67 Comments
  • Jeanne
    Posted at 17:08h, 19 January

    Thank you Joel; this is very helpful. I took four pages of notes while listening! You bring clarity and understanding to this prophecy, and the inclusion of the historical events adds weight to the argument that this is yet future. This will be very helpful in explaining Daniel 8 to others. Just yesterday, I was also listening to some interviews Mark Davidson gave on Daniel 8, so it is making more sense now.

    In Matthew 24, Jesus points us to Daniel immediately after He warns about the signs of His return and the deception that is coming. Reggie Kelly has said that he believes understanding Daniel is key to being kept from the “unequaled deception” that is coming, and I agree. In Matthew 24:25, Jesus then adds, almost as a pause in the middle, “Behold, I have told you in advance.” Thank you, Lord Jesus, for giving us everything we need to be prepared! Thank you for telling us in advance! As Reggie said in last Saturday evening’s online discussion, prophecy is for “the strengthening, encouraging, and comfort of the saints.” May we run with these prophecies to that end.

  • Joel
    Posted at 17:31h, 19 January

    So glad you are listening to Reggie. He’s a bright and shining lamp.

  • David Baird
    Posted at 06:21h, 20 January

    Very well done.

    One Question: Do you believe these events you have touched on precede a 7 year tribulation or could their be a slight overlap between the little horn and the Trib. Does the Little horn initiate the 7 year covenant?

    All the Best

  • Abraham
    Posted at 07:42h, 20 January

    Thank You Joel for your clear teaching…I look forward to your posts

  • Perry Brown
    Posted at 13:23h, 20 January

    Joel,

    Exactly, Daniel 8 is a prophecy primarily and mainly pertaining to the end-times. Yes, there are historical events that foreshadow much of the details of the prophecy, however not in a complete and perfect way. As you have mentioned, many details in the prophecy do not match up to the reign and carrier of Antiochus Epiphanes, or even the breakup of Alexander’s empire.

    Of the many of details in this prophecy, two things are still mysterious and intriguing:

    1. the Antichrist growing up to the host of heaven, casting them down and trampling over them. (Dan 8:10)

    2. the host will be given over to the Antichrist on account of transgression (Dan 8:12-13)

    While the first I believe to be spiritual host, meaning angelic or spiritual nature, the second host, at this point, seems to me a natural host (or army).

    As you have correctly made the correlation between the event of the Antichrist growing and casting down the host of heaven in Daniel 8 and the casting down of the third of the stars of heaven by the tail of the Dragon in Revelation 12, definitely the Antichrist will have some kind of access to the heavenly realm to impact the spiritual atmosphere in a significant way.

    Are these angels good or evil ones he casts down and tramples on? Can we have a definite answer to this? Or could it be both, good and evil angels?

    It seems to me at least evil angels are ones being cast down and trampled over. These could be among the principalities, powers, rulers of the darkness and spiritual wickedness that dwell in the heavenly places (Eph 6:12). Satan will give the Antichrist his power, throne and great authority (Rev 13:2). Therefore, the Antichrist will have dominium over the kingdom of darkness. Of course he will use much of the kingdom of darkness to achieve his goals (Dan 8:24, Dan 11:39), but it seems odd why we will cast down and trample (destroy) some. Could it have to do with the evil spiritual strongholds over nations (Dan 8:24; 11:39) and geographic areas or even that are over false religions (Dan 11:36, 37; 2 Ts 2:4) that he take away in order to prosper?

    Could it be possible that the Antichrist casts down and tramples over good angels? Could this be one of the reasons (there are many others of course) why Michael and his angels will wage war against Satan and his angels (Rev 12:7-9)?

    Regarding the second host mentioned by Daniel in Dan 8:12-13, it seems to me that this host is different from the first host (Dan 8:10). This host has some kind of connection or correlation to the regular or continuing sacrifices and the holy place or sanctuary, and also the giving over is in consequence to transgression.

    To me this seems a more natural host rather spiritual, as it is related to the Jewish sacrificial system and Israel’s temple in Jerusalem. I also believe that as consequence of Israel’s transgressions, the host will be given over to the Antichrist for him to trample.

    Could this host be Israel’s army, namely IDF? Or could this refer to all defense systems set up by Israel (Iron Dome and others)?

    Could this giving over the host be part of peace treaty or covenant deal (Dan 9:27)?

    I know there are many questions in this post, I don’t expect you to answer all of them, that’s not the point. I’m just sharing some of the questions I have in my mind as I study the book of Daniel. Could I be going in the right direction or could I have just missed some basic interpretation on these topics?

    In Christ,

    Perry Brown

  • Joel
    Posted at 18:12h, 20 January

    Perry,

    Spot on.

  • Azim
    Posted at 19:05h, 20 January

    Hi Joel,

    Thank you for this episod, I liked it much. I have a question about the second horn of the ram. If Percia/Iran is the one of the horns, then the other one must be Medes. According to Daniel 8, this two-horned ram will be butting, so I assume that this second horn must emerge first. It seems to me that the area covered by the Medes in Daniel’s time corresponds to Kurdish area (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvFDtH_Fgd8&spfreload=1), but I’m not an expert in this. Looking at the map of the Middle East, I just don’t see any other option for the other horn.
    I would not be surprised, if the current events in Middle East will eventually end up helping Kurds establish their own government/state. And then, Iran, with Kurdish support, might go “butting”.
    Anyways, it would be very helpful if you could elaborate on this other horn of the ram.

    Thanks!

