100 Responses

1. Pretty much.

2. I remember reading in the eighties where Wilkerson and Dudaman both claimed America as M. Babylon. Does not “mother” indicate the beginning or origin like in somehow it connects to a rebirth of a Babylon itself in the end?

3. “Mother of” is an eastern expression simply meaning the biggest. “Th Mother of all battles” and that sort of thing. Its intended to be a reiteration of / appositional phrase relating to “Babylon the Great.”

4. If Egypt will be honored, and saved per Isaiah 19, even after all she had done to Israel….and Israel was commanded to not hate the Egyptian in Deut 23:7, because Egypt served as a safehaven for Jacob, then I believe the USA cannot be Mystery Babylon….because just as Egypt is honored at the end of days, so will the USA, despite her sin and coming chastisement, she will be recognized for the good she extended to Jacob

5. Great presentation, love the revelation knowledge and heart for the Muslim. Can you be more specific? Babylon the great is Mecca, Saudi Arabia correct? Jesus was bold and said drink of my blood and eat of my flesh or have no part of me, the people thought he meant cannibalism, but only the true believers understood. he took a crowd of 1,000 and wedeled them down to 12. just saying.

6. My thoughts in saying this Joel was that it goes back to the beginnings of Shinar and the empire of Babylon that took Israel into exile and then the vestiges going into a Islamic Middle East country(i.e Saudi Arabia from which I understand that area was a part of the Babylonian empire). Every thing about Babylon is contrary to the Israel and the Kingdom of God from the beginning was my thought.

7. Hi Joel,
   Thank you for your work. I’m really appreciating your Underground videos. I may be jumping ahead here, but what are your thoughts about the Whore of Babylon being the financial & spiritual headquarters of the Islamic world namely Mecca and/or Jeddah in Saudi Arabia? I’ve heard that idea being proposed under the Islamic AC model and it makes sense & meets the criteria below:

   (In a desert region, near a port, a corrupt place of trade & commerce, a place of excess & luxury, main instigator of Christian & Jewish persecution, head of an idolatrous/false religious system)

   I noticed they are building the tallest building in the world in Jeddah, The Kingdom tower – a modern day tower of babel. I noticed in Revelation 18:17-19, it alludes to the city being near a shipping port. Could Jeddah fit this criteria? Would be interested to know your thoughts. Thanks Joel.

8. The main reason I do not believe the United States is “Mystery Babylon” is because, as Joel has stated many times, the Bible is Middle Eastern centric, Israel centric, and Jerusalem centric. No doubt the whole world will feel the weight of the anti-Christ, but the locus of the end times events is in that region. That said, we need to be praying for this country, confessing our sins and repenting, even as Daniel did for himself and for his people in Daniel 9.

   I look forward to more of these videos.

9. I believe like others here that it is Mecca.. It is also a literal city where this false religion got started and is the CITY where all of Islam goes to worship today around the Black stone. The old testament will even reference to what one reads in revelation of this harlot. Google some of these and u will find the reference in the old testament.. Babylon has fallen has fallen. Babylon was a golden cup in the Lords hand, he made all the nations drink and now the nations are mad.. We would have healed babylon but she is not healed, and now let everyone go back into his own country.. The destruction is heard from the sea, the shipmasters weep and wail when they see the smoke of her burning..

   This is a little off topic here but i am now thinking this false prophet to come is Islams Isa. The other beast rising up out of the earth has 2 horns and tells everyone to worship the beast that was wounded and did live.. The islamic kingdom is divided into 2 sects, the Sunni and the shia, you have 2 horns in revelation of this second beast and telling them to give allegiance to the Antichrist.

10. Joel,
    Good exegesis of the Word, relying on sound interpretation rather than emotionalism. Looking forward to a future Underground where you spell out to whom you think Mystery Babylon is referring (although I think I already know, initials SA).

11. Thank you so much for your writing about America NOT being Mystery Babylon. The opposing view seems to be all I read and has become so pervasive with many pastors, teachers and lay people. Now I have another tool to help direct some of these folks to Truth!

12. Thanks Joel

    As Lori just said this is a tool to show the misunderstanding of many. I’ve even heard it said that it’s the uk, which is rather mad. So glad that there is somewhere balanced for these things to be taught.

    From what i can gather its all about the context of the IS in verse 18. (Past, Present or Future.) I’ve always read the IS as being present context, as in the sixth head IS in verse 10, which to be fair i’ve always thought quite reasonable.

    If indeed the IS in verse 18 is future looking, then that’s a different story. Never connected the “Mother of” as meaning “biggest” with regard to Rev17, it makes good sense.

    While i concede that the EU persae may not play a role in the beast kingdom,
    Due to the sixth head, I’m having difficulty omitting Rome/Italy actually playing any part, either by deceit or conquest. But time will tell.

    Have to say this episode makes alot of sense. Thanks for permitting me to comment, were all striving to get there, You are being a great help.

13. Just recently found your website and am reading your books. Learning a lot, thank you!!
    Question for Joel or anyone please! I have been asked to lead a study group at our church. I really want to bring some of these topics up and really want to study these end times prophecies. Does anyone know of any good ones?? I wasn’t sure if taking the Islamic Antichrist and having people study this who haven’t studied a lot of end times events would be too much. Thoughts? Thanks!

14. I would use Mideast Beast.

15. I believe Mystery Babylon is Satan’s System, a system of influence related to this evil spirit. All pagan entity comes from Satan. He takes the real truth and places it with his false truth, with his system. He is the antichrist, he hates, he kills, and opposes God’s truth.

    Mystery Babylon started with Nimrod and it grew and grew in different versions. God says get Come out of her, my people, because we worship what we do not know. We worship the god of this world. Mystery Babylon is Satan’s System.

    Thank you Joel for all your good works. God Bless!

16. It is a system yes, but it is a specific city. It is called a city 8 times and is described in ways that can only be applied to a literal city.

17. Yes Joel, I agree and I agree that city is in the Middle East. Thanks again!

18. Thank you Joel, for a very clear, rational interpretation of this passage. Also for the call to pray for revival for our nation, which could continue to be a major sending ground for the gospel to the nations.

19. Question for Joel or anyone: Why does God let Satan loose at the end of the thousand year millennial kingdom? Will people be tempted to sin, again, and possibly lose their salvation?

20. Why the Lord allows this is a difficult question to answer with certainty, as the Bible does not clearly state why the Lord allows it. But I would suggest the Lord will allow this to demonstrate once and for all to man their inability to govern themselves and serve Him on their own. Even with Jesus governing them, they will still rebel, thus demonstrating their utterly sinful and rebellious nature and vindicating God’s goodness and mankind’s need for Him.

    As for the final rebellion, mind you those who enter the millennium in their resurrected glorified bodies (you and I) will by no means rebel. Only some who were born during the millennium, still in their natural bodies.

