53 Responses

1. Two weeks ago I was watching a prophecy teacher out of Hawaii that again said that he does not see how the Israel will accept an Islamic Messiah. This a very good argument. But in knowing Rabbinic and various Jewish writings, from what I understand that Jews don’t necessary look toward one messiah and believe that this term to any leader that inspires, encourages, and provides safety for Jews. It got me to thinking as to why so many don’t follow the idea of an Islamic AC. Your thoughts on this?

2. Gary,

   This is a terrible argument. The Bible no where says the Jews will accept the Antichrist. It says they will enter into a covenant with him. The Jews have entered into covenants with Arabs or other Muslims numerous times. There’s nothing unusual about this at all.

3. Joel,

   I see the Jews accepting the antichrist as their messiah in John 5:43. I’m certainly not dogmatic on this issue, but this verse does draw a picture of acceptance, by the Jewish people, of a Christ other than Jesus. Your thoughts very much respected and appreciated.

   Warm Regards, Mark Daniel

4. I was under the impression that John 5:43 points to the AC. “I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.” What do you think?

5. The text says nothing about the Antichrist. When the false Messiah Bar Kochba came in the 2nd century, the whole nation received him.

6. Joel,

   I’m sorry to hear there were some issues with the debate, but I’m glad your overall impression was positive. By way of a boost, I’d like to thank you for your work in this field, and your commitment not just to exegesis but to the Great Commission. Your passion and sincerity always come across in the work you do. My mentor pointed me in your direction years ago when I began to study eschatology (he was struck by your early interview with Adnan Oktar). I’ve followed you ever since, and your work (along with Walid Shoebat’s) was instrumental in getting me to change paradigm with respect to end times prophecy. I also appreciate your willingness to stay open-minded on a number of non-essentials. Like Michael Heiser, I do feel there are some areas in the prophetic that aren’t absolutely straightforward: one’s interpretation of those passages is dependent on certain presuppositions.

   Best wishes,
   Nick

7. Hi Joel!

   Congratulations on your 50th UNDERGROUND! (in my country England, that’s known as a “half century!” from the national game of cricket!)

   Thank you for such an informed episode. From Gulen to Erdogan…wow! What a change in Turkey and that quote…”democracy is like a streetcar you use it to get where you need to get…and then you get off!”
   Sounds like a certain Herr Hitler in the 1930s, and he was quite popular with people, because he was good for the economy! (but, oh what he became.)
   Thanks also for the update on the Tommy Ice debate, really look forward to hearing that!

   It was my great privilege to visit Israel for the first time in my life, during this July gone…a wonderful time. I was sharing with brothers and sisters that I met about your book MIDEAST BEAST and the case for an Islamic Antichrist, even within some in the Messianic Body…had some good discussions. I pray that more and more believers wake up to the challenge of Islam, during this climax to world history.
   I also here in England share your writings with friends within my church and outside the church…your teachings have been so inspiring to me…I’m a guy in his mid 30’s hungry for Truth!

   I know you have an upcoming book on MYSTERY BABYLON coming out soon, which I’m really looking forward to…
   On the theme of Revelation, I was wondering if you had a “take” on the 144,000…?
   I have to say I haven’t heard a really good talk on that subject at all, and for that matter the 2 Witnesses that are killed and then come back to life…
   I vaguely remember hearing dear Derek Prince, a wonderful Bible teacher of yesteryear talk about it, and I think he mentioned that he believed they are Jewish believers who are used during the Great Tribulation/Jacob’s Trouble to evangelise their brethren…
   is this passage in scripture just too much of a mystery to know…at this point at least?

   Bless you Joel, and your family!

   Paul (United Kingdom- England)

8. Yep! Totally agree with your send off! Our family is preparing to go to the unreached and unengaged people with the gospel. We should be sending out as many people as possible. I love seeing God’s story unfold! It should be compelling us to go!

9. Joel,
   All i can say is that Bar Kochba is still wildly popular compared to Jesus in modern Judaism. There’s also no reason to think the Lord’s words have somehow ran out of gas. Multiple fulfillment of prophecy is not unheard of.
   Also the Hebrew word berit ( translated as covenant in Daniel ) generally suggests a far greater level of devotion and gravity than a mere agreement.