  • Brandon
    Posted at 21:01h, 20 January

    Joel,

    Thank you for sharing your understanding of the scriptures/prophecy as it has truly been a blessing in my life. I just finished reading Tim Warner’s Time of the End and I think it is fascinating how he maps out the time from creation to the end using Chiliasm( I had no clue what this was until I read his book)He uses the principle found in the Bible of ” a thousand years in your sight are like a day” psalm 90:4(also 2 peter 3:8). he quoted some of the early church fathers that believed in the 6 millennia under the curse and on the 7th entering God’s rest as mirrored by the creation week. He used Hosea 6:2 as a time stamp of Israel’s exile since 70AD and eventual return of the Lord in 2029-2036(7oth week of Daniel)He admits to assuming in certain areas, but only being off by a few years at most. In Nelson Walter’s book Are we Ready for Jesus? He mentions the fig tree in Matthew 24:32 as representing Israel becoming a nation in 1948 and the generation that witnessed this happen is getting older. 70 or 80 years later would be 2018 and 2028, respectively. As Jesus said no one knows the day our the hour except the father. I am mentioning this because the specificity of many bible prophecy interpretations are arising, such as Daniel 8, and are pointing us to the eventual coming of the Lord! Amen! We need to purify our hearts and prepare to meet Him face to face.
    If Iran were to go to war, where would this put us on the biblical timeline?

  • Christine Fortney
    Posted at 02:57h, 21 January

    I am so glad you did this video!! I have just started reading Rodrigo Silva’s book, so much information to try and understand!! I hope you will do more of these, because you explains things so clearly. Thanks so much for the time you spend doing these programs!!

  • Jason
    Posted at 17:06h, 21 January

    Azim,

    I could be wrong about this but what I am about to talk about does seem interesting to me. The Bible says the ram has two horns and one horn was higher and came up last. To me when the Bible talks about horns on beasts they usually represent kings or leaders (The ten horns on the beast in Revelation 13 or the prominent horn on the goat in Daniel 8 for examples). My thoughts are that the two horns on the ram represent two leaders. This is only speculation but the first horn could be a current leader of Iran like the President or the commander of the IRGC like Mark Davidson says, the second horn that is higher and rises up later could be the next supreme leader of Iran. I heard within the last year or so that Iran’s current supreme leader Khamenei has stage four prostate cancer and they only gave him a couple of years to live. So this could very well be what happens but like I said speculation only.

  • Nelson Walters
    Posted at 19:31h, 21 January

    Joel I think this episode is the definitive teaching on the consistent futurist position of Dan 8. I have been referring a number of folks to view it including some other “prophecy teachers”. Some may wonder about the impact of the goat being divided into four pieces and the impact of that on the futurist position of Dan 11. There is a subtle difference in Dan 11:4. In that verse the empire is parceled to the four winds of heaven not into four distinct horns. So the proof you provide for Dan 8 cannot be applied to Dan 11:2-20. I am always asked about Dan 11:2-20 as being dual fulfillment or just past. I haven’t found any evidence for dual fulfillment yet for the first section of Dan 11. Verse 21 is where I see the dual fulfillment start. Have you found any?

  • Joel
    Posted at 20:54h, 21 January

    Nelson,

    Keil and Delitzsch detail some historical problems with the tradition Seleucid/Ptolemaic interpretation. I’m still working through it myself.

  • Joel
    Posted at 20:56h, 21 January

    Jason,

    I agree with Azim. It says two horns, which represent two leaders, one is Persia and the other is Media. This would likely point to a Persian Kurdish coalition. Whether or not Kurdistan needs to become something more than it is now is yet to be seen. They are already somewhat autonomous.

  • Perry Brown
    Posted at 23:43h, 21 January

    Regarding the two horns of the ram according to the consistent futurist position it seems to be that there are two propositions here: 1. two horns could represent two leaders (offices) within Iranian domain and 2. two horns could represent the spiritual inheritors of the Persians and the Medes, namely Iranians and Kurds, respectively.

    First thing to consider is that the ram has two high horns. Very simplistically, horns are symbolic of power. Therefore, the ram should be characterized as having two prominent powers. Could or should these two horns be prominent consecutively or concurrently or? In other words, does the ram have one horn that grows high and then after another horn sprouts out and grows higher than the first or it has two horns one higher than the other and suddenly the lower grows higher than the first?

    Secondly, should we understand Gabriel’s explanation (Dan 8:20) of the ram with the two horns being the kings of Media and kings of Persia meaning as one (as a whole) or two separate geopolitic/ethnolinguistic domains/realms?

    I believe answering these questions will help us understand the identity of the two horns (powers) of the ram.

    Blessings

  • Nelson Walters
    Posted at 16:26h, 22 January

    Brandon, thanks for reading my book. Just to qualify for those that haven’t read it, the book states that a generation “could” be 70 or 80 years as per Psalm 90 or it could be the lifespan of those who saw Israel become a nation. This could add 20-25 years to that estimate. Chapter Five of my book discusses the inherent risks of date setting. Rather I think we should watch for the signs God’s word has given us. This video by Joel is an important step in that process.

    But the bottom line to me is to live each day for Yeshua’s Kingdom and to watch just as he instructed us.

  • jason
    Posted at 00:11h, 23 January

    I got two questions:
    (1) Iran = Persia, or both Medes and Persia? Daniel 8 uses plural in “kings of Medes and Persia”–is this a coalition of Iran and Iraq (Iraq under Iran’s conquest?)?
    (2) Above Iran there is no “Middle Eastern” country, is there? Unless the “kings” include Iraq, then Turkey would be Middle East? If the kings of M&P invade North, what country are they invading?