21. Great presentation, however, I am pretty sure Revelation is pointing to Jerusalem as being “the Harlot that rides the beast”. The sad truth is Israel, even to this day, has abandoned God and his gift of salvation through Jesus Christ. They have become lost just as the rest of the nations.
    I think God ultimately wanted them to be a light to the world but they ultimately became the leaders of the rebellion. Remember who the leaders chose when offered Jesus or Barabbas?
    As a Christian it is hard to accept Jerusalem as the Harlot. I think we will see Israel repent of their harlotry and once again turn to the one who they have pierced.
    Until then we as Christians should take heed to the warning,”come out of her my people, lest you share in her judgement”.
    God bless Mr. Richardson.

22. Christopher,

    First, thank you for not being as rude and aggressive as you have in past efforts to post here on this issue. Like all of the various popular positions out there, there are a couple of arguments in favor of Jerusalem, but also several fatal flaws with this view. While Mystery Babylon is destroyed forever and left as a smoking testimony of God’s final judgment on her wickedness. Jerusalem, however, specifically Mount Zion, is repeatedly stated through out the Scriptures to be the specific future location of Jesus’ throne, forever. This gaping contradiction has left some to argue that the future Jerusalem will be moved, but this argument falls down and is without any solid proof texts. Babylon is also primarily described not just as a place of great wealth, but as a global powerhouse that holds both religious and financial sway over the kings of the earth. Jerusalem has never met this criteria, nor is there any indicator that she will suddenly develop into a city of such great wealth anytime soon. Babylon is an entity that sits near a port or body of water, as all the merchants at sea look upon her smoldering judgment. Jerusalem sits some 40 miles inland, up in the mountains. Throughout the prophets, Jesus is portrayed as returning to deliver his people in Jerusalem from the surrounding nations. This is why the primary types of the Antichrist throughout Scriptures are gentile invaders, Antiochus Epiphanies, Nebuchadnezzar, the Assyrian, and other gentile invaders. The Antichrist is opposed to the God of the Temple, he does not pretend to worship God. This is why his primary followers are gentiles, not the Jewish people. When Jesus returns, he delivers Jews from captivity among the surrounding nations that are said to have taken then captive during the reign of the Antichrist. This only make sense if Jerusalem is taken by a gentile outside invader. I hope these few brief suggestions as to why Jerusalem as the Harlot do not work Scripturally has helped. As appealing as it has been for many anti-Semites who twist the Scriptures to their own destruction down through history to hold this view, I think a more careful analysis of this view shows it to be without merit. As always, I could certainly be wrong. God knows best.

    Blessings

23. Hi Christopher

    Just read your comment and something struck me. I’m sure you would agree that the land in and of itself is not the whore, but the “religious system” of that particular land, in the middle east it would be an Islamic system ect. People are not being called from a land but a system. In fact Gods people are being called “into the Land” as missionaries.

    It struck me that to say that Jerusalem is the whore, would be to say, that JUDAISM itself is the whore, as that is the system of the land. That simply could not be correct.

    I have no firm conviction as to the identity of the whore, but God would have to break His covenant with Abraham and his descendants, which he confirmed through Moses for it to be Jerusalem. (Deuteronomy 1:8) Its the very land they possessed then that would be theirs forever.

    Blessings to you Christopher

24. Actually Linda,

    The call within Revelation is to leave the actual land itself. It is a very literal geographic call to leave this place, not necessarily at any time, but in those last days, as the judgments are about to be poured out. This is, however, yet another reason why it could not be speaking of Jerusalem.

25. OK thank you for that Joel, I will be considering that point. though i am thinking that they would not need to leave before Gods Last wrath as they would be raptured. AS i mentioned before i am only a novice in these matters, so thank you for allowing me to partake. You appear to have great patience.(smiley face).

26. No worries. I just happen to be reading several commentaries on this very issue presently. It is, of course a call to leave the system as well. Don’t get me wrong. But the system is integrally tied to the city that is about to be judged. Once we establish that it is a literal city and not merely a system, then this becomes clear. Within the text, the harlot woman is the metaphor, but the references to it as a city are simply literal references. It is not a metaphor within a metaphor so to speak. Its very similar to Jesus’ call to flee to the mountains just before the Abomination of Desolation.

27. Thank you for your comments Joel and Linda. I will just present my strongest argument for Jerusalem being the harlot and you can share your comment or rebuttal.
    The main clue to understanding the harlot is Revelation 18:24:
    ” and in her was found the blood of prophets and saints and of all who were slain on the earth”.
    So the prophets were slain by her.
    Matthew 23:37:
    “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!”
    So I think this establishes Jerusalem as the killer of prophets. She also kills saints.
    Revelation 17:6:
    I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her I marveled with great amazement”.
    In the books of Acts, Stephen was stoned by the Pharisees in Jerusalem after saying, “Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers”…
    Acts 7:59- “And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, Lord Jesus receive my spirit.”
    In conclusion, that is my strongest argument for Jerusalem being the harlot of Revelation. There are things that may not seem to line up in other descriptions of her such as “she reigns over the kings of the earth”. Some things may not be seen as of yet but God see’s things from a different point of view. Thanks Joel for allowing me to share in the conversation.

28. Hi Christopher,

    Whether we are speaking of New York City, Jerusalem, literal Babylon, Rome, apostate Christianity, or any of the idea ideas out there, somewhat convincing arguments can be made for each position. Those who argue for NYC have issues that they adamantly are convinced point to NYC.

    The comments you made about J’lem are the best arguments used by those who support literal Jerusalem as the Harlot. They can be answered by the fact that while Jesus’ comments of J’lem were true historically, in no way does it require she perpetually fulfill the role of saint killer. Nazi Germany and the Holocaust, the Christian persecution of Jews down through history, Islamic persecution of Christianity (within 10 years after Muhammad died, the Muslims slaughtered over a million Christians), these all far surpassed Israel in terms of killing the holy people. So these statements should not be seen as absolutes nor as excluding other options. The more I have studied this option against the others, literal J’lem is probably my fourth pick down the list.

    In the end, the key is to find a candidate that fulfills not just a couple of the descriptions, but all of them. Jerusalem has some issues that are simply, I would argue, impossible to get around. Again, as I said, I could be wrong and God knows best.

    Now, how would you address the issues that I brought up? How do you reconcile the reality that on one hand, Jerusalem is called the city of the Great King, the future throne of Jesus, on Mount Zion, and yet Babylon is said to be completely destroyed and smolder forever.

    What are your thoughts as to how Jerusalem will cause all of the Muslim nations around her to follow her religion and worship the Antichrist?

    How do you speculate that she will rise to become a global financial superpower?

    How do you address the issue that Jerusalem is said to ride the beast which represents the seven persecuting pagan kingdoms of history? (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome and I would argue, Islam). How does J’lem ride these historical beasts? Riding them suggests being in cahoots with them.

    Thanks for your thoughts.

