65 Responses

1. Oops you mentioned a third of the stars fell in Daniel 8 my NIV says some of the starry host. Maybe you were thinking of Revelation 12 or you might see them as the same event???

2. Yes, the description in Revelation 12 is a direct allusion back to Daniel 8.

3. One thing is for sure Joel, there will sadly be wars in the Middle East however things turn out.

   While asking our local Turkish cafe owners about Turkeys vote, I drew blank faces, but help came from the kitchen. Apparently my pronounciation of Erdogan was wanting ????.

4. Great call on the nation of Turkey, yet…..keeping yourself and advising others remain in a state of humbleness. the “bedrock” of Christianity. Being open to ideas that may be uncomfortable and as of yet unnoticed.,what a typical way God works…Keep up the good work Joel…

5. Thank you for a very thought provoking commentary. I appreciate your attitude about being willing to study the scriptures and other views. It is a very rare attitude in this day and age.+

6. Thanks for the hard work your putting in for us who aren’t where your at in wisdom of the scriptures. Another question Revelation 12:14 is the women the Church? And she will go to a safe place in the wilderness in the tribulation? On earth ?
   May the Lord continue to Bless with strength & wisdom you & yours

7. Very insightful and informing presentation. T’hank you.

   How do you see this focus on Islam and Islamic countries mixing with the economies, technologies, governments, etc. of the West and Europe as the Antichrist takes power? The iron and clay 10 toes? The west enables Antichrist with military and economic technology (mark of the Beast)? etc.

   Continuing to pray for your very timely and needed ministry.

   Dave

8. Hi Joel

   I just wanted to take a moment and express my appreciation for your ministry. It has been a tremendous blessing to me but I couldn’t possibly begin to explain it all here.

   I have had opportunities in my church to really share your ministry with others and the congregation of what I have learned from yourself and couple others.
   But I have 2 really pressing questions that maybe you could help me out with. Unrelated to this recent video but I’m hoping for some direction.

   1st. Why does Jesus rule the nations with a rod of iron during the millennium if his return instantaneously rids the world of evil? To explain my hang up I could put it this way. Believers will have no need of a strong hand to govern us when we will be like Him and all the evil doers are done away with. Compounding my dilemma are the scriptures in 1Cor. 15:25-26 where Paul says He must reign until He has defeated all His enemies and death being the last enemy to be dealt a final blow. Also Rev. 21-4 death is still around until after the millennium is over or comes to a close. I’m not trying to come across as a heritic I just genuinely would like to understand this better.

   2nd. This one is not a super big deal but because of your teachings and others I am rather convinced that the church is ‘caught up’ pre wrath not pre difficulties and pressure. Revelation 14:14-16 tends put this event, ‘the rapture’ at this point. It is before the bowls of God’s wrath Revelation 15:1 & 7 and after the last trumpet Cor.15:52 and Revelation 11:15.
   My Question is why no one ever deals with this verse Rev.14:14-16. I can’t find a better description of being caught up and meetting the Lord in the clouds than this one but if I have miss read this maybe you could give me some things to look at.

   Lastly if you don’t want to answer these questions here on the internet here is a different offer. I live on Vancouver Island BC Canada and we have the best salmon fishing in the world. So we could sit for a couple of hours, real in a few 20lb spring salmon and solve all the world’s problems from a boat in the Pacific Ocean.

   Many Blessings to you and your family.

   Thanks again for all you do.

9. Joel,
   I think that one of the main reasons for those that support the majority of Daniel 8 as having already been fulfilled by Alexander the Great and then later Anitochus is verse 23 “And in the latter time of their kingdom….a king….shall stand up.” There is about 170-200 years between these two men depending on when we start the dates. The problem with this theory, as you mentioned, is that this does not account for the 3 end time Gabriel tells Daniel that this prophecy concerns the time of the end. You agree that Alexander and Antiochus could be a type and shadow of the coming first king of Greece and the later little horn that arises from one of the four split up kingdoms from the large horn being broken.
   This leads me to a couple questions concerning the identity of the two horned ram of Iran and how long it could take for this scenario to pan out.
   If your conjecture is correct in that Erdogan is the large horn and that Turkey will soon defeat Iran in a war, then who would be the two leaders in Iran? The two horns of the ram (one being higher then the other, and the higher came up last-vs. 4) by the historical interpretation are The Medes and Persians with Cyrus and Darius ruling. So my first question is if this is a type of a future kingdom by Iran then who or what would be the bigger horn and the smaller horn on the ram to be defeated by the single large horn(vs. 4)?
   My second question is won’t this whole prophecy take many years to be fulfilled from where we are now? Gabriel said “in the latter time of their kingdom (perhaps one of the 4 kingdoms split off from Erdogan’s Turkey), when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance….shall stand up.”
   So essentially for this to happen there needs to at least be 4 major events:
   1. A war between Turkey and Iran in which Turkey wins
   2. Erdogan’s reign coming to an end
   3. Turkey (or whatever will comprise Turkey then) will then split off to 4 new kingdoms
   4. An undetermined period of time to fulfill “in the latter time of their kingdom”
   And only then the rise of a man from one of the 4 kingdoms who eventually becomes the Antichrist.

   I am not arguing against this position but trying to lay out all the pieces to better understand the overall puzzle. Again, if the 170-200 year time period from Alexander to Antiochus is indeed a type and shadow of what is to come in the time of the end then it would seem that there would be many years ahead for this to be fulfilled in our day. The problem I have with this and I’m sure that you have with this as well (as I have read in your books) is that there doesn’t seem to be many more years left before Jesus 2nd coming takes place. Certainly not hundreds of years. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated and thanks for the very informative teachings.

