The Underground Episode 76: Does Revelation 19 Describe the Return of Jesus or Something Else?

  • Paul
    Posted at 15:06h, 20 August

    Hey Joel!

    Another golden episode! So appreciate you having Alan on again…I will certainly have to check out some of his writings…

    Thank you especially for answering a common criticism re: Pre-wrath, that post-trib give…namely that Jesus has lifted out His church, whilst the Jewish people suffer under the fury of AC…
    I thought your answer was helpful.
    I have read Reggie Kelly’s article entitled: “Pre-wrath v Post-trib” where he gives his views. Honestly though, I love Reggie, as you have often said he is a “deep well” and who am I to criticise a man of God like Reggie…

    In recent years, as a believer who stands with Israel (as really EVERY believer should…although that is another story) I have been challenged by teachings of yourself, Dalton and Reggie in regard to Israel’s future…
    I guess I’ve been guilty of “the doctrine of Israel’s inviolabilty” which I know is an easy trap to fall into…I am so grateful for your teachings which give realistic expectations for Israel’s future- “The coming battle for Jerusalem” being a great tool in this regard!
    Stuart Greaves put it so well when he said in Covenant and Controversy that: “we should see Israel the way God does and not to “touch” her in an inappropriate way”…ie not making an idol out of the modern State…but looking to her glorious future…

    Anyway back on topic, I am meeting up with some dear friends in September in Straford-Upon-Avon, England, and a guy will be putting forward the “Pre-Wrath” view in a day seminar…the date: 23rd Sept. No Rapture for us THAT day!!

    Seriously though Joel, praying that you get the new basement sorted for the future and that you manage to find a home for all your books from their cardboard boxes!

    Many blessings to you and your family!


  • Linda keyes
    Posted at 17:35h, 20 August

    Hi Joel
    I’m glad you haven’t got it all sorted, that makes me feel a bit better🙂
    I’m still not pre Wrath, nor traditional post.

    Some things are clear though,
    We will face the antichrist, and
    we will be caught up to heaven for at least a ‘moment’, as ISA 26 says. though I don’t believe it will be for a whole year.

    Again, I still don’t think that the tribulation is only the wrath of Satan. The vials of Rev 16 are called the plaques of God Rev 15v1
    The two whittnesses in Revelation 11 bring down these similar plagues.

    “These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will” Rev 11v6

    These plagues are clearly not satan’s wrath, but similar to those in Rev 16.( I mentioned this to Nelson, and he kindly gave me his thoughts)
    Which is why I don’t have a problem with the trumpets ect happening during the tribulation , culminating with Armageddon,and however long that takes.

    Also if Jesus is on earth in ISA 63, then wouldn’t Rev 19 be his third coming to earth.

    I realize it won’t be one big bang of an event, but sometimes God can accelerate time within time, like when we all individually appear before the throne, In our natural timing, that would take longer than the millennial riegn itself.

    There is actually one scripture that could seem to imply a quickness to the destruction of satan’s armies:

    “And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day’ ISA 10v17

    I realise “a day” can be any period of time, but here it definitely seems to be one 24hr day.

    Like yourself, I’m working through it slowly, as it isnt life and death, I’m ok with that 🙂

    Cheers Joel

  • linda keyes
    Posted at 05:23h, 21 August

    Ok, so having listened to the talk for the second time, I’m more confused🤔

    If the winepress of ISA 63 has already been pressed when he comes in Rev19, then I can’t see why it says he’s coming to tread the winepress again in v 15.

    In Ezekiel 38-39 and Rev 14 I can only see one gathering into the wine press.

    Also in Spalm 50, it does seem to imply the gathering of the saints to his actual coming with fire.

    So I think, I’ll just ponder on it for a while.

  • Joel
    Posted at 05:37h, 21 August


    Again, the destroying of his enemies occurs over a period of time. Isaiah 63 would seem to have already been past, though there is obviously yet more to accomplish after Rev. 19. Obviously His robes are not soaked in blood before He leaves heaven. To ask, “Is this his third coming?” is to miss the point that His second coming is not something that occurs in a mere instant and all is done. His second coming is complex and involves a series of events.

  • linda keyes
    Posted at 06:37h, 21 August

    I do hear what your saying Joel,

    But I just can’t see Jesus being in Jerusalem, while the antichrist still has a kingdom .

    Revelation says ac riegns for 42 months. John was given this revelation after Matthews shortening of days.

    I realize it is complex, and not straight forward at all, we’re all working through it.

    I’ve read many of Mr Walters articles and pieces,and very occasionally asked a question , that he kindly replied to, but to be honest, although pre wrath may make some good points, at this time for me, I’m not convinced.
    I do agree that realising we will face antichrist is the most important issue,

    Who knows, later on, someone may well claim to ‘perfect’ pre wrath, then another discussion will arise.

  • Alan E. Kurschner
    Posted at 16:59h, 21 August

    Hi Linda,

    Glad I can clarify this for you. You said, “But I just can’t see Jesus being in Jerusalem, while the antichrist still has a kingdom.”

    Prewrath does not believe this. During the bowl judgments, which begin to occur during the 30 day period after the completion of the 70th week of Daniel, Jesus is ruling from Jerusalem. At the end of the 70th week of Daniel the seventh trumpet is blown pronouncing that Jesus’ kingdom _replaces_ Satan and Antichrist’s kingdom. It is a thirty day transition period in which Jesus’s kingdom replaces Antichrist’s kingdom. Antichrist is not simply going to give up the ship so he (via Satan) summons the nations’ armies to Armageddon where he intends to attack Jerusalem and take back his kingdom from King Jesus. Consequently, the the bowl judgements function to target the subjects of Antichrist’s defeated kingdom—this is compounded by Jesus’ preemptive strike against Antichrist and the armies at Armageddon.

    If you want to learn more about prewrath I recommend my book _Antichrist Before the Day of the Lord_.

    I hope this helps, Linda.


  • Alan E. Kurschner
    Posted at 17:04h, 21 August
  • Tony
    Posted at 01:54h, 22 August

    You guys are right. Revelation 19 is the end of the third watch. Luke 12:35-38. It is the end of the third measure of meal being leavened. Luke 13:20-21.

  • Linda keyes
    Posted at 06:22h, 22 August

    Mr Kurschner

    Thank you for the chart. I obviously agree with your green and blue points.
    However at this time I believe the rapture happens at the end of the 42 months, not somewhere during the last 10 or so months prewrath has to hold to, due to the trumpet judgements.

    I certainly don’t have all the picture, and in not wanting to speak foolishly outside of my understanding, I’ll leave it here for now and go to God.

    Thank you.

  • Carl Hunter
    Posted at 02:31h, 23 August

    Joel I appreciate your boldness and willingness to take on popular ideas and to speak about them even in contrast to the popular opinion. Most recently regarding the Sept.signs have to have a thick hide for that..a solid spine…thank you…..I had to nudge a friend who was getting very excited about that and turn him to the actual scriptures and also to your episodes dealing directly with it…thanks again…

  • Mechelle Harrison
    Posted at 11:36h, 23 August

    Again, another great episode! I have been looking forward to a new show. Thanks so much for having Alan on to discuss this very complex passages.

    I was unaware that a new second coming date was on the calendar. If Jesus doesn’t know the day or the hour how do they know!

  • Nelson Walters
    Posted at 12:52h, 24 August

    Hi Linda,

    Glad to see you interacting here as well. I see you struggling with the timing of a longer Wrath of God. This is understandable, we all struggle with the complexity of this to an extent. Although this is a very complex issue, please consider the following verses:

    Isa. 34:8 “The Lord has a day of vengeance, a YEAR of recompense for the cause of Zion.”
    This verse seems to clearly indicate that the Wrath begins on a day of vengeance but lasts a year.

    Isa. 63:4 “For the day of vengeance was in My heart, And My YEAR of redemption has come.”
    This verse directly follows the verses Joel quotes in video where Jesus stains his robes. Again this equates the year and links it to redemption. Whose redemption? The unsaved Jewish remnant that must endure the entire Wrath of God.

    Isa. 61:2 “To proclaim the favorable YEAR of the Lord and the day of vengeance of our God”
    This is the third witness that Jesus quoted 1/2 of in Luke 4. Again linking the day of vengeance with a year. This time the favorable year. I devote an entire chapter of the ENHANCED EDITION of “Rapture: Case Closed?” to this topic using multiple other scriptures to do a case study on it. The Enhanced Edition will be out in September.