    Blessings,
    Joel

29. Joel, thanks for the comment and follow up questions. I was being deliberately narrow in my approach to presenting my own understanding of scripture. The questions you pose are a bit more difficult but I will share my thoughts.
    I see a duality in scripture, one being earthly and one spiritual. We as Christians look to the New Jerusalem, which God grants us citizenship when we are reborn.
    Psalm 87:5,6:
    “And of Zion it will be said, This one and that one were born in her; and the Most High himself shall establish her. The Lord will record when, when he registers the peoples: “This one was born there.”
    When we come to Christ we are reborn as a natural born citizen of Zion (New Jerusalem).
    I believe the earthly Jerusalem will ultimately come to be a spiritual and financial capital on earth. I see the 3 major faiths coming together (Islam, Christianity, Judaism) for a united cause to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem. You know yourself that Muslims are coming around to the idea of Solomons temple.
    I think the major faiths have always looked to Jerusalem as the mother and birth place of their faith.
    While all these events will look to be good for mankind, (rebuilding of the temple, financial and spiritual capital, no walls, dwelling in peace) I think ultimately the antichrist steps on the scene to misdirect and mislead everyones anticipation of Gods kingdom coming on earth finally.
    “They will say Peace and Safety and then sudden destruction will come upon them, as travail upon a woman with child, and they shall not escape.”
    Now how does Jerusalem ride the beast? I don’t think riding means ‘in cahoot’ as you said. I think riding the beast means to be superior over and is able to overcome. Even though God gave Israel over to captivity, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, etc., they were always promised he would bring them back to the land and restore their capital.
    This time however it seems that the final beast will overcome Jerusalem and look to destroy Israel completely. So the question is, “what will Jerusalem do to play the harlot?”
    Revelation 17:17:
    “For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill his purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.”
    God surely will protect his temple but give the outer court to the gentiles when the destruction happens.
    I think as time progresses we will have a better understanding. God sees things differently so we always ask, “Lord give me eyes to see as you see.”
    I know I have failed to answer your questions completely but I am still trying to put the puzzle book called the bible together. We all have a piece of the puzzle and together in Christ we can get the big picture.
    God Bless you Joel

30. It clicked

    Of course Joel, i see what you are saying, i was forgetting (dah) that it is the ten kings that God uses to destroy the harlot, who then themselves are destroyed at the day of the Lord. So yes, i see the similarity with the warning to flee to the mountains in Math 24. I did know it was an actual city, but i always connected the call to flee, as to flee from the System, (dah again). Thank you very much.

    Christopher, if you don’t mind me saying, the main point here i think, is that the city of the whore will be destroyed forever, and the land that Israel possessed was promised them for ever, not in a different geographic position, but the very land they gained under Joshua. So i think that clearly
    cancels out Jerusalem. IM sure you will agree, none of us are called to defend a ‘doctrine’, but simply to seek truth, indeed God will open our eyes as we do. Bless you

31. Christopher,

    Thanks for your comments. For clarity, the world the Bible describes is not at all dualistic. It is not separated between the spiritual realm and the physical realm. The Greek worldview, which has sadly infiltrated and infected much of the Christian mind, is deeply dualistic. The Bible describes the earth below and the heavens, (plural) above. God sits in the third heaven, or at the height of the heavens. The Scriptures say the two will become one under Christ. During the millennium, it is not a spiritual city and a different earthly city. Yes, present day Jerusalem, as represented by Judaism, which reject Messiah, is in bondage. But the Lord will save the remnant, redeem Jerusalem and rule the nations from Mount Zion. His throne will be on the earth. The promised land will not be a smoldering ash heap. I hope this has helped.

    Bless you!

32. Thank you for this presentaion Joel. Very clear and direct. I also don`t think that America is the mystery babylon. So true that it was America that send and still does, most people with the good news of the Gospel.
    I have a question – any thoughts on what the many waters, seven hills and seven kings on which the harlot woman is sitting could be?

33. Hi Joel, thanks again for another great episode!

    I do believe that Jerusalem can’t possibly be Mystery Babylon, as God will never destroy Jerusalem, as the bible states that Jerusalem is the centre of the world. “Thus says the Lord GOD: This is Jerusalem. I have set her in the center of the nations, with countries all around her.” (Ezekiel 5:5). For the same reason, God won’t be changing the geographical location of Jerusalem either!

    Also, the people of Israel and Jerusalem can never be the ‘harlot’ described in Revelations, because for one thing there’s a great revival happening in Israel right now. Many Jews are realising that Jesus is their Messiah, thanks to ministries such as One for Israel and Messiah of Israel. Watch testimonies of Israeli Jews coming to know that Jesus is their Messiah in IMetMessiah.com for example. It gives my heart and soul great joy to hear these I can tell you! 🙂

    This is also a very informative video that reveals that Mystery Babylon is Mecca, and why it fulfills the bible prophecies. Hope you don’t mind if I post the link here, Joel. I think it resonates so much with your own teachings!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY20IFaWlsQ

    Thank you and God bless you always!

34. The many waters are peoples. The seven hills / kings are the seven historical persecuting kingdoms that sought to destroy the Jewish people. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Rome and Islam.

35. Joel,
    I don’t think there is such a thing as a “Greek Worldview” as you have stated. I think the Bible is very clear there are earthly, carnal, and worldly people who sow to the flesh and others who are spiritual and Godly.
    “God is spirit, and they that worship him must worship in spirit and in truth”-John 4:24
    “It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.”
    There is most definitely a spirit realm.
    “For the things that arrre seen are temporary, but the things that are unseen are eternal” -2 Corithians 4:18
    I believe scripture presents a strong case that Jerusalem is the harlot. Could you lay out on just the one point that Mecca kills the saints and prophets? If you have covered that point in one of you newest books please reference it so I can see your entire case for Mecca.
    Thanks for your patience.

36. Christopher,

    About to board a plane, forgive my brevity.

    If you do not know the difference between the Biblical worldview and the Greek worldview then many things in the Bible will be confusing and you will come to many wrong conclusions.

    For instance, when we receive “spiritual” bodies in the resurrection, they are most certainly not ghosts. They are physical, immortal bodies. They are not bodies like we have now, which die. But they are bodies nonetheless.

    Ironically, while saying you do not even believe there is a Greek Worldview, you are reading the word “spiritual” through a Greek Worldview and assuming it means immaterial. In the Bible, “spiritual” is not the same as an immaterial ghost. Angels have physical bodies.

    This is a big issue and I would highly encourage you to read my book When a Jew Rules the World.

    But there is not going to be an immaterial kingdom of ghosts that comes down from heaven and floats above the earth. Heaven and Earth will become one under His headship.

    That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him. (Ephesians 1:10)

    The Bible does not teach an earthly Jerusalem below smoldering and smoking (the same city God said He has placed His name on, the apple of His eye) and another “spiritual city” floating above it where God dwells with all of the ghosts.

    And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.” And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” (Revelation 21:2-5)

    Jesus has already received His physical body. He will come to reign on the earth and establish His kingdom here. We also will have resurrected, spiritual, glorified, physical bodies.

    Mecca / Said Arabia is the womb Islam was born from and continues to be the very heart of Islam. It is the religious capitol of the Islamic world, and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is the financial source of radical Islam globally today. Think of the fact that Islam wiped out 50% of global Christianity within 100 years of the advent of Muhammad. Today the greatest source of global persecution if radical Islam. It is very simple.