10. Thanks Joel, awesome video mate. It prompted me to read Daniel 8 & 11 yet again, and what you propose (consistent futurist theory) makes clear sense to me. Could another possibility be that Erdogan is one of the four prominent horns (Northern Selecuid region) from which the little horn (AC) emerges, or doesn’t that line up as well as the other 2 scenarios (Erdogan = large horn that is broken off, or the little horn-AC)?

11. Jason,

    First question: In brief, the millennium is a transitionary period between this age and the eternal state. Evil will still exist, yet things will be dramatically better than they are now.

    Sorry so brief. Would love the salmon fishing and fellowship!
    Blessings,
    Joel

12. The woman is Israel.

13. Air-Doe-Wan

14. Hi Joel,

    I am writing you here because I don’t know where else too. Hopefully you see it and it is not completely off topic.

    You know I almost got into an internet fight over you with a guy responding to your brand of eschatology on his blog. I refrained because I thought it strange. You see I am, even though it has lost most of its popularity, a “pre-trib” believer. Actually though the placement of the rapture seems to be about the only area I disagree with you on.

    I am reading/studying your latest on mystery Babylon. And thus far I noticed one blaring, for me anyway, piece that is missing. You haven’t addressed, as of yet, Matthew 24:15 wherein Jesus quotes Daniel concerning the abomination that makes desolate. Now I am sure you know how much this verse in context speaks to a pre-tribulationist who might say this is a shadow of what happens in the last days even though a preterist would say it happened then. It ties the Roman Empire to Jerusalem if this is a shadow of a future fulfillment. One thing that has always bothered me is that Jesus said “not one stone will be left standing…” and yet we have Jews and Christians who worship at the Wailing Wall. I believe Islam or more pointedly, I believe ISIS would love to destroy the wall… and if they do then not one stone would be left. Ironically what might trigger this assault would be the current Pope visiting the wall and once again alluding to modern day Israel as an apartheid state. So could it be both? A mixing that does not mix of clay and iron?

    On a side note, and similarly, concerning the rapture, could it be all of the above or below that is?
    1. Pre-Trib rapture – very few go. They are not some special people, in fact they are fragile, as noted in the letter to them. It doesn’t have the magnitude to cause a ripple in the World but fulfills a promise to the Church of Philadelphia in these end times. He keeps them from the Wrath of God to come. They represent the Church we now know.

    2. Mid-Trib rapture of the martyrs, the 2 branch witness of the stick in Ephraim’s hand and the stick in the hand of David. The 2 Witnesses themselves would be representative of each major House of Israel. The killing of them in Jerusalem includes the 12 tribes of the 144,000. This rapture is much more significant than the first. And every eye sees it happen. Very few are left, as Jesus said, if God does not prevent it no flesh would be saved but for the elect sake those days are shortened. The “elect” being Israel in the last days.

    3. Then the most significant of all three, a rapture of all the saints, the Resurrection promised as seen by Paul where those living do not precede those who have died for the witness of the Gospel. We meet in the air and in an instant those who are alive are changed and the soul’s who have died receive their glorified bodies. With The Resurrection Jesus establishes his kingdom.

    I believe we put to much emphasis on the fact that God uses rapture events for his purposes. The catching away of God’s people is a reoccurring theme in the scripture, whether they be lifted away in a boat above the waves of God’s Wrath, snatched away in secret a man who was and then was not, snatched away by Chariot of Fire, or a small insignificant prophet writing from Patmos, snatched up into Heaven to witness the Resurrection and Day of the Lord.

    Anyway.

    Just my .02 cents

    -Joseph

15. I find it fascinating that Davidson suggests Iran’s jumping point will be Shush (Susa) in Modern day Iran. That is where the traditional tomb of Daniel is located! Kind of cool that his prophecy of the ram and the goat possibly involve the location of his tomb.

16. Har, so it’s not Ur du gun with a Brummie accent ????

17. No worries. I hear peoples even from the Middle East mispronounce it.

18. Joel,

    Would it be accurate to say that Erdogan might qualify to be the 1st king of Yavan because he could be considered the first ruler of the revived 7th (8th) Beast Empire?
    In other words Mustafa Kamal Attaturk decapitated the 7th Beast Empire (Mortal Head Wound) and for the past ~90 years Turkey has been ruled by a form of government (Western Secular Democracy) that is not considered a “Beast”.style government. But now Erdogan appears to be the man who intends to discard Democracy in order to revive that former Beast-style government. Whether he actually is the one who officially accomplishes it or just lays the groundwork for it’s revival is uncertain. But should that title of “1st King of Yavan” be given to the one responsible for reviving the form of Government of the 7th Beast? (preparing the way for the 8th Beast) ?

    This may seem like a rookie question but …..
    Would it be accurate to say that the 7th Beast is the “Terrible” Beast with the Ten Horns and the iron teeth?
    And the 8th Beast is the compilation of the Leopard,Lion,Bear,Terrible Beast?

    In regard to Daniel’s Metal Statue:
    Which version (if any) do you consider correct?

    a) Gold Head (Babylon-3rd) Silver Chest (Persian-4th) Bronze Torso (Greek-5th) Iron Legs (Roman-6th) Iron/Clay Feet (Ottoman-7th) (no 8th Empire specified)
    b) Gold Head (Babylon-3rd) Silver Chest (Persian-4th) Bronze Torso (Greek-5th) Iron Legs (Ottoman-7th) Iron/Clay Feet (Revived Ottoman-8th) (no 6th Empire specified)

    (my last 2 questions essentially involve which Empire(s) the 10 kings/feet-toes/horns belong to? The 7th & 8th or Just the 8th )

    Thanks.

