48 Responses

1. I would need to hear the entire debate, but there is enough intrigue to explore both sides. Just curious if Doug is as authentic as you, Joel? Im not questioning his motives without that knowledge, but if one wanted to draw interest to ones teachings and to sell more books, saying America is a central focus and could be mystery Babylon would help immensely, especially in our society where belief in God is not as strong as it once was. I’m on your side that America is on the periphery of this discussion.

2. I think Doug is very sincere in his beliefs. He’s a very nice guy as well. His arguments however when examined carefully are not convincing, at least not to me.

   FWIW, portions of the discussion were edited. Without really intending to, I made a zinger and for some reason they edited it out.

   Also, FWIW, my next book is specifically about the Harlot Babylon, and I have a chapter which explains in much better detail as to why the USA simply does not fit the biblical descriptions of the Harlot. It will be out early next year. Doug’s comments that abortions in the USA fulfill the prophecy concerning the guilt of the Harlot for the shed blood of the “saints and prophets” in my opinion, is a particularly weak argument. There is imply no way that the USA is the primary nation or entity in the world responsible for the persecution of believers. That is a big one.

3. Joel, great job, Doug is a nice guy but mis-guided by post reform bs.
   about Greece in the bible, read a bunch of different bibles.
   I came up with this fact, Yavan in my bible Javan is others, is translated to turkey not Greece. see if I have this correct. this might answer a BIG question. remember Javan was where Alexander came from Javan is a region in Asia Minor.
   be interested in knowing what you think.
   ted

4. Cavan in the Hebrew term which points to the western coast of Turkey and often both sides of the Aegean Sea. Later, it came to refer to all of the Middle east conquered by Greece.

5. I still think the best argument for the identity of the AntiChrist and Babylon is the theology of the beast system. The basic core belief that God is not a Father and does not have a Son is a central point of Islam, and NOT of America or any western nation. While America certainly has its issues, as you point out, it just does not fit the criteria. I look forward to your new book, as I greatly enjoyed all your previous ones.

6. The thing is, Gods word will never contradict itself, if Daniel 8 and 11 say that ac comes from the north quarter of the Grecian empire, which did not include Rome, then Daniel 9 couldn’t possibly be saying anything different.

   I think that the only feasible way satan can gain the allegiance of all of those Islamic nations, is to use Islam itself. It fits perfectly with the scriptural signs we are given. Its tragic that the peoples of the middle east have already been set up to serve the ac before he even arrives on the scene.

   Good program Joel.

7. Islam is the religion of My father Abraham
   Christianity as it’s today is the religion of the pagan Roman Empire.

8. Abdullah,

   Please think deeply about the fact that all of these things were done by pagans in pre-Islamic times: Kissing black stones, walking in circles around temples (Hindus still do this), and making pilgrimage to Mecca. None of these practices have any basis in the worship of Yahweh, the one true God of the Bible. These were practices that were carried out by those who worshipped various Middle Eastern astral (sun and moon), war (jihad), and fertility goddesses. This is why the heads of the statues of Aphrodite, Astarte, Diana, Artemis, or Venus, whatever name she went by, were often made from black meteorite stones, just like the black stone on the Kaaba.

9. You did well on the debate. It was very limited and kind of scattered all over the place but you couldn’t control that. I can’t wait for your debate with Tommy Ice where you both can dig deeper. The Western Antichrist theory is breaking down and debates like this will continue to dismantle it.

10. Joel,

    I remember in prior conversations you said you were not dogmatic about the harlot’s identity. Do you believe Mystery Babylon to be Mecca?

11. After having worked through it all systematically, I think that Mecca and Saudi Arabia are by far the best options we have. Apart from something new emerging in the future, the is where we should be looking. Wait for the book before making any conclusions. This book, I think will be as powerful or more than my first book on the Islamic Antichrist.

12. Loved the debate! If it’s ok, I would love to share, with all who listen to your program, Joel, about a lengthy discussion that you had with John B. Wells on “Caravan To Midnight”. Found it by typing in “Joel Richardson” in the search bar on YouTube. It is episode #535, and Joel’s segment starts at around the 1:35:00 mark. Joel is given an abundance of time to express himself within an almost two hour interview! So much info, I have watched it two times.

    I appreciate you greatly, Joel!

13. Thanks for sharing the information on Joel’s segment of “Caravan To Midnight” Linda. I was impressed with the amount of time allowed for Joel to express his views. I will be sharing this with others. A great informative piece on what has been and is going on in the middle east.

14. Hello Joel,
    Very good interview with John B Wells.

    Thank you Linda Houser, for posting this interview, we also listened twice.

