Three Scenarios of Unfolding Prophecy

I know that many of those who regularly read this blog have also read Hidden in Plain Sight By Mark Davidson. Mark blogs at Four Sign Posts. If you have read both Mark’s book and my latest book, Mideast Beast, then you are aware that we interpret Daniel 7 and 8 differently. In Mideast Beast, I interpret the four beasts of Daniel 7 as a reiteration of the four Kingdoms of Daniel 2. Mark interprets Daniel 7 to be speaking of four contemporaneous end-time nations. This approach, although a minority view, is also espoused by several other interpreters who I am aware of, such as G.H. Lang, Geoffrey R. King, David Pawson, Chris White, Charles Cooper, Hanoch Ben Keshet, Dr. Noah W. Hutchings, Dr. Henry M. Morris, and Irvin Baxter, Jr.

Concerning Daniel 8, in Mideast Beast, I interpret verses 3-22 as being fulfilled with the historical conflicts that took place between the Medo-Persian Empire (the ram) and the Alexandrian Greek Empire (the shaggy goat). But from verse 23 on, where it speaks of the “little horn”, I interpret this as ultimately fulfilled in Antichrist, of whom Antiochus IV Epiphanes was merely a historical shadow. Davidson understands all of Daniel 8 as speaking of future events and correlating to the 2nd and 3rd beasts of Daniel 7. He understands these to be Iran (the second beast) and Turkey (the third beast).

So, what do I think about Davidson’s scenario?

First let me say that I have over a hundred commentaries on the Book of Daniel and have worked through this book for some years now fairly extensively in my own private studies. The more I work through this profoundly important book, the more I realize how difficult certain some portions of it truly are. I am convinced that we must thus take a humble attitude as we seek to fully understand the revelations contained in this book. Let me also say that the world of end time prophecy is a world rife with opinions, pet-theories and often significant disagreements. While there are certainly some issues that I have very strong opinions concerning, there are several other issues that I am very open to reconsider. Daniel 7 and 8 are two such examples. So I am presently working through the possibility of a futurist interpretation of Daniel 7 and 8, and I do see some validity to this as the possible meaning of these chapters. But more than that, I am fascinated by the potential implications of this perspective. To be clear, I am not convinced, as this perspective is not without its own difficulties, but I am quite open to, and wrestling through this perspective. There are some aspects of Davidson’s interpretation that I do not agree with, such as his identification of the four seals / four horsemen of Revelation as correlating to the four beasts of Daniel 7. (After all, it would be impossible for any two prophecy teachers to fully agree with one another on everything!) Nevertheless, in light of the possible implications of these two chapters having future application, I want to describe three potential future scenarios for the region including Davidson’s rather fascinating theory (Scenario Three). To be clear, these are not the only possible scenarios, as we could certainly come up with several others. But based on my present understanding of prophecy, these three scenarios are the best candidates to see fulfillment in the days ahead. As always, God knows best.

Scenario One: Turkey continues to emerge as a regional leader, consolidating power over the northern swatch of the Middle East. Eventually a leader arises from this nation who will be revealed as the Antichrist. As a side note, many folks have asked me if I suspect or believe that Prime Minister Erdogan of Turkey could be the Antichrist. For the most part, I try to avoid directly speculating on such matters as I am well aware that such speculation can be dangerous for many reasons. Nevertheless, let me say quite clearly that while Erdogan certainly has many qualities that one would expect to see in the Antichrist, I think it is unlikely that he is the man. My reason for this is the Scriptural requirement that the Antichrist emerge as a “little horn” (Daniel 7:8, 8:9, 11:23). The Scriptures seem to indicate that the Antichrist will initially appear as an obscure and little-known leader who will rise up in the midst of ten other contemporary leaders. He is said to first usurp or uproot three others and then gain the allegiance of all ten. In light of this, I do not think that Erdogan could be said to be the Antichrist, as he is perhaps one of the most prominent leaders not only in the Middle East, but also the whole world. In my opinion, because of the requirement that the Antichrist emerge as a leader of little influence or prominence, it is unlikely the Antichrist is an individual that is presently on anyone’s radar.

Scenario Two: The conflict in Syria continues to destabilize the region and eventually one of the breakaway segments of Syria and possibly segments of northern Iraq and Turkey produces a much lesser known leader who rises to become quite powerful, eventually being revealed as the Antichrist. This scenario is similar to scenario one, except rather than simply looking to Turkey, the leader arises from Syria or Iraq or some new breakaway portion of that part of the world, which may or may not include a portion of Turkey. In considering where the Scriptures point with regard to the coming of the Antichrist, there is a tension. On one hand, Ezekiel 38-39 clearly emphasizes Turkey as the region from which the Antichrist will emerge. The Antichrist is Gog, who is from Magog, and is the chief prince, or leader of Meshech and Tubal, which correlate with modern day Turkey. On the other hand, Daniel 8 and 11 place great emphasis on Antiochus Epiphanes as a type of the Antichrist. As such, it would seem to be from the region of the ancient Seleucid Kingdom (Which Antiochus ruled over) that the Antichrist will likely emerge. This would tend to point to south-eastern Turkey, northern Syria or northern Iraq. But it is somewhat difficult to determine how much weight we should place on a precise geographic correlation between the historical Seleucid Kingdom and the ultimate future fulfillment of these prophetic texts. This is further complicated by the fact that the Seleucid Empire took various shapes at different periods of its existence. So while I continue to lean toward seeing the Antichrist as coming from Turkey, (as I simply cannot see anyway to get around Ezekiel 38 and 39’s clear emphasis on that nation), in light of Daniel 8 and 11’s emphasis on the Seleucid Empire, I believe we would do well to remain open to any of these three nations as candidates from which the Antichrist could emerge.

Scenario Three: This scenario, as espoused by Davidson, which is based on a fully futurist interpretation of Daniel 7 and 8, would see Iran (the ram) as launching a regional offensive primarily into Iraq and Syria. After this offensive, we would see Turkey (the shaggy goat) respond with its own crushing military offensive. Iran would be defeated by Turkey, with the result being Turkish dominance of much of the northern Middle East. However, after crushing the Iranian offensive, the nation of Turkey would see its prominent leader die and for some unforeseen reason the new Greater Turkey would be broken up into four distinct segments. One of these segments, that which most closely correlates to the historical Seleucid Empire, likely including large segments of Syria and Iraq, would produce a little know leader who would eventually be revealed as the Antichrist.

The strength of this view, from my perspective, is that it could reconcile the tension that is felt between Ezekiel 38,39 and Daniel 8 & 11. One of its weaknesses is that it is an incredibly specific scenario. For this reason, while I think it is a view we should be aware of, consider, and watch for, I would not take a strong dogmatic stance on. The bottom line is that we see only through a glass darkly. The Scriptures tell us that our understanding of the future will be limited and obscured by our own limitations. I am convinced however, that when the time comes, the Lord will graciously allow his people to recognize the fulfillment of prophecy and understand the times. Our corporate understanding will continue to open up as the times draw closer. Now, to be clear, while I am encouraging a humble and open approach to prophecy, I am not suggesting that we should be equally open to every idea that is floating around out there. If we are to be honest, there are an abundant number of end time theories out there, and many are outright bizarre and not at all based on a careful and responsible interpretation of the Scriptures. But even among careful exegetes, there are various interpretations and options, and we will do well to be aware of and consider these various interpretations as we watch the present rolling waves and changing tides of the nations and eagerly watch for the coming of our King.

In a few weeks, Davidson is releasing a new version of his book, where he has significantly updated and expanded his previous work. I’ll make an update when it is released, but I would encourage everyone to pick up a copy and carefully consider his presentation.

Blessings,
Joel

56 Comments
  • Jim
    Posted at 22:55h, 28 December

    Joel, God has gifted you with vision. I love reading what the Spirit shows you. Daniel is a sealed book. Sealed until the time of the end. (Dan 12:4). We are approaching that time so some of the book’s seals are falling but not all. So like you brother, I approach this wonderful book with fear and trembling. Not wishing to overstep what God has allowed His Saints to see at this point.

    In Daniel 8:17,19 Gabriel clearly tells Daniel that the vision of the Ram and the Shaggy Goat refer to the appointed time of the end. Later in verse 26 Gabriel says “the vision of the evenings and mornings that has been given you is true, but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future”. Is the seal of this vision falling away? Is that why every historic interpretation has focused on historic events and only now we see it as possibly prophetic for our times? These three obvious verses 8:17,19 and 26 never penetrated my mind until recently.

    If it is prophetic it carries enormous implications for our times. Like you I await Mark Davidson’s new book in January.

  • good4u
    Posted at 23:09h, 28 December

    Cool Joel!