19. Joel,

    Could the burden of Damascus (Isaiah 17) be the flashpoint that triggers the Iranian invasion?

20. Elton,

    No. Isaiah 17 takes place much later.

21. Joel,

    Excellent video on Erdogan. Having read Davidson’s book, I found it thought-provoking but also felt that it followed some rabbit trails pretty deep into the forest. While I don’t agree with all of his conclusions, I would recommend the book. There’s a lot of good work that went into it.

    It’s a shame that we always refer to the dictator-in=question as the Antichrist. It’s the term that everyone knows, but is one of the least descriptive titles for the ruler. He is the king of the north, the Assyrian, the Chief Prince of Magog. Probably also the King of Tyre. And since he receives the dragon’s seat and authority, we can also identify him as the coming Prince of Pergamos (there’s a new book title, Joel).

    I think the signs are becoming clearer that the Antichrist is coming out of Turkey. Syria is about to fall. I think Isaiah 17 is unfolding before our eyes. The suburbs of Damascus are a mess. The water supply has been repeatedly poisoned. If Syria falls, Lebanon falls. Let me point out some symbolism about Trump’s bombing of Syria on April 6. That was not only the 77th day of his presidency, but April 6 was also 10 Nisan. As part of the Passover holiday, that is the day that the lambs are chosen for sacrifice. In other words, Trump decided to take action against Assad on the day that the lambs are chosen for the slaughter.

    If Syria falls, Lebanon falls. And I think there’s only four possibilities for the Antichrist’s home country of origin: Lebanon, Syria, Turkey or Iraq. The fall of Damascus probably would require NATO (and by extension, Turkey) to go into Lebanon and Syria. If Turkey routs ISIS, or if Iran routs ISIS and Turkey subsequently invades that territory, that would place Turkey in firm control of ancient Assyria. Ergo, validating Erdogan and all future Turkish presidents as the Assyrian, the King of Tyre, and the chief prince of Magog.

    Joel, I also believe that the recent referendum in Turkey is significant, prophetically. I believe that the Antichrist is found beginning in Daniel 11:21, rather than 11:36. We are told that the cruel and vile king of the north will not carry the “honor of royalty.” Like Germany, Italy and the USSR in the 1920s, Turkish law now establishes the political office of an elected dictator, rather than a despot of regal origin or birth.

    I think the best argument against Erdogan is that he is far too prominent to catch anyone by surprise as the little horn. Daniel 7 describes the little horn rising up after the others. And Erdogan’s pro-Islamic rhetoric and statements about Jerusalem would probably preclude Israel from making a covenant with him. Joel, let me suggest another name to consider: Ahmet Davutoglu. His career may be over. But he was both a Pan-Islamist and a foreign policy specialist at deal-making, which I think fits the Daniel 11 narrative. The fact that his last name means, “son of David” is rather unpleasant anecdote. Or maybe worse.

    Keep up the great work, Joel. We appreciate it.

22. Joel, love your books and I appreciate your insights and your videos. I really struggle looking at Daniel 8 in a complete “futuristic” interpretation based on the “lateness of the hour” of the world affairs as we perceive them. I believe what Gabriel describes requires at minimum 50 years to be realized, but more realistically hundreds of years, and I cannot see this world lasting another 50 years before the Lord’s return. I actually believe it’s much closer but let’s go with that for the sake of argument.
     
    Here’s my hypothesis in 3 acts:
     
    ACT 1:
    “No beast could stand before him, and there was no one who could rescue from his power. He did as he pleased and became great.”
     
    Iran and the Kurds (as in old Medes, the 2 horn) presumably need to unite, raise up and conquer in all directions, with basically no opposition. The two people coming together is problematic on its own, but let’s assume it happens. As a result of this conquest Iran becomes great. However, this conquest and the successful result which is attested by the text requires time. You cannot become great for 2 weeks or 2 months, or even a year. There appears to be no precedent where a kingdom becomes great for simply executing on an invasion and immediately being beat up and crushed. For example, no one can say Iraq became great for invading Kuwait. Even in the Eze 38/39 war, the nations invading Israel are not said to become great despite the overwhelming invasion, because they are being destroyed by God. In same manner Iran cannot become great if it’s being beat/destroyed by Turkey immediately. For Iran to “become great” I think you need some time, a minimum of 5-10 years in my opinion to exercise dominion over the conquered territories in order “to become” great. Anything less than that, or an immediate reprisal from Javan/Turkey just does not agree with the text and would prevent Iran from “becoming great”.
     
    Moreover, any effort to conduct such abusive invasion by Iran will most likely encounter severe punishment by a US Trump administration and/or coalition. Similarly, Arab countries – now heavily armed by US – will respond with at least some level of opposition to being attacked, which contradicts the text that “he did as he pleased” – which basically implies that there is no opposition whatsoever. This would further extend the war. Moreover, even if no generic response is triggered from the West for Iran starting an invasion, a deliberate attack on Saudi – US ally – would definitely trigger a heavy response from US in similar manner to that of IRAQ invading Kuwait.
     
    We should also assume that this act would immediately be perceived as hostile by Israel and most likely also trigger a response. Based on latest agreements with the Saudis (their brothers), Israel may quickly be coming to their aid in the event of an invasion. Therefore, I struggle to see an Iran doing as he pleases and becoming great afterwards, and do it in a record time given the current world condition.
     