  • Troy D. Geddes
    Posted at 17:39h, 24 August

    Alan thanks for your commitment to stick with this topic and providing the Pre Wrath platform a ministry that is much needed and appreciated. I see the Pre – Wrath position and the Middle Eastern positions Joel teaches as bagels and cream cheese. You can’t have one without the other. Any way I wanted to say when I looked at your chart I noticed something that I don’t see anywhere else. Marvin Rosanthol points it out in his book. The one that converted me after only three hours of reading which was rather impressive because I was Pre-trib at the time and thought that I had purchased a Pre-trib book. It literally rocked my world the moment I read and understood how wrong Pre-Trib was. Any way sorry about that rabbit trail. What I noticed is that you put the New Heavens and New Earth DURING the 1000 year earthly reign. GOOD FOR YOU… this is correct. I just don’t see this from others. I know why this is but I commend you for going to Isaiah 65:17-66:24 FIRST as Peter instructed us to do (2 Peter 3:2) instead of moving directly to Revelation 21:1. I am in total agreement with you IF I read your chart correctly. Thank you Joel for keeping the Pre-wrath teaching along side your extremely dynamic and relevant ministry. I always love your posts and find them extremely helpful to me and my circle of friends.

    Posted at 19:07h, 24 August

    Seeing the prewrath time line reminded me that many may not have seen a post trib rapture time line, so here is mine. I would be happy for any feed back or questions.
    It may not be too fancy but hopefully it conveys a good representation of the post trib rapture view.

    I still haven’t heard satisfying responses (other than read by book when it is available) to the verses which seem to me to make the prewrath rapture untentable, (posted in the comments section of episode 75 of The Underground.)

    A. 70th Week Begins B. Seal 144,000 C. Trumpets Begin D. Great Trib Begins E. Great Trib End F. Just Before Second Coming G. . Second Coming H. Millennium Begins I. 7 yrs into Millennium J. Millennium Ends K. Eternal State Begins
    1. Antichrist makes a covenant with “the many” for 7 years Dan 9:27 2. Begin seven seals.
    B. SEALING 144,000
    144,000 sealed before trumpets begin (compare these two passages) Rev 7:3, 8:6-11.
    This event is placed (tentatively) before the Great Trib. because it is mentioned in Revelation after the discussion about the seals but before the second half of Daniel’s 70th week, the Great Tribulation is mentioned in Rev 11. Rev 8:6-12
    1. Middle of Daniel’s 70th week. Dan 9:27. 2. Restrainer steps aside 2 Thes 2:6-7 3. Antichrist puts a stop to sacrifices and grain offerings. Dan 9:27 4. Antichrist given authority to overcome saints; they can’t buy or sell without the mark of the beast. Rev 13:5-10, 16-17 5. Abomination of Desolation set up Dan 9:27, Matt 24:15, 2T hes 2:4 6. Two witnesses given authority for 1260 days (possibly Moses and Elijah). Mal 4:5, Matt 17:11, Rev 11:3 (John the Baptist was not this Elijah because when Jesus made His statement in Matt 17:11, John had already been killed.) 7. Nations start to trample on the holy city (Jerusalem) for 42 months (when the Antichrist sets up the Abomination of Desolation). Rev 11:3 8. Jews and believers in Israel nourished in the wilderness 1260 days Matt 24:15-23, Rev 12:6-14
    1. Two witnesses killed but resurrected in 3 1/2 days Rev 11:7-11 2. End of authority of the Antichrist. Rev 13:5-10
    1. Immediately after the tribulation: a. the sun is darkened (or black) b. the moon turns to blood c. stars fall from the sky (wonders in the sky) d. great earthquake occurs (every mountain and island is moved) Joel 2:30-32, 3:9-21, Matt 24:29-30, Mark 13:27, Rev 6:12-17 2. Sixth trumpet (men did not repent, no more delay, 1/3 of mankind killed, 200 million horsemen) Rev 9:13-21, 10:6 3. Sixth bowl of wrath, prepare for Armageddon Rev 16:12-14, 19:19 3. John eats bittersweet book, just before the seventh trumpet. Compare the sweet effect of the rapture/second coming on Christians (giving relief to you who are afflicted) with the bitter consequences of the second coming on unbelievers (dealing out retribution to those who do not know God etc.). Placed here because it follows the announcement that the 7th trumpet is about to sound. 2Thes 1:7-10, Rev 10:7-10 4. 6th seal Rev 6:12-17 5. The time of God’s wrath has come Isa 2:12-21, Rev 6:12-17 6. Bowls of wrath begin (placed here tentatively because: a. wrath is said to have arrived at the sixth seal which is after Daniel’s 70th week. Rev 6:16-17 b. Rev 11:18 implies that God’s wrath had recently arrived in the days of the seventh trumpet. Rev 11:18 c. The first bowl leaves the impression that the mark of the beast has been available long enough for people to accept or reject it. Rev 16:2 d. The third bowl is an answer to the question raised in the fifth seal. (Note the parallel concepts in the 5th seal and the 3rd bowl: (1) martyrs, (2) the alter, (3) judgment, (4) blood, (5) God as the Lord, (6) holy and (7) true, and (8) the wicked as deserving of vengeance.) Rev 6:9-10, 16.4-7 7. Last chance to repent is coming up 2Pet 3:9-10, Rev 16:8-11
    1. Begin the day of the Lord (which extends through to the eternal state) Isa 2:12-21, 13:9-16, Joel 2:30-32, 3:9-21 :Zeph 1:14-18, 2 Pet 3:10-12 2. Second coming (including rapture): believers meet Christ in the air and join His triumphant and victorious descent to earth, first reaping of 1Thes 4:17, Rev 14:14-16 includes: a. Christ coming b. in the clouds c. gathering elect from heaven and earth d. angelic participation e. a trumpet sound Zeph 1:16, Matt 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27, Acts 1:9-11, 1Cor 15:52, 1 Thes 4:16-17, 2 Thes 2:1, Rev 11:15-18, 14:14-16 3. Dead believers of all time resurrected (first resurrection) Dan 12:1-2, Rev 20:5 4. Death is swallowed up in victory Isa 25:8, 1 Cor 15:54 5. The mystery of God is finished Rev 10:7 6. The saints are rewarded Rev 11:18 7. Christ begins to reign on earth Ps 2:1-8, Rev 11:18 8. The Lamb stands on Mount Zion (in Jerusalem) with the 144,000 Ps 2:6, Rev 14:1 9. Christ comes like a thief Matt 24:43-44, 1 Thes 5:2-4, 2 Pet 3:10, Rev 16:15 10. The second reaping of Rev. 14 Rev 14:17-20 11. Seventh seal Rev 8:1-5 12. Seventh trumpet #1Cor 15.52, Rev 10.7, 11:15-19 13. Seventh bowl Rev 16:17-21 14. thuner, an earthquake, a great hailstorm #Rev 8:1-5, 11:19, 16:18-21 15. Armageddon Joel 2:10-14, Zeph 3:8, 2 Thes 2:8,11, 2 Pet 3:10, Rev 16:16-21, 17:11-21, 19:11-21 16. Babylon is fallen Rev 14:8, 18:2 17. End of the Abomination of Desolation Dan 9:27, 12:11, Zeph 1:8-9 18. All Israel turns to God Joel 2:32, Zech 3:8-9, 12.3 Zech 12:9-14 Zech 13:1-9, Mal 3:1-6, Rom 11:26-27 (144,000 may be the first fruits of this harvest of Jewish souls) Rev 14:4 19. Marriage supper of the Lamb Luke 22:18, Rev 19:7, 21:9-14 20. Day of Atonement Zech 12:10-11
    1. Begin millennium (apparently 1335 days after the middle of Daniel’s 70th week) Dan 12;12 2. Satan bound for 1000 years Rev 20:1-3 3. Antichrist and False Prophet cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:11-15.
    Seven years into the millennium weapons of Ezekiel finish burning Ezek 39:9
    1. Satan released 2. Battle with Gog and Magog 3. Devil thrown into the lake of fire 4. Great White Throne judgment 5. Judgment of unrighteous dead Rev 2:.7-15 6. Judgment of the nations. (Placed here because the evil men are thrown into the eternal fire. Matt 25:31-46, Rev 20:7-14
    New heaven, new earth. Rev 21

  • Brandon Emch
    Posted at 19:11h, 24 August

    Do those Scriptures really link or equate the day of the Lord as lasting one year? Or, is the text simply stating that the year has come for His appointed day. Much like our wedding day or any date of significance in history. We remember the “year of” but we also drill down and remember the specific date of significance too. Now, I’m not saying that the year leading up to the day of the Lord will be insignificant. It will certainly be dramatic and enormously significant, and the Lord will be doing much intervening so that His plans will be fulfilled specifically according to His word. But unless there is a larger body of Scriptural evidence to support this interpretation, it seems unconvincing to me personally..

