Report: Debate With Tommy Ice

For those who have been anticipating my debate with Dr. Tommy Ice, briefly, it went very very well. The reports from those who were able to attend all seemed very positive. It was filmed, and Southwest Radio Ministries will make it available in a few weeks. We will keep you updated. Thanks to everyone who prayed for an edifying and successful event.

Many Blessings!
Joel

60 Comments
  • Greg Maxwell
    Posted at 12:25h, 02 August

    I’ll be praying! Let’s all cover this event in prayer. The debate topic is so important and the truth needs to go out with clarity.

  • Marcus Maddox
    Posted at 16:28h, 02 August

    Lord . Let the truth come out in this event. We ask in Jesus name and thank you for nothing but truth coming out in this event !

  • Jeff Marshall
    Posted at 18:00h, 02 August

    Definitely will be praying for you, Mr. Ice, the whole debate & those listening/watching.
    God Bless!
    Jeff

  • Christine
    Posted at 22:53h, 02 August

    Praying! Looking forward to watching too!

  • Troy
    Posted at 00:20h, 03 August

    Will be praying.. looking forward to hearing him get on his knees and repent of leading so many people astray. After that I hope he will help promote your ministry and drop the “any moment” lie also. That is how I am praying. Truth must be a priority now… if not now .. when?

  • Michael A
    Posted at 03:31h, 04 August

    I recently moved to Oklahoma city, and will be in attendance. I’ve been wanting to make one of your events for some time. I’m really looking forward to it.

  • Joel
    Posted at 13:03h, 04 August

    Awesome. Be sure to say hello.

  • Jesus Catala
    Posted at 20:19h, 04 August

    From the Bronx, N.Y. we pray that multiplicity of multitudedness millions come to know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior as a result of the meeting!

  • Jon LaPuzza
    Posted at 23:29h, 04 August

    Just sat through the first day of this conference. Can’t wait until tomorrow. Looking forward to seeing, hearing, and meeting you!

  • jean dean
    Posted at 03:40h, 05 August

    Praying over this event. Praying for God to download His strength, knowledge, wisdom, and understanding of things to you, Joel, as He uses “you” to bring forth His Truth!

    I believe it is God’s heart to use this debate to “lasso,” if you will, Brother Ice, and his followers, and bring them into reality. Stubborn “pride” has kept Dr. Ice (and others) from owning up to the fact that they are truly “mistaken” (wrong) about things, as they continue to believe, and spread, false facts and lies … dangerous lies!

    May God use you, Joel, to “snap” them out of it, and wake them up! It may not happen all at once, but God will “get to them,” count on it!

    Blessings to you as He places you in His safe keeping, now and forevermore! -jd

  • Troy
    Posted at 09:43h, 05 August

    Prayed for you this morning hope last night went well… Don’t forget to tell them about the “Bible” being centered on the Middle East! I had to say that Joel…!!! Will be praying for you all day.. God bless you and may He sustain you.. and Amen to what Jean Dean said!

  • Tamaira
    Posted at 15:02h, 05 August

    Praying for your words to speak into the hearts of everyone listening. Praying for Mr. Ice to have an epiphany and share this revelation. Praying it’s a fruitful debate because there seems to be no time to spare these days.

  • Jeff Marshall
    Posted at 05:21h, 06 August

    Praise God. I’m sure you did great brother. Would definitely be interested in checking it out

  • Bo Edmonds
    Posted at 14:03h, 06 August

    Glad to hear the good report Joel. I am really looking forward to seeing it. Thank you for the update. I appreciate you and your loving spirit. Blessings to you my brother!

  • Troy
    Posted at 20:46h, 06 August

    That look in your eyes… what is going through your head? God only knows…!!!! My guess is “Yes, that is a very good point Dr. Ice” if only someone would have told me that before I wrote Mid East Beast!..

    Just kidding with you.. I am very, very glad you took the time to do this.. can’t wait to listen to the debate.