     
    ACT 2:
     7 I saw him come close to the ram, and he was enraged against him and struck the ram and broke his two horns. And the ram had no power to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground and trampled on him. And there was no one who could rescue the ram from his power. 
     
    While Turkey military force is size-wise somewhat similar to that of Iran, it is clearly perceived as superior, so one can argue that in an Iran-Turkey war, Turkey could eventually win the war. The degree of destruction and “trampling” however described does not appear to be proportionate given what we know of Iran today. Thus, this effort of beating back Iran would take some time and would impede a future coalition for Eze 38/39. A severely trampled / destroyed Iran nation will simply not be ready for a partnership with their destroyer, and an attack the following year(s). It just does not make sense. The war will take some time and the recovery will take years. Consider how long the US – Iraq war had lasted (and that was US, not Turkey)…. And the recovery of Iraq is still underway. Under no circumstance is Iraq even at this point able to consider an invasion.
     
    ACT 3:
    8 Then the goat became exceedingly great, but when he was strong, the great horn was broken, and instead of it there came up four conspicuous horns toward the four winds of heaven.
     
     22 As for the horn that was broken, in place of which four others arose, four kingdoms shall arise from his nation, but not with his power.
     
    Here’s the main problem. While some time is required to accomplish ACT 1 and 2, it is feasible and could occur in 5-10 years. However, the creation of the four kingdoms would take exponentially more time than that. I find no historical precedent that shows that creation of a kingdom instantaneously. The creation of a kingdom usually takes many years and is frothed with wars (ie. Israel 1948). For example, it took 40 years for the Diadochi wars to arrive to some stable situation and while it did not start initially with four generals – as many believe, it eventually ended up with four power blocks – Ptolemy, Seleucid, Attalid and Antigonid. Consider also that the creation of these four kingdoms mentioned by Gabriel imply fullness, not just fast creation or a short lifespan, which becomes important in my next point. Thus, in a similar situation, I would estimate that the creation of four new kingdoms would require at minimum 30-40 years.
     
    Lastly, what seals it for me and convinces me that Gabriel must have described yet future events from our perspective is Gabriel’s statement in verse 23:

    23 And at the latter end of their kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their limit, 
     
    What Gabriel is clearly saying here is that these four kingdoms once instantiated, will also need to run their course for some time in order to reach some maturity and then have a “latter end”. You simply cannot have all that in a couple years or a decade. Moreover, something else also needs to happen during the lifespan of these four kingdoms, and that is that the “transgressors need to reach their limit”. We see similar language used by God with Abraham in Gen 15 with regard to the Amorites transgressions requiring 400 years to reach fullness/limit. Thus this verse cannot be interpreted any other way but requiring a rather “long time” to achieve the “latter end” in order to give time for the “transgressors to reach their limit”. If Gabriel indented for this to mean a much shorter span, he could have said “after a few years” for example. To use “latter end” would be ridiculous if let’s say the beginning of the four kingdoms is in 2017 but the latter end in 2020. I am no scholar (I suppose you can get Heiser’s take on this passage) but in plain layman reading, and based on other Bible passages, this text simply require at least hundreds of years to be accomplished. So even if I were to suppress my common sense understanding based on the literal reading, I would say this requires at least 50 years … but more likely hundreds. In actuality, it appears it has taken thousands of years for this to reach the “latter end “.
     
    So, based on the above, it is rather clear to me that we are looking at the latest stages of this prophecy right now, with the known historical background of Persia/Alexander wars which eventually gave rise to the four power blocks, one of which – at the “latter end”, after the transgressors have reached their limit (and boy are there transgressions we can lay at the Ottoman feet) – is taking front stage as we speak.
     
    Moreover, with Iran being the first to immediately congratulate Turkey on the failed coup, it appears Turkey and Iran are actually getting closer not farther away. What will unite these two for the Eze 38/39 war is the utter hate of Israel (see latest rant from Turkish deputy PM http://www.yenisafak.com/en/world/the-muslim-world-must-not-forget-jerusalem-kurtulmus-2650959) both experience.
     
    And by the way, don’t hold this against Gabriel either. He is being quite explicit I believe. Twice – in v 19, followed more strongly by v 23, he provides clarification that while this relates to the end times, there is such a thing as a “latter time” which is achieved after some period of time after the four kingdoms have had their run. I believe he had to start way back with some parts to provide sufficient context to Daniel and more importantly to us.
     
    Do I dare say Erdogan is the Antichrist? Heck no. I have no idea. Like you said, he displays Antichristic qualities but so did Obama and Hitler…
     
    The hour is late!.. Indeed too late my friend for this to be completely future.
    God Bless,
     

23. Hi Adrian,

    Joel may engage you here or he may not depending upon the amount of time he has to opine on your post. However, I would suggest you direct your Daniel 8 post to Mark Davidson, author of “Daniel Revisited”. He has a blog dedicated to this topic and other related signposts in his Signposts theory. Not sure Joel would allow another blog link on his website but it is extremely easy to find when you do a web search and use the search term, “four signposts” and or Mark Davidson.

    Blessings!

