A few weeks ago, I had the pleasure of having coffee with Don Zoller, the co-author, along with Joseph Lenard, of The Last Shofar!, a book which seeks to address the doctrine of the pre-wrath rapture of the Church as it coincides with the Fall Feast of the Lord. I know that many of my readers hold to the pre-wrath position and would be very blessed to work through this book. You can purchase a copy at Amazon.com Their web-site is theLastShofar.net
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As one who holds the pre-wrath Rapture position, and one who looks forward to the fulfillment of all the mo’edim, I ordered the book immediately. Thanks Joel.
Joel:
I look forward to reading this book to see what the authors have to say about the Fall Feasts and the second coming of Christ.
I recently came across a video presentation, “God’s Feast Days and the Second Coming of Messiah” (Part 2) from theseasonofreturn.com. Does T. W. Tramm’s basic premise (apart from his 2012-2015 timeframe, which I do not agree with) that Christ’s second coming will have its fulfillment on the Day of Atonement in some future year track with what Zoller and Lenard present?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_sHxtUklR4
Here’s an excerpt from the text of the video:
“THE DAY OF ATONEMENT
“As ordained by God, the Day of Atonement was to be observed ten days after the Feast of Trumpets, on Tishrei 10. The central themes of this feast are “atonement” and “repentance. In ancient times, it was on this singular day that the high priest was allowed behind the veil of the Temple into the “Holy of Holies,” where he would plead forgiveness for Israel in the presence of God’s Glory. Thus, the Day of Atonement is known as “the day of face to face” with God. The Day of Atonement is also known as “the day the Gates of Heaven are closed.” Accordingly, the last ceremony to take place on this feast is called “neilah,” or “the closing of the gates.” It is said that at this time it is too late to accept the Messiah into your life, as all opportunity has passed.
“DAY OF ATONEMENT FUTURE FULFILLMENT:
“As intimated by the theme “face to face” with God, the Day of Atonement foreshadows the future physical return of Jesus Christ to reign as King. On this day in some future year, Christ will literally set foot upon the Mount of Olives as prophesied in Zechariah and begin to rule over all the nations. At this time Israel will be brought into full repentance, as they come “face to face” with “Him whom they have pierced.” (Zech. 12:10) At last, Israel will come to know Jesus, or “Yeshua,” as her Messiah.”
(Part 1, on the Spring Feasts, is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTTQ9DsTns8)
We’re already in 2014, and I don’t think the second coming is going to occur by 2015, as Tramm appears to believe. However, since the Spring Feasts were all fulfilled in Christ, it makes sense that the Fall Feasts would also have some future prophetic fulfillment in His second advent.
Just to be clear, pre-wrath means the
Lords second coming wrath?
You may be interested to know that I’m writing a series of blog posts arguing for the pre-wrath position and against the pre-trib position at http://jessicahof.wordpress.com/ . The post titles are in the form: “2 Thessalonians 2 (Part x). It’s not finished yet; I’ve written 4 parts so far. Many thanks to A. Kurschner, and to you Joel for recommending him.
An Overview
God has a calendar that clearly defines His plan of redemption. That calendar is prophetically revealed in the Feasts of the Lord—the Spring Feasts and the Fall Feasts (Leviticus 23).
Why is this important and what does it mean for believers? Yeshua precisely fulfilled every facet of the Spring Feasts at His First Coming—He will likewise fulfill every facet of the Fall Feasts at His Second Coming, on the very days of the Feasts! The Feasts are rehearsals for God’s plan of redemption through Israel and will determine when key events will happen during the 70th Week of Daniel. This is significant and has remarkable ramifications for the Church.
Most writers on prophecy share a pre-determined perspective of what the future should look like. The authors take a different, and they believe, a broader and more biblical look at the future, based on ancient Hebrew writings of the Old Testament, other rabbinical-source documents, as well as a fresh look at New Testament writings.
The Last Shofar! integrates the Fall Feasts with the chronology of end-time prophesized events, including the Day of the Lord, with the appearing of the Son of Man in the clouds to rapture His Church, accompanied by cosmic signs and the blast of the shofar, at the Feast of Trumpets. Indeed, ancient Hebrew writings reveal when the Messiah will come again—at the Feast of Trumpets and, literally, as Yeshua stated, “As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man,” defining also the timeframe between the Rapture and His physical return on Yom Kippur.
Scripture is teaching believers within the Church to prepare and get ready for the coming days. Although escaping God’s wrath, we will undergo a part of the Great Tribulation, including great persecution. We need to be prepared, and The Last Shofar! is a unique practical guide to get ready for the end times.
The book (320 pages) is based on a case-study approach. The evidence is presented in a compelling way, and the reader is asked to be the “judge and jury” to evaluate the evidence. The case and related subjects are presented in nine chapters, an epilogue and three appendices, all thoroughly researched and cited; chapter-based study questions help the reader and small groups engage critical themes.
The Last Shofar! is available through Xulon Press (the publisher), Amazon, Barnes & Noble and Apple’s iBooks, in three formats: eBook, softcover and hardcover.
Thanks for the heads up Joel! Looks like a great book. Pre-Wrath rocks! 🙂
In our ‘last will and testament’, which my wife and I wrote up some years ago when our children were still minors, I put that on my epitaph (should I have one) I want, “Waiting for the last trump!”
I also believe that the fall feasts are going to be literally fulfilled, and in a short time-span once those fulfillments begin. However, I am wary to say that the event which Yeshua says no one knows the day and hour will fall on a specific mo’ed, such as Memorial of [Trumpet/Shofar] Blasts. That is because the Lord is not going to let Satan know either.
