34 Responses

1. Good programme Joel, with some good points.

   Haven’t had chance to fully digest your book yet, but i did read the chapter on Rome.
   Something that helped me to see that its probably not Rome is this( Though i could be wrong).

   The Harlot rides and is used by the beast , is separate from the beast as it destroys her……………..
   Whereas Rome is stated as being the 6th head of the actual beast, being part of his Kingdom.. In my simplistic way
   i’m lead to conclude that Rome like Egypt will be trodden down by the beast, and become his territory. I’ve read that
   conquering Rome is on the islamic to do list, and with the present migration swings, Rome’s demographics could make
   that conquest very simple.

   So i agree with you about Rome.

2. I was doing a little research on Ancient Babylon over the weekend. It looks like Nabonidus, father of the last king of Babylon Belshazzar, had a southern palace in Tayma, Saudi Arabia. Interestingly even he had a preference for the moon god, Sin over Marduk. and wanted to elevate Sin to the highest status over Marduk..

3. I must be a partial historicist. I tend to think the four horseman as part of history. Is there such a view? White – age of Constantine, Red-Age of the Islam, Black, the age of markets and trade. The last horse just looks like it ushers in the age of the Antichrist. because of what follows it ” hades…”

4. Linda, great observation – thanks for sharing!

5. That would be historicism. Understanding the parallels between the four horseman and the Olivet Discourse makes such views untenable for me. I have little doubt they all fall within the final seven year period.

6. Thanks for your input, Joel, I will have to study this more. I am planning to get Nelson Walter’s two books on this subject. Currently on a tight budget.

7. Hello all…and Gary C in particular. I have finished Nelson Walter’s book entitled Rapture: Case Closed and have his Revelation Deciphered on the shelve for reading in the near future. Joel and Nelson have helped me greatly in putting significant structure to the end times scenario. My encouragement to you, in regard to the four horseman, is to look at the parallel track of Matthew 24 and Revelation 6.

8. I live in South America. To say that the Catholic Church persecute protestants in here is completely inaccurate. Doesn’t match the reality. People in the USA are sometimes completely off when talking about other parts of the world. American protestants should stop this kind of nonsensical statements regarding the Catholic Church. Christians should definitely start studying more the Church fathers, Christians who lived way before the divisions, and this kind of nonsense regarding Catholicism would completely dissipate.

9. I would love to hear you debate Joel Osteen
   Thx Kaye

10. Joel I have read your book on Mystery: Babylon. Have you seen this video, which was just posted at Alan Kurschner’s website today:

    “David Rosenthal, Director of Operations at Zion’s Hope, shares about what is taking place in the Middle East, particularly Saudi Arabia, and the creation of a new metropolis on the Red Sea, and the potential implications for end-times.””

    http://www.alankurschner.com/2018/02/05/is-saudi-arabias-city-neom-mystery-babylon/

    Pretty stunning!!

11. Marcelo,

    In parts of Mexico in particular, persecution of Protestants by Roman Catholics is very real. This is not a matter of ignorance by Americans, but statistical, verifiable reality. When folks like you mock such a notion, you only empower more persecution.

    http://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/january/top-50-countries-christian-persecution-world-watch-list.html

    http://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2016/february/pope-francis-catholic-persecution-protestant-mexico-chiapas.html

12. I have been raised in the Evangelical world for 65 years, but I could never buy into the various Babylon interpretations, ie. Rome, Jerusalem, New York City, the apostate church. I was leaning toward a revived Babylon about 15 years ago, just because scripturally the others did not fit. I don’t remember when your book came out with the title Antichrist: Islam’s Awaited Messiah, or something close to that, but it filled in gaps in my interpretation that had stood my entire life. I appreciate your detailed dissection of the scriptures and the simple application.
    The key for me for several years now has been I John, “This is the antichrist…”. He who denies the Father and the Son. It jumped out to me again when you applied it to the Catholic Church. Thanks again for taking the time to highlight some very obvious points that somehow escape the notice of most involved in these discussions. I appreciate your depth with simplicity. I also appreciate your concession that these explanations may not be exactly correct, but I like you do not believe applying these passages to the present worldwide Islamic movement is just another adaptation to fit current events. It seems more likely to be the unveiling of a demonic plan that has somehow stayed in relative obscurity for hundreds of years. Thanks Joel! Your study is greatly appreciated!