24. Joel, I just finished your book Babylon, great read and thanks for signing it too. I already knew of your position on Babylon, but it was great to read your full panorama on the subject, and better yet, your taking the time to confront other popular views (America, New York, etc) I look forward someday to reading a book by you focused entirely on the Olivet discourse, I echo Robert Sharp’s earlier question, that based on where we are now in history, Daniel 8:23 might suggest that we still have awhile (years maybe?) before the man of sin rises up? As the verse says after the large horn is broken off and the 4 horns which rose in it’s place, that “in the latter period of their rule (the 4 kings), a king will arise. The phrase “latter period of their rule” suggests to me, a somewhat relatively lengthy time before this occurs. Who knows? The 4 kings period of rule may be several months or several years…quite possible a mutually agreed upon interim leadership transitional period following the sudden loss of the big horn, while they wait for a single leader to emerge.

25. Adrian,

    You could be right. Time will tell. You do make some valid points, yet you exaggerate far too much to make your case. For example, you stated that it would “clearly” take “at minimum 30-40 years” for the four kingdom divisions to become established. Yet if the prophecy is historical, as you are arguing, it only took a few years for the diadochi kingdoms to become well established after Alexander died. At the most, one might say it took 19 years from his death to the Battle of Ipsus and the death of Antigonus. So you’ve contradicted and disproven your own point. You make several similar exaggerated claims and use the word “clearly” for things that are anything but clear far too much. It is entirely possible for this whole thing to unfold over the next 8-10 years. Never impose onto Scripture what you can imagine. The future has a way of throwing us curve balls and things such as the Arab Spring can pop up and change all the rules overnight. We simply do not know what the future holds.

    That said, your point is not without merit and I actually agree with your hesitancy. It is possible that the prophecy is indeed intending to simply bleed from the historical events into the latter day period. I do not rule this out. I remain adamant that we must remain humble and be open to this. So I appreciate your effort to explain your hesitancy to embrace the consistent futurist position. I would only encourage you to remain open as well.

    Blessings!
    Joel

26. Hi Greg,

    Thanks for the encouragement. The problem with the claim that “the latter period of their rule” must point to a last days king to arise out of one of these four divisions, is the fact that it says during the latter period “of their rule.” These four kingdoms ceased to exist a long long time ago. So that view, although not entirely without merit also has its challenges. I agree with your question: “Who knows?” For this reason, I think we continue to remain humble and prayerful and continue to watch.

    Blessings!
    Joel

27. Wondering: why is the “many” of Daniel 9:27 so often understood as Israel, or leaders of Israel? Couldn’t it just as easily refer to many nations?

28. The simple answer is context. The entire context of Daniel 9 is Israel. This continues to be the case after the covenant is made. Thus, when the covenant is broken, it specifically results in what? The Antichrist sets up the abomination that causes desolation on the temple mount. We must also understand that Israel’s covenant with death is a theme that is found in much more than just Daniel. Isaiah 28 also speaks of this coming covenant and proscriptions against making covenant with the surrounding peoples is also a common theme found throughout torah. When the leaders of Israel make a covenant with the AC, this is simply the culmination of their rejection of their previous covenant with the Lord.

29. Joel mt earnest and humble thanks for your work, ministry, this forum.
    I’ve read and shared your books with family and friends, it’s been illuminating to say the least. A question, and a heartfelt bit of advice based on your own work, and a couple other insights.
    My question pertains to the head wound incurred by the Beast, from which he apparently recovers; could this be a sign of the destruction of the Saudi kingdom, which might then involve a move of the centroid of Islamic power to Turkey for the final act?
    And because your work has become so important and instructive to myself and so many others; let me firmly but gently suggest with deep concern, please! Take care and caution of your safety and that of your family! If the Saud family can throw billions at their enemies to silence, terrorize and mislead, your work and books make you a painful thorn to be removed, and quickly! Your outing of their corrupt influence is bound to make yo a target! I hope I’m wrong, I also suppose your unconcerned on your own part, being ready to face persecution for the name of YESHUA HaMasciach , but your family and your fellow Christian family need your steadying influence for as long as Christ wills you here!God richly bless you my brother.

30. Joel, I’m following my previous email up, because I realized I needed to clarify my question.
    I’m supposing that the Psalm 83 war will occur first, or relatively soon, and in that prophecy most of Israels immediate neighbors are destroyed. The God Magog prophecy, which I understand to follow the Psalm 83 event,has Arabia and Egypt, sitting on the sidelines,asking if the Gog Magog group have come for spoil?. I presume that possibly both these nations are sidelined by an Israeli military action, which leads to Israel dwelling securely in the land without walls.
    Your thoughts?

31. On a different tact; isn’t it amazing how the Saudi kingdom has remained so unobserved, unnoticed in all of its subversion over the last 30 to 40 years? Certainly this appears to be part of a larger Spiritual blindness affecting the world during these events. Blessings

32. https://joelstrumpet.com/the-psalm-83-war/

33. Daniel 8:23. And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full a king of fierce countenance and understanding dark sentences shall stand up. means the earth has to be in really dark place where sin has reached its peak? Really horrible where we are begging for some humanity. Like in time of Noah but we need 4 kingdoms to stand out of the nations first And transgressors are the people of 4 kingdoms Islamic evil people like radical Islam in the area but sin will be so prevalent couldn’t get any worse (sin). Always been horrible sin going on but the area will be so done with the evil sin. People have finally had enough of it all and rise up against it. Then he shall arise (antichrst)
    Thank you for your teachings sorry I am not as knowledgeable as I should be at this time in my life????
    Blessings & Strength in our Lord Jesus
    Debbie

34. Joel, So if the 4 kingdoms of Daniel 8:23 are possibly historical and not future, who are the historical four kingdoms? Do they correspond to the Daniel 2 statue vision of ol’ Neb?