  • Dave Thompson
    Posted at 20:35h, 23 January

    Joel,
    Following up on Perry’s comments regarding the second host, could the ‘continuing sacrifices’ being stopped be the political leader not allowing the daily practice of the Eucharist? Walid Shoebat posted a lengthy article on his site regarding this within the last week, curious as to your thoughts on this.

  • Perry Brown
    Posted at 21:12h, 23 January

    Joel and others

    Along with the consistent futurist position of Daniel 8 (the entire vision) one needs to consider is that if or not Daniel 11 (the entire chapter) could also be applied to a consistent futurist position or as having a dual fulfilment.

    It is my opinion that we can interpret Daniel 11 (the whole chapter) to a consistent futurist position of a dual fulfilment (of course, many prophetic details did not fulfill in the reign and career of Antiochus Epiphanes, especially Dan 11:36-45) for some reasons as detailed bellow:

    Firstly, Daniel chapter 11 is an expanded and more detailed version of the vision in Daniel chapter 8. Both are pointing in the same direction. There are many intersections between both prophecies. Daniel chapter 8 is a very broad view prophecy focusing primarily at the conflict between two kingdoms (east and west) and the end result of an emerging evil king, while not hinting at events in between. Daniel chapter 11 is a very detailed view prophecy focusing primarily on another conflict between two kingdoms (north and south) as a result of the conflict between the east and west kingdoms of chapter 8, and concluding with the same emerging of the same evil king, while not hinting much at the initial events of the conflict of east and west kingdoms. To make it simple, there both chapters tell the same story line and its breakdown into three major events 1, 2 and 3. Where the focus of chapter 8 is on events 1 and 3, while chapter 11 mostly on events 2 and 3, although very briefly mentioning event 1.

    Event 1 – conflict between east (Ram) and west (goat) kingdoms

    Event 2 – conflict between northern and southern kingdoms of the broken-up kingdom of the west (of event 1)

    Event 3 – the emerging of an evil king, namely the Antichrist.

    Secondly, as we have seen in Chapter 8, an angelic messenger actually tells Daniel that the vision contained therein pertains to the time of the end (Dan 8:17; Dan 8:19), could there be an angelic explanation that Chapter 11 (as a whole) could also pertain to the time of the end? O believe this could also be the case.

    Daniel receives a thing (word, message) from the Lord in the third year of Cyrus’s reign (Dan 10:1). This word or message, as most translations, concerns of a great conflict or warfare, while other translations says that the time appointed was long. Daniel writes in third person (Dan 10:1) and says that he understood the word or message and obtained understanding of the vision. This word or message from the Lord he received probably was through a vision (like many others he has had during his lifetime). Then, he states that he understood the word or message and vision. The question is did he gain understanding immediately as he received the word and had the vision? I don’t think so. He gains understanding 21 days later. So, after 21 days of fasting, mourning (Dan 10:2-3), applying his heart to understand the message and humbling before the Lord (Dan 10:12) vision he has another vision! Now this time, a vision of an angelic visitation or, as some prefer, of pre-incarnate Lord Jesus Himself. I prefer to see this as an angel, instead of Jesus. This angel interacts with Daniel, touching him, strengthen him, and explaining the meaning of the message and vision Daniel had 21 days earlier. The angel says: “Daniel… understand the words that I am about to tell you.. I have been sent to you” (Dan 10:11), “I have come to give you an understanding of what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision pertains to the days yet future” (Dan 10:14). “I will tell you what is inscribed in the writing of truth” (Dan 10:21).

    After this, the angel explains the meaning of the message and vision Daniel received 21 days earlier, which is recorded in Daniel 11:1-12:4. As mentioned above, the angel tells Daniel what will happen to the Jewish people in the latter days, namely the time of the end, yet the majority of the passage is not really focused on Daniels people, however, the gentiles kings of the North and Kings of the South). The reason for this is that Daniel needed to understand some introductory events that would take place before he understood what would happen to his people. To properly understand what will happen to Israel in the end times, we need to understand the staging and preparatory events that will happen with some gentile nations. The information available to us (Daniel 11-12) is not merely for our perception and understanding of ancient times, although valuable, but primarily for a framework of events that will mount up and introduce to the most critical time in natural history of humankind.

    The angel says that he will explain to Daniel what will happen to his people in the latter days (time of the end) and that the vision pertains to days yet future. So, if the primary focus of the message and the vision is to what will happen to Israel, and the events are eschatological, the whole message/vision pertains to the time of the end, even though he only says that the vision is for days yet future. If what will happen to Israel is contained within the vision that pertains to the time of the end, consequently the “days yet future” are indeed pertaining to the time of the end.

    In the opening verse, Daniel says that the message / vision he received concerns of a great conflict or warfare. This great conflict or war is detailed in chapter 11 of Daniel. The wars between Persia and Yavan, the wars of the kings of the North and the Kings of the South and the wars engaged by the evil king (Antichrist) are all part of one integral war. Think it as many battles to one huge war. Many, many battles were engaged in World War I and World War II. I believe we need to see this (entire chapter 11) as one big war (maybe in the future it could be called World War III). I believe It’s more reasonable to understand that this great conflict or war (Dan 10:1) is one and not two or more. What I mean by this is that the entire chapter details one war, from the beginning to the end, one war, although many battles, in the end times, since it is related to what will happen to Israel in the latter days, and not two or more wars, those in ancient history (Persia’s conquest of the middle east and stirring up against Greece, Grecian conquest by Alexander and the Hellenistic Syrian Wars between Seleucid and Ptolemaic Empires) and the one in the end-times (Antichrist’s wars).