10. Excellent, been waiting for this one. So thankful for your great teachings Joel!

11. My point is that it is an assumption to say this passage is speaking of the Antichrist. It doesn’t say that. When folks use it to say the Antichrist must be a false Jewish Messiah, they are then violating other very relevant passages such as Daniel 8 and 11, which show the Antichrist will be a gentile ruler.

12. Hi Paul,

    Thanks for your encouragement and support. It means a lot. I will be in Scotland and Northern England here in a few weeks. Looking forward to it.

    Bless you!

13. Thanks Nick. Yes, it weird to think that first interview with Oktar was in 2009, seven years ago. Bless you brother!

14. I know my inquiry had a lot of presuppositions with it (pre-trib,etc.), but the argument for a Euro and maybe partly Jewish AC was being presented that Israel would never accept an Islamic AC. When the prophecy teacher brought it up, I remembered this as to this popular position in the eighties.

15. Joel,
    I wish i could attach a picture taken today of my wife sitting with Turkish ladies in a mountainous village. Just today she got to pray for 8 different ladies and gave out numerous “More than Dreams” videos. In spite of the political troubles, there are hungry hearts. Please pray for Becky as she goes from village to village.

16. Oh that’s such a blessing to hear Joe. Still one of my favorite places in all the world.

17. Joel,
    The Sanhedrin accepted the gentile Caesar as their ruler over the very Jewish Jesus.
    It is not necessary that the AC be Jewish to be acceptable.

18. Thanks Joel, good history and clear analysis. However, what are your sources for the CIA link to Gulen? You made this linkage as a statement of fact and it will probably be massively used to validate conspiracy theories in Turkey. I have found a lot of conspiracy-related materiel related to this argument with poor logical cases to make this assertion. I could understand verbiage that says “there are allegations” to describe the situation. From where do you draw information to support your definitive conclusion?

19. Hi Dave,

    These claims have been made by a few former CIA agents. Graham Fuller and Sibel Edmonds.

    When Gulen came to the states, his main sponsor was a CIA higher up. I understand that anytime one mentions the CIA it sounds like a conspiracy theory, but this is pretty straight forward. Essentially this is the fall out of the US cold war with the Soviets. We were funding Gulen (as was the Saudis) to expand his influence throughout Central Asia (the former Soviet “istans”) in our covert ops against Russia. It’s well documented that we funded the Taliban during the same period.

    

20. Marcus,

    Of course. Isaiah even informs us that the Jews will “rely on” the Antichrist. (Isaiah 20:10) But what many who object to an Islamic Antichrist mean when they say the Jews would never “accept” him is specifically as their Messiah. My point is that the Bible never says the will accept the Antichrist as their Messiah. They will rely on him for protection. The agreement will likely be some sort of security alliance, as this was the pattern throughout Isaiah, where he appeals to Judah never to trust in the protection of Egypt. (Isaiah 28) In terms however of making agreement with Arabs, and thus “accepting” them, Israel did this with Arafat and were all shocked when he turned out to have been practicing deception after the model of “the treaty of hudaybiyah.” So the idea that the Jews will never make a deal with a Muslims is simple historical ignorance on the part of some.

    Bless ya

21. Blessing to you & family. Awesome how you approach to the debate with Mr. Ice. BTW, you are not trying to be one of the Witness as mentioned in the book of Revelation are you ?

    I was surprised about this Holy Serpent of Jews book, http://www.texemarrs.com/ but I can relate how Turkey will have peace agreement with Israel so that the third Temple can be built without war. Considering the devil also using trinity, what do you think on this issue Joel.

22. I’m not at all a fan of Texe Marrs.

23. Sorry Joel, we’ll have to agree to disagree on the proof of a CIA conspiracy.
    1. Graham Fuller left the CIA in 1988 and 18 years later wrote an endorsement letter for Gulen in 2006. Fuller was obviously interested in Islam giving the books he has written. That does not mean he isn’t a fool for believing what he thinks about Gulen (and apparently still believes in a recent article expressing support).
    2. Sibel Edmonds worked for the FBI for six months as a translator from September 2001 until March 2002. From this she apparently knows about a 9-11 coverup; CIA plots to take over Central Asia; how Gulen came into the country; a $500,000 Turkish bribe to withdrawal support for the Turkish Armenian Genocide resolution; and, NATO planes ferrying Ayman al-Zawahiri to Central Asia and the Balkans (Operation Gladio B). Something just does not add up, but these events sure tickle the ears for those looking for conspiracies.