35. No, It is most commonly said they were the four diadochi or successor kingdoms or dynasties that followed Alexander after his death. So most today would say Cassander, Lysimachus, Seleucis, and Ptolemy. The problem is that Antigonus is most often left out.

36. FROM HOLLAND

    Hi Joel,
    Thanks a lot for your professionals books and underground information.
    In Holland (EU) I give more and more seminars about endtime issues. I use your books mostly..

    For example the organisation of Pillar of Fire in The Hague (owner Jack van der Tang). Pillar of Fire has strong ties with Israel , but also in de US and other countries.
    Most christians/protestant people in Holland believe in prophecies in a metaphorical way.
    Thats ‘s why a lot aren’t interested at all, Because they think they are rescued by Christ, so no one can do us wrong anymore..
    Typical the behaviour of the 5 virgins Jesus talks about.

    But anyway , maybe I can ask Pillar of Fire inviting you to Holland and you can do a seminar or whatsoever.

37. Hi Peter. I would enjoy visiting the Netherlands. Blessings.

38. Promise not to promise again????

    Erdagon scores another goal with his mid East support:

    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/we-wont-allow-call-for-morning-prayers-to-be-silenced-in-jerusalem-turkeys-erdogan.aspx?PageID=238&NID=112878&NewsCatID=510

    Israel respond:

    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/israel-responds-to-erdogans-criticism-of-call-to-prayer-ban-in-jerusalem-summons-envoy.aspx?pageID=517&nID=112883&NewsCatID=510

39. Joel,
    I agree with you about Erdogan not likely the AC, but he is certainly stirring the pot of wars and rumors of wars. The more boastfully outspoken and militant he is toward Israel, the more it disqualifies him as the rider on the white horse with a bow but no arrows, conquering and to conquer. IMO

40. Joel are you going to Franklin Graham’s World Summit? I hear VP Mike Pence is speaking.

    https://lp.billygraham.org/persecuted/?utm_source=bgeatoday+email+05.10.2017&utm_medium=bgemail&utm_campaign=bgemailnewsletter&utm_content=BY175ANL1&SOURCE=BY175ANL1

41. No, would love to though.

42. FIRST QUESTION: If Erdogan is the 1st King (Goat with single horn) typically associated with Greece, who would have been the Ram with 2 horns? Has that happened or are you saying the goat has yet to overcome the ram? SECOND QUESTION: If Erdogan is the Goat, does that mean there will be 10 other kings in succession that arise out of one of the 4 kingdoms that come from his kingdom? In other words, does the 10 horned beast in Daniel 7 correspond to one of the 4 horns in Daniel 8? Thanks

43. If Erdogan is the first king, then Iran and Media (possibly the Kurds) represents the two horned ram, soon to “butt out” into the Middle East.

    If Erdogan is the prominent horn of the he-goat, then after his death, four regions would succeed his, out of which would come a small horn (a leader who initially seems of small significance) who will eventually gain control over ten regional kings or nations.

44. During Erdogan’s visit in DC, he sends his thugs in to beat up on protesters on American soil. This, just a taste of what Turkey has in store for those who dare object.
    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/05/new-video-shows-erdogan-watching-armed-thugs-beat-protesters-journalists-washington-dc/

45. Hi Joel,

    So if you are going to say Javan in Daniel 8 represents a futuristic Turkey then what about the Med0-Persians? You seem to skip right over that part of Gabriel’s interpretation, If the whole of the vision is strictly futuristic don’t you have to account for the 2 horned Ram of Maday – Paras? Do you dispute that part of the interpretation was fulfilled by Medo-Persia? I mean I guess you would have to right?

    Also, the connection of Javan to Greece and Maday to the Medes is that both are listed as sons of Japheth. Javan’s descendants, according to every commentary I have read, settle in Greece relative to the Eastern Ionian Greeks who worshipped Apollo.

    Where do you get that Javan’s descendants are found in the regions of modern day Turkey in Daniel 8?

    Maday’s descendants become the Medes. Wouldn’t that include Iraq? If I went with your view wouldn’t we need to see Erdogan’s Turkey attacking both Iran and Iraq?

46. Jospeh,

    Yes, Medea and Persia would be the regions of modern day Iran and possibly the Kurdish areas. Javan settled in western Asia Minor, or Turkey, not European Greece. Ionia was located in Turkey, not modern Greece. Its not an issue of bloodlines, but regions. How do you understand the names in Ezekiel 38-39? Meshech, Tubal, Gomer, Togormah., etc. These are also all names from the Table of Nations in Genesis 10, Noah’s grandsons. Most responsible commentators understand these to refer to the correlating regions where these peoples dwelt in Ezekiel’s day or as Ezekiel would have understood these regions. It is not a matter of bloodlines.

47. Joel before I post anything else, if I post anything else, I hope my last post didn’t come off as combative. If it is combative it is only to get to the clarity of things. I am seriously considering your take on these things.

    One of my first Eschatology “teachers” was Dr. Gene Scott. He said the AntiChrist would come out of Syria or Turkey back in the 80’s. I have since then believed he was right. I always struggled with the idea that Rome… not even the most central nation of Europe right now… would somehow produce a political world ruler with the ability to hold together iron and clay. I do believe as Scott did that the Roman Catholic Church could very well be vacated in the highest ranks if a rapture should occur and that the Beast could take her and let her ride on his back. I am now reconsidering the latter because I have read 2 of your books – The Islamic AntiChrist and recently Mystery Babylon.