    I will leave it here for now, however I might continue this reasoning in a next post. I will comment on scripture or writing of truth and the command to Daniel to close the words and seal the book as related to obtaining understanding by the Church in the end times.

    Blessings

  • Joel
    Posted at 23:42h, 23 January

    Dave,

    No. It’s impossible to make that work without doing violence to the text. The text is very clear.

  • Jason
    Posted at 18:05h, 24 January

    Perry Brown,

    I agree with you that Daniel 11 could have a consistent futurist position just like Daniel 8. Also about your above statement about the two horns, I believe it is number 1 (Two leaders within Iran). If you look at a map of the ancient Medes and Persians it appears that both are within the Iranian borders. Check out the map on Iranprophecy.com. But about Daniel 11 it does have some striking parallels to Daniel 8. Daniel 11:2-4 Parallels Daniel 8:3-8. In both you have Iran attacking Turkey (Butting to the north in chapter 8). In both you have the prominent horn retaliating, he is called a mighty king in chapter 11. In both you have his (prominent horn or mighty king) kingdom broken into four. A lot of people make a big deal out of Daniel 8 saying four horns come up and Daniel 11 just says the kingdom is divided toward the four winds of heaven. But I think it simply signifies that the kingdom is divided four ways and there is a leader of each of the four divisions. In Daniel 8 the little horn (Antichrist) rises in verse 9 and in Daniel 11 he rises in verse 21. What happens between verses 5-20 in Daniel 11? In Daniel 8:23 it says in the “latter time” of their kingdom. Meaning there is a gap between the kingdom being divided into four and the rise of the Antichrist. I believe this gap could be what happens in verses 5-20 of Daniel 11. From the time the little horn of Daniel 8 and the vile person of Daniel 11 rise you have the career of the Antichrist from those verses forward. I find it interesting that in Daniel 11:2 it says there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia. Grecia is “Javan”. There have been three kings of Iran since the fig tree blossomed in 1948. It just happens from what I have read on the net that the third and current king of Iran Ali Khamenei has stage 4 prostate cancer and was only given a couple yrs to live. This being the case with everything that is unfolding right now in the middle east. Could Khamenei’s successor be this 4th king of Daniel 11? Just speculating here.

  • Perry Brown
    Posted at 18:23h, 24 January

    Continuing from previous post…

    In Dan 10:1, Daniel affirms that the word/message and vision he received was true. The angel tells Daniel 21 days later what is inscribed or written in the scripture or writing of truth. What writing is this? What book is this? This might be one of the heavenly books, probably related to events in history already written in advanced. Probably, the word / message and vision Daniel received in Dan 10:1 was from this heavenly book and the angel 21 days later gives him the understanding of it, which is recorded in Dan 11:1-12:4.

    Interestingly, Daniel does not write down the actual word / message and vision he received (Dan 10:1). What we read in Dan 11:1-12:4 is not an account of the word / message and vision Daniel had, rather the angelic explanation of it. This is rather odd for Daniel to do, since he does write many of the dreams and visions he and others have receive along with the respective understanding and interpretation (Dan 2; Dan 4; Dan 5; Dan 7; Dan 8).

    At the end of this very long oracle (angelic explanation) in Dan 11:1-12:4, the angel commands Daniel to close or shut-up the words and to seal the book. Daniel the prophet was commanded by an angel to do something that is at his reach. We know that Daniel the prophet is the author of the Book of Daniel we have in our Bible. I believe that the angel told Daniel not to write and make public some specific information that he heard or saw. Some prophetic information Daniel received through the word/message of the Lord, the vision he saw and the angelic explanation is divinely and purposely not recorded in the Book of Daniel. This is similar to experience that John the Apostle had, as recorded in Revelation 10. John has a vision of this mighty angel with a little book in his hand. As this angel cries out with a loud voice (probably reading the content from the little book, since it was open in his hand) seven thunders utter their voices (Rev 10:1-4). Wow, what a scene!!! Immediately, John was about to write what the seven thunders uttered (probably also the voice of the mighty angel reading from the little book), then he heard a voice from heaven telling him not to write it down and seal up these things. So, we do not have recorded in the Book of Revelation the words from this little book and the seven thunders. Of course, we need to trust God’s wisdom the reason for this.

    Back to Daniel, I believe the angel commanded Daniel to do the same as was told to John. There are prophetic information given to two prophets, but a God given command to not make it public in Scripture. However, the angel tells Daniel, that this closing of the word and the sealing of the book will be until the time of the end. Great news! What does this mean? Does it mean that an angel will visit a prophet again in the end times and give the account what was withheld? Will someone find a secret book or chapters of Daniel hidden in a cave for centuries? I don’t think so. Scripture is canonized and closed. Nothing can be added to it.