    Today I uploaded a file to my website that you may be interested in. I urge you to study and consider it. It speaks to this very topic of the resurrection/rapture and the nature of its timing, etc. I’m not sure if I can figure out how to post a link on here, but I’ll give it a shot.

    Thanks – Brandon

  • Linda Keyes
    Posted at 05:29h, 25 August

    Thank you Nelson.

    To be fair, I actually wasn’t going to comment again, I think I’ll take a long break from the pre wrath/post trib. discussion. I acknowledge that yourself and Alan make some challenging points, which I will consider.

    To be honest I had similar thoughts as Brandon concerning the year of his vengeance, I’m not sure it actually implies a whole year, but if that is the case, I’m willing for God to show me.

    As I said previously, I do believe we enter our closets for a “moment” (Isa26)

    I fully acknowledge that the nation’s will be judged, as in ISA 19 ect,… its just that at this time, I see the actual treading of the winepress as specific to Armageddon, which Happens when Jesus comes as recorded in Rev 19.

    I have appreciated everyone’s thoughts, but I’m not a teacher, just an ordinary Christian.
    When the Lord first opened my eyes to the church facing the ac, I was simply reading scripture , And Gods Spirit opened my eyes literally, everything started to fall into place: The heavens opening, the Jews seeing Jesus in heaven and lamenting, everything suddenly made sense. Of course I’ve been greatful for the various inputs since.

    As with many ordinary saints, it can be very overwhelming, with so many opinions on the issue.
    Not saying I won’t get your book, but I’m going to wait on God, I believe he is able to show even folk like me, truth in time.

    Thank you to all who have commented, sorry to have taken up talk time Joel..

  • Linda Keyes
    Posted at 05:46h, 25 August

    When I said God can show truth to even folk like me, it wasn’t with false humility (pride). But with a worn out brain, knowing God’s grace.🙂

  • Marty Runik
    Posted at 07:47h, 25 August

    Is there any chance Alan and Reggie could be persuaded to do an extended debate on the pre-wrath subject? It would certainly be a most enlightening and civil debate!

  • Joel
    Posted at 11:15h, 25 August

    I think there are others whose area of expertise is more focused on the Post-trib rapture that would be better suited to debate this. Reggie is amazing, but I don’t think he is really the debating time.

  • David Williams
    Posted at 03:59h, 26 August

    Personally I found this video very difficult to digest and confusing.
    Rev 6:10 and Rev 6:11 clearly states that God will not Judge or avenge the Blood of the Servants until every Saint that is to be Killed is Killed.
    And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
    Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
    It is in Revelations 19:2 that we see that the avenging and Judging is about to take place and there is a great rejoicing.
    Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
    I dont think that it is a coincidence that if no more are to be killed then that is when the Wife will finally be ready.
    John was told about the Wife being ready and was told that the Marriage was about to take place and that those that are invited are Blessed
    John did not see it happen, he was told that it was about to happen.
    Rev 19:7 clearly tells us that the Wife has made herself ready which means she has never been ready before, so the Resurrection has not taken place prior to this
    The Resurrection can only take place once the Wife is ready.
    Rev 19:7 clearly tells us that the Marriage is soon to take place which means it has not yet taken place prior to this point
    Rev 19:8 clearly states that she is given the Authority to be dressed in the Righteousness of the saints which means it has never taken place before.
    Rev 19:9 clearly tells us that those that are invited are Blessed which means it has not taken place yet.
    In 2 Thessalonians 2 Paul clearly tells us that we will not be gathered together to Jesus Christ until the Apostasy takes place and the Revealing of the Son of Perdition takes place and Paul states clearly that when Jesus comes (Parousia) He destroys the Son of Perdition with the Brightness of His Coming.
    When Jesus comes He appears a Second Time.
    Paul does not say that Jesus comes and gathers us and then comes back again to destroy the Son of Perdition with another Coming.
    What Paul states in 2 Thessalonians 2 is in complete Harmony with what God declares in Revelations 19:20
    One Literal coming to gather us and destroy the son of perdition.
    Rev 19:20 who had done the miracles in his presence with which he had led astray those who had received the mark of the Wild Beast, and those who worshipped his statue. Both of them were thrown alive into the Lake of fire that was all ablaze with sulphur.
    Rev 19:15 Is extremely clear that Jesus is coming to smite the Nations which means he has not done this before, It also clearly states that Jesus Shall rule the Nations with a Rod of Iron and that He Treads the Winepress of the Wrath of God which means Jesus has not yet trampled the Winepress of God.
    Revelations 19:20 clearly shows that the Trampling of the Winepress takes place at this time, not before.
    Rev 20 clearly states that the Binding of Satan for 1000 Years is also the same period of 1000 Years that the Saints Rule with Jesus and it clearly states that this is the time when the First Resurrection takes place and that those who are in that First Resurrection will Rule and Reign with Jesus for 1000 Years.
    The timing of the First Resurrection taking place when the Beast etc is destroyed in Revelations 19 and 20 is in Harmony with 2 Thessalonians 2.
    I think John in Revelations 20 speaking of it being the First Resurrection is rather simple, that is when the First Resurrection takes place.
    Jesus states very clearly in John that He will raise us up at the Last day, not some days before the Last Day
    Jesus also states in the Gospels that the Resurrection takes place at the End of this Age and the New Age will then begin.
    Act 3:21 clearly states that Jesus must remain in Heaven until the Restoration of all things as spoken of by the Prophets.
    Paul states in 2 Thess 2 that Jesus destroys the Son of Perdition at his coming on the Day of Christ.
    Revelations 16:15 paints the same picture as Revelations 19 and 20
    Rev 16:15 clearly shows that Jesus is still to come around the time when the Beast and the Armies are about to be gathered at Armageddon.
    Why would Jesus speak so clearly about His coming with His own words in this exact place unless it was about to still happen at that time, He said it for us to remember and take heed
    Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
    Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
    Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
    If Gods word is true then there will be a day that will arrive when the Believers in Jesus Christ will be on earth when the Beast and His Armies are about to gather at Armageddon, they will read Rev 16:15 and know that Jesus is about to come and they should watch and keep their Garments.
    That is why Jesus put that verse of Hope in that place.
    Jesus makes it very clear that His coming will coincide with the gathering at Armageddon.
    The Orge of Jesus Christ takes place at His Coming as clearly described in Revelations
    Revelations 14:10 clearly shows that the Wrath of God takes place in the presence of the Holy Angels and the Lamb
    Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
    As Believers we are waiting for that Day when Jesus comes and we are found without spot and he judges the earth at that same coming.
    2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
    2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
    2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
    On the Day that Jesus Christ comes He will destroy the Beast and the Kings assembled at Armageddon, Jesus will bind Satan for 1000 Years, the First Resurrection will take place and we will Reign for 1000 Years while Satan is bound for 1000 Years.
    Jesus will begin to Smite the Nations and Rule them with a Rod of Iron.
    I believe we have much to discuss on this matter

  • David Williams
    Posted at 06:08h, 26 August

    Hello Joel,
    From what I have seen and heard the Coming of Jesus Christ will not take place until after the events are seen in the sun, moon and stars which Jesus clearly states is after the Tribulation Period is completed. Matthew 24:29
    It is quite clear that the Tribulation period must be completed first, then the events are seen in the sky immediately after ,and that is when Jesus says for us to look up as he is at the door and ready to come as we are the Generation that will see all these things.
    These same events of the Sun, Moon and Stars are clearly seen in Revelations Chapter 6:12-13 and are seen after the 6th Seal is opened,
    For these events to be seen it Must mean that the Tribulation Period is completed as Jesus stated clearly that those events are seen after the Tribulation Period is over.
    We also know that the Tribulation Period is set at 3 1/2 Years only.
    We also know that the Beast only has authority for the exact same 3 1/2 Years only.
    If the Tribulation Period is Completed and the Beast no longer has authority and Jesus is going to then come surely the Beast must be destroyed at the Coming of Jesus Christ just as Paul described in 2 Thessalonians 2
    I looked at Alan Kurschner Chart and he has placed the Resurrection as being between the 6th and 7th Seal which I have no problem with but he has then placed that event during the Tribulation when Jesus has clearly stated that the events seen in the Sun, Moon and Stars are seen immediately after the Tribulation is completed not during.
    Can anyone respond to this difference in timing as it appears to be in conflict with what Jesus said?