    Blessings

37. Hi Joel,

    you may have missed this request, I have no way to know. Do you have a private email address that I could use to share some information with you? If you don’t mind, send me an email.

    Yves P.

38. Joel,
    I didn’t know where to post this message since there is no “general” place to post, but I couldn’t pass up the opportunity to say this. I have a friend who has never really shown interest in Israel or subjects pertaining to Israel. On Sunday, he sat in my college class as his class was cancelled. I showed “End Times Eyewitness” since I am starting a study on how we should be living in light of the urgency of these last days, and he watched attentively. On Monday, he texted me asking for the name of the organization in Israel that I have given to financially (I have several, so I cleared that up with him). I asked him why and he said he wanted to help Israel/the Jews in some way financially. He has NEVER done anything of the sort, and I realized it was because of your documentary/teaching on showing support for God’s people in the video! This is just an encouragement to you to keep up the good work and for you to know there is concrete fruit! My friend is now planning a trip to Israel in March of 2016. AWESOME!!!

39. Hi Steven,

    Thank you so much for taking the time to share that. Those who touch God’s heart find their heart expanded in many ways. Thanks for what you are doing with the classes as well.

    Bless you

40. I am not sure why anyone would even dare to think of both USA and Israel as the mystery babylon. Why would God label 2 countries, who have been His greatest hand and feet, to spread God’s salvation to the whole world, as the mother of all harlots?

    No matter how far these 2 nations separate themselves from God, in the end God will continue to show his compassion and grace to them and even through chastisement and trials, God will gather his faithful nations to himself.

    Come on let’s talk and act as mature and wise as Apostle Paul. Even when he thought the Jews were broken off the branch, he had high hopes that Israel in the future, will be grafted again to Christ, because of his promised covenant to Abraham.

    Let’s look at the dessert nations such as S.A., and theories about them being the mystery babylon and not 2 nations that were after God’s heart for centuries.

41. Hi Joel,

    I want to thank you for all the wonderful work you are doing for the kingdom of Heaven. Your ministry is truly special and the body of Messiah desperately needs a voice like yours in these end times. I pray for God to continue to bless your ministry.

    I would have to respectfully disagree with your assessment about ruling out the US as mystery babylon. I think we have to look at other passages in addition to Rev 17-18 to get a clear picture of mystery babylon. The other scriptures describing end times Babylon include Isaiah 13, Jeremiah 50 and 51, and Habakkuk 2. Mystery Babylon is not only described as having a religion but also as being both an economic and a military power.

    Jeremiah 50:4 says that the people of Judah will turn toward Zion in the end times in the context of the destruction of Babylon. There are currently about 6 million Jews in Israel and outside of Israel the only country with a substantial number of Jews is the US with about 6 million. I don’t see another entity other than the US fulfilling this aspect of mystery Babylon.

    I think we do need to intercede on behalf of the people of the United States even if we believe it to be mystery Babylon, just like Abraham interceded for the people of Sodom and Gomorrah.

    I agree that the US is not a desert, however the US has great influence and control over the ancient desert of Babylon, the exact region John was referring to . I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the US has had military bases on and around the ancient ruins of Babylon: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/28/AR2009072802835.html

    When the tragic events of September 11 occurred the only Bible passage that survived from the twin towers was a passage from Genesis 11 about the Tower of Babel, I don’t think that was a coincidence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzGCeftLBzE=

42. Adam,

    Beyond Isa 13-14 and Jeremiah 50-51 (Which speak of the destruction of Babylon not the US), there are several other passages that Revelation 17 and 18 draws from. Not only does the passage draw from passages that point to Jerusalem as the Harlot throughout the OT, but also imagery tat would have led the early Church to look to Rome, and also Edom (Isa 34), Tyre (Ezekiel 28) and Nineveh (Nahum). The most significant of these of course are the two chapters in Isaiah and Jeremiah. However these two passage have historical as well as end time significance. The main passages that are clearly pointing to the end time Babylon are Rev 17-18 and a few references in Rev 14 and 16.

    The bottom line is no matter how many “hints” one might see that would lead on to look toward the US, the US simply does not conform to the most significant aspect of the prophecy, which is that Harlot Babylon represents the greatest false religion that world has ever know. This religion by the way is one and the same with the religion of the Antichrist, (See Rev. 14). And yes, the US is not in a desert. This is a critical aspect of the description. Simply because we had bases in Iraq would not be enough to explain why the angel would have taken John into a desert to see the Woman. Even as literal New Jerusalem is on a great hill, so also is Harlot Babylon in a literal desert. And of course, we have all but pulled out of any bases that we had in Iraq. Beyond this, we are not guilty for the blood of the saints, and we are not riding the beast (which goes all the way back to ancient Egypt, Assyria, Babylon Med-Persia, Greece, and Rome.) There are several other reasons as well, but these should be enough. Every effort I have seen to point to the US, in my opinion, is hermeneutically very weak and simply seems to me to be grasping at straws.

    God knows best.
    Blessings,
    Joel

43. Babylon cannot be Saudi Arabia because in Rev 18:16 it says she was clothed in fine linen. Fine linen is only used 3 times in the Bible, Rev 18:13, Rev 19:8 and Rev 19:14. In Rev 19:8 its says that fine linen is righteousnesses of the saints. Saudi Arabia was never clothed in fine linen. Mystery Babylon was. So how can Saudia Arabia be Mystery Babylon?

44. Beatrice,

    Your argument is a logical fallacy. Within the field of hermeneutics, it is understood that even if a particular word was used 100 times in one particular sense throughout the Scriptures, in no way does it follow that it must mean this every time. This is not the case in every day language and it is not the case in the Bible. This is especially so when it is only used a few times, as in this particular case. Here fine linen, along with scarlet clothes, gold, and precious stones etc., simply speaks of her luxury and the manner in which she glorifies herself.

    Blessings,
    Joel

45. Thank you for your Underground Episodes. I have enjoyed listening to them. I read a book Mystery Babylon When Jerusalem Embraces the Antichrist. The book basically goes verse by verse through Rev. 17 and 18, which describes over 90 characteristic for Mystery Bablyon. From previous posts, I realize you don’t agree with the conclusion of Jerusalem (which the book emphasizes it would have to be Jerusalem in the future because it does not meet all the characteristics now). However, even if someone doesn’t agree with the conclusion, it is so interesting to go through all these characteristics and very informative.
    Thanks for always being humble, and open to the possibility of different views on things, and most importantly always comparing everything that is said to Word of God.

46. Hi Joel,
    I just wanted to make a comment that the Revelation clearly refers to the Mystery Babylon as to a city, not a country. That would really limit our focus, taking out consideration of countries as potential Babilons.

47. Sorry Joel… I have to ask one more. This woman (check out the greek – specifically wife) is a whore in God’s eyes. How is Islam any different from Buddhism, Confucionism, etc., or any false religion. God cannot call them a whore, or harlot – they were never His to begin with.

    Ezekial 16 clearly paints the picture of Jerusalem violating God’s intent for them.