    You finally got to read Mark’s first book! Just when the second edition is hopefully about to be released…but hey, better late than never, right? You know I love you and have to give you some jazz! 🙂

    Your comparison/contrast commentary regarding possible outcomes is well-stated. I do believe that our gracious God will give his studied and watchful biblical prophecy teachers and devoted biblical prophecy students who love him even more light as events warrant when the purpose for us to know has come. And when that time has come, prophecy teachers, prophecy students and respective prophecy circles will compare notes, see what does and does not fit, seek God for his wise guidance and then we must go and warn our church brethren who are the church leaders so that the leaders may do the job God has called them to do to prepare the sheep for His coming. This is how I see our role as prophecy geeks, we are the ones God has called in Ezekiel 33 “watchmen on the wall” instead of looking for enemies we are called to be looking outward for the Lord’s Second Coming. To put it another way, we are the modern day early stage forerunners of Christ’s return and the modern day version of John the Baptist clones! Most of the church views prophecy geeks like me strange and weird who talk about “weird stuff” from the Bible that they really would rather not understand because it is to taxing on the brain! “You just tell me,” they say.

    But truly called prophecy students are not deterred…for we KNOW what God has called us to and we must obey God rather than man. If we go down a rabbit trail or take a temporary scenic route God will gently guide us back to where we need to be and we do not give up because His Word is faithful and true. It is not that God is wrong, it is because we were wrong in our mortal human understanding of the infinite God who amazingly still loves us anyway.

    Thank you for this current posting of yours Joel, is something to reflect on by chewing slowly.

    Blessings to you!

  • Joel
    Posted at 00:16h, 29 December

    good4U,

    I might remind you that if one seeks to be a clone of John the Baptist, then it is likely that one will also end up losing one’s head. Those who desire to carry the message of the return of Christ, the judgment of all mankind, and the resurrection of the dead, carry more than just that message. Just something to think about.

    Blessings!

  • good4u
    Posted at 00:26h, 29 December

    Joel…did you say that Christians should be prepared for martyrdom when testing begins and thru the Great Tribulation as a final testimony as a faithful witness to stand for Jesus? But then maybe I have just lost my head! Oh dear, a very bad pun! LOL

    Blessings to you!

  • Perry Brown
    Posted at 01:19h, 29 December

    Hi Joel,

    In addition to your books, I have also read Davidson’s book, Hidden in Plain Sight. All books are very good ones and helped very much to understand the ‘Islamic End-Time Paradigm’. I would like to share with you some of my thoughts concerning the book of Daniel and the possible futurist interpretation of the whole of Dan 7 and 8. Since you have mentioned that you are working through the possibility of this futurist interpretation, I would like to share some that I have been considering and meditating on.

    First, I do believe there could be future implications or fulfilments of the four kingdoms of Dan 7 and the ram and goat story of Dan 8 as Davidson has presented. I would also include the whole chapter of Daniel 11. Second, unlike Davidson, I also identify the 4 kingdoms of Dan 7 and the ram and goat with the historical kingdom/empires that most agree upon.

    Let me start by stating that the book of Daniel has two basic story lines included within. One story is about the life of the man Daniel and his friends, his radical, prayerful and intercessory lifestyle, his relationship with kings and his role within the government. It is the story of the prophet Daniel that is so much important for us, individually and corporately. The second story is a prophetic story of the coming eternal Kingdom and King. This prophetic story is laid out in the dreams, visions, angelical encounters and explanations of Dan 2, 7, 8, 9, 11-12. The prophetic story is one whole story with five part to it. We can only get the full understanding of this story if we put together all of the five parts.

    I will not get in to every prophetic detail of the book of Daniel, but the number one and basic theme of this prophetic story is the assurance to Gods people of the coming eternal Kingdom and the coming of the promised Messiah. However, there is a secondary theme of the prophetic story, which is that before the coming of this eternal and blessed Kingdom and the Messiah, a series of earthly and ungodly kings and kingdoms would rise, some waging war with others, culminating with a very very evil king and kingdom that would persecute and try to exterminate God’s people. Then this king and kingdom would come to the end not by human hands. Of course, this evil king would do many other things, according to the prophetic story.

    As mentioned above the very number one theme of the prophetic story is the assurance to God’s people of the coming of the eternal and blessed Kingdom and the Messiah (the Messianic Kingdom). Before we interpret and understand the prophecies from our standpoint in history (some more 2,500 years after the prophecies were given), we should understand from Daniel’s his generation’s and the following generation’s perspectives. They would have understood, if they took heed to prophecies (and in general, Jesus’s recommendation to watch and pray), that the coming Kingdom would be the restoration of the nation of Israel to its full glory and blessedness. The coming King would be the promised and much prophesied Messiah. Going down in history in the generation of the days of Antiochus Epiphanes, God’s people (the Jews) would have identified him as the evil king. As we know, many prophecies of Daniel identify with Antiochus and his activities, and many other prophecies do not. However, specially, one major prophecy did not happen in that generation, which is the coming of the eternal and blessed Kingdom (final restoration of the nation of Israel) and coming of the promised Messiah. The Messiah came, many years later, but did not fulfill the restoration of the nation of Israel and did not establish the physical eternal estate of the Kingdom of Israel, but instead He fulfilled another role in which He died, resurrected and ascended to the Father, postponing for at least 2,000 years for the establishment of the eternal and blessed Kingdom and establishing His dominium over all other kingdoms.

    As we know from the counsel of Scripture from the New Testament, the Messiah (Jesus) will return one day to establish this eternal and blessed Kingdom and have dominium over all.

    This all to say, that I believe this prophetic story was incomplete in history (from Babylon to Antiochus and then Jesus), and the whole story will happen again within the time frame of the end-times, culminating with the coming of the Antichrist and then Second Coming of Jesus and the establishment of His earthly Kingdom. When I say the same story, I include the notion of 4 end-time contemporary kingdoms or nations as described in Daniel 2 and 7, the wars between the kingdoms (second and third) and the breaking of the third kingdom into four parts of Daniel 8 and 11, the power struggle of the northern and southern broken-off parts of third kingdom of Daniel 11, and the culmination of the last and most evil king on earth of Daniel 7, 8 and 11.

    When I read Daniel 8, I see one complete story being told. Or it’s the story of the Medo-Persian and Grecian kingdoms culminating with Antiochus Epiphanes (even though some prophecies did not fulfill with Antiochus), or the story of 2 end-time nations culminating with the Antichrist. When I read Daniel 8, I cannot see a time gap between the days of the broken apart Grecian Empire and the end-time Antichrist. For me it does not fit. The supposedly time gap would be between verses 22 and 23 of Daniel 8. The reading of the story demands connectedness between the four broken horns of the goat Grecian Empire (Seleucid Empire, Ptolemaic Kingdom, Macedonia and/or Greece, and Thrace/Bythnia or Kingdom of Pergamon, depending on how the 4 horns are to be counted) of verse 22 and the king of fierce countenance of verse 23. Even verse 23 starts out with in the latter time of their kingdom; who’s kingdom? The four mentioned in verse 22. So, the king of fierce countenance of verse 23. Those kingdoms are long gone more than 2,000 years. Today, there are no trace of the Hellenistic kingdoms of the Seleucids or Ptolemaics. I cannot see reading Daniel 8 historically with the Medo-Persian and Grecian Empires and then eschatological with the Antichrist. Or I read Daniel 8 with a historical perspective culminating with Antiochus Epiphanes, knowing that some prophecies did not fulfil with him, or I read Daniel 8 with an eschatological perspective with 2 end-time contemporary nations waging wars culminating with the Antichrist. The best part of this I do not have to choose or pick between both perspectives. I choose both. I understand that both perspective of Daniel 8 are valid, even though some prophetic details of the evil king did not fulfill with Antiochus.

    I could say the same about Daniel 11 and 12. I can read the story of Daniel 11 and 12 with a historical perspective from the Persian kings, Grecian Empire and the kings of the north and south struggling between each other, culminating again with Antiochus, knowing that many prophecies did not fulfill with the career of Antiochus, especially those described in verses 36 to 45. Of course, many other prophecies of Daniel 12 did not happen in Antiochus days, i.e. the resurrection of the dead. I also can read Daniel 11 and 12 with an eschatological perspective of end-time kings and kingdoms with power struggles between a northern and a southern kingdom, culminating with the Antichrist. However, this time, all prophetic details of this evil king will be fulfilled.