If we believe that we can know the season (which I do), but not the specific day and hour, then it will not be on a day that we would recognize as a specific ‘holiday’. Assume for a moment that it is on the Feast of Trumpets, and it did not happen in x-year. Then we, and the devil, would think we know that it can not happen for the rest of that year, and then we prepare for the next year’s appointed time. Ah, not this time either! And so on. This does not seem the wisdom of God and the Holy Spirit’s leading in this matter.
Consider, too, that the Day of Atonements is also the time for the Jubilee trumpet to blow, which may be the last trump. The Day of Atonements is the day of reckoning for Israel: either atoned for and reconciled by the sacrifice which YHVH gave, or else cut off from the people and the Lord for not accepting the sacrifice which He provided that day. (Lev 23:26-32) This ties in very well for Israel’s national day of salvation as described in Zech 12, when those who survive through the Great Tribulation see Jesus whom they have pierced, and afflict their souls like never before.
We are saved from God’s wrath. He does not promise us that we are saved from suffering man’s wrath or the devil’s. What He does assure us of is that we will be overcomers by our faith in Yeshua’s/Jesus’ name and His blood shed for us, whether we die, are killed, or are alive at His coming.
The Holy Spirit is leading us into all truth, but I don’t think we have it all yet. What we do have is still only in part, and that part still as only through a cloudy glass. Let’s keep learning and teaching what we think we know according to God’s Word, helping each other to stand, and to help others to stand.
Hey Joel!
Glad to see more are coming around to pre-wrath!
Has this been pointed out? If you accept the end of “the last week (i.e., 7 years of 360 days each)” as falling on one of the fall feasts, then you also know when Israel signs her “covenant of death”.
The solar year contains ~365.25 days. So, 7 * 5.25 gives you the number of days after the return fall feast when the covenant will be signed (but 7 years prior).
Again if you accept a fall feast return of Jesus, then October-November would be when we would be expecting big (but lamentable) news out of Israel.
Have you considered going to seminary? If finances were an issue, I think perhaps you might find folks willing to chip in.
Also with an “ISIS caliph” around, what’s the latest thought on the return of “Muslim Jesus”? Your theory of “Muslim Jesus” being the False Prophet really impressed me.
God bless!
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
◄ 1 Thessalonians 5 ►
King James Bible
The Day of the Lord
(Zephaniah 1:7-18; 2 Peter 3:10-13)
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
Oh No Joel! Don’t go to cemetary, I mean seminary. You come out you might just be a unbeliever like over 50% of those who go in. You the man, without thinkin on that plan! 🙂
I ordered the book yesterday and finished the Kindle version tonight. I found it a very well researched and literate work. As someone who has written on the subject of the Rapture occurring on Rosh Hashanah myself, I was pleased to deepen my own knowledge of the subject.
Of greatest interest to me was the differences between the “first shofar,” “the last shofar” and the “great shofar.” This was something I wasn’t personally aware of and was a source of confusion for me. The explanation in the book helped my understanding a great deal.
Although like any end times book, I might not agree with everything, I recommend it highly. For those not familiar with the Feasts of the Lord and their relation to prophecy, it will be eye opening.
Sounds like an interesting book. I hold the same position (Fall Feast fulfillment of 2nd Coming) because it synthesizes all the scriptures best, IMO. I would not say for sure Christ is coming in the next couple of years (some believe its 2016) but I wouldn’t rule it out either.
I know we are cautioned NOT to date set the LORD’s return, Kurt J. and I bet all of us are wrong, but…since you started it…since most theologians are lead to believe Jesus’s death was in 30 A.D. then I am thinking it would be closer to 2030. But then I never win the lottery either, so what do I know! Don’t answer that! LOL
I too hold the pre-wrath view, and believe it is the only view that harmonizes ALL scripture. I just wanted to make one comment though in reference to people continually mentioning or asking if Jesus might come in the next couple of years. Clearly the answer is no. The 7 year covenant has not even occurred yet. According to the pre-wrath view, the rapture won’t happen until “after the tribulation of those days” (Matt 24:29). So even if the 7 years were to begin tomorrow, we’d still have at least 5 or 6 more years people. The church will endure the Great Tribulation…i.e. the 1st 5 Seals of Revelation. But the Lord will “cut short” the Great Tribulation for the sake of the elect (at the 6th Seal), and then the Day of the Lord shall commence. So, in conclusion, I believe we do have to rule out 2016 as a possible year for the Lord to return. Until we see a 7 year covenant “confirmed with many nations” followed 3.5 years later by the “abomination of desolation,” then we all just need to continue to sit tight and wait.
WB,
I fully concur. We have a ways to go.
Amen WB! Hey, was wanting to know how the Jewish sages came up with the year now-like 57??. Do they use the same method as that Usshur?, guy did? (The book of Gen) How much weight do you all put in God having a 6000 year plan, then 1000 Mil, then eternity? If the 6000 year plan is true, Islam would have another 200+ years to grow and spread out throughout all nations. Or, “as in the days of Noah”. Could Gen 6:3-the 120 years, be from the rebirth of Israel as a nation, like 2068? Just throwing this out there. There is a lot of talk about Jesus coming around now, but things just are not lining up in my book, as WB points out. It seems like it will be at a time when we all get done scratching our heads IMO.
WB, Instead I think you weren’t telling the believers to just sit and wait, rather to trust. As faithful servants we need to be busy about the Master’s business until he comes. Like like Jesus said in Mt24:14 “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. ” We aren’t done yet, but it is getting closer to fulfilling His commission.
Doug – Yes I agree. I didn’t mean that we all should literally just be sitting and waiting 🙂 Let’s all be about the Lord’s business!