    Also – God tells us to come out of this religious system (founded in Judaism)… “Come out of her MY PEOPLE”. His people are not in – Islam, or any other false religious entity.

    I don’t understand how you make the claim that the whore is Islam. God never loved Islam (blessed Ishmael, yes) nor claimed Islam as His, in order for Islam to be a whore to Him.

48. Any commentary will inform you that the Greek word used is the general word for fornication and not adultery. In the Scriptures, Tyre and Nineveh, both pagan cities with no previous covenantal relationship with God, are both rebuked for being harlots. It is a city, and this is why God’s people are told to leave her. the city of Mecca represents the Great Harlot as she represents the greatest city of idolatry/false religion mankind has ever known. Nothing in human history compares to it.

49. Is is a city, I agree – the great city is given to us as that in which Christ was crucified (Rev 11:8)

    Why are God’s people found in Islam? It doesn’t make sense. God’s people are found in the religious system of today, which is founded in Judaism… God’s people are not in Islam, so they can’t come out of Islam.

50. also – why did you ignore my Rev 14 question?… I’m not trying to pick a fight with you. I am genuinely interested in your thoughts. We can do this via email if you’d rather – I’d love to pick your brain because I want the Truth… I’m not interested in being dogmatic about this.

    I’ve bought your books, and love them – I’m just having a hard time wrapping my head around this particular idea of yours.

51. Glen,

    I barely have time to answer questions, but I try. Many people attempt to use my site to argue or post their own private thoughts. With all due respect, because you made some outlandish comments, I deleted it. Saying Jerusalem is the worst false religion ever and such.

    Briefly, there is more than one “great city” in the prophecy. It has always been Jerusalem against Babylon, or Jerusalem again Rome or J’lem again Nineveh, etc. Whatever city is Satan’s pagan stronghold of the day.

52. God’s people are not “in Islam” unless we are referring to those who will become God’s people. But again, we are dealing with a city. A literal city-state. Simple.

53. Have you reviewed Ezekial 16 yet? Your argument is with Scripture – not me:

    “Yet have you not walked after their ways, nor done after their abominations: but, as if that were a very little thing, YOU WERE CORRUPTED MORE THAN THEY IN ALL YOUR WAYS. As I live, says the Lord God, Sodom your sister has not done, she nor her daughters, as YOU [Jerusalem] HAVE DONE, you and your daughters” (Eze_16:47-48).

    “Neither has Samaria committed half of your sins; but you have MULTIPLIED YOUR ABOMINATIONS MORE THAN THEY, and have justified your sisters in all YOUR ABOMINATIONS which you have done. You also, which have judged your sisters, bear your own shame for your sins that YOU HAVE COMMITTED MORE ABOMINABLE THAN THEY: they are MORE RIGHTEOUS [imagine God saying that Sodom is ‘more righteous’ than Jerusalem?] than you” (Eze_16:52).

54. Glen,

    This is the kind of rude comment that I do not normally post. My argument is with your argument about what the Scriptures are saying and what they mean. I am entirely familiar with Ezekiel 16. Simply because Israel is referred to as a harlot in Scripture does not mean she is the only harlot. As I have said, so also is Tyre and Nineveh called a harlot city by God. I am done arguing. Be blessed.

55. ok – I’ll wait for your book to come out then. Thanks for your time.

56. Please do. I believe you will find it to be far more thought provoking than a few scattered comments now might be. Blessings.

57. Can I ask one more question?

    Are the “harlot” and the “woman sitting on the beast” of Revelation 17 two different entities? Or, are they the same entity?

58. maybe it wasn’t so stupid of a question? The woman is a city (v. 18) – a city (likely in Turkey) that controls the beast. That’s what you were trying to say above, isn’t it?

59. No.

60. Can you give me a clue? I can’t even sleep now. All these years, and all the Scripture pointing to Jerusalem. It makes me sick to think I’ve been wrongly accusing Jerusalem all these years (forgive me Father).

    I’m pouring over all my e-Sword notes and just can’t find the connection to Islam. If this is a wealth thing, Saudi Arabia becomes an obvious candidate… part of me has this nagging feeling that I’ve missed something with Nimrod’s Babylon and the tower of Babel? Is that how you’re making a connection?

61. Glen,

    Revelation 17-18 cite, allude to, or echo many passages throughout the Old Testament. They extensively harken back to Isaiah 13-14 and Jeremiah 50-51 which speak of a destruction of literal Babylon. They also utilize language which harkens back to the destruction of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 and Nineveh in Habakuk. They also use language which draws from the Lord’s indictment of Jerusalem in Ezekiel 16. And on top of all this, they use language that would have called any first century Jew’s attention to the city of Rome. So we must realize that Revelation is purposefully drawing from and upon all of these passages and using imagery that would point to several different entities, yet is speaking of a mystery. Something yet to come in John’s day. It is primarily a religious and a financial entity that spreads the greatest false religion mankind has ever known. She is a mystery. She is called Babylon “The Great” and “The mother of all Harlots.” This is an eastern expression which simply means the greatest, biggest ever. If Islam is the 7th Kingdom of Rev. 17, which I believe it is, then one must simply look to the capital of that empire. Mecca-Saudi Arabia is the womb of the worlds most vile, idolatrous, false religion that mankind has ever known. This is my first choice in terms of the correct interpretation of this passage.

    My second choice would be a yet to come literal rebuilt city of Babylon.

    One of the glaring problems with Jerusalem is that Mystery Babylon is destroyed forever. Yet Jerusalem is where Jesus comes back to rule and reign. Big problem there for the Jerusalem view.

    Blessings

62. Thanks for taking the time to spell that out for me. You’ve obviously considered earthly Jerusalem versus New Jerusalem so I’ll move on to Mecca and start digging on it’s history… I’ve only just started reading Islamic Antichrist – there must be more clues in there? Thanks for your time and patience with me.

63. I’m still digging… sorry – I can’t wait for your book… no patience. If you offered presales, I’d sign up right now, but I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around this ideal of yours.

    I’m finding interesting language concerning Babylon, not only historically, but also in end time events in Isaiah 13-14, a woman being restrained in a basket used in commerce, heading for her temple in Babylon (Zech 5), Jer 51:63-64… am I on the right track, or should I be digging elsewhere?

64. These are the passages that are commonly used to support the view that Mystery Babylon is simply a yet to be rebuilt city on the site of the old Babylon, in Iraq.

65. ok… less literal, and more Spiritual hat.

66. ah! I think I just found a window I need to crawl in… Genesis 21:21.

    Yes????

    I hope you don’t find me a pest… I really do appreciate you as a teacher.

67. Zechariah 5:9-11

    9) Then I lifted up my eyes and looked, and there two women were coming out with the wind in their wings; and they had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heavens. 10) I said to the angel who was speaking with me, “Where are they taking the ephah?” 11) Then he said to me, “To build a temple for her in the land of Shinar; and when it is prepared, she will be set there on her own pedestal.”