    In the same manner, I cannot see in Daniel 11 a time gap between the northern Seleucid Empire and the northern end-time kingdom of the Antichrist. I know that the verse of Daniel 11 for supposed time gap varies between commentators and bible prophecy students. Most say, it’s in verse 36, others 35, others 40, and some say in verse 21. I simply cannot see a time gap. Whatever verse you would choose, the question all goes back to verse 20 and 21. All say that verse 20 is talking about a Seleucid King (Seleucus Philopator) in the 2nd century BC. Verse 21 starts saying “And in his estate shall stand up a vile person…”. In who’s estate (office or place) will the vile person shall stand up? The king of the north of verse 20. If the king of the north in verse 20 is Seleucus Philopator, then the vile person of verse 21 should be Antiochus Epiphanes. However, if we account that the end-time Antichrist is in view as from verse 21 (or 36, or 40, depending on one’s view), then the king of the north of verse 20 cannot be a second century BC Seleucid king (Seleucus Philopater), rather an end-time king that proceeds the Antichrist. Again, I do not have to choose between on perspective or the other. I read and understand both perspective are in view while reading Daniel 11 and 12, even though many verses (11:36-12:4) where not fulfilled historically.

    I hope this did not seem to confusing. I could go on and on and try to explain my understanding, but I need to keep this short (although I guess it was not). In summary, as I read the prophetic story of Daniel (Dan 2, 7, 8, 9, 11-12) I see a historical application, although incomplete (especially with regards to the Messianic Kingdom, and I also see an eschatological application of the story (even including the parts that are traditionally rendered as exclusively historical).

    It is very important to say that the historical perspective and application of the prophetic story of Daniel cannot surpass in no way the importance of the eschatological perspective. I do not have an amillenial or preterist view, my eschatological view is pre-millennialism.

    Blessings,

    Perry Brown

  • Joel
    Posted at 02:32h, 29 December

    Hi Perry,

    Thanks for your comments. What you have articulated concerning Daniel 8 and 11 is perhaps the closet to my view. Though I do disagree regarding your inability to allow for a transition or bleeding at any particular point in the prophecy. But concerning the historical versus end time perspective, I do not see it as an either /or issue, rather I see Daniel 8 and a large part of Daniel 11 as partially fulfilled in history as a shadow, but ultimately fulfilled in the end times. That said, I do not have a problem with seeing the historical bleeding into the future at a particular point. For example, I agree with you that the vile person arising after the subject of 11:20 (Seleucus Philopator) must be Antiochus. However, I also think that it is most fully realized in Antichrist. But I do not see it as necessary to see an end time fulfillment in verse 1-20. Though there are some commentators who have argued for this.

    Likewise with Daniel 8, versus 1-22 must be speaking of the Medo-Persian and Greek Empires, because it says so. It calls them by name. And I agree that the subject of 23-27 must apply to Antiochus. But it also must be eschatological, because it also says so. It says so twice. So we have the option of viewing the whole book as being in error, as liberal scholar would do, or we can see it as having both historical fulfillment and future. Believing in the divine inspiration of Scripture, I know where I stand. But I am fascinated with the prospect that Daniel 8:2-22 are speaking eschatologically. If so, as I say in this post, the ramifications are dramatic.

    However, I am also wrestling with whether or not this same approach can responsibly be taken with Daniel 7. I am much less inclined to see this, but I’m open to the idea. The problem with some who have interpreted Daniel 7 as future is that they simply try to subjectively determine what nations they represent. So they assign the bear to Russia and the Leopard to France or something like this. What I appreciate about Davidson’s identification is that his four end time nations correlate to the traditional interpretation that most apply to the four historical Kingdoms of Daniel 2 (barring of course the fourth, which most IMO wrongly see as Rome). Thus the Lion correlates to Iraq / Babylon, the bear to Iran / Medo-Persia, the Leopard to Turkey / Greece, and the fourth beast to the Antichrist Empire / Historical Islamic Caliphate.

    Ultimately, if Iran launches a regional offensive then this interpretation would be confirmed. We would know what to look for next. If not, then the issue is settled. I suspect that we will know within the next few years.

    As always, the Lord knows best.

    Blessings!

  • good4u
    Posted at 03:43h, 29 December

    Okay, I would like to jump back in here, please. And fast forward to current events of today and the absolute determination of Iran’s regime (the Ram of Daniel 8) to complete its nuclear weaponry program. Let us not pretend it is for peaceful purposes on that we can all agree, I hope. Is it to start a nuclear weapons race in the ever volatile Mid-East with the Muslim neighbors? Iran is light years ahead of nearly all of them. So that is not feasible. Is it to “wipe Israel off the face of the world map”? Well, Israel has nukes too, so that is unlikely and just for internal Iranian radical consumption. So what is Iran’s motive then? Mark Davidson makes a very strong case for what Iran will likely do and so would be the final fulfillment of Daniel 8. What then would be Iran’s underlying motive to have nukes? It is Iranian hegemony. Iran actions are driven by their “brand” of Shia’ ideology/theology to bring about as much chaos as they possibly can so that their “Mahdi” will come out from his so-called “place” and bring about the re-establishment of the Islamic Caliphate and return the glory back to Islam. Their motives are so transparent to me. Why doesn’t the US federal government understand this? Never mind don’t answer that question.

    If the above is truly the motive of Iran they will not be stopped by reason, UN economic sanctions or naive diplomatic hopefulness now being pursued. The only way they will be stopped now if it is not God’s sovereign will that Iran has temporary hegemony in the Mid-east; then it is by military force. But that too is unlikely for sure by the US and it will then be left up to Israel. We shall see within the next blood-moon war tetrad how this play out or not. If Iran does not “charge out to the North, West and South” as Davidson states by the time Obama leaves office in 2017, then his signpost theory is incorrect and we must look else where, imo.

    But there is still time here and if Iran does indeed charge out in a military-style blitz by 2017 then there will need to be some re-calculating going on in prophecy circles and big time!

    Blessings!

  • Endtimes Grandma
    Posted at 15:09h, 29 December

    Hello Joel,

    Please do keep up the fine work the LORD JESUS has called you to. Since reading your “Mideast Beast” and Mark Davidson’s “In Plain Sight;” I have had much to chew on. Our blessed LORD JESUS called me over twenty years ago to be a watchman pertaining to Israel. More recently I have sensed that my love for Israel has not been very well informed. Your teachings, among others, are helping me get up to speed…greatly interrupting, I might add, the naturally tendency to age-related inertia and the strong desire to just sit and knit.

  • Paul
    Posted at 16:02h, 29 December

    Joel:

    In Mideast Beast, I interpret the four beasts of Daniel 7 as a reiteration of the four Kingdoms of Daniel 2. Mark (and several other interpreters, such as British Bible teacher David Pawson and Irvin Baxter, Jr.) interprets Daniel 7 to be speaking of four contemporaneous end-time nations.

    I’d heard Irvin Baxter speaking about Daniel 7 before, but didn’t realise David Pawson also held the “contemporaneous beasts” view. I found Chris White’s teaching on Daniel 7 rather compelling, and I now think that the four beasts are probably going to be roaming the earth at the same time.

    …But hey, what do I know? I’m one of those deviants who think Ezekiel 38-39 occurs at the end of the Millennium! 😉

    May The Lord continue to guide and bless you & your ministry in 2014.

    שלום

    Paul.

  • Adamant
    Posted at 17:35h, 29 December

    I propose a harmonisation of all three scenario’s.

    – Scenario 1 mentions the “little horn” from Turkey – still invisible, though maybe because it is hidden in our plain sight.

    – Scenario 2 mentions the region of the ancient Seleucid Kingdom that the Antichrist will likely emerge from, tending to point to south-eastern Turkey, northern Syria and/or northern Iraq

    – Scenario 3 mentions one of the four segments of Greater Turkey yet-to-come, that which most closely correlates to the historical Seleucid Empire, likely including large segments of Syria and Iraq, producing a little know leader who would eventually be revealed as the Antichrist.

    The region mentioned in all three scenario’s looks remarkably like Kurdistan. If it is, the three scenario’s start to resemble each other a lot. Maybe they even coincide, especially if the leader to emerge from the Kurds is from the Turkish part of Kurdistan, and if he gets (or already has at that time) a lot of influence in or on Turkey.

    The Kurds live in South-Eastern Turkey (around 15 million), Western Iran (around 7 million), Northern Iraq (around 6 million) and Western Syria (around 3 million), in a rather continuous territory, once in its entirety contained by the Seleucid empire. They descend from the Medes. They had no state of their own for over two thousand years. Yet they would love to unite into their own state. It could become powerful because of lots of yet unused oil in their territory, especially in a future with less oil than we have now. This would cost the present, Turkey, Iran, Iraq and Syria dearly. So they strongly oppose this.

    A rebirth of Media in Kurdistan would have some similarity with the rebirth of Israel, which might even help and make a covenant with it (for lack of other allies in that future), because this would weaken the four above mentioned present enemies of Israel considerably. (The defeater of our enemies is our friend…)

    And now suppose that once upon a time a Kurdish leader from Turkey arises and unites ten states in the region, having subdued the trio Syria, Iraq and Iran first… And suppose he then suddenly starts treading in the footsteps of Saladin the Kurd, the very same one that united the Muslims before, having a large empire including Egypt, and then actually conquered Jerusalem…

    I hope this suggestion is of some help. Maybe it is already in Davidsons book, I did not yet read it (but I certainly shall read his new version.)