  • Michael P
    Posted at 21:32h, 06 August

    Hey Joel, it was great to meet you. It was a good debate and I think somewhat fruitful. I think you presented your case very well. It got a little heated at times. Trying to be objective, I do think you did much better explaining your position about the the antichrist being Islam vs. a revived Roman empire. Its definitely interesting. Btw, love your humor. Anyway, it was a real pleasure to meet you. Looking forward to your next book (whatever it might be).

  • Obed
    Posted at 02:08h, 07 August

    Awesome!!! That’s great to hear. Looking forward to watching it. Thank you for all you work brother it’s definitely a blessing to the church even though at this time many don’t recognize it, in due time they will.

  • good4u
    Posted at 02:33h, 07 August

    So glad for you, Joel! It appears it is going well and progress is being made. We are all praying for you and rooting for you on the other side of the computer screen! LOL!

    Blessings!

  • donal
    Posted at 05:49h, 08 August

    I really want to puke hearing european beast arguments. I have debate several times with 7th day adventis regarding this topic and their views totally contradict with history. i hope you can post your debate on Youtube.

  • Michael A in OKC
    Posted at 02:57h, 09 August

    Joel took a show of hands at the beginning of the debate and about 40-50% of the audience was leaning towards the Islamic Antichrist side. As for the debate it went very well, I think the most telling aspect of the debate was the fact that Dr. Ice admitted that he hadn’t even bothered to read Joel’s book “Mideast Beast.” Both sides stuck to their usual points, but it was obvious Dr Ice was unfamiliar with many of the basic tenants of Joel’s argument. In the end Joel emphasized the need for the IAT not to be heedlessly dismissed, and to be taken seriously. I highly recommend everyone watch it when it becomes available. On a personal note, I also wanted to say thank you to Joel for taking the time to talk with me. The whole conference was a great experience, and I can’t wait to do it again.

  • David Roberts
    Posted at 09:34h, 09 August

    I’m very glad to hear this went well.

    Can’t wait to see the video!

  • David Roberts
    Posted at 09:37h, 09 August

    I’ve just gotta that photo cracks me up.

    It looks like Dr. Tommy Ice is trying to teach you martial arts.

  • Michael P
    Posted at 00:32h, 10 August

    To Michael A in OKC,I’d love to email you. I am looking for a church in OKC and thought you might recommend one. here is my email: michael underscore palmer @ cox.net Thanks

  • Gary
    Posted at 02:12h, 10 August

    … he is illustrating his debate strategy as being a “left hook” at times.

  • Joel
    Posted at 02:27h, 10 August

    It was good to connect Michael. Enjoyed meeting you as well. On a funny note, I left all my shirts in the hotel closet. (They are on their way home.)

  • Howard
    Posted at 13:27h, 10 August

    It’s interesting that on Tommy Ice’s website there is no mention of the debate, before or after.

  • Joel
    Posted at 15:49h, 10 August

    That is interesting. I suppose he will wait until he analyzes the final video to decide if he wishes to share it. I’m doubtful he will. He seemed mystified that I pointed out the fact that he had not even read my book Mideast Beast: The Scriptural Case for an Islamic Antichrist. In his mind, having read one of my books was sufficient. The book he read however is by no means a Scriptural case for an Islamic Antichrist but is simply a comparative analysis of biblical eschatology and Islam. Yet he appeared on various radio programs and spoke in churches and said I use almost no Bible to make my arguments whatsoever. This is simply dishonest on his part and I think he was upset that I called him out on this.

    Technically, I am a bit disappointed in that there were some significant audio issues in the first half of the debate in which my mic repeatedly was cutting out and having issues. I’m sure it will still be viewable, though there will no doubt be a few irritating parts.

  • Michael A in OKC
    Posted at 20:55h, 10 August

    To Michael P: I’m sorry to say that we have only recently arrived in OKC and have not selected a church yet. When we find one I’ll try to remember to send you an email.

