4 Responses

1. Hi Joel,

   First post here!

   Thank you for your outstanding ministry!

   I have recommended you to others!

   I was in Boston, Brookline, and Cambridge for a while — but I would not have been in the Commons when you were sharing the Gospel there (I think you said on some Youtube video) because I was there “before your time.”

   The reason for this email is that a comment to your 4/24/20 Underground Episode “Daniel 8 Vision Explained” by Arthur J. Richner mentioned a video by Gavin Finley.

   Arthur said “he makes an excellent case for a future interpretation rather then fulfilled in the past,” and asked you what you thought of his argument.

   You said “I have not seen it. What are his main arguments summarized?”

   No further discussion followed; I became curious and watched the video.

   Arthur is right — Gavin Finley DOES make an excellent case…

   This could be a game changer…

   I could most definitely be wrong…

   But — it has the realistic potential of being a MAJOR game changer…

   Unaware of Finley, I quickly looked at his website (with it’s HUGE amount of information re. end-times issues, etc), including the “About Us” section — he seems to be a post-trib., huge supporter of Israel, talks about the “flight to Bozrah,” the “Bozrah deliverance,” by Jesus “the Breaker” per Micah 2, which he says is “never addressed by our current Bible prophecy teachers.” (On the actual video, he talks about the “Second Exodus,” etc.)

   In addition, he has a link to an interview with Christopher Mantei, and to a video re. the real Mt. Sinai which he describes as a “blockbuster discovery made by Jim and Penny Caldwell.”

   It appears he has not copyrighted anything he has done, saying “The time is late. I WANT this information to go viral.”

   (His focus seems to be on Christian matters — but he is an MD in Florida so he might also practice medicine.)

   I could be wrong, but based upon my QUICK look at the VAST amount of info on his site — he seems to hold valid views, in my opinion, of the basics of the faith, and other things as well (but I’m not sure what this Commonwealth of Israel thing is all about..maybe it’s fine).

   His MAIN POINT turns on ONE WORD…

   “QODAM” (Aramaic — Strongs’s H6925)— from Daniel 7:7 (poorly translated into English, usually as “before”):

   “After this I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were BEFORE it, and it had ten horns.” (NASB, Emphasis Mine)

   THE PROBLEM: EVERY other time qodam is used in Scripture, it is CLEARLY in the sense of — contemporaneous, in the same place at the same time (eg. a person was “before” the KING), — and NEVER in the sense of prior, or previous.

   YET:

   — perhaps due to deceiving spirits (as Finley speculates),

   —and perhaps because that’s what people want to believer, and are imposing their beliefs on God’s Word (ie. eisegesis [I wouldn’t want to be these people on Judgment Day, when teachers will be held to a higher standard — so “not many” should be teachers]).

   Yet this word is probably usually interpreted by readers as prior, or previous…and is at least ambiguous.

   Finley even notes (shockingly) that the NIV says “former,” and the ISV says “previous” — which appears to be utterly false.

   An IMPORTANT Quote from Finley’s Website:

   “The word “before can have two meanings. But the Aramaic word “qodam” has only one meaning. The word “before” can mean “existing in a previous time”. It can also mean, “in the presence of”. A quick accessing of Brown-Driver-Briggs or the Blue Letter Bible tells us the real story. The word “qodam” means “in the presence of” or “in front of”.

   So according to most of our Bible translators, Bible commentators and Bible prophecy teachers Daniel 7 has been said to be just a repeat of Daniel 2. That is, the first three beasts are said to be “in a previous time” to the fourth beast of the end-time New World Order. But when we do our homework we discover that this is the WRONG MEANING!

   There in Daniel 2 God lays out the history of ancient Gentile empires then stretching out to the modern era, declaring the end-time story before it happens…

   …Daniel 7 is a much narrower closer-in time focus, namely the 21st Century.”

   JOEL —AT NO EXTRA CHARGE — I’ll add a few thoughts of my own:

   It wouldn’t surprise me if the beginning of the final 7 years is MUCH further in the future than we think — remember those 88 reasons the rapture had to happen in 1988?

   2. If so, it would explain why some things just sorta don’t make sense — like the 4 heads — but after Alexander the Great there were REALLY 5 heads.

   But sometime in the future the 4 heads might make perfect sense.

   And if Mark Davidson’s theory about the First Signpost, Sadam and Iraq is wrong, then the true “First Signpost” might be clear in the future.

   3. Nothing sounds more like a rapid airlift from Turkey (with it’s enormous military) to Iran than this part of Dan 8:

   “coming from the west over the surface of the whole earth without touching the ground” (NASB)

   In no way, ever, could what happened in the distant past, with it’s distant past military technology, be honestly characterized as “over the whole earth without touching the ground” — and if it was “just meant to mean” “fast,” I’ll bet different words would have been used…in my humble opinion…

   4. If we say Qodam means “previous,” because otherwise it would contradict our personal theory that Dan 2 and 7 are essentially the same, then we might be the SAME as those who say the little horn in Dan 8 is not the Antichrist, because otherwise it would contradict their personal theory that the A/C can’t come from the Seleucid Empire…

   5. …and we also might be like those who say Dan. 9:24-27 is not about the Messiah, just some “announted one,” just because it contradicts their personal theory that Jesus is not the Messiah — which He is!

   OK — I’ll stop here…

   (And the crowd yelled “thank goodness for that!”)

   But seriously Joel — may the Lord bless you with every blessing!

   Blessings and Shalom!

   Your Brother in Christ,
   Michael

2. Hey Joel, great debate. I really enjoyed hearing both views. The obvious problem that I see with Jerusalem being Mystery Babylon is when it is destroyed, the scriptures make it seem like it will be un inhabitable and a dwelling place of demons and a prison for every foul spirit. But in Zec.12-14 and also in Joel 3, Jesus
   comes and fights for Jerusalem. Just doesn’t seem to fit. I also found your take on Num.24 interesting that the LXX, Samaritan Pentateuch, and DSS say “higher than Gog” instead of Agag.
   I was a Jehovah’s Witness for 18 years, came to the Lord about 16 years ago. It’s refreshing to hear solid teaching and sound biblical doctrine. The restoration of Israel is one of the things that got me interested in biblical prophecy again after leaving the Watchtower Society. I enjoy your teaching and your ministry.

   Sincerely your brother in Christ,
   Ryan

3. Excellent debate, Joel! I am biased since I have been a follower for a long time, but you did an excellent job. What I saw from the other side doesn’t seem believable to me at all. You had me worried when you started tearing pages out of what I thought was a Bible, but I was relieved it was a Book of Mormon after all. I was thinking during that scene, “I really like Joel but he really shouldn’t be doing that.” Glad you weren’t. And you are right about Chris, inadvertently, being a theologian for the anti-semites.

   Taylor

4. Great debate Joel! Jewish Messiah, no. Jewish False Prophet, most likely, IMO, and possibly a high ranking religious Jew. He comes out of the land as opposed to the first beast which comes out of the sea (gentiles). He also does “signs”, that will deceive the non-elect people (both Jew and Gentile) into following the AC/Beast-similar to OT prophets. This will play well with the non-elect Jewish, religious and secular leadership, and also try and deceive the 144,000 into believing. So, believe the two witnesses and their message or believe the False Prophet and what he says, is how I see it.

   11Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon. 12He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed. 13He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. 14And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life. 15And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

   8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.