24. And now Turkey is sending tanks into Syria…wow!

25. Hi Dave,

    I appreciate that you’ve done some reading on the internet since this morning and now have clarity on all of this. You’ve only touched on a few of the issues related to this matter however. That said, I do appreciate your hesitancy to believe “conspiracy theories,” as I am also a skeptic and almost never support such. Of course, you would have to be able to have an alternative explanation as to how Gulen acquired roughly $25 billion dollars and managed to create such an impressive organization. The notion that the CIA has supported oppositional groups such as the Taliban in the early years as a buffer against the Soviets is far from a conspiracy theory. The notion that we supported and propped up Saddam Hussein and then went to war with him is also far from a conspiracy theory. Likewise the idea that we have been supporting “the Turkish model” for the past twenty years is far from a conspiracy theory. These are things I have been tracking diligently for the past fifteen years. To be clear, this is not to cast the US military in a negative light. Not at all. Short-sighted perhaps, but not certainly evil.

26. Thanks for the blessing Joel.

27. Thanks, Joel, for the history and analysis. It’s really very enlightening.

    Israel, of course, just signed a major agreement with Turkey, primarily for economic and security reasons, despite Erdogan being arrogant towards Israel, and a prime supporter of Hamas, which also got elected democratically before getting off the streetcar.

    As long as it’s “the economy, Stupid”, that generates and motivates people and governments, lawlessness will continue to increase. There is no morality or principled convictions of right and wrong. It is serving mammon rather than serving God.

28. This is great Joel. Very informative. Your historical recall is helpful and impressive.

29. Joel you are such a blessing to the believers. You are also causing quite a stir in the prophetic world. Every where I look there is a comment on your book many call it a sequel. Thank you for all the hard work. Alice

30. Joel, thank you again and again for the very informative, amazing history and insight of your #50 Underground broadcast. I love all your Underground podcasts but number 50 was beyond excellent in gaining an understanding of the current situation and history of turkey.. For the last 20 years I’ve been focused on China missions but it seems as though my focus is being switched more to the middle east so I’m devouring your books, DVDs etc as I undertake to educate myself with the leading of the Holy Spirit. Thanks for what you do and for your voice to the Body of Christ on this very important topic.

    Blessings,

    Donna Eaton

31. Joel

    I am the co-writer on a book that will have a new chapter analyzing Constantinople and Biblical prophecy. I have cited your wonderful work in the chapter. Enjoy!

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/11frJbOPo8ySAK_qPHdYROrzDMGelNny2Kg3SHKSoA0U/edit?usp=sharing

32. Just to follow up on this Joel. I was remembering of radio shows in the eighties talking about the arrival of the maitreya and how they thought that the maitreya would fulfill the role of the AC. Of course, nothing of Islam was ever discussed.

33. Thanks so much Donna! Thanks for serving the Lord in missions. Blessings to you!

34. Howard,

    Exactly. That exact phrase popped in my head when I was talking. In Turkey, the prosperity however is more than just the economy, it is also a sense of Turkish pride that Erdogan is championing. The successful economy and the success of Turkey in general are integrally linked.

35. Just wanted to thank you for all your hard work. You are not only well educated on what you are teaching us, but you do it so gracefully and humbly. It’s a rare finding to get somebody who knows his stuff and is graceful and humble.

36. Yea, Texe Mars is a Anti-Jewish conspiracy nut that fails to any thorough research on his sources. Tends to be a revisionist historian concerning Jews, ignoring their persecution.