  • good4u
    Posted at 19:22h, 29 December

    @Adamant…

    I can tell you for a fact that your current scenario is NOT in Mark Davidson’s first book. But interesting twist on merging all war-gaming scenarios in your post. Maybe it is is in Mark’s second edition of Hidden in Plain Sight. We hopefully will find out in late January when it goes into production.

    Blessings!

  • Perry Brown
    Posted at 19:47h, 29 December

    Joel,

    Thank you for your response. I esteem yours and other comments, really need them.

    Daniel 8 and 11, undoubtedly have a historic application and fulfilment, into some extent. The prophecies are very detailed and correlate to historic events. The names of ancient kingdoms are mentioned, Media, Persia, Greece. I also do not see as an either/or issue, I consider it a both/and issue. When I read these texts, I can take a historic perspective and identify the animals as the ancient empires of Medo-Persia and Greece, culminating with Antiochus, knowing that some parts do not even come close to fulfilment, especially those from Dan 11:35 onwards. I also read these texts with an end-time perspective identifying the kingdoms mentioned with end-time (and current) nations of the Middle East, culminating with the Antichrist. I try to keep the two perspective in focus and valid, but separate from each other, rather than transitioning or blending historical events with eschatological events with a time lapse in between. I try to keep the same context for all players and events mentioned within the whole chapters of Daniel 8 and 11.

    As for the eschatological perspective in chapter 8, Daniel has a vision and angels interpret it. In verse 16, one of the angel says to Gabriel, the archangel, to tell Daniel the understanding of the vision. Gabriel tells Daniel that the vision pertains to the time of the end. But, what vision is Gabriel referring to? Only the part of the little horn, the king of fierce countenance? No, I believe he is referring to the whole vision, including the ram and goat and little horn. Gabriel also tells Daniel that he will make him know what will happen in the latter time of indignation for its appointed to the time of the end. Next, Gabriel starts interpreting the whole vision with the ram and goat and the little horn. Therefore, I see the whole vision of Daniel 8 also pertaining to the end-times.

    I view Daniel 7 with historic perspective, identifying the animals of ancient kingdoms, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and the forth as the Islamic Empire (or Caliphate). However, I also see Daniel 7 with an eschatological perspective, identifying the four animals with contemporaneous nations of the Middle East. Likewise Davidson’s identification, I also identify the lion as Iraq, bear as Iran, Leopard as Turkey (leading a confederation of four nations), and the forth animal as Antichrist’s kingdom. The basis of this identification is the same geographic location of the origin of the ancient kingdoms, Babylon/Iraq in Mesopotamia, Medo-Persia/Iran between the Caspian Sea and Persian Gulf and Greece/Turkey in the western coast of Asia Minor.

    The main reason I also see a full end-time application of Daniel 7, including the 4 animals (kingdoms/nations) is related to the judgment given to all four kingdoms/nations. The vision that Daniel in chapter 7 had can be divided into two parts, one part related to players and events on earth and the other part related to the heavenly scene of the God’s Throne. In the heavenly scene, Daniel sees a heavenly court that sat down to judge. Moreover, judgment was given not only to the forth animal (v. 11 and 26) but also to the three animals, lion, bear and leopard (v. 12). I view this heavenly court being set up in Daniel 7 as the same heavenly scene the Apostle John saw in Revelation 4 and 5. I believe that the thrones being set up or placed in Daniel 7:9 are the same thrones John saw in Daniel 4 and 5, the 24 elders. The heavenly scene that described in Rev. 4 and 5 with Jesus taking the scroll is yet future. My premise is that, since the heavenly court sits down on thrones (24) and Jesus receives the scroll from the Fathers hand is yet still future, the same scene that Daniel saw of thrones being placed and judgment given forth is also still future. Therefore, the judgment on the three animals (lion, bear and leopard) is still future as well. That’s only possible if all three and the forth kingdom are contemporaneous in the end-times. I does not seem that the heavenly court is passing a judgment on the ancient empires of Babylon, Persia and Greece. These empires have been gone a long time ago. Some sort of heavenly judgment, in the past, has already been establish to take away the dominion of these empires.

    As for Daniel 11, the fact that the angel tells Daniel there would be four more Persian kings in verse 2, the fourth attacking the realm of Greece and the very next event is the rise of a mighty king in verse 3, and leave out some many other Persian kings not listed or counted is astonishing. I know that the normal explanation for the angel not mentioning the other Persian kings (I have once counted 8 kings after Xerxes until Alexander) is that the angel gave Daniel the most important Persian Kings as related to Jewish affairs or that would have more relevance to Israel’s people. I do not agree much with this explanation, if it would be so, then the angel would have left out one of the very most important Persian Kings as related to Israel, Artaxerxes, who gave the royal edit for the restoration of Jerusalem, the very commencing event that begins the 70 weeks, as many believe. I don’t think the angel would have left out Artaxerxes if that was the explanation.

    I am not ruling out any historical fulfilment, application or identification of Daniel 11, I do believe Daniel 11 has a fulfilment in the history of ancient Persia and Greece (Hellenistic kingdoms). I am adding a future eschatological application and fulfilment of the whole chapter of Daniel 11, not only to the verses attributed to the Antichrist from verse 21. I know that this interpretation is very debatable and I acknowledge that, however, I am trying to grasp the very implications of this, which are enormous.

    I leave it here for now. Maybe I can continue as discussion flows.

    Blessings,

    Perry Brown

  • Joel
    Posted at 19:49h, 29 December

    Adamant,

    It is true, and something I have thought of quite a bit, that the Seleucid Dynasty correlates quite well to the long sought after, but presently non-existent Kurdistan, but does not align clearly with the boundaries of the present day nation states in that neighborhood. It is also interesting that great hero of the Islamic World, the victor over the crusaders, Salah ad Deen, was a Kurd. But this could all mean nothing. It is also possible that the historical shadow of the Seleucid Kingdom is just that: A Shadow. And that which is to come may not lie in precisely the same area, but will simply be similar enough to be recognizable and qualify as the last days King of the North. Again, time will tell.

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

    Blessings,
    Joel

  • Brian
    Posted at 20:57h, 29 December

    I believe that the Lord is merciful with our intellectual/cognitive shortcomings as it relates to apprehending proper orthodoxy, but should it be a concern that Irvin Baxter Jr. is a Oneness Pentecostal (Modalist view of the Godhead)?

    Brian

  • Joel
    Posted at 21:57h, 29 December

    Great comments Perry. Curiously, do you have any good commentaries that you recommend which might agree with your perspective? I am sure you are aware of S.P. Tregelles, whose commentary on Daniel examines all of Daniel 11 through a historical lens. The implications are quite fascinating. At this point, my favorite commentator is G.H. Lang. My friend Reggie Kelly of the.mysteryofisrael.org has been instrumental in helping me to see the crucial reality of a future fulfillment of vv. 21-35 in chapter 11, but I’ve been very hesitant to see anything future prior to these verses. Apparently, I’ll be parked in Daniel for much longer than I had initially anticipated. Thanks again for your comments.

    Blessings

  • David W. Lincoln
    Posted at 23:59h, 29 December
  • Perry Brown
    Posted at 02:11h, 30 December

    Joel,

    I have downloaded Tregelles book (Remarks on the Prophetic Visions in the Book of Daniel) some time ago but haven’t had chance to read it yet. Really, I have not read any commentaries on the book of Daniel with a whole end-time perspective of the prophetic dream and visions. However, I have read some more traditional commentaries.

    I have read much of Reggie’s articles. Great teacher. I believe the Lord is and will use him very uniquely regarding the role of the Church with Israel and bringing understanding to the covenant eschatology. He was the first one I have read to articulate that the vile person in verses 21 to 35, and not only from 36 to 45, is the Antichrist, and not just a foreshadowing from Antiochus. This has major implications on how we understand the events regarding the Antichrist with the holy covenant and the abomination of desolation.

    Yes, stay parked on Daniel for some more time, I believe the Lord will grant you much more revelation. Run to and fro in the pages of the book of Daniel, and knowledge of the book will increase.

    My eschatological perspective of the whole chapters of Daniel 7, 8 and 11-12 has a specific time frame that is comprehend between the establishment of the modern state of Israel in 1948, but more precisely, as from Jerusalem comes under Israeli control in 1967, until the end of the Great tribulation and the end of the Antichrist’s empire, culminating with the Messianic Kingdom (Millennial Kingdom).