    Honestly though there are issues in my humble opinion with how you interpret the placement of the catching away of the saints,and also it seems everything you espouse rests on your interpretation of Daniel 8 as purely futuristic. I need/ed clarity on how you can say Javan was a region geographically in Turkey? All the commentaries I have using Logos, Wiki, and over the Internet disagree with that assessment. However looking at a World map you can see that Greece and Turkey are right next to each other. The Ionians were Eastern Greeks… and I am aware the boundaries have changed over the millenia. And I am sorry but if you are going to say this is not about bloodlines I am going to have to disagree. When it comes to Israel and Judah, Ephraim – Joseph and the Jews it is very much about bloodlines and the Promised line of the Messiah. If that is true for Israel then it must be true for the surrounding nations God juxtaposes around them… the Sons of Japheth… Sons of Shem… Sons of Ishmael. It very. well may be the glue that holds it all together and prevents bad interpretation from taking root.

48. I remember Gene Scott. Hilarious guy.

    You didn’t answer my question. Why would you interpret Ezekiel 38-39 or any other end time prophecy which uses ancient names as thus being historical? This would seem to be inconsistent.

    As I have said, the consistent futurist interpretation of Daniel 8 is merely one possibility. In my most recent program, I laid out both it and the more traditional view. If we go with the more traditional view, it could allow for the current President of Turkey to be the Antichrist, as some speculate, and which I have pondered for well over the past ten years. I am not dogmatic on any of this, nor does anything I believe rest on it. We are to consider all legitimate possibilities.

    All of my Bible atlases are in boxes right now. I assure you that most place Javan and Ionia on the western side of Turkey. For now, here is what Baker encyclopedia of the Bible states:

    Javan (Place).
    Location commonly identified with Greece. The name is linguistically associated with Ionia, a region in westernmost Asia Minor that was colonized by Greeks. By extension Javan came to be applied to Greece itself. Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1988), 1097.

    Note the develop of the meaning of the word. It began in Turkey, but came to be used of all of Greece, and eventually all of Alexander’s Kingdom.

    Wikipedia likewise states:

    Ionia (Ancient Greek: Ἰωνία or Ἰωνίη) is an ancient region of central coastal Anatolia in present-day Turkey, the region nearest İzmir, which was historically Smyrna.

49. Hi Joel,
    You said, “You didn’t answer my question. Why would you interpret Ezekiel 38-39 or any other end time prophecy which uses ancient names as thus being historical? This would seem to be inconsistent.”

    I would only interpret a prophecy according to the context and the prophetic indicators of the text. I don’t interpret the whole of Daniel 8 as historical but to be honest I am not sure how the vision moves from being historical to futuristically fulfilled in the last days – the Ram with 2 horns (historical) then Javan as Greece and the prominent horn as Alexander the Great (historical. I was of the mind that as there is a gap in the 70 weeks that possibly there is a gap between the unicorn horn of the goat and the 4 horns that produce the little horn or the AntiChrist as futuristic.

    My main point of reference is what Jesus teaches in Matt. 24. The Abomination that makes Desolate is placed in the future by the Lord… so to say the little horn is Antiochus in the past would be to differ with Jesus himself. That is folly. I did find a map that shows Japheth covering all of Greece and Turkey. So I am beginning to understand how you equate Javan with Turkey. Here is a link to the map I found on Wiki.https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Noahsworld_map_Version2.png#/media/File:Noahsworld_map_Version2.png

    Anyway I hope that answers your question.

50. So what within the context of Daniel tells you the prophecy is historical? I ask this in light of Gabriel’s three time repeated statement that the vision concerns the time of the end. As I said, I allow for a bleeding from the historical into the last days, the problem is that is not what Gabriel says.

    As for Yavan, again, a more involved study of the historical development of the word will show that it began as a reference to Western Anatolia / Turkey. Then it went on to become used of greater Greece, which included the whole Aegean region, as your map shows. Later it was used of all of Alexander’s Empire, including the whole Middle East. The meaning of words develops and change over time. My point is that in Daniel’s day, when the prophecy was given, it was used in the most primitive of these options. It would have been understood in Daniel’s day as western Anatolia.

51. There seems to be a coalition between the vision in Daniel 8 and Daniel 9 and Gabriel’s own wording.

    “The shaggy goat represents the kingdom of Greece, and the large horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
    22 “The broken horn and the four horns that arose in its place represent four kingdoms which will arise from his nation, although not with his power.
    23 “In the latter period of their rule,
    When the transgressors have run their course,
    A king will arise,

    New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. (1995). (Da 8:21–23). La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

    In verse 23 Gabriel seems to separate the initial rule of Javan (Historically Greece) with the “latter period” of their rule. Then it says “When the transgressors have run their course” then the king (AntiChrist) will arise. That sounds awfully familiar:

    Daniel 9 “Seventy aweeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression…”

    verse 26 is key – “Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

    New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. (1995). (Da 9:26). La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

    The mention of the latter rule and the transgression ending in Daniel 8 seems to be in lockstep with the Scripture in Daniel 9. The portion prior to Daniel 8 in verse 22 of Gabriel’s interpretation seems to be speaking specifically of Medo-Persia and the Grecian Empire under Alexander. Now I am open to the bleeding over as you are and the foreshadowing of these same regions repeating the Ram and Goat collision in the last days as a stamp on the prophecy, but I am not convinced as of yet that it is strictly futuristic.

52. Also note that in Daniel 8 in the vision of the Goat there are 2 prominent kings that arise according to Gabriel. The first king is the prominent horn of the goat then another king that arises from one of the four horns that replaces the first king.