37. Hi Joel,

    I’m learning a lot with your videos, and this Islamic Antichrist interpretation shines a whole new light into the prophecies.
    Currently I’m reading The Islamic Antichrist, through which I got acquainted with your work, and I only want to ask what is your take on the harlot in Rev 17. If you have already written about that somewhere.
    I considered myself an amillenialist, but now I’m kinda shifting my view, analysing your points through the Scripture.
    Greetings from Brazil, and keep the good work with the help of the Holy Spirit.

38. Hi Heron,

    I have a book about the Harlot Babylon that will be released in February. Here is a good very simplified case for Premillennialism:

    https://joelstrumpet.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Until-I-Make-Your-Enemies-a-Footstool-Version-1.pdf

    Blessings!

39. Joel, Happen to see FFOZ do a review of your book When a Jew Rules the World in their latest Messiah journal quarterly today. Very good review. They commend your book as a great resource against replacement theology!

40. We really got so much out of this history lesson!! thank you. It helps us understand the present situation much better as well as understand how Turkey is at the center of so much of the end time prophecies.

41. Excellent. This is the first I’ve heard of it.

42. I think you’d be hard pressed to find many non-Messianics who both simultaneously believe in 1) the 1000 year earthly reign of Messiah and 2) us remaining on the earth with Him, primarily because the Biblical prophets are so clear that the Torah will go forth from Zion, and those on the earth will be participating in the temple sacrifices and other Torah observance.

    John Darby was so horrified by the idea of Christians under grace coming under that kind of lifestyle and faith, that he had to make up a solution to it – the rapture the spiritually minded church up to Heaven, with the unspiritual Jews left behind on the earth to come under the law.

    I think this is the perfect example of how one’s views about the present effects one’s views about the future. If you think the Torah is a wretched curse, you wouldn’t want to live in a kingdom where that’s the law of the kingdom, but Paul said it’s good provided it is carried out correctly and that it’s holy and good.

    One thing I find really refreshing about you Joel is that even if you think we shouldn’t be concerned with Torah observance in the present age, you acknowledge, like Darby did, that it will be part of millennial life. The difference between him and you is, instead of being offended at the testimony of the Biblical prophets, you humbly bow down before God and say, I don’t know exactly how the Messiah will handle the law at His return, but I trust Him, and however He sees fit to implement it will be fine with me.

    The difference between Darby and yourself is you don’t try and escape the Biblical testimony with a false theology, but you have faith in God regardless how it looks to your understanding.

    If only all Christians were like that we wouldn’t have this ethereal ghostly doctrine of floating on clouds just to get away from the Jewish king with His holy commandments in Jerusalem.

43. This issue of Torah in the millennium is a challenge for evangelicals who see it only as a curse, while it is also a challenge for many Hebrew Roots folks (some of whom can border on an idolization of Torah) and more mainstream Messianics who lean toward seeing Torah as having an ongoing relationship to all believers, both Jew and Gentile (such as perhaps First Fruits of Zion, etc.). I say it is a challenge for both because when we read about the Torah practiced in the Millennium, there are some clear changes. Ezekiel for example lists different Passover sacrifices from those listed in Numbers. There seem to be changes in the manner in which Sukkoth is celebrated. A careful analysis shows that there are several others matters that will be changed. So this issue is a tough one for everyone. Perhaps more for non-Messianic evangelicals, but tough for all none the less. My perspective is that most believers who are resurrected may very well function not in “heaven” as Darby claimed, but moreso as rulers who may not necessarily be seen by those on the earth, though perhaps we will come and go, not unlike Jesus did after His resurrection but before the ascension. We would replace the principalities of this age so to speak. There are many mysteries now, but as I always emphasize, He will make all things clear then. Amen to bowing before the Lord in acknowledgment that we do not have it all figured out.

44. Hey Joel!

    After reading your exchange with David Roberts regarding living in the millennium kingdom, I did an independent study of the millennium temple itself to help me better understand how it will function within the physical rule of Chris last summer. I found that helpful, though did not answer everything because God in his sovereignty has chosen to not yet reveal all of his plans. I was so mesmerized by what I found that I ended up doing a Power Point presentation on my study efforts with the hopes of some day presenting it in a small group for those interested in the millennial temple and how both relate to the temples built previously and what it could mean for those at that time whether glorified saints or earthly inhabitants.