13. Indeed Ed. Many Blessings to you!

14. I will say though perhaps the pope will play a role as the false prophet. Your thoughts??

    https://www.breakingisraelnews.com/102300/erdogan-pope-form-unholy-anti-trump-alliance-control-jerusalem/?utm_source=Breaking+Israel+News&utm_campaign=8b852f588d-BIN_morning_2_18&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_b6d3627f72-8b852f588d-86848221&mc_cid=8b852f588d&mc_eid=f1445d167c

15. Dear Joel,

    Thank you for composing ‘The Underground’, I’m watching the program with much interest.

    Great to see you referring to the World Watch List ranking on persecution of Christians. I’m part of the team in Open Doors composing this ranking annually and would like to let you know that the most recent version (WWL2018) is available now via: https://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian-persecution/world-watch-list/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI5d7iuvuV2QIVDeMbCh1cowE3EAAYASABEgJNI_D_BwE

    Many blessings from the Netherlands!

16. Joel, the links you posted reffer to rogue Christians, people who claim to be Christians but are, in the contrary, planting division, prejudice and many other things. There’s no policy within the Catholic Church to persecute protestants. What you have are criminals who claim to be Catholics, and other criminals who claim to be Evangelicals. But what is very true in Mexico is the persecution that both Evangelicals and Catholics suffer in the hands of the narcos.

    Just to be clear, I like your approach and I pretty much agree on everything you have said regarding Islam, Middle East, prophecy and so on. I said in my comments just about my disagreements, but I have not a negative view about you, there are many other topics that I agree with you on. I’m not against you, quite the opposite, just to be clear.

17. Another good one Joel. Seems pretty clear to me!

18. I like that you make your case from the scriptures not from the historical record. Everything must fit perfectly not almost.

19. Hi Joel,
    I enjoyed your presentation. No, i do not envision the entire middle east embracing Roman Catholicism, but i do envision a merge between the two major religions, as well as all other religions to make the one false smorgasbord religion of the world in which the anti-christ will operate. You can see the beginnings of it, as it slowly unfolds in the name of the “emerging church.” We are just at the cusp Joel, your getting ahead of yourself. Things are slowly evolving and will change. The pope is already beginning to embrace Islam as a religion of love and peace, and evangelical leaders don’t seem to be preaching the true gospel any more. Life is going to be difficult for our Christian grand kids and great grand kids. Lord help us.

    Julie

20. Joel,
    I keep up with yours and Mark Davidson’s website. He briefly mentioned in the comments that he doesn’t believe the Great Harlot is Mecca. Some more things that I have found is a lot of prophecy toward a major destruction of Saudi Arabia. You are exactly, correct stick with Scripture not speculative newspaper appearances.

21. Hi Joel,
    Thanks for your great work mate.
    Have you ever thought about writing a commentary on the book of Revelation that incorporates the Islamic AC perspective?
    A comprehensive one for believers, and then a shorter summarised/simplified version in plan language for non christians –
    using the witness of prophecy and eschatology as an evangelism tool to unbelievers?

    Blessings,
    Matt

22. Why does mystery Babylon have to be a literal place? Does the context of writing demand a geographic region or could it just be a symbolism for A.C.s rule of laws or fulfillment of his dictatorship status in a specific timeline!

    Joel: Please make a case that God meant a specific region or geography.

23. I address this specific issue quite extensively in my book. Briefly, the angel, (as he offers the literal interpretation of the symbolism), says that it is a city, eight times. The city is not a metaphor for the symbolic woman. Rather, a city is the interpretation of the symbolism. This is how metaphors and their interpretation work.

