12 Responses

1. Very good article Joel! Thanks for the link. Hey, what do you think about his teaching on Daniel? Seems like pretty good stuff IMO. Peace in the Lord! 🙂

2. Samuel and I agree on many things, but disagree concerning Daniel 2, 7 and the fourth kingdom. Samuel sees the fourth kingdom as 100% future. I see it as the historical Islamic Empire (legs of iron and fourth beast) that will essentially be revived in the last days as a final antichristic empire (mixed feet and ten horns). In my opinion, Daniel 2 shows us that the feet of iron and clay represent a latter phase of the fourth kingdom, whereas Daniel 7:24 is also clear that the ten kings arise as a secondary and final phase of the fourth kingdom: “As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise” (Daniel 7:24). The kingdom does not arise with the ten horns, rather they arise out of it a latter time.

3. How do you see Rev 17:8? He makes a good point about the beast being one of the five kings (was) at the time of John, coming up out of the abyss. Do you see as this king as indwelling the body of the 8th? I have always been confused about this. 🙂

4. I see the 7 heads as representing both kingdoms and kings. It says as much when it calls the heads “mountains” which are a common biblical symbol for kingdoms. Then it says, they are also seven kings. So kings and kingdoms correlate.

   I could be wrong, but I believe Samuel limits this to kings, but not kingdoms per se. I see the 8th kingdom simply as a revival of the 7th kingdom. They are the same, yet distinct enough to be referred to as the 7th and 8th.

   The 8th king of course, is the Antichrist and the primary subject of the prophecy. He is the ultimate fulfillment of all preceding pagan kings represented by all of the 7 kingdoms.

   I see the 7th/8th kingdom as a clear correlation to the final, singular, yet dual-phased kingdom represented in Dan. 2 by the legs of iron (7th), out of which come the feet (8th) and in Dan. 7 as the fourth beast (7th), out of which come the ten horns (8th) at a later time (Dan. 7:24). In all three passages, (Dan. 2, Dan 7 and Rev 17) there is a singular kingdom that has two-phases. In each case, the final phase emerges directly out of that which immediately preceded it.

   I believe that the tense/timing of the phrase “The beast which was and is not” should be understood from the vantage point of the time of the end, when he will be present on the earth, and not from John’s chronological point of reference in the first century. We need to be very careful in how we understand the tense and timing of some of the elements and phrases in this passage, or we can become easily confused. If we demand for example the phrase to refer to the chronological point of John’s reference in the first century, then the entire passage IMO, becomes very confused, even making little sense, as various aspects of the vision are described in present tense, including the 8th beast etc. Yet we know that during John’s time, the 8th was obviously still future. So though it uses present tense language, common sense dictates that we understand it as yet future. I apply the same reasoning to the phrase “the beast which was and is not”.

   This passage (Rev. 17) must be understood in light of what we have already learned in Dan 2 and 7. If we demand that the 8th beast be one of the previous 5, this is in conflict with what is revealed in the statue of Daniel 2 and the vision of Daniel 7. The feet come out of the legs and the horns come out of the fourth beast. The feet do not come out of the thighs, belly, or head, nor the horns come out of the leopard, bear or lion, etc. Do you see what I am saying? They come out of that which immediately precede it. Its actually much simpler than some make it, IMO.

   But yes, I see the demon that comes up out of the Abyss as possessing the final man/king of the 7th/8th kingdom.

   That was probably incredibly confusing. In any case, it really matters little what I think. I could be wrong. God will do what he will do regardless of what I think. 🙂

   Blessings

5. No, it helps clear up a lot of things. Thanks Joel! We are all trying to understand the truth about all these things, and God has given you understanding. Thanks for sharing! Peace, in the Lord! 🙂

6. Outstanding prophetic teaching Joel from Samuel Clough. It explained these two concepts of “fullness of the Gentiles” and “times of the Gentiles” clearly even for a novice prophetic student who is just learning about this biblical subject. It is important to have a wide variety of teaching levels, if possible, for all prophecy students. We who are more advanced should never forget about basic training or teaching.

   I can’t help but notice one thing that kept coming to my remembrance as I was reading this article. To me, this singular event of the desolation of Jerusalem by these armies will be precursor of the AOD causing the fifth seal to break open. Anyone else besides me, think this way? Or am I a fruit cake? 🙂

   Blessings!

7. Steve,

   Samuel is a good friend by the way, with some truly profound insights. He will feature in part 2 of my forthcoming film project.