Steve – I fully believe in the idea you’re mentioning, that God has in fact ordained human history to last 1 week, with each day lasting approximately 1000 years. 6000 years of suffering & labor, followed by the 1000 year Sabbath Day of History. I completely believe that this is the Lord’s plan. I also believe it would be silly to try and date set, so I think it’s meant to be more of an approximate timetable. It’s a general Biblical concept, albeit a very important and very true concept. I choose not to obsess about exact years and dates. In my view, I think the orthodox Jewish timeline is wrong, and I prefer Ussher’s. There are others like Ussher who’ve made historical timelines and most of them are very close to his. I think the Jewish one is missing a century or two 🙂 There’s no way we’ve still got 200 years. With the way technology is advancing exponentially, we’ll all have blown the Earth to bits long before then…
WBPound,
I agree with you that Christ returns after the tribulation concurrent with the cosmic signs – it seems to me the ekklesia is away only during the wrath being poured out, probably between Yom Teruah and Yom Kippur, hidden in preparation for the wedding during that week or so. It’s worthwhile to study the word “thlipsis”, Greek for “tribulation” to see how the apostles used the word.
In other news, did anyone participate in the Anne Graham Lotz “777” Urgent Prayer today? I watched and prayed along with the IHOPKC Prayer Room while at work. Anointed time.
WB, I concur too. I just started reading the book:). However it’s all in His Word! Who knows when the 7 yr Peace Agreement will take place… But I think in the next few years at least! Joel… Do you think that Baghdadi is the Antichrist or Mahdi? Reason why I ask is that he’s commanding Muslims everywhere to pledge allegiance to him. Can the Caliph be the Mahdi? Somehow I don’t see Baghdadi making a peace agreement or being involved in one… But the Antichrist will deceive… I guess we wait and see!
Thanks WB! Don’t see how we can last 200 more either. Come soon Lord Jesus! He’s the only one who can fix the mess we have made of this world.
I agree with WBPound and Joel on this. We haven’t yet seen the institution of the 7 year “peace” treaty; we haven’t seen the abomination of desolation.
I would like to have some clarification, however, on the last 3.5 years, i.e., the period of the great tribulation. When the Lord tells us that he will “cut short” the Great Tribulation for the sake of the elect”, does that mean that He cuts it short AFTER the second 3.5 years? Or does he cut it short before that full 3.5 years is complete? My understanding is that believers who are living on the earth during that time will experience the full 3.5 years of the anti-Christ’s wrath, and then, on a day and hour that we do not know (but we can be looking for) AFTER the 3.5 years is complete, we can expect the Lord to return and gather the saints to Him before He pours out His wrath on the nations. Am I understanding this correctly?
Also, based on what Scripture tells us, should we be able to recognize the AC, (should it be obvious to us?) before the abomination of desolation, i.e., at the time he makes the 7-year agreement? Will there be any ambiguity about this if we are paying attention to Scripture?
With all the talk of the ram and wild goat I thought this recent archaeological discovery of a bronze wild goat was interesting.
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2014/07/08/remains-long-lost-temple-discovered-in-iraq/
Kurt, The Gospel in the End Times Ministries all participated. Fasting and Prayer. God is doing something new! We need to seek him.
WB, In terms of end times preparation, Jesus concludes the olivet discourse with 5 teachings, all about preparation. You can find interpretations on http://www.thegospelintheendtimes.com Here is a brief synoposis:
Ilusstration of the Head of the house and the thief: warning for church leaders to prepare.
Parable of the Faithful and Evil Slaves: Physical preparation
Parable of the Ten Virgins: Personal spiritual preparation
Parable of the Ten Talents: Corporate spiritual preaparation
Prophecy of the Goats and the Sheep: Caring for God’s household during the Tribulation
Hope that helps. There is much to do.
My theory is that with intelligent, self-aware, and fully weaponized robots just around the corner… He has to return soon. Otherwise, its just going to get weird. : )
Me thinks Joel has seen the latest installment of the “Transformers” movie…it has got to his brain…:P
Jeanne,
The Pre-Wrath view point sees Jesus cutting short the great tribulation sometime during the last 3.5 years. This is at the sixth seal in the book of Rev. This is why we are told to watch and that we won’t know exactly when it will be. The threefold witness in the sun, moon, and stars, will signal the graet trib has been cut short to the whole world. Jesus & God will then arrive shortly from a darkened universe, God tearing the fabric between the realms, the Glory of the Son shining brighter than the sun! I believe people will be able to get a look at God on His throne, that is why unbelievers are running for the holes and caves in the rocks! He will then begin putting His wrath upon the unbelieving world (trumpets and bowls),thus rendering the AC useless and powerless until he is finally destroyed when Jesus takes posession of the earth in Rev 20. I believe His wrath will last close to 1 year if Isa 34:8 is taken at face value. 🙂
Nope. Have not seen transformers.
http://libertyalliance.com/2014/07/breaking-isis-leader-baghdadi-reported-gravely-injuredkilled-attack/
off topic but newsworthy nonetheless
Joel, Here is a 30 min. video explaining the United States involvement in the middle east. Please watch all of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1Drj7-YeoY
Great book recommendation, Joel. I finished the Kindle version Monday evening.
I’m convinced of the pre-wrath rapture and had read here and there about the importance of the feasts and God’s plan for redemption and judgment, but The Last Shofar! brought it all together in a nice, neat fashion. It’s highly readable for someone familiar with the Bible yet provides enough theological meat—and references—for those who want to study further.
Like Nelson, I was not aware of the differences between the “first shofar,” “the last shofar” and the “great shofar.” I also wasn’t aware that Rosh Hashanah is also known as the hidden day.
Zoller and his co-authors took great pains to research and document their reasoning. I consider it a must-read for serious students of the end times, even those who are well-versed in both the idea of the pre-wrath rapture and the significance of the Jewish feasts. It’s a good companion book to the also excellent “Antichrist Before the Day of the Lord,” by Alan Kurschner.