    I am so thankful that I did because I got to see for myself when I toured with you on our Israel trip what I studied regarding the Temple remains and verify for myself that what I studied was actually possible. Unfortunately, we did not get to take a close up look at the Dome of the Spirits, but I stepped away from our group and took a good look and verified what I’d studied and I became satisfied with the information I wanted. Unfortunately, I think the muslim police had already escorted you off the temple plaza b/o your camera equipment or I would have asked you about it. I do wish we would have had more time to look around at the Temple plaza. Perhaps I will have another chance someday.

    But I do recommend anyone who wants to understand more about the millennium to do a study on the millennium temple as a good place to start. As God began his program with Torah, and then changed it with the resurrection of Jesus, God will again change the program once more at the establishment of the millennium kingdom.

    Blessings!

45. “good4u” said “As God began his program with Torah, and then changed it with the resurrection of Jesus, God will again change the program once more at the establishment of the millennium kingdom.”

    There is another view – continuity, that God doesn’t contradict Himself and send confusing revelations like Mohammed’s Allah who constantly abrogates his previous commandments, that the Acts 21 original personal disciples of the Lord Yeshua got it right and that God’s ways are consistent from after the resurrection until heaven and earth pass away and the jots and tittles of Torah pass away with them and there’s a new heaven and new earth with no temple, just Yeshua tabernacling with us.

    In my personal opinion a consistent theology that doesn’t require mental summersaults, but is cohesive and flows naturally makes the most sense, just like a Middle Eastern Antichrist does compared with John Kerry being the Antichrist.

    That’s respectfully the truth as I see it, Shalom.

46. The Torah was for a specific time, people, and place. For example, Acts 15 is crystal clear that it is not commanded for Gentiles.

47. I am in agreement with Joel and David Roberts, I have no clue what you just said.

    Blessings!

48. Brother Joel, I totally agree that the Torah is not required “in order to be saved” for “the Gentiles turning towards Christ” which is the language used in Acts 15 and the context we’ve been given.

    I’d say one has to first deal with the issue of the ongoing relationship of the Torah to the New Covenant believing Jew before one can deal with its relationship to those from the nations.

    I remember one talk you did about how our view of eschatology should be based on the words of the master Yeshua, especially Matthew 24, that it’s His words that provide the framework and overview which we should place all other eschatological passages into. In other words, we don’t start with Revelation or some obscure passages, but Yeshua first and foremost, then everything should be harmonised with His words. I believe in the same approach with all things, including the Torah.

    Yeshua said a great deal regarding it, like those who teach and do even the least commandments in the Torah and prophets will be great in the kingdom. Do we understand that principle as applying even today?
    (Matthew 5:18-19)

    Some (not you) will try and say everything Jesus said in the gospels doesn’t apply to New Covenant believers because it was only said to those under the law.

    When the Messiah gives us practical guidance for our daily lives and then someone comes and wants to rationalise their way out of having any responsibility to His words, I find it very convenient to say the least.

    Yeshua spoke of those religious people who make the word of God of “no effect” through their religious tradition. (Mark 7:13)

    My understanding of Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 11:19-20, 36:26-27 is that instead of religious zealots forcing others to keep the Torah in a carnal fleshly way honoring God with their lips, while their hearts are far from Him, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men (which some Hebraic Roots folk sadly do), that God Himself would change our hearts and write His law in our gut by His Holy Spirit. Romans 7:22, Psalm 40:8

    New Covenant is when drug users, prostitutes and hypocritical religious people become humble new creations in Messiah Yeshua.

    I would just say that the work of the Holy Spirit isn’t like God writing words on our living room walls, it’s often that still small voice within, and I would submit that God’s still small voice often gets drowned out by the loud voices of denominational politics.

    You would agree that the Holy Spirit is trying to pull on the heart strings of all believers about God’s call and plan for Israel, would you not? Yet the loud voices of men, “occupation” “apartheid” and the like and the stubborn human heart that grieves the Holy Spirit mean that His work often only goes as far as we’re willing to let Him have authority over our lives.

    I believe the Holy Spirit has an easier time fulfilling Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 11:19-20, 36:26-27 in a Messianic congregation than in a Church which is very cold towards those aspects of God’s word.