    Therefore, the rise of the 4 kingdoms (lion, bear, leopard and the forth terrible beast) listed in Daniel 7, under this eschatological perspective, should happen within the this time frame. That is the same for the ram and the goat vision in Daniel 8. Regarding Daniel 11, the interesting thing is that the angel tells Daniel 3 more kings will rise in Persia and the forth one would be very rich. I tend to see these 4 kings as from the Iranian Islamic Revolution in 1979, when Iran became a wild beast. These 4 kings would be, if this interpretation is correct, 4 Supreme Leaders of Iran, the Grand Ayatollahs. Currently we are in the second Grand Ayatollah as the Supreme Leader of Iran. If this understanding is correct, there would be one more Supreme Leader, the Grand Ayatollah and then a forth king, which could be the President of Iran (smaller horn of the ram in Dan 8) becoming higher than the other horn (Supreme Leader), and then conduct the military invasion in the Middle East as in Dan 8. After this, a mighty king (11:4) will stand up and take down and destroy the Shiite regime of Iran (8:5-7). This mighty king is from Turkey. At that time, I believe (I could be wrong at this) that Turkey would leading a four nation confederation (Turkey, Egypt and 2 other nations), maybe under a Sunni Muslim Brotherhood umbrella. I know that current events in Egypt seem to deny this, but, there are more twist and turns then we expect to happen in that region. However, this four nation confederation would not withstand and will break apart, leaving Turkey and Egypt, the kings of the north and the south, respectively, to a very serious power struggle that would last a couple of years. In the midst of this power struggle, a vile person rise to power in Turkey and the rest we know, aka the Antichrist.

    I could be wrong on this interpretation, but I am still meditating and testing this view. However, I believe to be true. That is why it’s very important for me to get feedback and even be challenged regarding this eschatological perspective.

    Blessings,

    Perry Brown

  • good4u
    Posted at 03:19h, 30 December

    Ouuuu…Perry….I am seeing shades of Mark Davidson’s signpost theory in your last post. I wonder if Mark’s second edition of his Hidden in Plain Sight book is anything like your above post? If so, then is the LORD showing us glimpses of what could be in the near future? There is no doubt, that Iran is truly up to something and is hell-bent on accomplishing “it.” Whatever that it is…I also have my suspicions that it is Iranian-Shia’ hegemony in the greater Mideast. But I am not nearly as scholarly as you and Joel, but part of it is study and intuition that I cannot prove. But Joel lets me post anyway! 😉

    Gosh, Joel…why would anyone watch TV when we have the best suspense-thriller right on this web site? LOL

    Blessings!

  • christopher
    Posted at 04:25h, 30 December

    Hi Joel And Company,
    I Recommend Learning About A Man Named Albert Pike. He Wrote A Letter In Which He Describes Three World Wars. He Was Very Accurate In His Description Of The First Two World Wars. He Even Will Tell You Who Are The Two Sides Being Set Against One Another. He Did This In The 1800’s.
    He Describes The Third World War As Between The Arabs And The Jews. He Goes On To Say That The WHole World Will Pick A Side. Mainly East Against West. Christians Will Be Pitted Against atheist And Ultimately The World Will Grow Weary With War And impoverished economically. then they Will Accept The Pure Doctrine Of Lucifer.
    Check Out Albert Pike, He Was A Mason, And Was Right About The First Two World Wars.

  • David Roberts
    Posted at 11:12h, 30 December

    My gut says scenario two, him being called the Assyrian and all.
    I see him coming out of chaos.

  • David Roberts
    Posted at 11:47h, 30 December

    Joel, what do you think of this being the Mahdi’s base of operations, before he moves to Jerusalem?
    http://www.islamiclandmarks.com/syria/minaret_of_isa_as.html

  • Joel
    Posted at 12:32h, 30 December

    David,

    First, there is no such thing as the Mahdi. The Antichrist may claim to be the Mahdi, but this would only be a claim. And we certainly have no Scriptural proof of this. As for your specific question, anything is possible. But again, there is no Scriptural support either way. Damascus is a bit south in terms of the Scriptural requirements of the AC’s initial base of operations, but I would not rule it out entirely.

    Blessings

  • Jotoole
    Posted at 15:20h, 30 December

    I think when we are deciding if any prophetic picture in scripture has been fulfilled or is yet future, the first question to ask is “Does the proposed past fulfillment fit perfectly?”. In other words does what is being proposed as a past fulfillment fit as perfectly as the Messianic prophecies do.

    Its one thing to propose possible future fulfillments that are a bit “hazy” as we don’t know all the details but when we say something has already been fulfilled we now have the whole picture and should be able to dot the i’s and cross the t’s.

    This brings me to the four beasts of Daniel 7. I always assumed they were just expansions on the 4 empires from the statue. However, to be totally honest, the explanations of how they fitted never really worked for me (although I believed them). Some fit better than others. The bear is a good example of a bad fit. I defy anyone to explain why it has 3 ribs in its mouth. I’ve heard various explanations (3 important battles etc.) but never one where I felt “Wow, its a perfect picture of what happened!”. Every explanation for these beasts seem to be more like an exercise in trying to match the beast to what we know of the kingdom it corresponds to on the statue and really grasping at straws.

    As such I have of late decided that they are more likely to be of future fulfillment but have not put the effort in to see how this may work. Perhaps I am a candidate for the recommended book? 🙂

  • Perry Brown
    Posted at 17:51h, 30 December

    good4u,

    Davidson’s book helped me understand the eschatological perspective as a whole within the book of Daniel. However he remains only to chapters 7 and 8, and I include 11 and perhaps 2. I think his new release of the book will have changes regarding the two horns of the ram, but probably not new information as from different chapter of Daniel.

    Blessings,

    Perry Brown

  • Hanoch
    Posted at 05:25h, 31 December

    b”h

    Shalom Joel,

    Just to mention that I am not convinced that Gog HAS to be the A/C, depending on how Dan 11:44 is understood. But I have not worked through all the implications, so nothing final here.

    Best wishes in Messiah, and I hope you are considering my suggestion. . .

    😉

  • giles
    Posted at 09:53h, 31 December

    Joel,

    Enter Scenario 4

    Like you mentioned in scenario 1, the emphasis is on Turkey being the power horse of the alliance, with the AC in control.

    But this does not mean he is actually Turkish. Nahum 1 talks about a specific indivdual coming from Ninevah (Iraq), which i believe is referring to the AC, which would fulfill the requirements of scenario 2.

    History has shown that some famous leaders of nations did not actually come from those nations they led. Napoleon was from Corsica. George III was German, he didnt speak a word of English. Charles V of Spain, he was born in modern Holland. And Obama, apparently, is Kenyan 😉
    So this future Islamic leader could orginate in Iraq, like scenario 2, but have some kind of dominating influence in Turkey, like scenario 1.

  • good4u
    Posted at 15:04h, 31 December

    Gosh Joel,

    I’m not getting any work done…this thread is just too durn interesting! Shame on you for stirring up a hornet’s nest! LOL

    Blessings! 😀

  • good4u
    Posted at 18:08h, 01 January

    Joel,

    Since this thread is about the Book of Daniel, and yes, I know you are doing more study time in Daniel as a result of this thread; my question is tho’ slightly off topic and it relates to Daniel 9:27. Could you do a commentary on this verse from your current understanding as time permits, please? I checked your articles and unless I missed it, you have not addressed this most important and critical verse in Daniel, that I am aware of. The reason for my request is I’ve seen a rendering that makes sense hermeneutically to me, and corrects a classical and probably false understanding (that many also hold for that is all we have heard) regarding this verse. But then left me with this question, will we have the ability to know exactly when the 70th Week of Daniel will actually commence?

    To help out, here are the three relevant links that got me to ponder the above question.

    Link #1: http://fotl4j.accountsupport.com/id175.html

    Link #2: http://fotl4j.accountsupport.com/id18.html

    Link #3: http://fotl4j.accountsupport.com/id42.html

    Look forward to seeing a post from you someday on this verse. Preferably before the Lord returns so He doesn’t have to answer the question of which I still have many! 😉

    Blessings!

  • Joel
    Posted at 19:28h, 01 January

    Good4U,

    The articles linked to are not accurate on a few fronts.

    Though there is tremendous debate concerning several aspects of the passage, most Hebrew scholars (eg., Gleason Archer Jr., Leon Wood, John Walvoord, Stephen Miller, etc.) the “he” of verse 27, the one who makes the covenant, (he either strengthens a pre-existing covenant, or enforces a covenant) is indicated by the previous subject. Thus the he is “the prince who is to come”. There is no actual grammatical support for this being God.

    Second, the offerings cease are not “praise and commitment to God” as the article states, the words here, as well as in the parallel passages in Daniel 8:10-15, 11:31 and 12:11 all point to actual grain offerings and sacrifices in the temple. The notion that praise and commitment to God will cease is simply an untenable view regardless.

    This is only the beginning of the problems with the notion that this verse has nothing to do with the Antichrist. As I show here, this passage is also paralleled by Isaiah 28 and 10.