Charlotte says,
THE LAST SHOFAR! by Joseph Lenard & Donald Zoller is outstanding. It’s organized in a meaningful way and easy to follow. The authors’ writing is well done. Their careful study of The Word of God and indepth research brings fresh perspective. As one reads this book, the Lord’s promises and living hope will touch the reader in a lasting way.
So, there is more than definition of wrath.
I’m used to this definition of the “wrath of God”: This is where God says, “You want to be in charge? Fine, you are in charge.” and people are accountable for the aftermath of not letting God be in charge.
It is true that we must prepare, so that beliefs are not just confined to activity in the brain, but put to use (not unlike the example of where the rubber meets the road).
Blessings.
David,
I believe the definition you are use to is a form of discipline for a believer. The true wrath of God is against unbelievers, when His simmering and burning anger is no longer contained. We, as believers, are no longer under His wrath- He put His wrath upon Jesus on the cross. Jhn 3:36, Rom 5:9, Eph 2, 1Thes 1:10, Heb 12:6-11. Hebrews 4 talks about the “rest” of God. This is the same thought as God choosing us in Eph 1. Notice no one is repenting and turning to God past the 6th seal in Rev. Rev 9:20-21, 16:11
My concerns with the pre-wrath viewpoint is more about location and timing than anything else, same as the Mid-Trib and Pre-trib viewpoint. I don’t find any scriptures that indicate to me that living believers in the Messiah will be transported to the heavens.
I note the use of the Greek word is used to show a person being transported from one place on Earth to another place on earth (not heaven) in Acts 8: “And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. 39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus. And passing through, he preached in all the cities till he came to Caesarea.”
It is also used to describe taking away to heaven in 2 Corinthians 12 “I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. ” … but that does not appear to be the case in the scriptures concerning where the believers in Messiah are taken:
“For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.”
Okay, the dead in Christ rise first. When does this happen?
“Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[a] thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION.”
I have to admit being baffled by any other view than post-tribulation rapture viewpoint. I think it is plain to see that the first thing to happen is 1). Satan is bound 1,000 years, then 2). the dead rise, and LAST, 3). there is a catching away/rapture to be with Messiah. Since Messiah reigns from Jerusalem, it also appears plain that believers in Messiah are taken not to heaven, but Jerusalem.
I would be relieved to be corrected on this point, as the wrath is a horrifying event that I have no desire to be anywhere near. If anyone sees a way around the interpretation posted above, please speak and provide correction/reproof.
Thank you and God bless you, Joel, for recommending books that you didn’t write. Many Christian authors incessantly push their own products and ignore works by others.
You promote writers and preachers who teach the Good News, even if it doesn’t benefit you financially.
Paul said in several places that those who spread the gospel are worthy of compensation:
“the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel” (1 Corinthians 9:14)
You bless us with your work and we want you to be well-compensated. You have given up much by obeying God instead of pursuing a worldly career. We know that God will reward you in Heaven but we are honored to support you on earth.
I have benefitted tremendously from your books and video products and will continue to buy your products. You’re stepping out on faith when you recommend worthy works from other, and God will bless you for your humility and obedience.
Dirk,
As a former Pre, and Post-Trib person, I believe you give a very strong reason to hold to Post. I could not get around the first resurrection as being stated as happening right at Rev 20:5, until I understood more about the word “parousia”, and following the trail to where it leads. If you have not read Alan Kurschner’s book, “Antichrist Before the Day Of The Lord”, I encourage you to pick up a copy. I believe the weight of all the peices of the puzzle falls on the Pre-Wrath side. Having said that, may I remind you of Jhn 14:1-3, it seems to show Jesus is preparing a place for us in the Heavenly city, and that is where we will dwell. Ezek 40-48 shows land and dwellings for national Israel, not the Church, that are destined to make it through the great trib and populate the earth during the 1000 year reign of Christ. The heros of the faith looked for a heavenly country, where the holy city is. Notice Heb 12:22-24, you read of Mt Zion “and”- to the city of the living God, the “heavenly Jerusalem”. So the earthly Jerusalem, or Mt. Zion, will be the seat of Government on earth for the 1000 years, and I believe for eternity. The heavenly city could set down upon the earth, or remain hovering above the earth “over” Jerusalem and the Temple, with ramparts leading up into it- after the 1000 years. Rev 21-22. I mean, the heavenly Jerusalem will be done once Christ comes back, becuse the “Bride” has made herself ready. It could be visible above the earth during the 1000 year reign, like that movie Ellsyum?-with Matt Damion. The point I am trying to make is, just because Jesus will be reigning in Jerusalem during the 1000 years, does not mean the whole church and all the saints will be camped out around her- Jesus will come and go, and the saints with glorified bodies will too-to our habitation in heaven, in the heavenly city. David, or the “prince” in Ezek 40-48, will be in charge of the city when Jesus is elsewhere, and also have a place to live in the city-becuse that is his portion and job. He will still have a place in heaven too- At least this is how I see it. So Dirk, I believe you are limiting yourself when you hold so tightly to the first resurrection as only having to take place at 20:5. Jesus makes it clear it starts at the parousia, but when does the parousia or comming start, when does He arrive? This is the key, this allows the first resurrection to take place over a period of time, staring at the sith seal in Rev, and ending with the martyrs, and most likely, some of the OT saints that will live in the land and partake of a earthly inheritance-teaching and helping national Israel with the sacrifical system and all that it entails. I believe as gentile nations populate and expand, we of the church age will help administrate these cities and countries. Again, it can’t happen all at once becuse immortal people must be born and populate the earth. We will be immortal and glorified, so we cannot be bribed or corrupted. Also it is hard to get around 1Thess 5:9, that we are not appointed us for wrath, and 1:10, that Jesus “rescues” us from the wrath to come. Rev 6:16-17-8 makes it clear the wrath of God is only going to take place when the trumpets are blown. And we also have those that came out of “great tribulation”, just before the wrath takes place. They are shown as victorious and in heaven before the wrath comes down. Like I said, you have a strong argument, but I believe the majority of the “problems” are resolved when we understand the parousia- not two seperate, but one “whole”, with an arrival, and a possession of the Kingdom. 🙂
Dirk, Sorry I meant “mortal” people will be born during the 1000 year reign. Oops! Not much of a speller either- please over look. :)Big subject!