    The Woman/Babylon, is the religious (syncretism= confluence primarily of Sunni decadent Islam, apostate Christianity, and wiccan based syncretism) and financial system (Islamic caliphate Western EU and Middle East EU- the Ottoman Empire revived) being carried to the Land of Shinar.

    The name given, in the earliest Hebrew records, to Babylonia, later called Babel, or the land of Babel (babhel, ‘erets babhel). In Genesis 10:10 it is the district wherein lay Babel, Erech, Accad, and Calneh, cities which were the “beginning” of Nimrod’s kingdom. In 11:2 Shinar is described as the land of the plain where migrants from the East settled, and founded Babel, the city, and its great tower.

    With the rise of the Saudi oil money and power, and the opulence of the Saudi’s, it is no doubt IMHO that they meet the criteria. Whether they are funding ISIS and world wide terrorism to intimidate the world to succumbing to Islam, or the infiltration of them into Western institution, the prophetic reality of this teaching is very well developing right before our eyes!

    Whether it’s location is Mecca (religious Islam), Dubai (financial), Qatar (political) or one of the other major port cities in the Mesopotamian region, the likelihood that it is the Land of Shinar and the origin of the cultural center. It could be the confluence of a megalopolis, not unlike the US with NYC (financial), Phila. (educational and historical) to Washington DC (political) corridor holding great significance regarding global seats of power.

    In other words, prophecy suggest that everything will come back to the land in which the rebellion of man started. I believe that the A/C will come from Syria (Assyrian region), and he will coalesce the entire Islamic world, and become the leader of a global caliphate. He will not be Radicalized, because the world will reject it. It has to be someone who will seduce with wealth, since the world economic systems will collapse, and cause extensive austerity world wide. I believe that the Saudi’s and he will succeed in tempting the world with Islam, and carrying opulence and hedonism throughout the world.

    I don’t believe that radical Islam will be the lead, but more of an antagonist to open the world up to a world wide police power. Through this, false peace will be developed. He, and FP (who may be of a papalcy will insideously be the catalyst a global religion that will be pallatable to the West, creating a world syncretism. Through it, they will revive Western decadence. IMHO, radical Islam will be the hammer that God will use to judge wickedness in the nations, but decadent Islam will be the seduction of the nations and lead to a world wide influence of Saudi opulence, which will lead to the AC kingdom being established and the lie (transcendence or “the singularity” will be pushed through the taking of the Mark.

    Whatever, interesting times the Lord has chosen us to be witnesses to this era. Let’s not divide but pray the Lord continue to give true believers wisdom to let others know He is returning soon.

68. Hi Joel, my husband and I were watching one of your videos on Babylon and it was very very good and had wonderful historical references that really helped make sense of many things in scripture regarding end times. Here is a question for you and this is where we were kind of stumped. When the voice from heaven in REV 18:4 says, “come out of her my people”, I don’t understand? How can a Muslim country like Saudi Arabia fit the description of Babylon where His people need to “come out of her”, when clearly, His people aren’t in there or involved there? There are similar references in the Old Testament to come out of Babylon, in which case “his people” were the Jews of those days. And I suppose when Revelation was written, “my people” would have been the Christians. So assuming that, we have Jews and Christians who are commanded to “come out of her”. But neither of those groups live in Saudi Arabia. Nor do true Christians have involvement with Saudi Arabia. Israel might, but the Christian; true Christians do not have involvement there. Anyway, it was actually my husband who asked that question and I thought it was a good question too and really would value your thoughts on that. (BTW we don’t believe U.S. is Babylon either).

69. Actually there are numerous workers in the nation who are Christians. Indians, Pakistanis, Filipinos etc.

70. OIC. Thank you. I understand, although it still doesn’t sound like that many Christians are there compared to the many who are in other places in the world? The impression the bible gives to most of us is that it is many people of God who are partakers; not a few? Perhaps another question for you or a broader application and thought to ponder: I realize Obama has announced we no longer are a Christian nation, but a melting pot of religions instead. Be that as it may, we still have a higher degree than most countries, of Christians living in our country and overall Christian values in our political and societal systems. We are still seen by most of the world as primarily a Christian nation. And Israel still claims to represent and believe in the God of Abraham, Jacob and Moses. With that, I would think the bible means those 2 groups, Christian/Jew, especially in the Old Testament prophecies of “my people come out of her”. With those values combined; I figured you were going to answer me that Revelation was speaking to the many Christian or Jewish nations who are identified with God/Jesus. That they need to stop their relationship with Saudi Arabia and leave her and stop trying to get their needs and wants satisfied through her; ie; oil and U.S. bond holdings for the U.S. and for Israel; additional behind the scenes support for Israel against Iran. Or something like that. (I realize Israel doesn’t have any official diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia, but due to their common interests in opposing Iran; there are reports that Israel and Saudi, still carry on intelligence operations together). Although my thinking on this is kind of flawed too; in that the U.S. long ago actually approached Saudi Arabia first; ie; “give us your oil in exchange for us helping you build it out and making you wealthy and you help us by taking on a good portion of our debts/Treasury Bonds.” It wasn’t the Saudi’s who approached the U.S. and seduced her into a deal; it was the other way around.
    Oh well, I guess the Lord will make it all very clear in the days ahead. I believe the book of Revelation is an end times book and much of what it says we have to get closer to in time before all the meaning can be completely understood. Thank you though, for sharing your insights in a well done video format, as it truly helped clear up confusion about Turkey and the four horns in Daniel and all that. We appreciate it! God bless you and please write back if you have further insight as to how I’m unpacking all this 🙂

71. Ask yourself these questions, what nation has the most languages in the world ? What nation has the most nationalities in the world ? What nation has the most imports in the world ? What nation has the most military powers in the heavens ? What nation has the most military powers on the earth ? What nation is reigning over the kings of the earth ? What nation has the most economy in the world ? What nation has the most school systems in the world ? What nation has the most prisons in the world ? What nation has the most religions in the world ? Where do you think is mystery Babylon the great, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth ? Why is Babylon called “mystery Babylon’ ? Why is Babylon the great not found in the middle east ?

72. Freddy,

    Several of the criteria that you have laid out simply have nothing to do with the scriptural descriptions of Harlot Babylon. The simple fact is that the United States does not meet the most basic requirements of the text. The US is not the capital of Christian bloodshed. Quite the opposite, it is the capital of global missionary sending and support. The US is not the capital of global false religion. The US does not sit in a desert. The US is not guilty for all of the slain witnesses of Jesus throughout the nations. The US simply does not fit. We must submit to the text.