    I believe the “unsealing” or “opening” of the message and the book is directly related to the Church’s understanding at the time of the end of the Book of Daniel and other prophetic and eschatologic information. The angel tells 4 times to Daniel that in the time of the end there will be those of understanding and wise ones (Dan 11:33, 35; Dan 12:3, 10). Indeed, this requires much Holy Spirit revelation and guidance. The angel gives Daniel the means of how the saints will gain understanding. He said that many shall run to and fro and knowledge shall increase (Dan 12:4). The phrase to and fro means back and forth or an alternating motion. Who will run to and fro? Those who are of the understanding and the wise ones (Dan 11:33, 35; Dan 12:3, 10). What does this mean? I believe it has a two-fold meaning. Firstly, is a very deliberate search of the Scripture with much pray and fasting, specifically related to eschatological passages. Secondly, a watchful posture, looking correctly at the current events taking place in the world and lining them up to what the Scripture says. The angel tells Daniel that knowledge will increase. How does it increase? Slowly and incrementally.

    What is my point here? My point is that the Church will gain and increase knowledge and understanding as prophetic events begin to take place in the world. If we look at prophecies like Daniel 8 and 11, and as they start to come to pass, the Church will start to have confidence and prepare herself for the last seven years of natural history, as well as be emboldened to complete the great commission.

    I believe it is God’s wisdom along with mercy, that He would show his prophets events that will take place in the earth even before the final 7 years of natural history. Daniel chapter 8 and 11 are essential for the Church in this hour. Not only the section of these prophecies related to the Antichrist and the events taking place in the last 7 years are essential, but also to the entire prophecy, even those before the emerging of the Antichrist.

    Blessings

  • Dirk
    Posted at 17:52h, 25 January

    Joel,

    I agree with those who accept the traditional notion of Kasander, Lysimachus, Ptolemy and Seleucus as being the four horns.

    Daniel 8 does not say these four horns immediately sprang forth. Rather, the four horns *grew* up in place of the large horn. Antigonus had a moment that faded, and his kingdom was swallowed up by several of the diadochi as they grew in power. That Antigonus and his family had a tenuous grip on Macedon (on occasion) thereafter seems relatively unimportant compared to the longevity and stature of the 4 traditional diadochi.

  • Perry Brown
    Posted at 00:03h, 26 January

    Hi Jason,

    Exactly. My opinion is that the ram is the Islamic Republic of Iran and two horns are two leaders/powers within the Iran: the office of the Supreme Leader of Iran (Grand Ayatollah) and either the office of the President of Iran or the IRGC. Yes, I believe you are correct; there are some parallels in both chapters 8 and 11. Part of the charging and conquering of the Ram includes stirring up all against Yavan (Turkey). I also believe that the kingdom of the mighty king (Yavan) breaking up in to the four winds of heaven (Dan 11:4) corresponds to the same breaking up of the notable horn in to four horns (Dan 8:8). Interestingly, Dan 8:8 does mention that the in the place of the notable horn came up four horns toward the four wind of heaven. Yes, Dan 11:5-20 fits within a gap in between verses Dan 8:8 and Dan 8:9 and within verse Dan 8:23.

    I believe the four Persian kings in Dan 11:2 should commence as once the current government regime started in Iran (Persia), which is the Islamic Republic of Iran. I would not start the count in 1948. This date is related to Israel and not Iran. I would not count the Pahlavi Dynasty of Iran as number one. I believe it must commence with the Iranian Revolution. So, number one would be Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, number two would be Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. In my opinion, the third would be Khamenei’s successor. Then, we have the forth, the richest of them all. The fourth, now into Dan 8:3, the second (last) horn becoming higher than the first horn. Probably, there would be some kind of take over or coup and either the president of Iran or a leader of the IRGC becomes the higher horn, namely the fourth king as mentioned in Dan 8:3.

    Blessings

  • phillip fleeman
    Posted at 01:39h, 26 January

    How do we connect Dan. 8 to Dan. 11? The main thrust of Dan. 8 is the endtimes kingdom of Grecia coming against the kingdom of Persia, consisting of 2 kings. The main thesis of Dan. 11 is found in verse 2: “there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia…” and the fourth shall “stir up all against the realm(kingdom) of Grecia. Right away we see the likeness of the two chapters. The fourth and final/(king, or perhaps he is only the prince of Persia [as the 2nd part of the 2 horns of the ram]) ruler to stand up against the kingdom of Grecia.
    I agree that the angel’s explanation given to Daniel in chapter 11 is NOT what Daniel saw in his vision spoken of in chapter 10, but is merely an attempt to fill in the gaps that ends with the jixt of what happens in chapter 10. In other words, chapter 11 thru the first part of chapter 12 culminates in the events told in chapter 10, the time of great tribulation when the archangel Michael stands up, as per 12:1. The angel’s explanation, for the most part, ends with 12:3. The conclusion of chapter 10, prior to the explanation of chapter 11, culminates with the coming of the prince of Grecia, a suitable harmonic placement of the vision of chapter 8. Dan. 8:19 gives some point of specificity to the timing: “…what shall be in the last end of the indignation, for at the time appointed the end shall be”. He states that it is to take place in the LAST END of the indignation, with indignation refering, i Believe, to be during the time of God’s wrath, or indignation, which is to take place at the end of Daniel’s 70th week. Further support is found in the fact that most analyses of the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy, has a starting point some time AFTER the start of the last 7 years. According to Dan. 10 the conflict that involves the kingdom of Grecia, also comes after Michael comes on the scene, which we see in Dan. 12:1. That allows, the ram with 2 horns to be sequentially equal to the the lamb with two horns as per Rev. 13. A consistent futurist interpretation of Dan. 11 can be maintained. The result would then be to identify who are the three kings of persia, and where are they found within the context of chapter eleven.
    Blessings to all who keepeth the sayings and the prophecy of HIS BOOK!
    Phil

  • Joel
    Posted at 01:43h, 26 January

    Dirk,

    With all due respect, this is simply not true. Your history is not at all accurate. I’ve just finished several fairly involved books on this matter. Antigonus was far and away the most dominant of all the diadochi coming the closest to taking all of the former dominion of Alexander. He was finally defeated roughly 24 years after Alexander died. At that time, his son Demetrius took a small satrapy, but by this time Seleucus and Ptolemy were dominant. There was never a time that there were only four. History simply does not fit.