Hello, Steve. Thanks for your comments. I still have the following concerns:
” Jhn 14:1-3Open in Logos Bible Software (if available), it seems to show Jesus is preparing a place for us in the Heavenly city, and that is where we will dwell.”
True, but there’s no clue as to timing. Certainly, a place is being prepared in heaven, but please observe that the place in heaven is coming down to earth:
Revelation 21 “21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.”
” Ezek 40-48 shows land and dwellings for national Israel, not the Church,”
I believe these are one and the same.
“So Dirk, I believe you are limiting yourself when you hold so tightly to the first resurrection as only having to take place at 20:5. ”
I’m open to explore that, but I have not seen scripture to the contrary.
“Jesus makes it clear it starts at the parousia, but when does the parousia or comming start, when does He arrive?”
He clearly shows up in Revelation 19, after the destruction of Mystery Babylon, and appears to be blood-drenched (fighting at the end of the tribulation): “11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.”
This appears to be at the end of the tribulation, as the entire description of the tribulation as offered in Revelation is complete at this time, and the last event described is the coming of Messiah and defeat of Messiah’s enemies.
“This is the key, this allows the first resurrection to take place over a period of time, staring at the sith seal in Rev, and ending with the martyrs, and most likely,”
I don’t understand. What scripture(s) indicates that the first resurrection begins before the sixth seal? What scriptures indicate that the first resurrection is anything other than instaneous or otherwise that it occurs over a length of time?
Please forgive me if that sounds argumentative. I believe I understand your position, but what scripture(s)provide evidence for it?
“Also it is hard to get around 1Thess 5:9Open in Logos Bible Software (if available), that we are not appointed us for wrath, ”
I don’t believe it is very difficult at all. I find the following scriptures to be quite helpful in that regard:
Rev. 7 “3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”…“These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?” 14 I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. ”
Rev. 9 ” They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.”
Rev. 11 “3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”[a] 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die.”
Rev 12. “She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. …14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. …16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.”
Scripture is full of instances where God has kept his people from his own wrath (Noah) and from the wrath of others (Moses). Because it has already happened so many times before, I don’t find it a stretch to believe that those in Messiah are simply shielded from the wrath.
“Like I said, you have a strong argument, but I believe the majority of the “problems” are resolved when we understand the parousia- not two seperate, but one “whole”, with an arrival, and a possession of the Kingdom”
Blessings and thanks to you for commenting. If you can answer the following questions, I could agree with your position: “What scripture(s) indicates that the first resurrection begins before the sixth seal? What scriptures indicate that the first resurrection is anything other than instantaneous or otherwise that it occurs over a length of time?”
Ordered it, cannot wait to read.
Joel, I know you slightly answered me in regards to Ellis Skolfield’s The False Prophet, you had said it has mistakes and faults. I am just wondering if it is at all possible for the abomination of desolation to in fact be the Dome of the Rock. I’ve also read that Yeshua can come any time on Messianic Jewish websites and that the “Time of Jacob’s Trouble” was during the Holocaust. Author of website betemunah(.)org wrote this:
“As for the seven year tribulation period, consider the words of our Rabbis:
Our Rabbis taught: in the seven year cycle at the end of which the son of David will come-in the first year, this verse will be fulfilled: And I will cause it to rain upon one city and cause it not to rain upon another city;[1] in the second, the arrows of hunger will be sent forth;[2] in the third, a great famine, in the course of which men, women, and children, pious men and saints[3] will die, and the Torah will be forgotten by its students; in the fourth, partial plenty;[4] in the fifth, great plenty, when men will eat, drink, and rejoice, and the Torah will return to its disciples; in the sixth, [Heavenly] sounds;[5] in the seventh, wars; and at the conclusion of the septennate the son of David will come (the first year of the next Shmita cycle). R. Joseph demurred: But so many septennates have passed, yet has he not come! — Abaye retorted: Were there then [Heavenly] sounds in the sixth and wars in the seventh! Moreover, have they [sc. the troubles] been in this order![6]
There is an opinion that the suffering of the holocaust constituted this seven year period. Never the less, it is an axiom of faith that Messiah can come at any time, even now.
Thoughts?