73. Joel, even if God was to show you who is mystery Babylon, would you believe God ? Where do you think are the descendants of Babylon the great ? Where do you think the U.S. came from ? Where do you think great Britain came from ? Where do you think Greece, Rome, Persia, Syria and Assyria came from ? The city or nation of ancient Babylon is in ruins, so where do you think is Babylon the great ? Do you think Babylon the great changed her identity, when she moved from the middle east ? When God says “my people come out of her”, is not the U.S. with Christians of multiple nationalities from around the world ? When the king of Babylon the great played the national anthem, at the sound of music, the Babylonians would fall down and worship the gold image…Today, when the U.S. plays the national anthem, at the sound of music, the U.S. citizens stand up and sing a song to the spangled star of heaven…Or they will pledge allegiance to the spangled star of heaven and the eagle of the earth…The founding fathers of the nations made carved images of the stars, the moon, the sun, of birds and four footed beasts, and set the carved images in the flag to serve them…God said, “you shall not make or serve any carved image”(Ex.20)(De.4)…The nations idols are high and lifted up on a flag pole, and those who are serving the idols are called idol worshipers…God calls this type of flag service idolatry…The U.S. is serving the spangle star of heaven and the eagle of the earth…Mexico is serving the eagle and serpent of the earth…Canada is serving the maple leaf of the tree of the earth…Japan is serving the sun god of heaven…And Israel is serving the star remphan of heaven Acts 7…Like I said, “even if God said it Nobody believes it”.

74. Sigh… So much for reason…

75. I think this is basically saying the Daughter of Babylon is the Catholic Church which may be true. Dubai and America could also be Babylon.

76. Vatican City and the Catholic Church = The Daughter of BABYLON???

77. Nope.

78. America also does not fit the descriptions.

79. Hi Joel. First of all, let me thank you for your work. I’ve read the Islamic Antichrist, Mideast Beast and When a Jew Rules the World. All of them are well-written and well-supported by Scripture. I also want to commend you on your attitude toward the truth. You’ve always been very diligent in adhering to the Scriptures while maintaining a respectful humility. I find this very refreshing, especially in light of the fact that there are so many people who approach the Bible with preconceived ideas. In my own experience, I’ve found that no amount of logic or reason will sway an individual who has obvious gaps in his/her knowledge of the Scriptures. Time and effort must be first focused on gaining familarity with the Bible itself before one can deduce or reason from that knowledge base. This holistic knowledge is clearly lacking in some of those people who have commented above. Whether Babylon is Mecca or a future rebuilt city in Shinar/Iraq, I’m not 100% sure, but it beyond doubt definitely not the United States or Jerusalem as even a cursory reading of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel or Revelation will show. I commend your patience in trying to teach some of these people, who unfortunately, have not put in the requisite study time to be able to understand your arguments. Anyway, keep up the good work! Your ministry is vital to the times in which we live.

80. Thanks Jeremy. Deeply appreciated.

81. Joel and Chris,
    I enjoyed the dialogue you two have had on this blog. I respect both of you gentlemen and have been blessed by both through your books, videos, and articles. Thank you.

    As for this discussion, I too once thought NYC was the city but could not see how it’s religion affected the world, unless I thought hedonism, materialism, pornography, and immorality were a religion. The female Statue of Liberty, with its history and symbolism, certainly didn’t hurt the argument. And, before that, I thought it was ROME and the RCC. Being an X-RCC, you would know why I thought that. Do I think Chris is right with Jerusalem being the city? Nope. That city won’t be burned to the ground, although it does kill it’s prophets. Is MECCA the city and Islam the false religion? Could be, but honestly, I’m not there yet. Still trying to figure out how and why the Beast could destroy Mecca and Islam (false religion), especially considering the Beast may be comprised of 10 Muslim nations. This is why I ordered Mideast Beast to see if the answers to my questions are there.

    Shalom,
    TM

82. Joel,
    You have such an intelligent hungry following of seekers who read and watch you. I’m impressed. STEPHANIE in particular made some great comments that should be factored in as well. I am so proud to be a brother in the Lord of other seekers because quite frankly, what is more important than watching and following his word? It may be a puzzle, but I love the challenge. Thank you Lord for saving us all through the blood of Yeshua.
    TM

83. So Mecca has a strong and powerful military?

84. Nothing in the prophecy says the Babylon would have a strong military.

85. Well, I posted my comment twice: you posted it neither time. If you can’t allow examination of what you’re teaching, that really shows me all I need to know about you.

86. LM,

    For obvious reasons, I do not allow my site to be used to spread bad doctrine or strange pet end time theories. You must understand that within the world of the end times, everyone has an opinion, and far too many are convinced their opinion is Gospel truth, including those whose arguments are very poorly reasoned or Scripturally unsupportable. Being a father of five young children, producing a weekly TV show, traveling globally, and writing books, I do not have the time to argue or debate with everyone such as yourself who believes I am somehow obligated to do so. I would literally have to quit my job and dedicate my life to answering objections on this blog to do so. That you are obviously so upset that I did not post and interact with your very extensive comments says much about your character. Your claims that my choice not to post comments such as yours is “unchristian” behavior and is due to my “inability to answer” is simply childish, manipulative drivel.

    Regards,
    Joel

87. Great job Joel… I have gone back and forth and am really wrestling with this issue. I have thought mystery Babylon was Rome, Jerusalem, Saudi Arabia and the USA but I am concerned that the USA really is mystery Babylon. Diimitru dudaman said that the USA was a golden cup in the Lords hand (jer 51:7) That meant the USA was faithful and used of God but forsook God totally. That is what is happening today. Today only 1 of ten can describe the basic tenets of the faith. And purported financial dollars spread around the world are not as important as spreading the real faith is. With all the peedos in government and Hollywood this country is headed for FEMA camp disasters where Christians WILL BE killed for the faith not to mention the already slaughtered aborted babies. Islam may have a part in end times but it is not the greatest false religion- SATANISM IS and the numbers of satanists is exploding in this country. A whore is someone who was faithful then completely forsakes their spouse. We were the greatest county but now are a dwelling place for every foul spirit. This country chose to do it my way like the Sinatra song says instead of Thy Way- nothing more satanic than that. Lucifer had it all then fell. America falling is closer to the narrative than looking at Ismael and falslam. We from the US are soiling the entire world with our sorcery and deserve judgement. Why isn’t America mentioned in the Bible? Is it because we are headed for total destruction? I am thinking so. I am going to work on the desert aspect as well as your other points but to me there’s too much withstanding for the coffin to be shut. I have been a patriot so I really appreciate your passion to resolve this and your hopeful outlook. I sure would like to hope it’s not America.. thanks again for your service in searching Scriptures for Truth…God bless!

88. I echo Peter’s sediment that I hope it isn’t USA, but from the extensive descriptions in Rev. 17 and 18 USA is the near future best fit, Maybe 200 years from now it will be totally different story.

    From your points in the video here’s my 2 cents:
    1) You argue that Mystery Babylon is a religion. It likely does have a religious aspect but the end of Rev 17 clearly says it is a city that has geo/political power over the whole world. So a kingdom in their day, country in our day.

    2) You mention it is in the desert. I take that the part about “John transported into the wilderness” as more metaphorical, just like most the descriptions in those verses in Rev 17. Also in Rev. 18 as others above have mentioned Babylon is (or has) major port cities which doesn’t rule out being in the desert, however the climate doesn’t seem to factor in anywhere else.

    3) The point about killing the saints. While this is very true that USA doesn’t fit this description today, or even close, our direction indicates in a couple decades it is totally possible we turn that corner. Ugh.