  • Nelson Walters
    Posted at 02:11h, 26 January

    This is an awesome discussion.
    Jason there TWENTY TWO fingerprint identifying similarities of Dan. 8 to Dan. 11. Some involve exact quotes in the Hebrew. Eventually I’ll share this on my website, but I bet you can find them yourself. Maybe even more than my 22.

    Joel, Perry and all: I’d like you to consider a nuance about YAVAN which is translated “Greece” in English version of Daniel 8. Yavan were a people that populated the Greek Isles, the Bosporus straits and western Turkey. Throughout this discussion we refer to this area as “TURKEY”. I don’t think we are precisely correct. I think it may be a new nation state. Perhaps even a Sunni Caliphate. Sunni clerics are looking for a Caliphate to be based in “Constantinople” (Istanbul) and Istanbul is the center of the Yavan region. IMO, it’s possible that after the Shia invasion of the middle east, the Sunni form a Caliphate based in Istanbul to combat the Shia threat. It may be this “Yavan-Goat” caliphate that destroys Iran. Remember it’s the “first king” of the Goat that is broken off, but Turkey has had many “kings.” Yavan has to be something new.

  • Greg
    Posted at 00:27h, 27 January

    Joel,

    Do you know if there is a link between the Islamic Dajjal and Zechariah 11:17? From an initial glance, there “seems” to be some similarities.

    Greg

  • Joel
    Posted at 00:59h, 27 January

    I’m sure that is where the “blind in one eye” tradition is derived.

  • Perry Brown
    Posted at 00:35h, 28 January

    Nelson,

    I also think there is more than just Turkey involved in this goat kingdom of Yavan. Here is how I see it. I believe that the goat of Daniel 8 will be some kind of confederacy or alliance of four nations led by Turkey. Could this be the Sunni Caliphate? Possibly yes. Perhaps, it may not be a Caliphate, but definitely will be Sunni. Why four nations? The goat of Daniel 8 corresponds to the leopard of Daniel 7. Yes, I also believe there is an end-time application or perspective (consistent futurist position) of Daniel’s vision of four beasts in chapter 7. The leopard has four heads (Dan 7:6) representing four kings or kingdoms. This leopard, while using its wings for flight and speed to gain dominion, corresponds to the goat coming from the west over the surface of the whole earth without touching the ground. Therefore, when Yavan charge westward and rush at Iran to cast it to the ground and to trample, it does so with four kingdoms, however one king (prominent or conspicuous horn). I believe that the four horns that sprout out after the breaking up of the prominent horn of the goat could be exactly the same four nations that had previously came into this confederacy.

    What four nations would comprise the goat confederacy or alliance? Well, Turkey (Yavan) for sure. We know from Dan 8:8 and Dan 11:4 the four kingdoms will be toward the four winds of heaven (north, south, east and west). Most likely, Turkey would be the kingdom to the north (Magog from the extreme north). The other kingdom that Daniel 11 focuses on is the south. Most likely, southern kingdom would be Egypt, corresponding to Ptolemaic Empire of ancient history, and as stated in Dan 11:8; Dan 11:42. The other two kingdoms is only speculation. They could be Sunni portions of Syria and Iraq, just a guess.

    Blessings

  • Jason
    Posted at 05:48h, 29 January

    Perry,

    I agree with you on Egypt being part of a confederacy. If what you say about this four nation confederacy is true which I think it definetly could be. I think after Iran invades the middle east four nations (Four heads of leopard) would form a confederacy maybe even calling it or establishing it as a Sunni Caliphate. The leader from Turkey (Javan) would be the first leader or king of this Caliphate or confederacy. He is even called the first king in Daniel 8:21. After the confederacy crushes Iran it will be divided back to four. Egypt being one of the four. I believe if Daniel 11 is all future what you would have between verses 5-20 is two leaders one form Turkey and one from Egypt fighting for control of these four nations. It appears that after the dividing of this kingdom into four there may be a couple kings of the north before Antichrist rises but one doesn’t last very long. In other words the prominent horn is broken (killed, dies or removed from power) then you have his replacement for a while lets say a few yrs (just speculation) then you would have the one that is destroyed within a few days (Daniel 11:20) then the Antichrist. Haven’t got all the kinks worked out but if Daniel 11 is future then this is how it “could” play out or something similar.