    If this vision is strictly future… who is the first king of the Goat? Are you saying that could be Erdogan?

53. Its possible that Erdogan is indeed the “first king of Javan.” It should be noted that if this is historical, Alexander was the 27th king of Macedonia.

54. True… Alexander was not the first king of Greece… but he was the first of his kind that created an empire and is distinct from any prior rulers of Greece.

    Returning to my earlier point. I don’t see the current Iran and Kurds as equating to this:
    3 As I looked up, I saw a ram with two long horns standing beside the river.* One of the horns was longer than the other, even though it had grown later than the other one. 4 The ram butted everything out of his way to the west, to the north, and to the south, and no one could stand against him or help his victims. He did as he pleased and became very great.

    Tyndale House Publishers. (2013). Holy Bible: New Living Translation (Da 8:3–4). Carol Stream, IL: Tyndale House Publishers.

    How does that describe the Iran today or in the near future? How does this describe the Kurds? This is just as much a part of the prophecy as Javan is.

55. Again, this is not what the text says. It does not say the first unique kind of king. It simply says the first king. One must admit that between Alexander or Erdogan, Erdogan actually may be a better fit. Perhaps not. Time will tell.

    As to your second objection, there is nothing problematic here that I can see, or foresee.

56. Joel thank you very much for putting yourself out here like this. I respect what you are doing. God Bless you young brother… you have an ear to hear. I will be praying for you and all your partners in ministry. I don’t have a clue and I haven’t study the prophetic in years. Your books and your theories kind of sparked an old fire I had years ago. But what you have accomplished in just 10 years is remarkable. Take Care and again you are in my prayers.

    -Joseph

57. Thank you. Many Blessings to you!

58. Conversely in regard to Alexander and the “first king” of the goat in the vision. The reference to the first king in context is specific to the vision, not that of the entire history of Greece. In sequence – first king of the ones mentioned in the vision>> Goat horn (Alexander), 4 horns (four kings subsequent to Alexander) and then the little horn (Antichrist). That is five kings. Alexander being the first of the visions five successive kings.

    In regard to Media & Persia – the Ram w/2 Horns (two prominent kings). Neither the Iranians nor the Kurds of our day, at this point anyway, seem to fit the description of a dual kingdom that butts everything “out of its way” to the west, north, and south of them or “did as he pleased” or “became great”. The Iranians could possibly fit this description but that would be a stretch. The Kurds don’t fit the description at all. ISIS fits the description of the 2 horned (Iraq & Syria) Ram far better than Iran/Kurds at this point don’t you think?

    The 2 horned Ram comes first in the vision and then the Goat. We need to see Iran and Iraq (Kurds) somehow unify and become a significant force in the Middle East before Erdogan comes to power as the Goat who moves swiftly to take them out and trample them.

    UNLESS much of the first part of the vision IS HISTORICAL and the latter part of the 4 king reign, marks the futuristic element of the vision. From that 4 prong kingdom (Turkey, Iran, Iraq,Kurdistan) arises the little horn or a 5th king.

    My .02 cents

59. Correction – 6 kings, Goat uni-horn, 4 subsequent horns, little horn.

60. Joseph,

    Upon what do you make the claim that Alexander is merely the first king of the vision? The text simply says, the first king of Yavan. I think you are making an assumption to shoe-horn the traditional view. Not saying it is not possible, just that it is not what the text seems to indicate.

    Blessings!

61. Hi Joel,

    I am actually coming to my conclusion based on the context of the vision. The horn is specifically that of the Goat. The Goat is a specific character that comes on the scene at a specific time AFTER the Ram. If the text was talking about previous kings of Greece it might have put the Goat prior to the Ram. It doesn’t. The Ram is the Medo-Persians… correct? Or at least the regions of Media and Persia. Is Erdogan the first king of the regions of Turkey? I believe the Ottoman Empire was ruled by sultans for many years. So if we are talking about regions vs. bloodlines either way, whether historical or futuristic the Goat being specific to the vision has to be taken by either view. Like you I am not dogmatic… but the vast majority of historical and biblical commentaries almost unanimously say that even the Ionians were Greek tribal people. For instance here in Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionia

    That being the case doesn’t actually negate your view that Javan will produce a little horn in the last days. It establishes it actually… which is astonishing. The only thing that is not clear is if any part of the vision is historical. Even you in your Mid-East Beast book says it is Greece. Which I took as you advancing your views after you wrote the book. I think that is a good thing… because the minute any one of us thinks we have it all figured out we are trouble.

62. Joel,
    Blessings from God to you , your family and ministry in the name of Jesus Christ. Please Indulge me a little. I would like to get your opinion on something.
    I like to look for landmarks when trying to orient myself in the very challenging terrain of prophecy.

    So here is my question. The end time flood mentioned in Daniel and Revelation; figurative or wet ?

    Your best understanding please..
    Thanks,
    Marcus

63. Scripture repeatedly uses figurative language of water, the sea, the abyss, floods to refer to the activity of Satan, most often militarily. The Same God who hovered over the chaotic deep abyss in the beginning, will well Satan, the dragon, sea serpent’s final efforts to destroy God’s covenant people militarily.

64. Joel,
    Thank you
    Marcus

65. Joel what do you think of the possibility that the Spirit of antichrist started working with President Obama? A sort of copycat John the Baptist. I say this because much of his foreign policy set the stage for what we have now and seems to be a setup kingdom for the coming “little horn”.