  • Perry Brown
    Posted at 06:44h, 28 August

    I struggle to understand some of the claims of the pre-wrath rapture position, however I myself believe in a mixture of the post-trib and pre-wrath rapture positions. I would like to ask a question to Alan and Nelson to understand better the pre-wrath position. But before so, I should state briefly what is my understanding of the rapture: the church is raptured and dead in Christ are resurrected in to the clouds at the second coming of Jesus at the end of the 70th week of Daniel, i.e. at the end of the second 3 ½ period (1,260 days, 42 months, a time, times and half a time) and at the 7th trumpet blast. Therefore, the church will be on earth during the seal and trumpet judgments.

    I also believe the second coming of Jesus is a complex process with many events happing: Jesus in the sky (in the clouds) all over the world to rapture the church, then Jesus on the ground releasing Jews in prison camps (Isaiah 42, 49), marching through the surrounding nations slaughtering His enemies (Isaiah 63, Habakkuk 3, Psalm 68) in direction to Jerusalem, where we will defeat the Antichrist and his armies (Revelation 19, Ezekiel 38,39) and received by the inhabitants of Jerusalem as their King and Messiah. As Jesus is on the ground, He will be releasing the bowl judgments on the Antichrist, his kingdom and followers. I believe this will all happen within 30 days (1,290 days – 1,260 days).

    Now to my question to Alan and Nelson. One of the claims of the pre-wrath rapture position is that the church will not be on earth during the trumpet judgments because they will be raptured between the 6th and 7th seal judgments. How then to explain Revelation 9:4, where the demonic locust was given the instruction to only harm those people who do not have seal of God on their foreheads? To claim the church (believers in Jesus Christ) to be raptured before the trumpet judgments, i.e. the 5th trumpet, as the pre-wrath position does, the explanation for those people with the seal of God on their foreheads in Revelation 9:4, would rely exclusively upon the 144,000 Jews in Revelation 7 and 14. How then, according to the pre-wrath position, would these 144,000 Jews not be raptured together with all the other Jesus believing church between the 6th and 7th seal judgments? Aren’t these 144,000 Jews servants of God (Rev 7:3), followers of Jesus (Rev 14:4), purchased (by the blood of Jesus) among mankind (Rev 14:4 and Rev 5:9), and redeem from the earth (Rev 14:3)? Wouldn’t they be raptured as well?

    I have a hard time to understand the pre-wrath position regarding this point. Could you help me understand better the pre-wrath rapture position regarding the issue of Revelation 9:4 (those with the seal of God on their foreheads)?


    Perry Brown

  • Howard Bass
    Posted at 06:47h, 28 August

    To Troy and to Alan,

    The New Heavens and New Earth of Isaiah are not, imho, quite the same as those following the Millennial Kingdom. During the Millennium, there is still death, sin, and rebellion at the end. It is a regenerated creation, just as born-again believers are regenerated and a new creation even now. Yet we wait with longing and groaning for the ultimate redemption of our bodies in the resurrection, when we receive our new and eternal bodies. We can still sin, suffer, and die now, even though we are already new, and already have eternal life through knowing the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    This whole discussion thread has been very stimulating. Thanks, Joel, and the rest, and in a special way to Linda.

  • Alan E. Kurschner
    Posted at 18:58h, 28 August

    Hi Perry,

    I am happy to answer your question. You said that you struggle with the claims of prewrath. But your questions do not show any indication that you have read primary literature on prewrath. I would recommend my book _Antichrist Before the Day of the Lord._ For example, in that book I explain that the 144,000 Jews are not believers at the time of the rapture. They are servants of God who will become firstfruits at the end of the 70th week of Daniel when they recognize their messiah. I just point you to my discussion on this point in my book, as well as a robust explanation of prewrath. After that, I think we can have a more fruitful discussion. I have a principle with interacting with post-tribs. Before we can have a meaningful discussion where both sides understand each other I ask them to read my book first. It has helped, so we do not talk past each other. I hope you understand.


  • Alan E. Kurschner
    Posted at 19:04h, 28 August


    Thanks for your question. The question of the timing of the new earth and new heavens is a topic I am continuing to explore, so I am not dogmatic on it. One particular piece of evidence that seems to place them at the beginning of the millennium is Isa 65, which shows a strong cause and effect connection between the new earth/heavens and the subsequent millennium. But again, this is a topic I am working through, so at this point I am tentative in my conclusions.


  • Alan E. Kurschner
    Posted at 19:16h, 28 August

    Hi Perry,

    I’d like to point you to a brief article I wrote on the issue of the great trib being 3 1/2 years in duration. I appreciate that you want to learn more on prewrath, so I hope you will consider these points.


  • Howard
    Posted at 04:53h, 29 August

    Alan, thanks for commenting back. I’m really glad that you have taken an active interest in comments to Joel’s blog connected with the interview that you did. So many don’t.

    I am agreeing with you that Is 65 describes the New Heavens and New Earth as beginning with the reign of Jesus during the Millennial, a kingdom that will never pass away. I am only saying that it is not, imho, the full-fillment of the perfect to come (as Paul writes) will not be until after the final judgment, just as our present born-again state is not yet perfect, even though we are already a new creation. In the eternal new creation, there is no sin, broken relationships, death, etc. Love is perfected in all the redeemed, so that Jesus Himself can even return all authority back to the Father.

    Anyway, whatever God has planned for those who love Him is what we want and where we are going.


  • Alan E. Kurschner
    Posted at 09:36h, 29 August

    Hi Howard,

    Thanks for that clarification. I actually tend to agree with you on this, that we should not think of the new heavens and new earth is something that happens instantaneous. But it would be a process through the millennial age. Again, I am working through this topic over time so not dogmatic on it, at this point at least.


  • Howard
    Posted at 10:32h, 29 August

    Another Scripture that I think supports the notion that the saints will accompany Jesus when He acts to avenge them is Jude 14-16:
    14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him. 16 These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. ”

    For some reason these are not usually referred to. They remind me that the Lord tells us that vengeance is His; that we just need long-suffering and patience until the time is ready, and then He will let us ‘fight back’ against those we really feel like punching out! 🙂 But, with Him, it will be done in righteousness and in the right Spirit. Some of the ones we feel like whacking now may wind up becoming some of our brothers and sisters.

  • Perry Brown
    Posted at 16:11h, 29 August

    Hi Alan,

    Thanks for your response. In the matter of fact, I have fully read your book (Antichrist Before The Day Of The Lord) about three years ago, when I purchased it through Amazon. Glancing through your book, I see you touch the topic of the 144,000 in Part 2 The Rapture of God’s People under the topic The Jewish Remnant Protected, pages 94-96; mention in Part 3 The Day Of The Lord’s Wrath under the topic First Trumpet (First Woe), page 147; and reference to in note 29, page 221.

    1) If I understood correctly, the pre-wrath rapture position believes the 144,000 Jews were not believers in Jesus as their Messiah during their life up until the Day of the Lord (at the end of the 70th week as you mentioned), when they will recognized Him as their Messiah and become followers of Jesus. Well, at least this should have to happen at least 5 months previously to the end of the 70th week, since the seal of God on their foreheads received will protect them, at least, from the demonic locust judgment, unless you see the sealing event (Rev 7) of the 144,000 Jews separated from their acknowledgment of Jesus as their the Messiah (Rev 14). Is that the case, under pre-wrath thought, so that the 144,000 Jews will be sealed on their foreheads, not even being yet believers in Jesus, some time before the end of the 70th week (at least 5 months), and then only at the end of the 70th week become believers in Jesus?

    2) Is there any indication in Revelation 7 and 14 that the 144,000 Jews will only recognize their Messiah at the end of the 70th week? Is it the encounter with the Lamb (Jesus) on mount Zion in Rev 14:1? Or putting it in other words, is there any indicator that assures the 144,000 Jews do not believe in Jesus previously to the sealing on their foreheads?

    3) According to the pre-wrath rapture position, the 144,000 Jews will recognize Jesus at the end of the 70 week, what then will be the distinctive traits from all other surviving Jews that will repent, be saved and recognize Jesus as the Messiah (Zachariah 12:10-14; Romans 11:25-27)? In other words, what will be the uniqueness of the 144,000 Jews as comparison to the rest of the repenting Jews? What is the difference then?