  • Phillip Fleeman
    Posted at 15:02h, 29 January

    One must not overlook the purpose of chapter 11, the angelic understanding of the matter found in chapter 10. The kings of Persia shall arise, yea, #4 shall be far richer than the previous 3. An overview of chapter 11 shows the rise of 3 future kings of the south starting in verse 7, with the 2nd one found in verse 20 and the 3rd one found in verse 21 down to the end of the discourse; (let’s not overlook the fact that even this 3rd king comes to his end in verse 45, setting the stage for the rise of the 4th, the one who will stir up all against the kingdom of Grecia “in the last end of the indignation”; and found within this discourse is only one king of the north taking the stage of events. I know that this is a nontraditional approach to looking at this chapter, but could it be that these kings of the south are actually the kings of Persia that the angel is revealing to Daniel? It says in verse 8 that this first king of the south continues for more years than the king of the north, i.e. he comes into power BEFORE the king of the north does. There is no mention of the involvement of the kingdom of Grecia except with the 2nd attempt of the king of the north to attack the king of the south (it shall not be as the former, nor as the latter ) by intervening and thwarting the king of the Norths 2nd attempt. What we see in verse 21 is actually when the king of the north unifies the Muslim world (the king of the north obtains the kingdom of the south via flattering in making a unified attack on Israel). The rest of the account of chapter 11,from verse 21 on, is the historical account of this rise of the king of the north to the head of the caliphate and its attack on Israel that starts in chapter 12. His “coming to his end” sets the stage for the rise of the 4th king of Persia.
    Blessings to all who keepeth the sayings and the prophecy of HIS book!
    Phil

  • Perry Brown
    Posted at 10:02h, 30 January

    Jason,

    Yes, exactly how I see it. I believe that understanding the futurist applications of the visions in Daniel will be critical for the preparedness of the Church in many aspects for the days to come.

  • Jéssica
    Posted at 14:19h, 01 February

    Hello, Joel!
    I´m from Brazil, and I’m watching your videos and
    teachings about the prophecies, and I have been learning a lot. I always wanted to learn more about this, and asked God to show me how to understand the signs, and few weeks later, I found your first video. Here in Brazil, the ministers are not teaching about this anymore, and I think around the world this is happening too. People are no longer coming to the churchs to learn about JEsus and live to the light of his word, they’re coming because of promises of prosperity. The true gospel has been lost along the years, and I think this is the rise of the false prophets.

    I also believe that all these upheavals that have happened, fighting for things that clearly the word of God goes against are going to multiply lawlessness as it is said in Matthew 24.
    I believe Jesus is coming soon, when I saw the news of the Shia cleric assassinated, I was sure that something bad was about to happen.
    As you said, it may take a long time yet to happen all this prophecy, like so many others that are to be fulfilled, however, I believe that every time they are being fulfilled quickly, one after the other.
    I do not know which yet to be fulfilled before beginning the reign of the Antichrist, could you tell me?

    I apologize for mistakes in my English.

    God continue to bless you and give you that clarity of interpretation of his word.

  • Jane
    Posted at 08:21h, 06 February

    why did you take my post down Joel? Couldn’t you at least have given me the courtesy of a reply? Don’t you encourage people to be Bereans?

    Some of you just make it up as you go, eg, the absurd proposition that each seal corresponds to each year of a supposed 7 year tribulation period.Pure fiction.If I were you I would be careful about needing to sell books and the conflict of interest that could create.

    I will stick to the text alone from now on thanks,

    Jane

  • Joel
    Posted at 12:26h, 06 February

    Jane,

    With all due respect, I (try not to) ever post any comments that are either promoting unscriptural ideas, or are rude. Unfortunately I felt your first was unScriptural, and your second post rude.

    Second, please understand that responding to comments on this blog is a very low priority to me. If I have time, occasionally I will. Please understand that my wife and I are raising five children, I am neck deep writing another book (with deadlines), I travel and speak most weekends, I have to write the sermons for those meetings, and I write, edit, and produce underground show, (virtually by myself).

    Please understand that I am not obligated to answer or engage everyone who desires to express themselves here. I felt your comments were rude and immature. I would ask you to pray about this.

    Nevertheless, I’ve written a bit about Daniel’s seventieth week here: I hope you find it helpful.

    https://joelstrumpet.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Daniels-70-Weeks1.pdf

    Blessings, Joel

  • Jane
    Posted at 16:13h, 06 February

    Thank you Joel for your response. I have printed and will read your link to Daniel. I have read most of what you have written and been tremendously impressed by your scholarship and heart for the Lord’s work.

    My post was neither rude nor immature but what I had been working on from a word study analysis. I am trying to understand what Daniel wrote, and that is exactly what I will continue doing, with or without the input of others, which is what I had hoped for by posting to your blog.

    Of course your blog is your own. I respect that.

  • Joel
    Posted at 19:39h, 06 February

    Jane,

    In order to allow comments at all, I have to delete a lot of comments that are far from constructive. Its difficult to discern the true intent of each one. If I misread your comments and was too strong, please forgive me. As a general rule however, accusing others of being motivated by money or selling books generally would be considered rude. Just saying.

    Blessings

  • JJ
    Posted at 06:35h, 11 February

    Hi Joel,

    Are your books available, or going to be available, on Kindle? I bought a kindle to read more of your books (as I’m running out of shelf space), and found only “when a Jew rules the world”.

    Thanks!
    PS. I have mid-east beast and it was a compelling eye-opener. Praise God for your ministry and heart for the middle east!

  • Joel
    Posted at 14:36h, 11 February

    They are all available on Kindle on Amazon. Blessings!

  • Ron Grimes
    Posted at 04:28h, 16 February

    I wanted to reply to Jason’s post on the ram with the two horns, and offer my input. In Joel’s book, “The Islamic Antichrist”, he states,

    “But instead of ten horns, he only has two. The horns speak of authority.”

    So, if we were to extend this to the horns of the ram, perhaps they represent two types of authority exercised in Iran. As you undoubtedly know, Iran has two rulers: a president elected by vote and the greater authority in the form of the “Supreme Leader”. By constitution, their spheres of authority are separate and distinct. How perfectly this ruling structure of Iran fits the prophecy of Daniel 8:3, which states, “It had two horns, and both horns were high, but one was higher than the other, and the higher one came up last.”