15. In the interest of accuracy the Hebrew term you meant for Turkey and the Greek Isles is יון. Yavan in modern Hebrew. Yawan in Biblical Hebrew. I understand these mistakes happen. I hope you and your family are well.

16. One argument gets stronger while at the very same time exposing the weakness of the other. This is exactly why more churches should allow debates in their midst among Bible believing members and with humility as the focus.. Lies divide and Truth unites …not the absence of confrontation as so many of our western churches have caved into the traditional view of everything. They have lost the ability to examine the Scripture to see if what they are hearing is true or not. Tradition does not equal truth it often leads to gross ignorance especially in areas that Jesus said to read and understand.

17. Joel thank you for your work. You are sort of my go-to for prophecy instruction. I have seen a theory by Walid Shoebat about 666 being ‘in the name of Allah’. I’m not sure but I think I have seen that you do not support this. Can you please provide me a link or information here explaining why you think Shoebat is incorrect. Thanks for your help.

18. Chuck,

    There are many folks giving their hand at explaining the problems with Walid’s theory. Here is one:

    http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/15628/evidence-from-early-manuscripts-of-revelation-1318

19. Would you comment on what I see as the iron and the clay. I see the clay as the progressive movement, the apologists, that which is behind much liberalism,media ( All of this for lack of a better term). The iron as Islam. The woman carries the beast until the beast turns against her.
    It is in the thought of Erdogan who said that democracy is like a streetcar that takes us to our destination and then we get off.
    The way Merkel,Cameron and most every major world leader and media is dhimming up to Islam only to have played the fool in the end.

20. The clay and iron are what they are described as. One is brittle, one is hard.

    The Harlot however is not soft. The woman is drunk with the blood of saints and prophets. She is also primarily religious in nature.

21. Brother Joel…Just want to encourage you..Finally I’ve found a teacher that speaks to me in a language that I can understand..Recently I just made a new friend that was raised Muslim and is a recent convert to Christianity. I sent her directly to you. God bless your ministry…The battle is real and the party’s just getting started.

22. Hi, Joel. I agree that the beast (system) is Islam, but the harlot riding it is likely the (imho) Socialism/Marxism agenda. Consider this.. The western society/nations have pretty much abandoned God to go whoring after flawed philosophies. Even America, which was built upon His concepts and blessed among nations, has made the mere mention of Him almost illegal. The west, once ambassadors for Christ, now plays the proud harlot. The leftist agenda stirred up the Muslim nations by inciting the people to revolt, Arab Spring, et al.. The opposite of democracy occurred. Even now they think they can mold and manipulate Islam into something it isn’t. Look at the millions of “guests” in Europe who won’t assimilate, even calling for the death of the west. I think it’s a safe assumption to say that future voting likelihood plays a part of why they’re being welcomed in the US, while persecuted mideast Christians and other minority groups are overlooked. Socialism is riding the beast, imagining they can control it.. until it turns around and destroys them.

23. Avery,

    There are several reason why this interpretation does not work.

    The Harlot is not merely a concept such as socialism or marxism. It is a literal city, a definable geopolitical entity that can be identified.

    Beyond that, the Harlot is specifically a literal desert city.

    Above everything else, the Harlot itself represents a false religion. It is the great source of missionary activity in terms of spreading and supporting the religion of the Antichrist in partnership with the beast. IT cause the world to become drunk with the maddening wine (rage) of the false religion.

    The Harlot itself is drunk on the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. It works with the Antichrist to kill the saints.

    The Harlot specifically represents the biggest and greatest idolatrous system or false religion the world has ever known. Socialism or marxism is not a religion, but a lack of religion, or a socio-financial-political construct.

    When the beast turns around and devours the woman, it is intended to be both shocking and entirely ironic. The two are both the same. Both scarlet, both serving the same religion.

    The west might be one of the greatest Johns or clients of the Harlot, but she is not herself the actual Harlot.

    This is just a start. I hope it helps.

    Blessings,
    Joel

24. Joel,
    Who would you say the clay is? I know clay is brittle but it can also be soft and shaped.Clay can be pliable,easily influenced. Where I live the soil has a lot of clay in it. Clay soil quickly turns brittle or hard to soft with the change of weather.
    I shouldn’t of used the scripture of the woman riding the beast and then the beast turning against her although that is betrayal is going to eventually happen to those apologists and elitist who think they are exempt. I saw your DVDs on Understanding the Times and hold creditable your conclusion.
    I just see the spirit of the age wanting to coexist with Islam as evil as it is. They are “carrying” it,defending it, and for example with the overthrow of Sadum Hussain,Gadaffi,Mubarak and if they can- Assad, these leaders who helped overthrow these dictators are furthering the cause of Islam. Case and point are the refugees who are a result of the above overthrows.
    The ministry the Lord has given you has been so helpful and timely to me. I am wanting to put what I consider hard questions to someone I respect and knows how to divide matters to make them clear. I do not see iron and clay as Sunni and Shiite.