    4) How does the pre-wrath position see the moral condition of the 144,000 Jews as not defiled with sexual immorality (Rev 14:4), no lie has found in their mouth (Rev 14:5) and are blameless (Rev 14:5)? Would this moral condition be present for most of their lives or only as consequence of recognizing Jesus as Messiah? If they present this kind of moral standard of living for most of their lives, even before believing in Jesus and receiving the Holy Spirit, how then could they attain such high standard? Through observance of the Law, moral consciousness, God’s grace, even though not received the Holy Spirit?

    5) How does the pre-wrath position understand the purpose of the “learning” by the 144,000 Jews of the new song sang before the Throne of God (Rev 14:2-3)? This hearing and learning prophetic singing from Heaven is unto what, considering the pre-wrath position of recognizing Jesus only at the end of the 70th week? I guess the pre-wrath position definitely does not see any connection between this “learning” of the songs from Heaven of the 144,000 Jews with the prayer and worship movement of the church that will crescendo during the 7 year period.

    I will address the issue of the great tribulation being 3 ½ years in another post.


    Perry Brown

    Posted at 11:01h, 30 August

    Hi Perry.

    I have done a study on the 144,000 and though I am post trib, as you can see by the time line I have posted above and by 11 questions I have asked in the comments section of episode 75 of the underground, I do agree with Alan on the 144,000. The idea that they are not saved until the just after the rapture first was introduced by the founder of modern post trib, Robert Gundry in his book “The Church and the Tribulation” aprox 1973, As the following comparison of Old Testament passages with Rev. 14 imho will show, what the Old Testament calls the “remnant of Israel” is at least in part what Rev. 7 and 14 calls the 144,000. And the remnant of Israel doesn’t get saved until after the lord returns, Zech. 3:9-10, Zech. 12:9-12, Rom. 11:26-27, Mal. 3:1-5,

    Comparisons: 1. Comparing Rev. 14:1-5 with Zeph. 3:9-13
    Rev. 14:1-5 1 Then I looked, and behold, (1)the Lamb was standing on (2) Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
    …no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb…. 5 And (3) no lie was (4) found in their mouth; (5) they are blameless.
    Zephaniah 3:9-13
    9 “For then I will give to the peoples (3)purified lips, That (1) all of them may call on the name of the LORD, For then I will remove from your midst your proud, exulting ones, And (1) you will never again be haughty (2) On My holy mountain.
    13 “The remnant of Israel will (5) do no wrong. And (3) tell no lies, Nor will a deceitful tongue Be (4)found in their mouths; For they will feed and lie down With (1) no one to make them tremble.”

    1 =millennial setting, 2=Mount Zion
    3=pure lips, no lie 4 found in their mouth 5=blameless, do no wrong.

    2. Comparing Rev. 14:1-5 with Jer. 31:6-13

    1 Then I looked, and behold (1) the Lamb was standing on (2) Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
    …no one could learn (3)the song except the one hundred and forty-four. These (4) have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. These are the ones who (5)have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste.  These are they that (6) follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. 5 And no lie was found in their mouth; (7) they are blameless.

    Jer. 31:6-13 6 For (1)there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us(2) go up to Zion unto the LORD our God.
    7 For thus saith the LORD; (3)Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel…
    9 They shall come with weeping, and (6) with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to (6) walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein (7) they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
    11 For (4)the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.
    12 Therefore they shall come and (3)sing in the height of (2) Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and (1)they shall not sorrow any more at all.
    13 Then shall (5)the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow.

    1=millennial setting, 2=Mount Zion,
    3=sing or the song, 4=purchased or redeemed, 5=referred to as virgins, 6=follow the lamb, I will lead them, walk in a straight way, 7=blameless or shall not stumble,

    3. Compare Zeph. 3 with Jer. 31:6-13.
    9 “For (1)then 4I will give to the peoples purified lips, That all of them may call on the name of the LORD, For (4)then I will remove from your midst Your proud, exulting ones, And you will (1,5)never again be haughty (2)On My holy mountain.
    13 (2) “The remnant of Israel (5) will do no wrong. And (5)tell no lies, Nor will a deceitful tongue Be found in their mouths; For they will feed and lie down With (1, 3) no one to make them tremble.” 20 “At that time (4) I will bring you in,Even at the time when I gather you together;Indeed, (4) I will give you renown and praiseAmong all the peoples of the earth,When (4) I restore your fortunes before your eyes,”Says the Lord.

    6 For(1) there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God.
    7 For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, (2) the remnant of Israel.
    8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
    9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: (4)I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein (5) they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
    10 ¶ Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
    11 For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.
    12 Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall (3)not sorrow any more at all.
    13 Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for (4) I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow.

    (1)Time in context-just after the second coming (2) the remnant of Israel (3) won’t tremble, or sorrow (4) God will cause the action (5) they won’t: do wrong, be haughty tell lies, stumble,
    4. Comparing Rev. 14:1-5 with Isa. 35:8-10, 37:32
    1 Then I looked, and behold (1) the Lamb was standing on (2) Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
    …no one could learn (3, 6)the song except the one hundred and forty-four. These (4) have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. These are they that (5) follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. 5 And no lie was found in their mouth; (5) they are blameless.

    Isa. 35:8- 10 A highway will be there, (5) a roadway, And it will be called the Highway of Holiness. The unclean will not travel on it, But it will be for him who walks that way, And fools will not wander on it. 9 But (4)the redeemed (5) will walk there, 10 And (4)the ransomed of the Lord will return And come (3) with joyful shouting to (2) Zion, With (1) everlasting joy upon their heads. They will find gladness and joy, And (6) sorrow and sighing will flee away.

    Isa.37:32 For out of Jerusalem will go forth a remnant and out of Mount Zion survivors. The zeal of (4) the Lord Almighty will accomplish this.

    As we saw in Zeph. 3 and Jer. 31, (point 4 in the previous slide) the Lord causes the action.

    1=millennial setting, 2=Mount Zion,
    3=sing or the song, 4=purchased or redeemed, 5. a righteous walk (6) sorrow turned into joyful singing.

    Then compare Zephaniah with Jeremiah and with other remnant passages (Zech. 3:9, Zech. 12:1-12, Joel 2:31-32, Rom. 11:26-27, Micah 4:7) and the evidence just keep piling up that the remnant of Israel is the same as the 144,000.
    Satan seems to have an affinity for attacking Jews first and hardest. (Rev. 12) This may the reason they are sealed, initially as unbelievers, for protection from Satan’s wrath and God’s wrath.
    Also, the 12 tribes listed may be a fulfillment of the promise that ALL ISRAEL will be saved, Rom. 11:26 as all Israel may refer to the entire nation, represented in the 12 tribes- not just a few tribes.

    5. Comparing Rev. 14:1-5 with Rom. 11:26-27

    1 Then I looked, and behold 1the Lamb was standing on 2Mount Zion, and with Him 6one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
    …no one could learn the song except 6the one hundred and forty-four. These 3,4have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. These are they that 5follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. And no lie was found in their mouth; 5they are blameless.

    Rom.11: 26 and so 6all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
    “1The 4Deliverer will come 2from Zion,3He 5will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”27 “This is My covenant with them When 3, 4I take away 5their sins.”

    1. millennial setting, 2. Mount Zion,
    3. God causes the action, see Zeph. 3 with Jer. 31:6-13. 4. purchased, delivered, 5. a righteous walk 6. representative of all Israel.

    In Ez. 9:1-11 an angel (man in linen) puts a mark on the forehead of those in Jerusalem who will be rescued from the wrath of God. The writer is concerned the remnant will be destroyed, but God has the angel (man in linen) marked them so that they all will not be destroyed.
    9 Then He cried out in my hearing with a loud voice saying, “Draw near, O executioners of the city, each with his destroying weapon in his hand.” 2 Behold, six men came from the direction of the upper gate which faces north, each with his shattering weapon in his hand; and among them was a certain man clothed in linen with a writing case at his loins. And they went in and stood beside the bronze altar.
    3 Then the glory of the God of Israel went up from the cherub on which it had been, to the threshold of the temple. And He called to the man clothed in linen at whose loins was the writing case. 4 The Lord said to him, “Go through the midst of the city, even through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations which are being committed in its midst.” 5 But to the others He said in my hearing, “Go through the city after him and strike; do not let your eye have pity and do not spare. 6 Utterly slay old men, young men, maidens, little children, and women, but do not touch any man on whom is the mark; and you shall start from My sanctuary.” So they started with the elders who were before the temple. 7 And He said to them, “Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go out!” Thus they went out and struck down the people in the city. 8 As they were striking the people and I alone was left, I fell on my face and cried out saying, “Alas, Lord God! Are You destroying the whole remnant of Israel by pouring out Your wrath on Jerusalem?”