8. Joel, first an awesome article. Great scholarship.

   Second, very good discussion with Steve about the Beast that was and is not. This is a very confusing section of scripture to me. I have two general theories on what this means. In both cases I view it as the Beast from the Abyss that possesses the man, the antichrist who is the one who was once and is not. It is at that moment the AC goes “into perdition (destruction)” much as others go into a profession. He becomes the destroyer.

   So basing my thinking on the AC as both a man and a demon possessor, I thought of two possible scenarios for who the demon possessor previously possessed.

   1. The return of either the 12th Imam or Mohammed. This would of course fit nicely with the Islamic AC theory as Muslims are looking for something like this.
   2. The return of a previous King of Babylon, either Nimrod or Nebuchadnezzar.

   I lean toward the return of a Babylonia King due to the overwhelming amount of references to Babylon and Mystery Babylon in Revelation. Also the number 666 fits so nicely with the Babylonian occult and the sigilla solis (a “magic” cube of the numbers 1 thru 36 which when added together equals 666). “count the number of the beast” Revelation 13:18. Nimrod, king during the tower of Babel days, is an interesting choice, finally returning to finish his one world government dream.

9. Thanks Joel,
   Another top article. The ‘times of the gentiles’ issue got me thinking about Revelation 11:1-2 – where the angel is asked to measure the temple and the altar,‘but to leave the outer court as it has been given to the gentiles’. From a futurist perspective, it’s clear the biblical data indicates a third rebuilt temple in Jerusalem in the last days. I understand that Dr Asher Kaufan has suggested a theory that the 1st & 2nd temples were located north of where the Dome of the Rock now stands, and the dome therefore could be the ‘Court of Gentiles’ in Rev.11.
   Is it possible that a rebuilt temple and the dome of the rock could ‘peacefully’ co-exist on the temple mount, until the AC desecrates the temple mid trib. sparking the trampling of Jerusalem for 42 months –(ushering in the ‘times of the gentiles’). The false peace that the AC will bring may involve a peace covenant that culminates in an historic agreement allowing the Jews to rebuild their temple alongside the dome. Is this plausible? It ties in well with an Islamic AC scenario.

   I’d be keen to know your thoughts Joel on the relationship b/t the location of a rebuild temple and the reference to the ‘outer court’ and the times of the gentiles? Thanks for all your Kingdom work mate. Blessings from the land ‘down under’
   Matt

10. Thank you for the much clearer understanding of the time of the Gentiles. I have a question. When the AOD appears half-way through the 7 years, is this the point at which Muslims realise that the Antichrist is their Mahdi? If so, surely this would result in millions of Muslims now rather radical crowding Jerusalem and really trampling it. They would believe that Allah is now giving them the victory. But would it necessarily lead straight away to armies being involved?

11. For clarity Val, We do not know that anyone will ever actually claim to be the Mahdi. Of course, it is entirely possible. But we need to be careful of being dogmatic on anything that is not in Scripture. The basis for understanding Muslim apocalyptic is to understand what Muslims are expecting. Perhaps the Antichrist will use the Mahdi traditions for his own ends, but we will not know until that time comes.

12. Maybe this will be considered off topic. I have become very interested in the person know as the False Prophet since reading ‘Antichrist Islams Awaited Messiah’. I believe that this person’s role in future events is seriously downplayed. I see this man’s importance as being extremely influential, in many regards even more so than the Antichrist himself. The Antichrist could not attain the power he will wield without him. Indeed the whole world will worship him not because of his power or authority, but directly due to the miracles the false Prophet will exercise openly and without any reasonable doubt to reasonable men. The worldwide paradigm shift which will occur due to his authentic miracles cannot be underestimated yet it seems to be largely ignored among prophetic teachers. The entire mindset and belief system of the most powerful areas on earth will be turned upside down. Every atheist and agnostic, the people who in effect rule the earth at present, will be completely discredited to the extreme in the eyes of everyone including they themselves. This man, in what appears to be a very brief time, will single handedly have the greatest evil effect on the minds of men in history. Without him the Beast is nothing more than just another powerful, conquering despot, but with him he becomes what he is to be. The Beast could not gain his legitimacy in the eyes of the world without him. He is integral to the success of the Beast. He is the executioner of the saints, not the first Beast. I could go on, but I think, hope, my message is clear. This man is not addressed as he should be by those of us who speak of future events. In short what I am saying is that this man will be responsible for a worldwide paradigm shift unprecedented in history and in a very, very, quick time. Nothing like it in history, even the effect of the first advent cannot be compared as concerns it’s IMMEDIATE influence on worldwide mentality.
    Paradigm shift to the extreme