    I’ll also add another aspect although related. What recently transpired in North Carolina looked like things to come. How the economy of that state was threatened for those standing upon matters of conscience. Is this not a foretaste of the test believers and people who still have a conscience might face that they can not buy or sell unless they conform. Not just a result of bowing to the image but this other “alliance” who has been on the same page with them. The same authority that allows many Muslim refugees in but a very minute amount of Christian refugees.
    Finally I do not put my hope in any political leader but am so refreshed how Trump has been used to shake the political system. Whether or not he comes to power,the opposition will be in a RAGE and if they are allowed to continue in power in the near future it will likely be even more unrestrained,lawless and immoral than ever before- like a flood. Then Christianity in the US might be shaken as was the politically Then it will be costly to be a Christian. What a mercy this would be if we could be so jolted out of our complacency. The Lord’s Testimony might not be be gray in America but black and white for all to see. Then maybe we could be counted worthy to follow Him in His steps as sheep for the slaughter. Then maybe His coming would be seen as glorious. Of coarse that wouldn’t sit well for those who continue to hold on to the pre- trib hope with white knuckles. They might even become disillusioned.
    My question was about the clay.

25. It is not soft pliable clay. It is like hard brittle clay like pottery.

    “As the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle. “And in that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery. (Daniel 2:42-43)

    These are the brittle or weaker nations in the 10 nation coalition of the Antichrist.

26. Very good. Might of helped if I read the passage again first.
    Thanks

27. Forgive my brevity.

28. It’s possible that verse about the iron and clay could be talking about the two factions of Islam, Sunni and Shia. While their hatred of the Jews and Christians brings them together, they still despise one another as well making their union temporary. This might also explain the prophecy where it talks about the armies attacking Jerusalem turning on one another.

29. I suggest we simply interpret the text according to what it states. One is brittle and one is strong.

30. Joel
    Would love to hear your opinion about the “image ”
    could this be the recent hologram of Erdogan or is this strictly alagory

31. No it is not the recent hologram of Erdogan. The image is not set up until the mid-point of the 7 years, so we can only say that it is simply something we don’t know yet.

32. Mystery Babylon, When Jerusalem embraces the antichrist by Chris White is a very good book to read regarding who Mystery Bablon might be. Even if you don not agree with who Mystery Babylon is, the exposition of Revelation 17 & 18 is very insightful. It goes through the Scriptures pointing out 90 different qualities/characteristics to look for in the future Mystery Babylon.
    Thanks, Joel!, for sharing all your insights. I look forward to listening to your episodes each week.

33. Rhonda,

    White gave me a copy a year or so ago, after it came out. He’s an articulate guy, but his exegesis is lacking. Unfortunately, he makes several fatal errors and omissions. I take a chapter to discuss this in my forthcoming book on Mystery Babylon. Of all the options as to the identity of Mystery Babylon, Jerusalem is actually among the worst options.

34. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dY2uVNcUSbc

    This Islamic teaching youtube video taught me a lot about the Mahdi and how he is supposed to rule for 7 years and other Isamic end time beliefs
    Although you already may know this stuff.

35. Joel,
    The scriptures seems to say Jordan will escape the anit-Christ’s control. This seems surprising since Jordan is much weaker militarily than Egypt and other contries which do not.

    Could this be because he want’s to continue to enjoy Hashemite politial support for a Temple Mount sharing arrangement he negotiates to allow rebuilding of the Jewish temple ?

    It appears much of his influnece seems to result from intrigue and is not all brute force.

    If he does negotiate a sharing aggrement between Isarel and the Hashemites and this triggers a military response from the more militant surrounding mations, which the antiChrist quickly thwarts.
    He could initially be seen as not an agrresor, but as a man of peace ,forced to impose peace in the name of fairness.
    This all seems to fit. What do you think?

36. The Harlot is Mecca. Even Iran wants to destroy Mecca and replace it with Karbolah(sp) as the holy city of Islam. Allat, the daughter of Allah, was called of the mother of Harlots. Even the huge tower above the Kabbah in Mecca and the buildings around it are called Bab-allah – the gate to God. that is what what Bab-el means also.

37. The Kabbah was called the Image of Allah, and many Islamic scholars believe that in the end time when the Khalifah returns and the Mahdi rules, the Kabbah will speak.

38. Joel, do you think there is any weight to Ishmael becoming in Archer in Genesis 21:20 To The rider on the white horse in Revelation 6 having a bow.