    Regarding the objection that the 144,000 are said to be servants of God, (thinking this implies that they are already believers when they are sealed) Rev. 7:3, hear are some examples of people being chosen to serve God before they are believers. Jer. 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I concecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.
    Luke 1:15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb.
    Isa. 42:19-24, Eph. 1:4, II Tim. 1: 9 we were chosen before the world began, I Peter 1:20 Before the foundation of the world. Titus 1:1-2 …God’s elect…which God … promised before the world began.
    Isa. 42:19 Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD’S servant?
    20 Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.
    21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
    22 But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore.
    23 Who among you will give ear to this? who will hearken and hear for the time to come?
    24 Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law.

    I appears that the 144,000 are not believers at the time they are sealed, but become believers as the Lord returns? Zech. 3:9-10, Zech. 12:9-12, Rom. 11:26-27, Mal. 3:1-5, It appear that many Jews will become believers after the rapture as they see the Lord descending to earth.

    You said you are between prewrath and post trib. But the 6th bowl coming like a thief as explained by prewrath has serious flaws being in the middle of the description of the 6th bowl, not a parenthesis after the 6 th bowl has been finished. See the posts I referred to above.

    I hope this helps Perry.

    To Allan, In your response to Perry you referred him to your web page. There you commented that the Lords coming would be on the last day of Daniels 70th week so we would know the day and hour. You gave 3 descriptions of how post trib “tries to answer this problem, but I believe a 4th explanation imho best answers it this way. That Jesus does not return on the last day of the 70th week of Daniel (as we know after the 70th week the 2 witnesses lie in the street for 3 1/2 days-getting into the extra 75 days of Dan.12. He returns sometime during that 75 days so we do not know the day or hour but we do know the season. (Matt. 24:32-36).

  • David Williams
    Posted at 19:03h, 30 August

    Hello Joel,
    One of the biggest things that the Church learnt was that we do not grasp hold of the Truth in the Bible when we are simply looking at it in our English Language alone. It is when we look at the Greek and the Hebrew that it all comes alive and in more Truth.
    A good example of this is with the English word “Love” we just simply thought all of the words “Love” were the same in the Bible. BUT when we looked at the Greek and the Hebrew the Church received a revelation “The Agape Love “of God.
    Suddenly the Scriptures had a different light, Love was not just Love, there was an Agape Love of God that existed.
    I believe we need to do the exact same with the Wrath word in the English, we must go back to the original Greek words that were spoken and not just simply throw all of the Greek words used into one basket and call them all Wrath.
    Paul did not use the English word Wrath when he spoke. No!
    Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 that we as Believers are not appointed to ORGE but to Obtain Salvation by Jesus Christ.
    It is very clear, at the coming of Jesus Christ one will either Obtain Salvation or receive the ORGE appointed.
    They happen at the same event.
    Paul specifically used the ORGE word for a reason.
    I believe the Church would do well to call the Doctrine a Post Tribulation Pre ORGE coming of Jesus Christ and then seriously look at the use of the ORGE word in the Book of Revelations and once again see clearly that the ORGE clearly takes place at the Parousia of Jesus Christ which Jesus clearly described as taking place after the Tribulation period is completed and not before.
    Revelations was given to the Church as One Prophecy so as to reveal all that must take place before He comes and after He comes.
    The Church will be on earth until the Tribulation is completed, until the Day of Resurrection at the End of the Age, until the Last Day, until the Apostasy takes place and the Son of Perdition fulfils every Prophecy regarding him and until Jesus comes and destroys him at His Parousia.
    I believe we must get back to the Truth that Paul said we are not appointed to ORGE not just a simple wrath word.
    We must look at where the Specific Orge word is used in Revelations not just throw them all into one basket and call them all wrath.
    Orge is Orge.
    We must look at the verses in Revelations and see where the Orge word is used.
    Revelations 19 Clearly reveals that Jesus is about to Trample the Wine Press of Orge.
    Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    I believe we must be Biblical in our approach and we must look at all the ORGE verses in Revelations.
    Revelations 6:16, 6:17, 11:18, 14:10, 16:19, 19:15 speak of that same day of ORGE.
    Revelations 6:17 clearly states that the Day of ORGE has come.
    Revelations 11:18 clearly states that the ORGE has come.
    Revelations 14:10 clearly states that the Angels and Jesus are present at the time of ORGE.
    Revelations 16:19 again clearly shows Gods ORGE and it takes place after Jesus has talked about His coming in verse 15.
    Revelations 19:15 clearly states that Jesus is the one that Tramples the Wine Press of ORGE.
    We cannot simply say that each ORGE in these verses are separate events otherwise we would have to say that Jesus is coming 5 different times.
    We would do well to heed these Scriptures and see that they all speak of the same ORGE when Jesus Comes.
    Revelations 19 is clearly talking about the Parousia of Jesus and the ORGE of Jesus.
    When you look at the use of the word ORGE in Revelations 19 it Clearly reveals that Jesus destroys the Beast and False Prophet at that very same coming. Revelations 20 Clearly reveals that Satan is bound at that very same Coming. The First Resurrection also takes place at that very same coming.
    The 1000 Year Binding of Satan coincides with the Timing of the First Resurrection as those that come alive Rule and Reign with Jesus for 1000 Years.
    Please consider.
    God has not appointed us to ORGE but TO OBTAIN SALVATION by our Lord Jesus Christ at His Parousia.
    I have provided a link for a Deeper Study that I have done on this matter for those interested it will be updated shortly with an Audio in MP3 as well.

    Thanking You.

  • Nelson Walters
    Posted at 09:02h, 31 August

    Brandon Emch, Thanks for your question and the link. It is a very nice web presentation.

    First, your question was can Isa. 34:8, Isa. 63:4 and Isa. 61:2 not indicate that the time of wrath, redemption, and the favorable are a year, but rather indicate they are the “year’ those things happen. Linguistically that doesn’t make sense, and if you think about it, I’m sure you’ll see that as well. All three of these scriptural witnesses present parallel facts in typical Hebraic fashion. “a day of vengeance, a year of recompense.” It is both a day (when this starts, the Day of the Lord when the rapture and initiation of the wrath happen on the same day.) and it continues for a year. The 70th “Week” of Daniel is a Hebraic Shabua, not just any 7 year period. The seventh year, Shmitah year, or YEAR OF THE LORD is set aside as different. Check out this video link that will be presented at a conference in Arkansas next month

    The linked website you sent me is interesting. When the writer quotes Isa. 34:8, he intentionally only quotes Isa. 34:8a and leaves off the “year of recompense for the cause of Zion” part. Why did he leave this off? Obviously because it causes problems with his theory. These passages, however, fit perfectly with the 70th Shabua of Daniel as presented in the video.

    Is this all the evidence for this timing? No its not. There is a lot more and its found in chapter ten of the ENHANCED EDITION of “Rapture: Case Closed?” which should be available on Amazon this weekend! This is the final chapter because its the culmination of an entire book of material. If you pick up a copy, please start at the beginning. It is important to work thru all the proofs of all the theories to get to something like this topic. Which btw, I present only as a case study, not rock solid – but I think you will find it very, very interesting.

    Blessings as we all explore this issue as a church. Nelson

  • Brandon Emch
    Posted at 09:39h, 31 August

    Well said David.
    While we should never lose sight of the glorious nature of the day of the Lord (resurrection/rapture of the saints, the salvation of Israel, the kingdoms of this world given to Jesus Christ, the binding of Satan and the annihilation of the power of the air, the reversal of the curse and the beginning of an earthly restoration), we need to understand this “judgment day” upon ungodly humankind as well.