24. Joel, this is off topic but I’ve been wanting to ask you this question that you and Kushner have raised in my mind. I am convinced of this concept of pre Wrath that you two believe in and that raises an interesting conflict with what I’ve been taught my whole life. I’ve always been taught that the Rapture would result in immediate glorification or damnation depending on your status with Christ. And your guy’s interpretation that his appearance will result in a gradual elimination of the enemies of Christ gives me a different structure, meaning people will actually witness his appearance and then still have time to repent. If I’m understanding you wrong can you please clarify and correct what I’m taking away from your teaching. Thanks very much.

25. Dear brother Joel , is the debate available in downloadable file format ? Instead of sending the USB by post, this is a very convenient way to get the material. It avoids delays and additional charges.

26. Hi Wilson,

    Not yet. We are working on it.

27. In my opinion, I have no question, that many will repent after He returns.

28. It’s kind of interesting how the 32 year old Mohammad bin Salman (Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia) continues to shake things up. First the “corruption” purge in his own country of Saudi rivals. Second, the announcement of several mega-projects like Neom – with the intention of shifting the Saudi economy away from its reliance on oil. Third, reforms intended to give women more freedom in their own country. Fourth, Salman’s public rebuke of the triangle of evil (Turkey, Iran, and hard-line Islamist groups). Fifth, while in England, he just announced a commitment to interfaith dialogue as part of his domestic reforms. Some are calling Mohammad bin Salman a revolutionary while others are calling him an old-fashioned despot. It is kind of interesting how the big three Islamic powers (Turkey, Iran, and Saudi Arabia) seem to be headed for some kind of a collision.

29. Hi Joel. What about Zechariah 5:5-11? It could be linked to the end times since the very next verses in ch.6 talks about the four chariots and horses. The woman called “wickedness” is carried specifically to the land of Shinar. A house is built and established for her there on her own base (her original base?). Could this refer to mystery Babylon – an end time city that isn’t built yet? In Rev 17:3 John is carried into the wilderness/desert where he sees the woman. It could literally mean in a desert, somewhere desolate and inhabited. The city might not be built yet, right now hidden like the woman hidden in the ephah. Also interesting that this woman is lifted up between heaven and earth by two angelic figures, almost like a copy of God’s earthly and heavenly city Jerusalem. What are your thoughts on this?

30. It could, though it never specifically says anything about the end times. Could have been fulfilled when the first Caliphate was established in the area shortly after Muhammad’s death. The birth of the last days empire. ITs a tough passage, because, as I said, it never specifically says anything about the last days.

31. Hi Joel, I shared this video with a friend and he told me to check out Alberto Rivera online. Rivera was a Jesuit Priest who claimed that there’s evidence in the secret Vatican libraries proving that the Vatican created Islam. For this reason, my friend is convinced that the Vatican is in control and that the seat of Satan is in Rome. What do you know about this? Thank you

32. Rivera was a brazen fraud, traveling around American churches and fleecing the flock with his lies. He actually had warrants out for his arrest in a few states for all kinds of financial fraud. His own siblings say that he was a fraud and was never actually a priest. I can say for sure that his story is filled with horrific historical inaccuracies. When confronted on tape, he shucks and jives and makes lame excuse and then slips into a fit of rages. Total fraud.

33. Joel, I disagree with you, to me it appears that Rome fits the title “mystery Babylon ” in response to what the Scriptures show me. For example look at Rev 17:4 the woman was dressed in purple and scarlet. Look at the catholic church, which is in the Vatican, inside Rome. you have the college of cardinals and the college of bishops. They are also dressed in purple and scarlet. Then look at Rev 17:9, the 7 hills, is mecca on 7 hills? Rome does sit on 7 hills. These are just 2 reasons i see rome fitting for this title.

34. The color scarlet represents sin. Neither are the hills literal. They represent seven kingdoms. But yes, Mecca sits on seven hills. Yet you didn’t address any of the reasons I laid out in the video as to why Rome does not fit. Those must be addressed.