  • Brent
    Posted at 22:42h, 10 August

    I brought my son and youth pastor to the debate. We thought it was pretty apparent right off that Joel was not a “heretic” and a “newspaper exegete” simply because his view challenges some deeply entrenched eschatological “theories”. 🙂 I was disappointed that Ice didn’t firmly denounce the “heretic” comment concerning Joel, because words do matter.

    I’ve seen Ice debate before and it appeared to me that he felt on the defense and somewhat intimidated through some of the debate, and though he may not say it, I would have to think there’s either a grudging respect, or a guilty conscience (or both) there since he came to Joel afterwards and spoke for a while.

    I enjoyed Joel’s presentation; graphics were great and so is the laptop skin!! His humor helped lighten things for the whole crowd… well most of the crowd.:) You would never have guessed that this was his first debate, he pulled it off like a pro!!

    And like Michael A, I would also like thank you Joel for talking with me. I know you had a million things on your mind, thanks for your time and for doing this debate. It was worth the 2 hours we drove!

  • Joel
    Posted at 23:00h, 10 August

    Thanks so much Brent. Wow. Thanks for driving two hours. Overall, I felt good about it, though there were definitely some points I was to not able to make due to time constraints. I never even touched Daniel 8 or 11 which are huge passages and which Tommy’s position has some serious problems. Unfortunately, when Tommy came over at the end, it was not to compliment or apologize. I will just leave it at that. I’m looking forward to reviewing the video.

  • linda keyes
    Posted at 00:05h, 11 August

    Actually Joel, believe it or not, I posted Mr Ice today, expaining how Daniel 8+11 convinced me ages back,(before i found your. Wrbdite) along with the leopard description of the beast in rev 13, that the ac would come from the middle East, and as I studied from the word alone, I felt it was unfair to say that scripture is a secondary source of guidance for those who come to such a conclusion.

    That your website gave many the missing link: how the ac will be able to gain the following of all those islamic nations.

  • Joel
    Posted at 00:28h, 11 August

    Hi Linda,

    You are absolutely correct. This is also what led Lactantius to write that in the Antichrist would arise from Syria. Unfortunately, in a recent sermon, Tommy said he believes Daniel 8 is entirely historically fulfilled, that Antiochus is merely a type or shadow of the AC. This despite Gabriel’s clear insistence to the contrary.

  • linda keyes
    Posted at 00:28h, 11 August

    (I came to agree with Mr dakes, but it was my own conclusion,if you like Dakes helped to strengthen my view)

  • Chuck
    Posted at 18:11h, 11 August

    Joel, Does Mideast Beast delve into the leopard, bear, and lion?

  • Joel
    Posted at 19:01h, 11 August

    A bit.

  • Troy Geddes
    Posted at 18:40h, 14 August

    Joel;

    Just wanted you to know about one of your disciples. ME! I have been studying the bible nearly everyday for 24 years now. On the mission field I was sometimes able to study for extremely long periods of time. I was never actually able to make the European model work but never really knew why. I took on line courses from some pretty smart people also. I also signed up for a two on line live seminars taught by Charles Cooper. I still couldn’t quite get it to make sense. Before I went on the mission field I had a radio program that taught Pre-Wrath so I was not misguided by the “any moment” crowd at all. But is was not until your ministry that I began to see this as the missing link to what I had been looking for. Actually it was a simple for me as just translating the hard Biblical names of places that will be destroyed during the day of the Lord’s wrath to modern names. This sealed the deal for me… I wanted you to see my 24 years of effort with your ministries influence on my RU-NOBLE web page. If you look down through this you will see your FINGER PRINTS all over it. In every presentation I do I mention your name and give you full credit. If you look you will also see Dalton’s “Controversy of Zion all over the Hebrew Prophets tab. You two have been incredibly impactful in my understanding of God’s Word. I can never say all that it means to me in a post but God bless you for your integrity and humility and courage. We who have been blessed by your ministry are blessed beyond the after student of the Bible. So here are my links.. you will absolutely see your work in my effort to get the word out as you do.

    http://ru-noble.com/progressive-dispensationalism.html

    http://ru-noble.com/hebrew-prophets.html

  • Joel
    Posted at 21:52h, 14 August

    Troy,

    Love it brother. Thanks for the encouragement and blessed to be involved in your life and ministry.