Dirk,
1Cor 15:23,1Thess 2:19,3:13,4:15,5:23,2Thess 2:1,8, Matt 24:3,27,37,39. This is the trail I was talking about. This is the parousia-3952 presence, coming, advent. If you look at Rev 6:16-“Fall on us and hide us from the PRESENCE-prosopon-4383 face, a part of the body, by extension:in someones presence, sight. Notice: #1. The threefold witness in the sun, moon, and stars-Just as Jesus told us would happen in Matt 24. #2. Wrath is only now going to take place in short order. Jesus told us at this very time in Matt 24:36-41, one would be TAKEN-paralambano-3880 to take with;take charge of;to recieve, accept. This is the same word with the meaning in the verse Jesus used in Jhn 14:3, “I will RECIEVE you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.” #3. We read the great tribulation is cut short, by the threefold witness in the sun, moon, and stars. Rev 7:13-17, says plainly, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation. John was caught off gaurd about this multitude that appeared all at once fron every nation, tribe, peoples and tongues. They were taken “out of” the sphere of danger, just as Noah was-in the Ark, above the flood waters. #4. Everyone on earth is hiding from Jesus and God at the sixth seal. In Rev 20, all armies are ready to fight against Jesus-these are two seperate events, seperated by the trumpet and bowl judgments-the day of the Lord. This seperation is shown in Matt 24- the parousia. Matt 25:31-46, the possession of the Kingdom-same as Rev 6:12-17, 19:11-20:1-6. Notice the word parousia is not used in Rev 19-20, or Matt 25. That is because the arrival happened in Matt 24, and at the sith seal in Rev. Jesus arrives and rescues us before His wrath-not just protection, that is why national is being sealed, for protection-because they are not saved yet. He then puts the earth under His wrath where everyone knows and feels the effects of this. He then returns to take possession of the earth and to set up His Kingdom. All part and parcel of the parousia. This is what I see Dirk. If you don’t it is fine, I could not get over Matt 24 as being Rev 19-20 for the longest time. But Matt 24 is describing the events of the seals, not trumpets and bowls. Matt 25:31 jumps to describe Rev 19:11-20:6, this is what most people don’t realize IMO. Hope this helps! The Pre-Trib View directly contradicts Jesus-that He will not come back until after the great tribulation. But both Post, and Pre-Wrath stay true to His words. So both are possible, and we will probably have to wait until He does come back to settle this brother! 🙂
I just finished the book last night the only problem I had with their Feast of Trumpets/Yom Kippur being the period between being the Day of the Lord. They deal nicely with the fact that the 5th Trumpet Judge meant in Rev 9 last 5 months. So they extended the period to 1 year. 1 Year and 10 days is the period of time Noah and his family were protected from God’s Wrath/Deluge in the Ark. It has a lot of good reference material and well documented. I heartily recommend it as a companion to Alan Kurscher’s AntiChrist Before the Day of The Lord.
Hi dirk and Steve.
I trust you are well Joel.
Regarding John 14:3 and Jesus preparing a place for us.
After realizing the error of the pre trib and spending months addressing my questions, that was the one text i could not work out as it did seem like Jesus was preparing us a mansion in heaven,which bothered me as our destiny was earth.
One evening as i was going to bed totally shattered. I go to prepare a place for you came to my thoughts, I ‘told God’ i couldn’t think about
it now as i was very very tired, as my head was touching the pillow,i literally heard the words, HE PREPARED THAT PLACE AT THE CROSS.
I woke up.
I had never heard that before, i was startled, i couldn’t sleep till i
looked into it(so i googled exactly that). this is what i found:
1. In my fathers house ARE(present tense) many mansions,Jesus was not going to prepare the mansions (abodes) as they all ready existed, He was going to prepare the place; he was going to the cross to purchase and guarantee us a place in his fathers house, i was so excited.
2.The temple was always known as his fathers house. Rev3:12 is interesting, but im not sure if this is referring to the millenium temple or new Jerusalem.
Either way, my understanding of that text completely changed, and another problem was solved(at least for me). i realize it may be a small thing, but i was really thrilled.
AS tiny Tim said, God bless us, every one.
Hello Emily,
When I saw you mentioned having read an Ellis Scolfield book I just had to jump in here. I know you were addressing your remarks to Joel, but please bear with me a moment. Over twenty years ago, I read Ellis’ Scolfield’s book, “The Hidden Beast.” Wow! Did he ever have it all figured out! Of course, any one could see that the blasphemous structure, the Dome of the Rock, on God’s Holy Hill had to be the desolating abomination. The Holocaust, as devastating as it was, had to be Jacob’s trouble. I cannot remember all else he wrote of, but at the time, I resonated with it! I especially liked his long time lines, which got us away from that end of the age, time of worst trouble EVER, that I so wanted to avoid It also gave Israel a break. The worst was over for them..Whew! Then, as the Lord would have it, I began to dig deeper, becoming more of a Berean in the process. I admit to getting a lot of help from Joel’s writings, as well as others. You need to take a very careful look at Daniel 12:1-4. Note what caused the Angel Michael to stand to his feet. What did he see Israel going through? Turn now to Matthew 24:4-31, and see what Jesus says about a great tribulation, how he distinguishes it. Note what He says happens right after the tribulation. I think you will have to conclude that this is in the perhaps not too distant future. It frustrates me to hear pastors and preachers talk about how Jesus could return at anytime. Really? Did Jesus, Himself, characterize His coming in that way? Did the early apostles really believe that, as we are always assured that they did? I say – what a major disconnect! Jesus’ own words contradict it. Paul, in 2Thessalonians 2 contradicts it, also. I will admit to one good outcome for me for having read Mr. Scolfield’s error-filled book, it made me a lover of Israel. It made me a prayerful watchman. I hope this was illuminating to you. We always have to check the Word, itself. That is what we are to abide in.
Blessings,
Kathy
When I first read Ellis Scolfield’s book it seemed to make sense, but after more carefully considering many of his views, I have come to disagree with many, if not not most of them. I generally do not like to do this, as I think he has good intentions. The Dome of the Rock, no doubt is a foreshadow of the Abomination, but it is not it. Nor could the Holocaust have been the time of Jacob’s Trouble. It is clear that these things happen at the every end. Some of Scolfield’s calculations actually do not add up and require a some finagling to make them work. Although brief, I hope this somewhat answers your question.
The meaning of in my Fathers House are many spaces, in my opinion, is a reference to the disciples who will live with Jesus in the Temple. “My Father’s House” is simply a reference to the future millennial Temple.
Joel, I completely agree with you regarding “in my Father’s House (temple) are many rooms.” In the temple in Jerusalem were apartments for the priests. I think this is what Jesus was referring to. He will be there and the disciples with him.
I think “mone`” means rooms in this context. mone` is derived from meno: “a staying”. Thus “mone`” is a staying place, apartment, room, residence.