    Based on the text, I fully expect to see some form of Antichristic covenant whereby Israel trusts in this covenant for its own peace and security.

    Sorry for being so brief. I hope that this has helped.

    Blesisngs

  • good4u
    Posted at 20:37h, 01 January

    Thanks Joel, it does. I did go back and look more closely at your articles. You do address this in your 70 weeks revisited to a fair degree. I always classically understood that it was the Antichrist who would confirm the covenant and then break the same after 3.5 years. Those links were persuasive with all the linguistics and grammar flow charting and had to ask you if agreed. Thanks for cutting through all the razzle-dazzle so it can be dismissed. You are a very good reality check. Thank you. 🙂

    Blessings!

  • Joel
    Posted at 21:34h, 01 January

    Beyond that, the first chart is misleading in that it actually jumps from one verse to another, skipping segments and verse 26 altogether. Here are the words that he places in the grammar chart (in bold) and the ones that are left out:

    24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    To me, that is misleading. The articles are written by someone who has access to Blue Letter Bible online but doesn’t actually know the languages themselves. This much is clear. And it is always a dangerous thing when someone with access to a simplified online resource think they know much better than actual scholars and interpreters. The Blue Letter BIble for example uses the root form, but not the actual tense of the words in their original languages.

  • good4u
    Posted at 22:00h, 01 January

    See, this is why you do not always trust everything you read on-line and I knew I had a question about how those who watch would know when the 70th week would start. Those charts never answered that question. I finally did find his email and asked that question to the Web Master. We will see if I get a response. If it smells fishy, it probably is a dead fish that you don’t want. And it did not pass the smell test for you and I questioned it. Thank you for your kind assistance here. Stuff like this I run across a lot. But this was so slick I just had to run it by you for your thoughts. You are a trustworthy source and I’m so glad I found you.

    Blessings!

  • Willard
    Posted at 04:01h, 02 January

    Very interesting thread – I see Dan 7 as a dual prophecy past and future – To understand Dan 7 and 8 as future we need to go back to Dan 2:44-45 where it clearly states that the rock which I understand as Christ and which is yet future will crush or destroy all of the previous kingdoms and bring them to an end which are in reverse order the iron – bronze – clay – silver and gold when he the rock comes

    Da 2:44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.
    Da 2:45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces

    If you count the references to end days, last days, day of wrath or similar in Dan 8 there are 6 references to the last days

    Da 8:19 He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end

  • Willard
    Posted at 04:09h, 02 January

    I should have added that if the rock is going to crush and destroy these previous kingdoms in the statue of metals as it reads when he comes they must be in existence in some form to be crushed and destroyed at that time which points to a dual fulfilling past and present / future

  • Perry Brown
    Posted at 00:44h, 03 January

    Hi Willard,

    I agree with you. I also view Nebuchadnezzar’s dream in chapter 2 have two perspectives or applications of the prophecy. One which contemplates world history in the view of somewhat sequential gentile kingdoms/empires (Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and the Islamic Empire/Caliphate), culminating with the establishment of the Messianic Millennial Kingdom. The other which contemplates four contemporaneous nations/kingdoms in the end times, of which the forth, the Antichrist’s kingdom, also culminating with the establishment of the Messianic Millennial Kingdom. In each two prophecy perspectives or applications, the four kingdoms correlate to the four kingdoms represented by four animals in Daniel chapter 7.

    As you have mentioned correctly, the Stone will strike the feet of the statue and destroy all of its components. Unless one interprets this in a very vague way, what is implied is that when the Stone strikes the feet of iron and clay, the whole statue crumbles and is broken by the Stone, meaning that at the Second Coming of Jesus, He will strike at the core of the forth kingdom (the Antichrist’s) and all of the kingdoms that pertain to it will also be destroyed. As in verse 44, this Messianic Kingdom will crush and put to end all of these kingdoms. Which kingdoms? The kingdoms represented by the head of gold, chest and arms of silver, belly and thighs of bronze, legs of iron and feet and toes of iron and clay. This seems to me that contemporaneous nations/kingdoms are implied. The Neo-Babylonian Kingdom was defeated by the Persian Empire, not the Messianic Millennial Kingdom. Same to the defeat and destruction of the Persian Empire and Grecian Hellenistic Empire (s).

    Who would be these end-time contemporaneous nations/kingdoms? I would look at the spiritual and geographic inheritor of the original land from which those ancient kingdoms rose from: Babylon – Mesopotamia (Eufrates and Tigres revirs) – Iraq; Medo-Persia – Iranian mountain range and plateau between the Caspian Sea and Persian Gulf – Iran; Greece – western coastland of Asia Minor (Javan/Ionia) – Turkey.

    Said that, at this point in time, there are some difficulties, which I have not yet understood, such as, in what manner would the nation of Iran be inferior to Iraq, in what manner would Turkey rule of the all of the earth (let remember that this does not necessary mean all of the countries in all of the continents of the planet earth)? And also, in what manner would the Antichrist’s Empire start out as strong as iron, then divided itself to have a stronger and a weaker portion, etc.? These are still some reaming questions I have. It could be that this end-time perspective or application of Dan. Ch. 2 should only be viewed in context to the end-time perspective or application if Dan. Ch. 7., and not have that much significance as stand-alone. However, I will continue searching. I also accept suggestions. Anyone?

    Blessings,

    Perry Brown

  • Willard
    Posted at 01:21h, 03 January

    It will not be a long dragged out affair and it will be when the gold, silver and bronze are in existence again

    Da 2:44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed…………………

    Da 9:26……….The end will come like a flood

  • Perry Brown
    Posted at 02:00h, 03 January

    Willard,

    I could be wrong, but the only time in history after the rise of the Persian Empire in the late 6th century BC that three distinct geo-political entities ruled the three geographic areas I mentioned in my previous post was in the 20th century AD. There has always been one or two geo-political entities dominating those three realms or dominions. I could be wrong on this; and if I am, could someone gently point it out to me?

    Three general geographic regions:
    – Mesopotamia (Euphrates and Tigres rivers)
    – Iranian mountain range and plateau between the Caspian Sea and Persian Gulf
    – Western Asia Minor or Anatolia itself

    There you have in, in the 20th century, distinctive metal elements reappearing, gold, silver and bronze, Iraq, Iran and Turkey, respectively. In the days of these kings…

    Blessings,

    Perry Brown

  • Joel
    Posted at 02:48h, 03 January

    Perry,

    Excellent comments. One thing to consider with regard to the correlation of Turkey to the ancient “Greece” is that there are two ways in which to consider this. One is the primary region from which Alexander launched his Middle Eastern invasion and which “Greece” was headquartered. As you correctly stated, this was both on the European of side as well as the Asian side: Javan/Ionia. But there is also the Seleucid aspect of “Greece” that in many ways became the dominant feature of the prophetic passages. So between the two forms of “Greece” it is entirely reasonable to see modern Turkey as the fulfillment of these end time references.

    I also agree that of course there are yet things that very much remain deep mysteries.

    Blessings

  • Willard
    Posted at 03:22h, 03 January

    My thoughts are very much the same as yours Perry – if we considered the Arab Spring nations and all the nations in turmoil due to the Shiite Sunni divide nations once under Alexander like Libya, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Jordan, Afghanistan, Pakistan and now unrest in Turkey we are likely seeing the iron and clay coming into play as a 10 nation union very soon

    As Jesus himself possibly pointed to these nations when he said the fig tree (Israel) and all the trees – nations which came back into play and were re-created by the League of Nations mainly the French and English after the Ottoman empire fell apart – just my thoughts

    Lk 21:29 He told them this parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees.
    Lk 21:30 When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near

  • good4u
    Posted at 03:57h, 03 January

    @Perry,

    Your question: “And also, in what manner would the Antichrist’s Empire start out as strong as iron, then divided itself to have a stronger and a weaker portion, etc.?”

    I will take from what I remember about the statue from Daniel Chap. 2, maybe from Joel’s conference teachings, but I couldn’t find it when I went back to my notes. So Joel, jump in here to fill in or correct, but the legs of iron on the Statute is the Islamic Caliphate with the part strong/part weak clay mixture feet being the the power base of the Antichrist’s ten-nation confederacy. This ten-nation “feet” of the statute is inherently unstable as is the Islam religion itself for the two sects of Islam are constantly at odds with each other making for an unstable rule within the Caliphate from its reformation in the future. As a result, it is tho’ the world of Islam is to like “herding cats.” Because of their religious differences it will make it nearly impossible as time goes on for the Antichrist to maintain cohesive rule, let alone somehow rule the “world.”

    Actually, the Antichrist will not rule the world. It is merely an idiom to say that the Caliphate will rule a region of the world. But make no mistake, the whole world will f-e-e-l the hot, fierce breath of the beast of the Caliphate. But only the Lord Jesus will completely govern the world globally, the Father in heaven will see to it.