    The extensive descriptions in Rev 17-18 (like world famous business men, economic and military super power, massive importer, hated by the antichrist, have power over other countries like world police, exports our sin and filth to the whole world thru movies, internet, and music) better fit, unfortunately, the USA.

    Again things might be radically different in the distant future so in NO WAY should we stop praying for our country or stop working to make our country a place where Christianity can flourish and be exported around the world. Let’s all pray the direction of this country changes because right now we are on course to become the dark empire.

89. Duane,

    Not to be that guy, but I assume you mean “sentiment” and not “sediment.” : )

    1) Babylon does not merely have a “religious aspect,” rather it is one of the two most important and primary descriptions in the prophecy. Her first description is she is the great “harlot.” Harlotry is metaphorical idolatry, or false religion. The term “Great” means she is the biggest. She represents the greatest false religion. America simply does not fit this whatsoever. Mecca/Saudi Arabia fits it to a tee. We cannot manipulate or ignore the single most important aspect of the prophecy simply to make it fit that interpretation which we wish it to be. We must submit to the text.

    2) Every metaphorical aspect of the prophecy is specifically interpreted by the angel. Nowhere does the angel say the desert is metaphorical. The city is in a desert. We have no basis other than wishful thinking to disregard or so casually write off this aspect of the prophecy.

    3) I am glad you agree that the USA doesn’t fit the part about the killing of the saints. Your point that this could change in the future is valid, though anything is possible in the future. At this present time, the USA simply doesn’t fit this critical aspect of the prophecy.

    I highly encourage you to read the book. As powerful as America may be, the Saudi royal family control most American Presidents, politicians, corporations, and even media outlets. Don’t write it off until you have heard the matter.

    Blessings,
    Joel

90. Yes, meant sentiment, thanks for the correction (Math/Science is my thing, grammar and spelin not so much 🙂

    I’m not dogmatic about who is Babylon since it depends on which century things come to a close. From my studies there’s still some big stuff to happen before the trib (ezekiel war, Israeli changes, building a temple, etc). May happen fast, may not. I hope for Jesus’ sake (His past punishment for the sins of the world) the era of sin we live in will close sooner than later.

    You have some very good points about Saudi Arabia, and there’s a chance they will be Babylon. I’ll admin that a mid-east Babylon makes more sense, but then again, America would have certainly been “the wilderness” in that day, and distance is not much of an issue today. Overall I still feel America is a better fit for the extensive details in Rev 17 and 18.

    This guy probably has the most detailed and best Biblically supported definition of what Mystery Babylon is and is not from all the articles I’ve read. (and I’ve read a ton).
    http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/PERSONAL/k/921/The-Beast-Babylon-Part-Four-Where-Is-Woman-of-Revelation-17.htm

    The last half makes the point that throughout scripture “woman” is a symbol of a city or nation, but never a false religion. Also talks about the woman and beast being separate and competing entities.

91. Throughout Scripture harlotry is consistently used to denote idolatry. The notion that it is not false religion is simply Scripture twisting.

92. My apologies for the confusion, not saying idolatry isn’t a part of Babylon, just clarifying that Babylon is a city/country primarily per Rev 17. Idolatry and false religion(s) are definitely occurring in this geographic area called Mystery Babylon.

    On a different topic a buddy sent me this link, y’all may have already seen this. I’ve read Zechariah 5 several times and also commentaries but they never seem to explain the highly unusual imagery. This guy might have hit the nail on the head for one of the most enigmatic prophecies in the Bible. He makes a solid case for a vastly different interpretation. Description starts around the 5 minute mark.
    https://youtu.be/lRCh54zN7hc

93. Wait so why is Babylon not a Country? If you were to argue religion then please explain to me what religion rules over China? China is a declared as a “atheists” state. And if you look at the overall “kings of the world” they are not all ruled or “drunk” off of ONE false religion. Moreover most counties hold vast different religious views.

94. Scripture explains that Babylon is specifically a city eight times. It could indeed be city state, but there is a city which is its capitol. Both Babylon and Rome are the archetypes. Second, the part of the world that the Bible emphasizes is the region that surrounds Israel. This is the context of the Scriptures.

95. I am trying to seek truth so please do not take offensive by me asking questions. I am a US citizen and have been saved by my Lord Jesus. I am seeking truth. “Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another.” Prov 27:17. Im trying to understand your response. You say “the part of the world that the Bible emphasizes is the region that surrounds Israel. This is the context of the Scriptures”. My question is how do you know that they bible is emphasizes the specific region around Israel? I think God might have a much bigger out look then just Israel when speaking of the End Times. But my ears are open to your thoughts on this issue. Also if you don’t mind me asking what religion do you think she is? I know a common belief is the Catholic Church but I am curious as to what you believe?

96. Ben,

    The Scriptures repeatedly state in multiple passages through the prophets and the New Testament that in the last days, the Lord will gather all of the surrounding nations against Jerusalem. Jesus comes back to Jerusalem. There are too many passages to cite here. This is the simple geographic context of the Bible. It is where all of the stories take place and where it all all concludes. The nations that surround Israel are Muslim majority. It’s rather simple. I encourage you to grab my book Mideast Beast. Forgive my brevity, I’m essentially running through an airport.

    Blessings,
    Joel

97. Quick question Rev 8:7 “The first angel blew his trumpet, and there followed hail and fire, mixed with blood, and these were thrown upon the earth. And a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up.” If Mecca is indeed “Babylon” then how does that account of 1/3 of the world population? Also Rev 18:4″Then I heard another voice from heaven saying,“Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues;” my thought is I don’t think many of God’s people would be in Mecca due to its extreme hate of Christians.

98. Your first question doesn’t really make sense. You did not establish a clear connection between a third of the earth being killed and Babylon. Nevertheless, One third of the world’s population are Muslim. Many believe that this is only one third of the people in the land, or the more general Middle East.

    Second question: I don’t argue for Mecca exclusively as Babylon. Rather, I suggest that Babylon represents both Mecca and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, but Islam as a system in a broader sense. For example, it says that “in her was found the blood of… all who were slain on the earth.” This speaks of a larger system than merely any single city. That said, one third of the citizens in the Kingdom (nearly 10 million) are foreign workers, many of which are Christians. And for what it is worth, there are indeed a growing number of secret Christians who live in Mecca.

99. Hey there Joel, this teaching is wonderful. I have studied bible prophecy ever since I was 15. I am now 61. We know Mystery Babylon started at the Tower of Babel, later it moved its headquarters to Rome to hide behind the imitation of a religious cascade of page try and fakery! The U.N. is an international joke! We know that the term “Mystery Babylon “ is a code name for Rome. Notice the whore’s clothes, fine purple, scarlet, and gold. America’s colors are red, White, and blue. Many people teach that Israel will not come back to God and that America is going to take their place during the Tribulation, rubbish! God says that He will not ever forget Israel! The NEW WORLD ORDER is what will be destroyed, (The Vatican).

100. Not sure the Vatican is the primary entity responsible for the shed blood of the saints throughout the world right now, nor in the days ahead.