    Anyway, it’s a personal thing and it’s between yourself and God, and I know I’m not finished myself, and you’re totally right about some of the ugliness that exists out there in the Hebraic Roots crowd, those who write off the entire Christian Church, their brothers and sisters! It’s an Antichrist spirit to deny those people who are in covenant relationship with God. I expect to see Catholics, Orthodoxs and all manner of Protestants in the kingdom of God, and not all Messianics will make it in, those who hate their brother who they have seen as are on very dangerous ground indeed.

    Sorry this post was so long, but I didn’t want you to misunderstand my position. Shalom and blessings in our Lord Yeshua.

49. Re; The conversation between Joel, David Roberts and Good4you.

    We all know the early disciples had many earnest discussions on this very subject as gentiles were being introduced into the early church.

    I find in completely understandable that similar problems arise when the natural branches are being grafted back into the nourishing root.

    You all three seem to have valid points.

    I would just like to add one thought.

    The Torah always was a shadow of the man Christ Jesus’ fulfillment of it.

    He was slain before the foundation of the world.

    The Torah was always meant to establish the Divine Kingship Of Jesus by excluding all others from justification through it.Not to provide that salvation itself.

    Grace is humbling.

    When one uses the Torah lawfully it will produce the same humility that was shown by Jesus. It will also cause one to bow the knee to the only Jew who could ever really kept it.

    All should honor Jesus as they believe they are called and let others do the same.

    I hope that is not to preachy

50. Has anyone noticed that Erdogan rise to power is hauntingly similar to Hitler rise in Germany?
    Forgive me if someone already made this comment, I didn’t read all the comments.

51. Re: Steve Radanovich’s comment:

    Of course, many have had the same thought. Also, similarities between the Spanish civil war and the present situation in Syria are oddly unnerving.
    Something that troubles me even more, is the budding movement to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem becomes more and more mainstream every day.
    There is an an active search (through DNA research) for descendants of King David , with the ultimate goal of restoring his monarchy.
    I’m sure some will object that I even mention these facts but they are facts none the less.
    Ten years ago Joel’s predictions about today’s Turkey were probably met with incredulity as well.
    Dictatorships can spring up anywhere fanatics are willing to fertilize the soil with other peoples blood and as Solomon says: Ecclesiastes 1:9

    From a Christian perspective we know we already have The Temple of God and The Son of David, in Christ Jesus.
    But the Bible says in Isaiah 42:19

52. I was looking at the Roman empire antichrist for years. Thanks for pointing me in a new direction that makes so much sense. Always looking, always learning should be a must for every born again Christian today. The world is changing by the minute and being prepared physically and spiritually is more revelant each day. Thank you for your research and looking forward to future revelations.

53. The Bible says the length of the tribulation will be seven years:

    “Daniel 9:27
    And he shall enter into a strong and firm covenant with the many for one week [seven years]. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and offering to cease [for the remaining three and one-half years]; and upon the wing or pinnacle of abominations [shall come] one who makes desolate, until the full determined end is poured out on the desolator.”

    I just discovered shocking proof that tends to show that the Antichrist probably is or will be Islamic. Most Christian prophecy experts believe Daniel’s prophecy sets off the Tribulation, and is initiated with a 7-year peace treaty with Israel.

    This seven-year treaty the Antichrist signs with Israel “starts the clock ticking” on the seven-year Tribulation. For many years, those who believe that the European Union will be the Antichrist have struggled with the 7-year time limit of the peace treaty, since EU treaties are always……ALWAYS….. permanent and in perpetuity. The EU has NEVER signed a treaty for just seven years. EVER!

    Under Islamic Law, a “Hudna” or Truce can last a MAXIMUM of Ten Years, and preferably less than that. The Iranian nuclear deal has been widely-criticized because it is only for 10 years, upon which time Iran can resume Nuclear development. It comports with Hudna and Islamic law, though:

    “The Shafi`i school of jurisprudence set the limit of the hudna at 10 years, following the original stated duration of the Treaty of Hudaybiyya. If the treaty does not specify the time limit, it is considered invalid.”
    http://www.passia.org/meetings/2006/Hudna.htm