Thank you Joel
(I did not intend to take your time)
Inside i did think it was the millennium temple, but as i’m only me, i didn’t want to sound dogmatic, i did in my search read what Nelson just commented on.
Bad timing for me, i shared in church that i no longer thought we had a ‘mansion over the hilltop'(not something i usually do) just before the senior paster came up to teach on the pre trib. We did chat after,and he was fine,just thought id lost it a bit.
🙂
Hi all,
Great comments! I too believe our destiny is back on a renewed earth, for sure- but also believe the heavenly city or “Bride” is a special place-seperate from Mt Zion where the Mill Temple is, along with the division of the land for Israel-the earthly being a “copy” kinda of the heavenly city, which is a country too. And that will probably set down on the earth, but could be suspended slighly above. Joel do you believe the Mill Temple will be destroyed along with the earth after the 1000 year reign? Or do you believe it will be chaged, but still the same earth-preserving the culture that Jesus and the saints have built? I use to believe God would start over, but not so after reading Randy Alcorns book “Heaven”, and reading comments in Wayne Grudems “Systematic Theology”, along with my personal study. This is all good stuff for sure! 🙂
Thanks, Joel
You and Walid Shoebat have been a blessing in me and my dad’s life in regards to understanding bible prophecy 🙂
Hello Again, Steve.
“This is the key, this allows the first resurrection to take place over a period of time”
I don’t think that position can be reconciled with the following verse: ” According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.”
As I understand the above passage, the believers who are alive at the time of the coming of the Lord will not be gathered to him before those who have died for the Lord. This would seem to destroy the concept that those who are dead in Messiah will be revived over any period of time during which the living are brought to the Messiah.
“Everyone on earth is hiding from Jesus and God at the sixth seal.”
They are saying that they want to be hidden from the one who is sitting on the throne (not that the throne is present, or that the one who is sitting on the throne has arrived). Everyone is going to be taken to the face that sits on the throne, but people absolutely do not want that, because it is a terrifying prospect. I would take their statement more as “Don’t take me in front of the judge” rather than “the judge is here, presently.”
But I understand your point, as there is an ambiguity in Rev. 6 as to timing.
“ But both Post, and Pre-Wrath stay true to His words. So both are possible, and we will probably have to wait until He does come back to settle this brother!”
It may be so. Blessings to you.
I have to agree with Dirk here. It seems pretty clear the timing of the first resurrection is at the time Messiah comes back to put an end to the enemies of Israel and establish His kingdom.
Hey Joel,
Thanks for the recommendation, it was an interesting read. I disagree with some of their conclusions, but it only makes us all dig deeper and study harder. Noach didn’t have to bury any bodies or clean up any messes; Scripture makes it pretty clear that will be the case for us after the war with Gog.
Still believe we will see the Fall Feasts fulfilled in the same calendar year (or month to be more exact), but this was a fun and well organized book.
Hello to Randall and all,
I am a co-author of The Last Shofar! and wanted to respond to Randall’s comments. First, thank you for your thoughts. I can tell you are a good student of the Scriptures.
Related to the War of God and Megog, we agree with Joel’s position that this war is the same as the Battle of Armegeddon, which occurs after the physical return of Jesus at the end of the 70th Week of Daniel, which is after the Rapture and after the start of the Day of the Lord, before the start of the Millennium. The Church has been in heaven during the Day of the Lord, protected from God’s wrath. Hence, the “burying of any bodies or cleaning up any messes” to which you refer would be beyond the timeframe of Noah on the ark, which we believe to be the timeframe that the Church is protected in heaven from God’s later wrath of the Day of the Lord. So, yes, Noah did not have to participate in the “burying of any bodies or cleaning up any messes” so to speak, but I don’t see where that affects our case.
Related to the Fall Feasts possibly being fulfilled “in the same calendar year (or month to be more exact),” if our case is correct that the Rapture and the start of the Day of the Lord occur on the Feast of Trumpets, in light of the fifth Trumpet Judgment lasting at least five month, this would extend the Day of the Lord beyond a single month, which is one of the reasons we accept a one-year cycle plus 10-days for the interval from the fulfillment of the Feast of Trumpets (Rapture, etc.) and the physical return of Jesus to earth on Yom Kippur (10-days after the Feast of Trumpets on the Jewish calendar), hence, the one-year-and-ten-days period, which is also the exact period of time that Noah and his family was protected in the ark. So, rather than both of these Fall Feasts being fulfilled by Jesus at His Second Coming during the month of Tishri (the seventh month in which the Feast of Trumpets and Yom Kippur occur), we believe a one-year-and-ten-day period is the better understanding for all the reasons laid out in our book.
I commend you on your interest and desire to understand “all these things.” We have given our best understanding of the fulfillment of the Fall Feasts by Jesus and the chronology of the second half of the 70th Week of Daniel.
Joel’s books as well as The Last Shofar! and the recent books by Alan Kurschner and Mark Davidson provide good study for serious eschatology students. We feel that they are timely, ground-breaking understandings during this time when God seems to be opening the seals of the visions of Daniel for the benefit of preparing the Church for upcoming events. Praise God.
Thanks to Joel for the opportunity to offer these comments.
Joseph,
With all due respect you lose me on the “church is in Heaven” during the bowls of wrath, which I believe coincide with the Ten Days of Awe. Being in the Messiah’s presence is all the protection I will need.
I don’t see the original language allowing for a second parousia – and the prophets tell us that Messiah will be busy defeating the enemies of Israel while leading His people to the land. The idea of believers going to Heaven in a raptured state, whether briefly or for eternity is clearly a Christian concept, not Jewish, nor do most Messianic Jews I know who have studied the prophets hold to such an idea.
