perspective you presented. I can easily wrap my mind around Iran being the geographical “male ram” but having a more difficult time understanding “male goat”/Javan/Greece as Turkey. BTW have enjoyed your book on Mideast Beast and End Times Witness. I have long held to a Rome based 4th kingdom and love the challenge you have presented to dig into the scriptures.
Any of the more popular Evangelical Bible Atlases will show this. Holman Bible Atlas, Zondervan Bible Atlas, ESV Bible Atlas, IVP Bible Atlas etc., but even Wikipedia has some relevant introductory info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javan
Joel, I met you at Jim Bakkers Ready Now Expo & never have been more impressed with any Bible teacher. You have such a sweet humble spirit & knowledge of the scriptures & able to teach them so that they are reasonable & help us fit them into our present day events. I am the lady that met you as you had just arrived & had a brief conversation with you & said, “I hoped you could come to speak at ORU. Your teaching was the high light for me & I want to Thank You so much for the way you are laying down your life for the sake of the Kingdom. I plan to take your book to President Billy Wilson to ORU chapel tomorrow & give him some of your links to view . I hope it will work for you to come & speak & teach before school is out in early May. I will be following you & learning all I can. I will faithfully pray for you & your wife & children as you go out into the world & especially for your protection. Keep up the great work & may you walk in His special Blessing everyday. Blessings, Revis Gowan
Revis,
Thank you so much for all of your encouragement. Yes, if it works out, I would love to speak at ORU. Thanks so much for your prayers and encouragement. Bless you!
With it becoming apparent that the U.S./E.U. will do nothing to check Iranian hegemony, the Sunni Arab bear is awakening. The Kings of the South (Gulf states, Egypt, Jordan) are getting ready to create a joint military force to directly confront Iran and it’s Shiite satellites and proxies. A larger, regional conflagration looks increasingly likely.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/arabs-inch-closer-to-old-dream-of-joint-force/#ixzz3VZdvH73A
Watch and pray,
Gabe
Joel,
Many times in prophecy an initial fulfillment, or type, and then a final fulfillment, or type, is seen. Multiplicity of fulfillments is not unreasonable. This is what I see many times. However, I had not considered that Daniel 8 could have additional fulfillments, for it seemed historically to be “cut and dried”, as they say. Thank you for encouraging all of us to consider the possibilities. When I look at current events and consider the consistent futurist interpretation to Daniel 8, it causes me to consider/ponder/contemplate the alignment of the Sunni/Shia kingdoms into a “King of the North” and a “King of the South”. Very interesting indeed. We shall soon see, I believe, whether or not these things are as you/we surmise. I am persuaded, by your presentation, to agree with you. Our Elohim has things well in hand and will bring about his will in due time. Once the idol shepherd is revealed, we will have perfect clarity in our view of prophetic fulfillment. Many people it would seem, perceive prophecy as some sort of “divining rod” to predict the future. We both know that is not it’s purpose. YHWH had the prophets write down the visions so that when they came to pass, we could see His hand at work and know for certain, that He is in control. For there is no God like our God. He is the only true God. Praise His Name for His mercy endures forever. May Abba continue to Bless you and Keep you Brother. Shalom
On a related note, Erdogan continues his goose-stepping march toward a full-blown Turkish caliphocracy.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/articles/news/2015/03/turkey-gives-police-broad-powers-to-repress-dissent/
Gabe
Great job on Dan 8 and may God continue to bless your ministry – I came to this understanding about 6 years ago.
Having read Dan 8 hundreds of time one day while reading it verse by verse it just jumped off of the page when 5 times Daniel refers to it being an end days chapter in his interpretation – time of wrath – end days – time of the end or forms there of
Maybe the day will also soon come where we will also come to understand Dan 9 and the seventy sevens (3500 years) also and additionally being Seventy Jubilees from the time that Israel entered the land until they would recognize Christ as their Messiah
Joel:
Last night I was watching you on You Tube talking about the future Jewish Temple and the Dome of the Rock mosque. It occurred to me that this could be another sign pointing to an Islamic Antichrist. We know that the Antichrist will set himself up in the Temple. He could justify it by saying it is the site of the Dome of the Rock mosque. Has this ever occurred to you?
Joel, are you aware of a way to properly interpret the horns on the ram in our modern context? I can explain that imagery historically-speaking but I’m not aware of a modern equivalent in Iran, or at least, not that has appeared yet. Unless maybe it’s a alliance with the more ancient but weaker Shia territory of Iraq?
Gabe
Yes, good question. I would say the horns represent kings or rulers. Thus in the singular or prominent horn on the goat, we have Alexander. So I suppose the two, (if they be eschatological) would refer to the offices of President and Ayatollah. However, they both seem to have emerged together at the same time, after the fall of the Shah. Though one (Ayatollah) is certainly longer than the other, in that one has more actual power. Or perhaps it is something that will only make more sense in the future.
Ok, thanks. I actually had a similar thought about the bi-cameral system of theocratic/civilian rule.
There were actually 2 bi-cameral houses of parliament under the Shah that were established in the consitutional government after the 1906 revolution: a “National Consultive Assembly” and a Senate. After the revolution of ’79, the ayatollahs abolished the Senate and replaced it with the Guardian Council, but they kept the lower house as the basis of the civilian government, and today it’s know as the “Islamic Consultive Assembly.”
So IF the imagery is eschatological and IF we can interpret the horns based upon the current Iranian system (and I recognize those are big IF’s), then I can see how the 1906 assembly and civilian administration would be the smaller horn that rose up first and continued after the Islamic Revolution with the rise of the “big horn,” which could be the Guardian Council, including the Grand Ayatollah and Revolutionary Guards.
Gabe
Hi Joel.
Will we see a literal conquest by Iran of the middle east. Could it be possible that conquest is through proxies and ISIS may actually be Turkeys response to that?
Yes, Iran is using proxies. And yes, ISIS is Turkey’s proxy and her response. But I think the present proxy war is simply a precursor of the actual literal war to come.
Something interesting: Zechariah 9 contains the famous prophecy of Messiah coming to Israel on a donkey (v9). But the greater context is clearly eschatological. The judgment of multiple Middle Eastern nations is mentioned, culminating with vv 13b-14: “For I will stir up your sons, O Zion, against your sons, O Greece (Javan), and wield you like a warrior’s sword. Then the Lord will appear over them, and His arrow will go forth like lightning…” So you have the climactic judgment of Javan’s kingdom at the Lord’s return, not Rome.
Gabe
Exactly.
hi Joel,
Thanks so much for all you write and share. I hope you and your family are all well. It must be a very busy life.
I am unable to access this video as it says it needs a password. I’m happy to pay through Vimeo, or whatever I need to do but can’t figure it out. Any help would be appreciated.
Bless you Joel. And your wife and children.
Still hoping you visit Australia at some stage. 🙂
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5CgKivM7Sk
Thanks Joel. Just realised I have this on DVD. Blonde moment. 🙂