    Highlighting the violently passionate orgē (G3709) wrath seen in Rev 6:16-17, Rev 11:18, Rev 14:10, Rev 16:19 and Rev 19:15 is important. It basically is the highest form of wrath that we can imagine – a FIERCE, PASSIONATE, ANGRY WRATH. The ungodly fail to repent of their blasphemy, etc. and this climactic day is the fatal result. I believe that this day of wrath, fire, fierce anger, punishment, fire, indignation, hailstones, pestilence, fury, almighty power, desolation, and swift judgment is basically defined in the Old Testament as follows:

    A DAY OF FIRE: Isa 9:19, 10:17, 31:9; Eze 39:6-8
    A DAY OF FIERCE ANGER: Isa 13:9-22, 14:3-6; Jer 4:26; Micah 5:15
    A DAY OF PUNISHMENT: Isa 24:17-21
    A DAY OF FIRE, INDIGNATION & HAILSTONES: Isa 30:30, Eze 38:18-23
    A DAY OF ALMIGHTY POWER: Isa 42:13-14
    A DAY OF PESTILENCE, FIRE & INDIGNATION: Hab 3:5, 12; Mal 4:1, 3

    This is also the day when the wicked (Antichrist) is slain by the rod of Jesus’s mouth and the breath of His lips
    Compare and note the similarities between: Isa 11:4 and Isa 30:27-28 and 2 Thess 2:8

    This is the day of the Lord (aka the “day of God”) referred to in 2 Pet 3:7-12. A day of fire. A day of judgment and destruction upon ungodly men. So how should a believer live in light of the coming day of judgment? We should look for it and we should earnestly apprehend unto the coming day of God (when the FIRE comes). Our resurrection/rapture will occur so much like the time when Lot fled Sodom. It was immediately before the FIRE. Jesus says “even thus shall it be” when He returns! 2 Thess 1:7-10 also depicts the close nature of the FIRE/VENGEANCE and the GLORIFICATION of the saints.

    Luk 17:29-30 (29)  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. (30)  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

    In my opinion, if we closely study and review slides 11-21 on the attachment to the following blog post, you will see that the orgē (G3709) wrath in the book of Revelation is tightly connected to the same day of the Lord Scriptures noted above. In other words, the orgē (G3709) wrath that we see in Rev 6:16-17, 11:18, 14:10, 16:19 and 19:15 is what we see in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Micah, Habakkuk and Zephaniah. Personally, I don’t have difficulty seeing that the entire day of the Lord is the orgē (G3709) wrath of God. It lasts the entire day. Then, it appears that the climax and finish of the day of the Lord is the treading of the winepress (Rev 19:15).

    You can find the referenced slides in the following post:

    Thanks – Brandon

  • Brandon Emch
    Posted at 12:00h, 31 August

    Thanks for your response, and the video. I appreciate it. I can completely see how you interpret these three passages to mean one year due to your overall framework of understanding. That makes sense to me. On the other hand, as you know, there are probably more than 100 Scripture references that speak to the day of the LORD in terms of a single day, and then specifically other passages that directly reference the ability of God to judge the ungodly in “one day” (Isa 10:17, Zec 14:7, etc.).

    Let me first state that I am not a scholar. And, I am a frail human. The primary method that I use to understand difficult texts is using Scripture to interpret Scripture.

    That being said, I think that we need to go a little deeper, especially into the “seventy (shib’iym) sevens (shabua)” of Daniel 9:24 that you mentioned. Shib’iym is definitely a Hebrew word that means 70 multiple times in Scripture such as referring to 70 men, 70 thousand men, 70 shekels, threescore and ten kings, seventy brethren, seventy bullocks, etc. It can also mean 70 years (see for example Jer 25:12, Jer 29:10, Zec 1:12).

    But, the word shib’iym simply means seventy. So, the key is what is the object word that follows shib’iym. Is it men, brethren, shekels, bullocks, years, or weeks? This is truly the key. This is one of several reasons that I have difficulty in accepting the common interpretation of “seventy weeks” (shib’iym shabua) in Dan 9:24 as “Seventy Weeks of Years”. Why? Because notably absent in shib’iym shabua is anything that pertains to “years”. What is a shabua? It is a week of days. There isn’t one example in the entirety of Scripture where shabua is equal to a week of years. It is ALWAYS a week of days.

    We all hold ourselves accountable to the Scripture though. So if I am wrong, is there any example in Scripture that you can point me to where shabua means anything other than one week of literal days?

    I know that questioning 490 years of Dan 9:24 may seem treasonous and almost blasphemous to bring up. But as you stated in your video, does it hurt to continue digging into the Scripture to test our presuppositions? Does it hurt to allow ourselves to take a detour and consider an alternative interpretation?

    Granted, I may have missed some things in my study, research, and writing. However, I am not trying to hide anything if I mentioned only Isa 34:8a somewhere. I have comprehensively studied the Scripture on these matters and I have a strong peace about the conclusions reached. I still see it as the “year of” as mentioned initially. I am fine that there is a “year of recompense”, etc. I believe that. But in light of the overall evidence of Scripture that I have seen in my study, and the framework of understanding that I have, I don’t believe that the Scripture is equating the day of the Lord to be one year in length. My desire, as yours I’m sure, is to be like clay and to have the Scripture be the hands of the potter.

    This is way too complicated for a blog comment. In my recently published book I have striven to biblically point out some major weaknesses of the current interpretation of Dan 9:24-27. But more importantly, I also offer an alternative interpretation that incidentally fits hand in glove with the Jewish feasts (moedim), and also the Olivet Discourse, the book of Revelation, and the testimony of the prophets. My framework of understanding strongly supports a single-day day of the LORD, not a year of the LORD. To me, it is awe-inspiring of the great and omnipotent God we serve. He indeed has a set year, a set day, and a set time (Psalm 102:13).

    I love what you are doing and what you are striving for. We are definitely on the same team in our pursuit of truth and understanding. Is it good to be Berean’s on these matters. My suggestion to you is the same as what you suggested to me. Pick up a copy of my book and work through all of the material with an open heart. I think you will find it very inspiring, very Scripture-based, very eye-opening, very interesting, and I pray very God-honoring.

    Blessings to you,

  • Perry Brown
    Posted at 13:43h, 31 August

    Daniel Dudley,

    Thanks for helping me out to try understand better the pre-wrath rapture position. Are you saying that the outcome Jewish survivors of the great tribulation period that will eventually be saved as all Israel (Rom 11:25-27; Zc 12:1-13 and many other passages that you quoted) and recognize Jesus as their Messiah will only be 144,000? So, does the pre-wrath rapture position identify the 144,000 Jews of Revelation 7 and 14 with all Israel being saved at the second coming of Jesus?

    What about the passage of Zechariah 13:8-9, where it says that 2/3 of Jews in the land will be cut off and perish and 1/3 will be left and survive but trough fire as to be saved calling on the Lord? So, if this goes correct, then the Jewish population at least in Israel should be 432,000! However, there are currently a couple million Jews living in Israel. How does that work out?

    Probably the pre-wrath rapture position understand the 144,000 to be a symbolic number and not a literal one. Or does the passage of Zechariah 13 mean something totally different?


    Perry Brown

    Posted at 22:06h, 31 August

    Hi Perry,

    I mentioned in the first paragraph in the post above that “what the Old Testament calls the “remnant of Israel” is AT LEAST IN PART what Rev. 7 and 14 calls the 144,000.” Not that this is necessarily the entire remnant of Israel. The 144,000 Jews will be sealed and saved. There apparently will be others saved as well, as you pointed out making up rest of the 1/3rd mentioned in Zech. 13:8-9. But this 144,000 will be sealed and saved at the second coming.

    I don’t know for sure that the prewrath position believes the 144,000 is literal but I presume they do. I do. I also don’t know if they identify the 144,000 with the passage in Romans 11:25-27 etc. But taking the 144,000 as at least part of the remnant of Israel and saying they are not saved until the second coming it is not a uniquely prewrath position.

  • Perry Brown
    Posted at 04:38h, 01 September

    Hi Daniel,

    So if the 144,000 are not the total of the Jews saved at Jesus second coming, which could include much more, then what is the uniqueness of 144,000 as compared to the other remnant of Israel? Why then does the book of Revelation single out 144,000 if they are just a sub-part of a total Jews being saved a coming to the acknowledgment of Jesus their Messiah?


    Perry Brown

  • Howard
    Posted at 05:16h, 01 September


    There are those who would say that Jacob’s week that he served to get Rachel was the equivalent of the 7 years that he worked for laban after he had already married Leah. That word ‘week’ there could just mean that after one week of being with Leah, Laban gave Rachel to Jacob, who then worked seven more years.

    In any case, in Hebrew, the plural for weeks is Shavuot (like the Jewish holiday equivalent to Pentecost). In the prophecy given to Daniel, the plural there for the 70 weeks is “shavu’im”, which does give credence to it being other than simply weeks of days.

    Hope this is of some help, even if not definitive.