    Blessings,
    Joel

  • Ron Hull
    Posted at 16:22h, 15 August

    Joel,
    I understand Geoge N. H. Peters did an extensive study on this topic called the Theocratic Kingdom. Do you know where he fits in on the debate. I was of the Western antichrist thought until getting ahold of your books. Just today there was an article in the Jerusalem Post on consern over U.S stockpile of nuclear weapons in Turkey. Your thoughts.
    Shalom
    Ron

  • Joel
    Posted at 16:42h, 15 August

    I have a couple of George Peter’s books, but I’m not sure if he gets into this issue specifically. Nathaniel West has a book in which he addresses this question. Obviously, the 50 or so nukes in Turkey is a problem. I personally think they should be pulled immediately. I doubt they will however.

  • Jeff Marshall
    Posted at 17:40h, 17 August

    Joel,
    Any idea if there’s anywhere one can link & watch the debate with Ice yet?

  • Joel
    Posted at 17:55h, 17 August

    It will be available through Southwest Radio Ministries in a few weeks.

  • David Tutwiler
    Posted at 01:55h, 18 August

    Hi Joel,
    Any plans to visit the Boise area soon?
    RT did a story on youtube saying China is getting involved helping the Assad government. They are trying to imply that Turkey may even support Assad. Are they not the most ardent of enemies in this conflict?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzuPA5_E6FI

    Praying for an endtimes awakening of the Church

    David

  • Cole
    Posted at 21:36h, 18 August

    I was at the debate and thought Joel did a great job of presenting his case. The second half was much better than the first, largely due to Joel’s mic issues. I appreciate the fact that Joel doesn’t act like he’s 100% certain on his interpretation of every passage of Scripture. Thomas Ice seemed quite the opposite. He acts as if he’s received divine revelation and cannot be wrong. His firm stance makes sense though, considering his entire life has been built around his specific end times views. If he changed his mind now he’d probably feel like his whole life was a failure. That’s probably why he didn’t read Mideast Beast.

    Joel, please do more debates! I really enjoyed hearing from both sides.

  • Joel
    Posted at 21:51h, 18 August

    Thanks Cole. I tried to get Hank Hanegraaf to do a debate, but he has so far not taken me up on it.

  • Joel
    Posted at 21:53h, 18 August

    David,

    I do not have any invites to Boise in the near future. I will be in Coeur d’Alene in October however for Chuck Missler’s Strategic Perpsectives.

  • David Tutwiler
    Posted at 02:30h, 19 August

    Joel,

    I see you get fifty minutes each time speaking except at breakfast. Will you get to speak for that entire ninety minutes?

    Would love the people of the Treasure Valley to hear you. Can I talk to you about organizing an invite to the Boise area?

    David

  • David Tutwiler
    Posted at 02:34h, 19 August

    Would you seek to debate Hank on replacement theology?
    Isn’t he a full preterist?

  • David Tutwiler
    Posted at 14:07h, 19 August

    Joel,

    Have you heard of Fouad Masri of the Crescent Project?
    I attended one of their Bridges one day seminars five or six years ago with one of my sons.

    https://www.crescentproject.org/index.cfm/PageID/1492/index.html

    Tom Doyle is a keynote at their National conference this coming November in Houston. I remember Chris Mitchell mentioning Tom’s name on your recently uploaded YouTube channel.

    David

  • Joel
    Posted at 14:23h, 19 August

    Hank is a partial preterist. I would debate him on the issue of if the Scriptures teach a future restored Kingdom of Israel. In other words, replacement theology.