    Joel, if I am mistaken here, please correct. I’m going from memory here. Either from your books, conferences or reading on the net. Thanks so much.

    Blessings!

  • Willard
    Posted at 04:33h, 04 January

    I think we can see the iron and the clay in Islam when we look at the Sunni and the Shiites – they fit perfectly with the prophecy we read in Gen 16:12

  • Perry Brown
    Posted at 11:05h, 04 January

    Joel,

    Yes, the Seleucid aspect of Greece could be in view when we look at the third kingdom (belly and thighs of bronze of Dan 2 and the leopard with four heads of Dan 7) of the eschatological perspective of these prophecies, but I do not think entirely or even exclusively. Actually, I see this third kingdom as a four nation confederation (four heads of the leopard) led by Turkey, that eventually, after some time, will not withstand and break apart, giving back “independence” to the four nations. At this point of time, I cannot identify precisely and entirely which nations that comprise this confederation. However, It’s seems clear that Turkey would be one of the them, which is Meshech and Tubal, the nation were Gog will be chief prince (Ez 38:2) and successor of the kings of the north from Daniel 11 (Dn 11:20-21). Another nation that seems to be part of this confederation is Egypt, because it’s very much mentioned for it’s name in Daniel 11 (Dan 11:8, 42, 43) and because of the correspondence of the end-time king of the south with the ancient king of the south, Ptolemaic kingdom.

    The other two nations are not so much clear, but I have some hints of who could be “candidates”. Syria could be one of them, since it was the head of the ancient king of the north, Seleucid Empire. For the same reason, Iraq could be another. But, I also have to look within Daniel 11, and Jordan appears as well (Dan 11:41, Edom, Moab and sons of Ammon), not to forget Lybia and Sudan (Put and Cush, Dan 11:43). According to some current trends, the Muslim Brotherhood as very much ties in Egypt, despite current conflicts, and in Syria, with some of the rebel groups. Also, Muslim Brotherhood has a very close relationship with the current government of Turkey. These are all possibilities, however much can be changed and Muslim Brotherhood could lose control or influence in the region.

    However, there is another possibility to view the third kingdom, as only Turkey and not a four nation confederation. I think this possibility is less likely, but I just need to keep it open for now. Within this possibility, the nation of Turkey could split in to four parts. But, the problem with this is the very notion of north and south. The southern part of Turkey will still be north (taking Israel as the reference point). But, it could reconcile, at least from my point of view, the four nations comprised of the Gog coalition, Meshech, Tubal, Gomer and Beth-Togarma, which are all in today’s nation of Turkey, of which Gog is the chief prince of only Meshech and Tubal, and having Gomer and Beth-Togarma being allies some years later, after the split of Turkey. As I said, this possibility is less likely to happen. Currently, I view the four nation confederation as more likely to be the third kingdom (belly and thighs of bronze of Dan 2 and the Leopard with four heads of Dan 7), and it could very well have very much similarities to the geographic region of the Seleucid Empire, but not exclusively.

    Blessings,

    Perry Brown

  • Perry Brown
    Posted at 11:05h, 04 January

    Willard,

    I never really noticed the “all the trees” part in Luke 21:29. In my mind, this parable was only about the fig tree as in Matthew’s account (Matt 24:32). This is interesting, this parable teaches us to not only consider the fig tree but also all the trees. Thanks.

    Blessings,

    Perry Brown

  • Jim
    Posted at 15:54h, 04 January

    I go out of town for a week and wow, over 40 postings, and very interesting posts.

    Adamant, I saw your post about the AC possibly being a Kurd. Since we view all of this thru a glass darkly, I hold my views loosely. IMO, I think you are correct geographically but maybe not ethnically. Since scripture refers to the AC as “the Assyrian”, I assume that is what he is, an Assyrian not Kurd. Politically, the Kurds are Islam’s “rednecks” and it is hard for me to imagine this group that the beast countries are trying to hold under their thumb suddenly uniting and becoming the dominant player. However, there are many twists and turns in drama that God will allow to unfold.

  • Perry Brown
    Posted at 15:55h, 04 January

    good4u,

    Reading your comment made me meditate on my question regarding the manner of the divided characteristic of the Antichrist’s kingdom, as for a Strong part and a weak part. Thanks.

    But first, let me explain what exactly I meant. I have been developing this understanding that there are two perspectives of much of the prophecies of Daniel, one historical and another exclusively eschatological. Under the historical perspective, I consider the four parts of Neb’s metallic statue in Daniel 2 to represent the Babylonian Empire, Medo-Persian Empire, Grecian Empire and the Islamic Empire/Caliphate. The political ideological and militarily aspects of the forth kingdom depicted in Daniel 2 is Islamic. So I consider the forth kingdom to be, in a very broad sense, the Islamic socio-geo-political entities within Islamic history. This forth kingdom represents the Islamic caliphates, sultanates, empires, dynasties, etc., as from inception with Mohamed, all through history, until the Antichrist’s final Islamic empire. As from inception, this forth kingdom starts very strong as iron, crushing and breaking to pieces all other kingdoms (Dan 2:40). Then in verse Dan 2:41, this kingdom suffers division, as seen as the feet and toes of iron and of clay. This divided aspect can depict the sectarian division of Islam, basically between Sunni and Shia Islam, and consequently all other different subdivisions and sects, cults within Islamic religion. As you have well mentioned, the sectarian division of Islam provides instability to rule the entire Islamic realm. But, there is another aspect of the divisional characteristic of this forth kingdom, which is more geo-political in nature, instead of religious. When the Caliphate grew to great empire, the difficulties to govern the whole dominion started to appear in the Abbasid Caliphate, which would eventually break into several different geo-political entities. In the 10 century, the once huge and one Islamic empire controlled by the caliph fractured in to various dynasties and nations. Many Islamic dynasties appeared, however this did not make Islam disappear, there has always been strong forces in the region, keeping Muslim world intact, and many other weaker nations and dynasties. This makes most of Islamic history comprised of strong and weak geo-political entities, until today.

    Now, regarding the eschatological perspective, were I have questions about the characteristics depicted of each kingdom described in Daniel 2 that I mentioned in my post, each part of the statue represents contemporaneous nations, which I identify, respectively, as Iraq, Iran, Turkey led four nation confederation and finally the Antichrists empire. The Antichrist’s empire starts with a 10 nation confederation (10 horns of Daniel 7) but grows as he conquers and controls many other nations. As meditating yesterday on how the description of a strong kingdom and then a divided with a strong part and a weak part could apply to the Antichrist’s empire, it seemed to me that the initial phase were only 10 nations comprise the Antichrist’s empire could represent the strong aspect as the legs of iron, and then, while conquering and controlling other nations, these could be the fragile and most weak aspect of the Antichrist’s empire, represented by the clay part of the feet and toes.

    One observation I make is that I do not view the toes in the metallic statue of Daniel 2 corresponding to the 10 horns of Daniel 7. Nowhere in the text of Daniel 2, does Daniel count the toes in the number of 10, and neither he interpret them as kings.

    Blessings,

    Perry Brown

  • Willard
    Posted at 19:09h, 04 January

    Zech makes an interesting comment about the sons of Zion and the sons of Greece just before the Lord returns – what really stands out for me is that we are told that the SONS OF ZION WILL RISE AGAINST the sons of Greece with the Lord in the lead and sling stones will be used which I think MAY BE a reference to missile warfare – I always remember David chose 5 sling stones (first missile attack in the bible) when he went against Goliath he used only one – what were the other 4 for did he think he was going to miss 4x ??? I doubt it I think they MAY BE and I stress maybe a reference to 4 future wars that Israel won – war of independence – the 1967 war – and the 1973 war and the final one – these 3 wars involved all of the surrounding nations at the same time

    Zec 9:13 I will bend Judah as I bend my bow and fill it with Ephraim. I will rouse your sons, O Zion, against your sons, O Greece,and make you like a warrior’s sword.

    The LORD Will Appear

    Zec 9:14 Then the LORD will appear over them; his arrow will flash like lightning. The Sovereign LORD will sound the trumpet; he will march in the storms of the south,
    Zec 9:15 and the LORD Almighty will shield them. They will destroy and overcome with slingstones. They will drink and roar as with wine; they will be full like a bowl used for sprinkling the corners of the altar.
    Zec 9:16 The LORD their God will save them on that day as the flock of his people. They will sparkle in his land like jewels in a crown.

  • good4u
    Posted at 03:03h, 05 January

    Hi Perry!

    About your reservation regarding an analogy between the ten-horned beast (Daniel 7) and the ten toes on the feet on the great statue (Daniel 2) and the seeming omission by the prophet Daniel from saying the feet had 10 toes or interprets them as kings. This is true, Daniel does not expressly state this as a condition of the statue. But really, is this not possibly over-thinking something that is a merely a given in the mind of Daniel? Yes, it could be something as a general analogy as you say like strong/weak nations, but what would be the criteria in the prophecy of Daniel to determine this status? How would one know how it is determined that a nation is “strong” or “weak” in the view of Daniel? I don’t see a way to determine that given in the Book of Daniel prophetically.