    Since most pre-millinialist believe the rider on the white horse is the Antichrist, do you think Revelation could be tying the Ishmael bloodline to the end of the age Antichrist, or would you consider this a stretch?

39. Hello, Joel How are you ?
    Have you seen muslims praying in Al masjid Al Aqsa? More than 400,000 muslim this year. 🙂
    Enjoy
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYdYG4d945s

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGyRR7gIHUM

    They worship God of our father Abraham.

40. I was there in Jerusalem this year. They are worshipping the false god of the Kabba who is pretending to be the God of Abraham. Many however who come to faith in Jesus being to truly worship the God of Abraham.

41. Joel,
    I don’t mean to be thorn in your side but …
    The Druze are a small and very unusual people. I advise looking into their religion for a few reasons. The Jews in Israel seem to trust the Druze in government and the military. The religion is very chameleon like. Here like a Muslim, there like a Christian and another place like a Jew. The religion is very secretive. When Israel annexed the Golan, thousands of Druze became Israeli citizens. Please do a little research into their messianic figure.

    Daniel 11:23
    “And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully; and he shall come up and become strong, with a little nation”
    JPS Tanakh 1917

42. Islam may be in a big spotlight currently, but According to Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38, that will no longer be the case as end times events progress. A “one-hit-wonder” or “flash-in-the-pan” if you will. Here, and then gone.

43. Hi Jonathan,

    If the interpretation you have suggested is true (it’s demonstrably not the case. I highly encourage you to give my book Mideast Beast consideration) then how would you explain that fact that it is the surrounding nations around Israel that are consistently referred to as being judged and defeated specifically when Jesus returns throughout the prophets? How can they be wiped out twice within a several year period?

    Also, do you realize that if every Middle Eastern and North African Muslims majority nations were eliminated, that there would still be roughly 1.2 billion Muslims globally? Less than one third would be “eliminated.”

    Finally, if Islam is about to be diminished, would you suggest we push to complete the Great Commission among Muslims throughout the Middle East or simply wait for God’s judgments to fall?

44. I never meant to imply, nor did I understand the article from Bill Salus I sent to say that the Muslim faith would be wiped out, just the prominence of the faith diminished. Nor did I ever say that the gospel shouldn’t be shared with them and we should just wait for a “Jonah-ish” fire to fall. On the contrary, we should by all means be about the Lord’s business of sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ to all as the time is short! I’m just still not convinced that the Antichrist will be Muslim.

45. Good to hear. Unfortunately, that sentiment has been stated by numerous commenters who have come here under the influence of some of those works you mentioned I like Salus very much, but we do disagree. In any case, do consider my book as I have four chapters on this very subject. Blessings

46. One thing is for sure, the Antichrist will appear, he will hate our Jesus and all those who love and follow him, and will deceive many. I just want to be the best watchman on the wall I can be and share the gospel with all those I can until He comes!

47. True that.

48. I haven’t read your book dealing with the mother of harlots riding the beast in The Revelation, but I was wondering if, in it, you address the fact that v.8 of chapter 17 says that “the beast was, and is not”. If the beast is Islam, as you claim, then Islam did not start with Muhamed. Or are you conflating Isalm and the pagan the pagan religion that Mohamed “converted” to Islam? Was there a hiatus in this pagan religion at the time John wrote Revelation so that the angel could say that the beast (pre-Islamic pagan moon god religion) WAS but now is not, but will ascend again? I also wanted to mention something in regard to v. 8 of chapter 17 and also v.8 of chapter 13. I believe that the mention of the “foundation of the cosmos” contains a clue as to an important aspect of these beasts. The seven heads on the beast in Rev. 13 are often spoken of as being the seven empires that have persecuted God’s people through history. They came up one at a time and then faded out. So it could be said that they rose to prominence out of the “sea” ( the mass of nations) and then went back under into obscurity. I believe that is correct. But what has never happened is for ALL SEVEN TO APPEAR TOGETHER AT ONCE. That would definitely be a source of “amazement” and cause all the world to “wonder” (Rev 13:3 and 17:8) But it gets kicked up even another notch – This time, not only do all seven heads show up at once, but THE BEAST THAT GAVE RISE TO THESE SEVEN HEADS APPEARS AS WELL. I believe that no one that has ever lived in this present cosmos has has seen this beast. That is why the “foundation of the cosmos” is mentioned. This beast was “cast down” or “katabole” and is under the foundation of the present cosmos. The seven heads document the many efforts that this beast has made throughout our history to rise back up. I know modern scholars seem to have a large consensus of agreement that the “gap” theory of a previous creation being alluded to in Genesis 1:2 is without merit, but I can’t help but wonder if we are all missing something here.