  • David Williams
    Posted at 06:09h, 01 September

    Thanks Brandon for your word of encouragement.
    I have been looking at the Chart of Alan Kurschner and have some questions.
    The Chart that Alan provided has the following events taking place during the 3 1/2 Year Great Tribulation which is prior to the Completion of the 7 Year Period.and prior to the completion of the 1260 Days of the Great Tribulation.
    The Chart of Alan shows the Event that are seen in the Sun and Moon and Stars as though it takes place during the 3 1/2 Year Great Tribulation.
    Jesus clearly states in Matthew 24 that the Signs are clearly seen in the days after the Great Tribulation is completed not during.
    The Chart shows that the Resurrection and rapture takes place during the Great Tribulation and allows the Antichrist to continue doing many things.
    Jesus states clearly that He will raise us up at the Last day and at the End of the Age.
    Paul states that at the Parousia of Jesus Christ Jesus will destroy the Son of Perdition with the Brightness of His Parousia.
    The Chart shows that the Parousia of Jesus takes place during the 3 1/2 Year Great Tribulation.
    Jesus states clearly that his Parousia will take place after the 3 1/2 Year Great Tribulation Period is completed and after the events are seen in the Sky which is also after the 3 1/2 Year Great Tribulation Period is completed.
    The Chart clearly shows Jesus coming with His fiery Angels taking vengeance on those that dont know God and being punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of Christ and from the Glory of His Power during the 3 1/2 Year Great Tribulation.
    Jesus said clearly in Math 13:39, 41, 49 that He will come with His Angels at the End of the Age which we also know is the Last Day to reap out of His Kingdom all that Offend
    Jesus said clearly that when He comes with His Angels He will sit on the Throne of His Glory again clearly at the End of this Age.
    Jesus said clearly that the Wheat and Tares must stay together until the End of the Age then the Harvest takes place.
    The Wheat and Tares cannot be harvested until the End of the Age.
    It is impossible to have the End of the Age during the Great Tribulation it has to be after as that is when the New Age will begin.
    The Chart shows the Day of the Lords Wrath beginning before the 7 Trumpets even commence
    Revelations 11 clearly shows that the Kingdoms become Christs when the 7th Trumpet is blown and it is when the 7th Trumpet is blown and Revelations 11:18 states clearly that the ORGE Wrath has Come when the 7th Trumpet is blown and not before.
    Revelations 11:18 is in complete Harmony with Revelations 19.
    The Chart shows the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hiding themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And saying to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb during the 3 1/2 Year Great Tribulation.
    Jesus clearly states that they are there in Revelations 19 when He comes and they are destroyed, it is the same group of people but Jesus states clearly that they are destroyed when He comes to Trample the Winepress of His Orge Wrath.
    Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
    Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
    Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
    Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
    The people hiding in the Rocks from the Wrath of the Lamb when He comes are clearly destroyed at the time when the Beast and False Prophet are destroyed which we know is after the Great Tribulation Period is over.
    The Timing of Revelations 6 with the People hiding from the Wrath of the Lamb at His Coming is the exact same timing as in Revelations 19, they are hiding because Jesus has Come to Trample the Winepress and when He does they are destroyed, they are not hiding for 3 ½ Years while Jesus is Trampling for 3 ½ Years.
    This is also the exact same Time the First Resurrection takes place and Satan is bound for 1000 Years.
    I find personally that there appears to be more Harmony in what Jesus states at this present time compared to the Chart.
    This is a good opportunity to see if it is possible that anyone can answer the differences for me?
    I dont have all the answers and am searching for Truth like all the brothers in Christ but I must have answers for the doubts that I have and the Inconsistency.
    Thanks again Joel and everyone else for all of the contributions.

  • Brandon Emch
    Posted at 07:10h, 01 September

    Thanks Howard. I have attempted to work through each of the nineteen times shabua is used in the Old Testament, including the example of Jacob and Rachel, and I can’t find a single instance where shabua infers a week of years opposed to a week of days.

    Can the plural simply mean that it isn’t one week (singular) as in the case of the marriage feast week, but rather multiple weeks (plural – i.e. seventy)?

    Below is the passage from Genesis 29. I have noted how the text distinguishes between years (shaneh) and a week of seven days (shabua). To me, verses 27 and 28 clearly distinguish shabua as meaning a literal week of days (i.e. the marriage feast week) as opposed to the seven years (shaneh) that he served Laban.

    In summary, Jacob first served for seven years (shaneh, verse 20). Then after the deceitful marriage to Leah he went ahead and fulfilled the marriage feast week (shabua, v27a). After this marriage feast week he was given Rachel, who he went on to serve Laban another seven years for (shaneh, v27b).

    Gen 29:20-30
    (20) And Jacob served seven years [SHANEH—Strong’s H8141] for Rachel; and they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love he had to her.
    (21) And Jacob said unto Laban, Give me my wife, for my days are fulfilled, that I may go in unto her.
    (22) And Laban gathered together all the men of the place, and made a feast.
    (23) And it came to pass in the evening, that he took Leah his daughter, and brought her to him; and he went in unto her.
    (24) And Laban gave unto his daughter Leah Zilpah his maid for an handmaid.
    (25) And it came to pass, that in the morning, behold, it was Leah: and he said to Laban, What is this thou hast done unto me? did not I serve with thee for Rachel? wherefore then hast thou beguiled me?
    (26) And Laban said, It must not be so done in our country, to give the younger before the firstborn.
    (27) Fulfil her week [SHABUA—Strong’s H7620], and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years {SHANEH—Strong’s H8141].
    (28) And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week [SHABUA—Strong’s H7620]: and he gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also.
    (29) And Laban gave to Rachel his daughter Bilhah his handmaid to be her maid.
    (30) And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years [SHANEH—Strong’s H8141].

    This passage seems pretty clear. At least it doesn’t give me comfort to Scripturally equate shabua with a week of years.


  • Howard
    Posted at 22:27h, 01 September

    I agree with you about the Genesis passage, Brandon. But the Daniel passage has the plural in a different form than the regular word for weeks: shavu’im vs shavuot. Also, the purpose of God’s 70 weeks as given to Daniel has an objective that has not been achieved. He is not speaking merely of 70 weeks of days; although, of course, He can also accomplish something within 70 weeks — divided up into 7 + 62 + 1 — during the final 7 years if He wants to, but then the description given to Daniel regarding that division would not fit..

    Praise to God! His wisdom is far above ours, even though He will share it with us at times. 🙂

  • Brandon Emch
    Posted at 07:24h, 02 September

    Howard – I don’t know Hebrew so I am most certainly at a disadvantage when it comes to understanding vowel pointings, etc! But a couple of years ago I did review the other instances where the identical Hebrew spelling is found. We are getting into the weeds here, but I believe there are only three other places where shabua is spelled identically to the “Seventy שׁבעים” in Dan 9:24. One is Dan 9:25a, one is Daniel 10:2 and one is Dan 10:3. It is clear that Daniel mourned and fasted for three literal weeks and not years. So other than how the “weeks” are interpreted in Dan 9:24-27, I still cannot find any Scriptural precedent for making it “weeks of years”. In addition, and this is beyond my understanding, but in Dan 9:24-27 alone the Hebrew spelling for shabua is spelled five different ways.

    I most certainly think we would agree 100% on the objective of the passage. The accomplishments of Dan 9:24 will come to pass on the day of the LORD. I also agree with the division of the weeks, including the arrival of an anointed one 7 weeks after a commandment is given (syntax of this passage that is commonly ignored). This prophecy is monumental because it develops and/or impacts our overall framework for understanding the time of the end. In hindsight, after much time and study, I believe that we have hamstrung ourselves with the commonly-accepted future 7 year presupposition.

    You may think that I am stepping out on a slender and flimsy limb here. But, I think once bible students become willing to consider another biblical interpretation of Dan 9:24-27 they will see with greater clarity than ever before. It may seem unreasonable, even impossible. Like an enormous mountain to climb. But once you reach the top, there is beauty.

    I’m not going to go into detail here and introduce several other shortcomings that I see. But I would be happy to email Chapter 2 of my book to you. I think that you would appreciate at least taking a view of this passage through a different lens, and then seeing how (when harmonized with many other Scriptures) things fall into place, including with the Jewish feasts. I am unable to go back to the “weeks as years” camp. I was there once. It was all that I knew.

    May I say that what I write about isn’t crazy stuff. My faith tells me that the answers to our questions are in the Scripture. So that is the focus and emphasis. To sum it up, I’m a common person that loves to interpret Scripture in as plain and simple manner as possible. And doing so has opened my eyes to other presuppositions that I formerly held as well. May God be glorified as we seek to know and understand Him and His plans more and more!


  • Howard
    Posted at 11:05h, 02 September


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