    To me a straight-forward reading of this passage about the clay-iron mixture regarding the feet would be the clearest hermeneutically. Since it basically says that iron and clay do not adhere to make the feet cohesive. The best way I can understand this is that those who are Sunni and those that are Shia’ within the Caliphate will eventually be in conflict with each other making long-term governance unstable. Maybe it should be left at that and not read more or less into that verse regarding the feet.

    Blessings!

  • Perry Brown
    Posted at 16:51h, 05 January

    good4u,

    When Daniel was a youth, by the help of God, he interprets Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. Not only he interprets the dream, he tells Neb. the actual dream. When we read theses verses we really should not include things that Daniel did not say. One example, the legs of iron. Daniel never emphasized the number of legs being two as representing anything in the dream. However, many prophecy students who adhere to the view that identifies the legs (forth kingdom) as the Roman Empire usually give explanation that the two legs represent the Western and Eastern Roman Empire, one for each leg. This is reading in to the text. Daniel never intended to explain or interpret the legs as being two different aspects of the legs of iron. The dual aspect of this kingdom is only represented by the material of which it was made of, iron and clay, and not the left and right leg. The same goes with the toes. Daniel never intended to explain or interpret the toes as being 10. Again, the multiple aspect of the toes is shown with the description of iron and clay. Counting the toes as 10 in this dream and corresponding them to the 10 horns of Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 and 17 is not what the text is requiring from us. Intrinsically, our mind associates toes with the number of 10, because we all have 10 toes on our feet. Our mind also wants to associate the toes in Daniel 10 with the 10 horns. 10 matches 10, right? That’s the natural mind working this thing out. Many, many people have done this. But, this is not what Daniel is telling us.

    I am not saying that the beginnings of the Antichrist’s Empire is not comprised of ten nations or kings. To understand the nature of this conglomeration of 10 kings/nations, I do not look at Daniel 2, rather Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 and 17.

    The feet and the toes of the statue are made of iron and clay, right? If the toes would represent the 10 kings, thus the 10 horns of the beast in Revelation 13 and 17, how would we reconcile the divided and not adhering together nature of the 10 toes with the onemindedness any unity of the 10 horns of the beast in Revelation 13 and 17. It said in Rev 17:13, that the 10 kings will be of one mind giving the power of their nations to the Antichrist. Also, verse Rev 17:17 says that God had put in their hearts to agree and fulfill His will. These 10 kings will be the ones leading the armies of the nations to wage war against the Jesus (Rev 17:14). These 10 kings altogether hate the harlot, Mystery Babylon, and will seek to destroy her.

    The descriptions of the toes and the 10 horns of Revelation 13 and 17 seem to be contradictory. The toes are shown as divided and not adhering together, part strong, part fragile. On the other hand, the 10 kings described in Revelation 17 are shown as in unity, of one minded, executing one purpose, and all strong, and does not described any fragility once all 10 of them will try to kill Jesus and His army when He comes back.

    The way I see the toes of the statue is just another part of the body in connection with the feet and legs. The divided aspect is not specific to the number 10 as in the 10 kings or nations, but as part of the whole Antichrist’s empire.

    The components of the feet and toes of iron and clay describes some aspects of this kingdom:
    1. Divided kingdom – political aspect, and could be religious aspect, since Islam ideology has a very political nature to it.
    2. Despite the division, strength or firmness – dominating and power aspect imposed by the military aspect
    3. Part strong and part fragile or brittle – military aspect (strong) and military defense weakness or even absence (fragile or brittle)
    4. Combined by the seed of man, not adhering to each other – ethnicity aspect, very diverse ethnicity within the empire, but with ethnic conflicts.

    To understand what the strength and weak aspects means, we should look at the text itself. In verse Dan:2:40, the kingdom will be strong as iron to crush and shatter other kingdoms, this means military power that destroys other nations. So, if strength is understood for strong military force and power, the weakness would a description of very fragile military power or even absence. That’s why I believe that the Antichrist’s empire will be comprised of a very strong military force (10 nation confederation) and weak and fragile nations that are sucked in by military coercion.

    Blessings,

    Perry Brown

  • good4u
    Posted at 19:59h, 05 January

    But Perry, aren’t you doing the same thing that you suggest that I’m doing when I said the feet had ten toes? To me, you are, you have your particular own interpretation that’s fine. I just don’t happen to agree that is what the verses say according to you and it cannot be proven as all of this is still future. We cannot go ahead of God and presume this is what the verses say. Daniel does not say what the length of time is that this “one mind” of the ten nation confederacy will endure the beast gives their power for “one” hour (Rev. 17:12) is it 10 days, 10 weeks, one year? How do we know? You don’t know the answer and neither do I.

    Joel is correct in my view, that we must tread very carefully as we study prophetic Scripture. To me your attempting to split hairs where none exist, but you are more than entitled to what you believe you see in prophetic Scripture. Just understand not everyone one will agree like me or see it the same way and I accept that you believe it, but I do not. We will agree to disagree. The only way we will know for sure that anyone is correct is when events come to pass and are verified. For none of us have all the pieces as God has designed. But it is fine to discuss anyway.

    Blessings!

  • Rita P
    Posted at 00:59h, 06 January

    Hey Joel
    with all the concordances in the Book Of Daniel, if the word for mix (referring to the iron and clay ) the word for mix is “arab” ?
    Could this be a literal meaning ?

  • Joel
    Posted at 01:09h, 06 January

    In the Aramaic, the word for mixed is simply “arab”. The word “mixed” is where the word for Arab actually derived. The commandment was given to Ishmael and Esau both not to intermarry with the desert pagans. Yet they did. The result was the mixed ones: Arabs. Even as the word was given to Daniel concerning the next Empire to conquer Babylon: “Peres” which Daniel interpreted as a play on words to mean the Paras (Persians), so also would the final Empire be an Arab Empire. Of course it will include much more than just arabs, but its began as a Arab empire with Islam as its vehicle to export Arab supremacist throughout the world. To be clear, this is not to express any anti-Arab sentiment whatsoever. It is simply identifying the primary nature of the fourth empire.

  • steve
    Posted at 14:19h, 06 January

    Just an observation. Instead of looking at the Middle East in the context of the territorial mapping of post WW1 in which British and French drew arbritary lines for states, it may be helpful to look at the area in terms of the Assyrian Empire/Ottoman Empire mapping. When looking at the area in this way, the beast could well come from the region that is now Turkey and also be considered an Assyrian. This would eliminate the so called contradictions.

  • Perry Brown
    Posted at 23:01h, 07 January

    good4u,

    It’s OK to disagree. Everyone has his/hers own way to read and understand writing. One thing we agree on, that the political and power of the Antichrist’s empire will comprise of 10 nations. That’s the most essential.

    Blessings,

    Perry Brown

  • Willard
    Posted at 01:53h, 08 January

    Below is an excellent study source and guide for the historic empires of the ME world – the Greek or Hellenistic seem to be the largest and also covers all or most of the ME countries we see in turmoil today – it also includes the Assyrian and Babylonian empires for the most part

    The Digital Archaeological Atlas of the Holy Land

    http://gaialab.asu.edu/DAAHL/GML.php

  • Peter Sollorz
    Posted at 09:13h, 14 May

    Hello, I just had a look at the above information that you provided, thank you by the way, and I was wondering, since you mention you have over 100 commentaries, if you know of 1 good Bible commentary that comments on the whole Bible, Old and New Testaments, in one complete version. I have a very good Bible commentary, but it still has references to Rome as the antichrist. I appreciate any information you may provide. I apologize for taking up your time as I know you are very busy. Thank you: Peter Sollorz.

  • Linda Martion
    Posted at 15:00h, 25 April

    Hi Joel, I’ve been following you for sometime now. I’m a 71 yrs young little o grandma in a remote area of Ky and I get it! I was raised on all the pre-trib, revived Roman Empire, etc.,etc.. At first, about 15 yrs ago, I was disgruntled with my faith and ask the Lord to show me the truth . God begin to call me to take a look at the Jewish roots of my faith and wow!, a whole new world opened up to me. There’s too much to share here, but one thing led to another as God led me to ministries like yours and others to see the whole Mid-East picture of the end times. I have wondered many times of how easily it has come to me, when great teachers like David Reagan and others are so blind. I wonder how they will fare when it all comes down to the wire. I love the way you are so open to debate with them and you always show so much love. They in turn don’t seem to be able to return the love as easily, so that really makes me suspicious of them. Please keep up the good job in this. I know it’s not easy to go against the grain sometimes.

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