Nonetheless, I enjoyed your book.
Randall
I haven’t read the whole book yet, but many of the ideas I’ve heard before many years ago reading material put out by Avi Ben Mordechai, a Messianic Jewish author and researcher (http://www.m7000.com/). Nice to see some other authors making the connection and promoting these Old Testament concepts.
While unfortunately Mr. Mordechai made the mistake of making some bold and narrow predictions in his (now out of print) book “Signs in the Heavens”, he did present a detailed overview of the biblical celestial signs (similar to the more recent “The Star of Bethlehem” documentary) and how the Jewish feasts were a shadow of things to come. Here’s a link if anyone is curious:
Sign in the Heavens (book):
http://www.amazon.com/Signs-Heavens-Messianic-Perspective-Millennium/dp/0964335573/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1407862701&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=signs+in+the+heavens+avi+ben+mordechai
Hey Joel, I’m finally starting to come around to the idea that Antichrist will be from an Islamic background in some way at least. The fact that Ezekiel 38 is the final battle and that the Messiah fights Egypt, Edom, Bozrah etc. seems to show a Muslim confederacy. However, most people don’t seem to understand the difference between the House of Israel (10 northern Tribes) and the House of Judah (Judah and Benjamin or Jews.) Not all of Israel is Jewish. Not once in Scripture does it say all Israel is Jewish. There was no “Jews” in modern sense until the kingdom split under Jeroboam and Jeroboam. In the texts of Ezekiel 38 and 39 we find that the House of Israel is present because they have been gathered out of exile per the Resurrection-gathering before the bowls of wrath at Messiah’s return.
Most prophecy students overlook the difference between the Two Houses. The Northern Kingdom was scattered and assimilated into the nations, and only Judah returned after the exile. Also, if we look at prophecy from a Hebraic perspective, its a bit clearer. Thus, the House of Israel must be restored by the Second Coming of Christ in His gathering of the elect from around the Earth. They literally became Gentiles per 1 Kings 2 Kings and Hosea.
With this in mind it becomes absolutely irrefutable that the Ezekiel 38 war is synonymous with the Battle of the Day of The LORD in the Kidron (Jehoshaphat) Valley. Megiddo is simply where they all gather, nothing more.
Also, a final point I would like to mention is the Blood Moon Tetrad of 2014 and 2015 falling on Feast Days, and then again 20 years from now in 2032/2033/2034 time frame we have them again with the heavenly signs. Incidentally Isaiah 13:10 says:
“For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.”
On the Feast of Trumpets in 2034 we have a partial solar eclipse(darkened sun), during a New Moon when the “moon does not give its light.” If we go back to the Torah we find that the Time of Jacob’s Trouble was 20 years long, because that is how long Laban gave him trouble. Isaiah 46:10 “Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:”
Just a quick thought that I think you’ll be interested in looking into considering that the previous times we saw these signs important events surrounding Israel took place. I’m not setting a date in stone, it just seems to fit quite nicely with all the events in the Middle East right now.
That last comment should be divided into Jeroboam and Rehoboam. My mistake.I wrote Jeroboam twice. It’s still an important theological concept to grasp, and makes the timing in Scripture all the more clear.
Bryan,
You said:
This is only partially true, and is often overstated by those who argue for the ten tribes being lost. The term “Jews” originally referred to those from the southern kingdom of Judah, but words often have an evolution of meaning in Scripture, just like they do in our times. Eventually “Jews” came to refer to all Israel. During the first century, many from the various tribes were already back in the land. They were called Jews. For example, Anna, who interceded in the Temple in Luke 2 was from Asher:
Source: The Ephraimite Error.
The terms “Israel” and “Jews” eventually became somewhat interchangeable. Even back in Jeremiah’s day, we read an address to the:
Source: The Ephraimite Error.
So while there are some mysteries concerning the full restoration of all Israel, ala Ezekiel 37, the case for all of northern Israel being lost is frequently wildly overstated. Sorry so brief. I hope this has helped.
Blessings
Hi Joel
Yes “the last shofar” does look to be an interesting book. The charts in chapter 7 which illustrate their whole thesis is very similar to the chart of TedMontgomery.com Rapture part 2. The last shofar is more accurate because they do not have the 7 bowls after the end of the 70th week of Daniel. Instead they have it before the end of the 70th week where the bible places it and therefor no bowl judgements when the feast of Tabernacles (wedding supper) is being celebrated on earth 5 days after Atonement.
Both of these sources follow the order of Lev 23 + the feast of Hanukkah which is commendable, BUT-however-they both brake the already fulfilled biblical pattern of one after the other in QUICK succession. This is how the first 4 feasts were fulfilled from Passover to Pentecost and how the last 4 feasts will be fulfilled
from feast of Trumpets to Hanukkah in exactly the same way. There are 10 days between the feast of Trumpets and the day of Atonement not 370?? or do we join with the Torahless one and seek to change the appointed times??
Regards Glen
Hi again Joel
Just another thought about the last shofars endtime outline to do with the millennial kingdom. The book has the millennium starting at the feast of Hanukkah 75 days after Yom Kippur which is the day of the Lords 2nd coming to the earth. BUT Yeshua says that his kingdom is present at least at the time of his 2nd coming in Mt13:40-41 when angels weeds out of HIS KINGDOM at the end of this age. This is 75 days BEFORE Hanukka?? In addition to this we are told exactly when His kingdom starts and thats about the time of the 7th trumpet Rev 11:15-17,in this text it is stated that He has “BEGUN TO REIGN”. Therefor how can the kingdom millennial riegn start at Hanukkah months later??
The right prophetic fulfillment of Hanukkah which celebrates the rededication of the temple is the return of the Shekinah Glory to the earthly temple, DURING the milennium not at the begining.
Shalom Glen