  • Joel
    Posted at 14:24h, 19 August

    I have no idea what my times are at the Strategic Perspectives. I would love to talk about Boise. Just drop me an e-mail. [email protected]

  • Mark Davidson
    Posted at 20:07h, 28 August

    Good trailblazing there, Joel. Debates have always been a powerful way of comparing two theories, and I believe the IAT will advance greatly with more of these. There is so much more in Bible prophecy to be realized once we realize the AC is from the Mideast.
    Can’t wait to see it.

  • Hyun Jung Kim (Mario Kim)
    Posted at 17:10h, 03 September

    Hi Joel,
    Really appreciate all your work, I am a Korean living in Mexico (actually I’d been living in Latin America almost my whole life!) and here we have some God’s pastors like Armando Alducin, Jesus Olivares or David Diamond (in America spanish speaking pastors like Gary Lee or Antonio Bolainez too) preaching an european AC… I don’t know if they read your books but I am sure that their eschatological basis will be deaply moved (at least related to the AC origin) after reading them!
    still waiting to see the debate…God bless you.

  • TM
    Posted at 14:22h, 12 September

    Joel,
    I just ordered Mideast Beast. Please tell me you cover Daniel 7 very thoroughly in that book (I hope, I hope). If you don’t, do you have an article somewhere that deals just with that? I don’t see that here under Daniel. I’ve been reading a lot of thoughts on this chapter and I definitely want yours. If you don’t have an article just on that topic, may I suggest that you crank one out ASAP. LOL

    Thanks brother,
    TM

  • Tony Vital
    Posted at 04:01h, 16 September

    Mr. Richardson: Would you clarify something?: The SWRC account of the debate between you and Mr Ice (in it’s most recent newsletter), attributes the following statement to you: “The popular belief that the Antichrist will verbally declare himself to be God and demand worship from the whole world is PROBLEMATIC” (emphasis mine). The actual scripture in 2 Thess 2:4 reads as follows: “He will oppose and exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God”.(NIV) What is that, if not (as SWRC has you saying) : “….verbally declaring himself to be God and demand worship from the whole world.” ?

  • Joel
    Posted at 06:13h, 16 September

    Verbal is something spoken with the mouth. The verse specifically says that “he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.” It says nothing of verbalizing anything. This is often assumed or imagined, but the verse doesn’t actually say this. More likely, it is the very act of sitting in the Temple that is being referenced. Afterall, in Rev. 13:6 we are told the Antichrist, “opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.” Daniel 11 is says the Antichrist blasphemes God specifically by speaking “monstrous things against the God of gods.” Thus, it is problematic to say on one hand the Antichrist speaks against God, while at the same time claiming to be the very God he speaks monstrous things against. More likely, the act of sitting in the Temple is an act of defiance against the God of the Temple, and act of proclaiming himself to be superior. God knows best.

  • David Tutwiler
    Posted at 04:08h, 17 September

    Joel,
    Any idea when we will be able to see the debate?

  • Colin
    Posted at 19:44h, 17 September

    Normally, a video like this could be uploaded the same day. There may be a legitimate reason but it makes you wander if someone has a problem with it.

  • David Tutwiler
    Posted at 04:09h, 18 September

    I guess both Tommy and Joel have to agree to uploading it or we’ll never see it, ya think?

  • Joel
    Posted at 06:06h, 18 September

    We’re just waiting on South West Radio to release it.

  • Veronica Nero
    Posted at 13:10h, 21 February

    Just watched the debate. I am so disappointed in Tommy’s treatment of Joel. Joel handled himself with such grace and humbleness in the face of being called a heretic. Resorting to name calling to discredit another’s point of view is very UnChristian to say the least. Then, to mock Joel for reading a section of the Midrash to interpret parts of the Old Testment, shame on you Tommy! Who better to interpret the prophets or any part of the Torah than the very people who have guarded it for thousands of years so that pagans like us could be given a chance for salvation. All things will pan out just as He has said it would. We as believers should be concerned with how we treat each other and His people the Jews much more than we are currently demonstrating to the unbelieving world!

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