    One authority arose before the other. The first Supreme Leader came to power in 1979, and a president was later elected in 1980. The latter is the one that has the most visible role in the world, but the real power exists in the Supreme Leader. See http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/tehran/inside/govt.html where they telling state:

    “The president is the second highest ranking official in Iran. While the president has a high public profile, … ”

    The president, whose office arose last, has the most visible position – connoting the higher horn.

    Since this structure was implemented in Iran, they have spread their power and influence, via state sponsored terrorism, westward (via Hezbollah and Hamas), southward (via Bahrain), and northward (via relations strong trade relations with Turkmenistan and other northern nations). This relates to “I saw the ram charging westward and northward and southward.” Dan 8:4

    For the above reasons, I don’t believe the two horns represent first one Khomeini succeeded by another, but two simultaneously exercised authorities where one has a higher visibility than the other.

    Finally, I can’t help but wonder if the goat from the west is not the United States or perhaps Europe to crush them. The goat is clearly not a close-by nation as it flew over the face of the whole earth without touching the ground.

    “As I was considering, behold, a male goat came from the west across the face of the whole earth, without touching the ground.” Dan 8:5

  • Joel
    Posted at 14:27h, 16 February

    Again, for clarity, the text says the two horns represent the kings of Media and Persia. It doesn’t seem to leave room for two kings of Persia.

  • Ron Grimes
    Posted at 21:03h, 16 February

    Joel,

    Thanks for clarifying, but it’s still unclear to me. Specifically,as to my confusion, since the king of Media reigned before the king of Persia, and the kingdom of Persia essentially swallowed and assimilated the Median kingdom, are not talking about two leaders of the exact same land, which is today Iran?

    I take it that, by Daniel referencing an older culture and newer culture as the horns, they are indeed leaders of the same land – one representing a more ancient way of life and one representing the newer way of life.

    I guess the alternative is that the Kurdish province once again becomes part of Iran, since the Kurds are said to descend from the Medes, and their leader becomes the second horn that rises above the leader of Iran. But, I can’t honestly seeing that happen.

    Any further light on the subject is appreciated. I am admittedly a neophyte in these matters.

    Ron

  • Joel
    Posted at 00:17h, 17 February

    I would lean toward it being a leader of Iran and of the Kurds. This would seem to be the most natural reading. God knows best.

  • Ron Grimes
    Posted at 00:48h, 17 February

    Thank you, Joel. I have found your writings and teachings to be very enlightening. Your book, “The Islamic Antichrist” was a jaw dropper. The pieces of the puzzle just seemed to fit together so perfectly.

  • Ron Grimes
    Posted at 01:04h, 17 February

    One more final argument against it not being an Iran-Kurd coalition or partnership.

    “It had two horns, and both horns were high, but one was higher than the other, and the higher one came up last. I saw the ram charging westward and northward and southward.
    (Daniel 8:3-4 ESVST)”

    Daniel first saw the ram with two horns, and then saw it pushing westward, northward and southward. He did not see one horn and then the ram pushing in these directions, and then growing another horn. Clearly, if a Kurdish leader is the second horn, it has not yet joined with Iran. Yet, Iran has been pushing in these directions since the revolution.

    Note the following from Arab News (http://www.arabnews.com/iran-and-its-expansionist-tendencies):

    “WE must commend Iran’s ability to preoccupy the world, financing crises and initiating battles in Lebanon, Gaza, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Eritrea, Somalia, Afghanistan, Azerbaijan, and Bahrain. This is not to mention Southeast Asian and Central African countries, while supporting its affiliates and agents in the West. Iran is akin to a superpower with a finger in every pie across the world.”

    Lebanon (West)
    Gaza (West)
    Syria (West)
    Iraq (West)
    Yemen (Southwest)
    Eritrea (Southwest)
    Somalia (South)
    Afghanistan (East and North)
    Azerbaijan (North)
    Bahrain (South)

  • Joel
    Posted at 02:35h, 17 February

    Hi Ron,

    There are already at least two Kurdish leaders that could potentially fit the bill. They need not be united in any political sense. This could happen rather rapidly.

  • Perry Brown
    Posted at 23:13h, 17 February

    Hi Joel,

    The ten kings (ten horns) will hate the harlot and destroy her (Rev 17:16). If we consider the city of Mecca (and together with Saudi Arabia) as Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots, we will see the definite destruction of Babylon (Mecca and Saudi Arabia) by the hands of the Antichrist Empire (with the 10 kings). Moreover, if we consider the Old Testament passages of Isaiah 13, 21 and 47 and Jerimiah 50 and 51 as prophecies of this same end-time event, we will see that one of the most prominent agents for the destruction of Babylon is the Medes/Media (Isa 13:17, Isa 21:2 and Jer 51:11). Of course, Elam is in together (Isa 21:2).

    Now, if you are saying that the Ram of Daniel 8, according to end-time fulfilment perspective, could be some kind of partnership, if not alliance, between Iran and the Kurds (Medes), would you consider the Kurds of one of the most prominent agents to destroy Mecca/Saudi Arabia during the reign of the Antichrist?

    Blessings,

  • Joel
    Posted at 23:20h, 17 February

    Perry,

    I am not sure that Isaiah 13-14, 21 and Jeremiah 50-51 are speaking abut the destruction of Mystery babylon. Yes, they are speaking about the last days destruction of Babylon, and while there is much drawn from these texts in Rev. 17-18, I questions whether we can simply retroactively interpret prophecies concerning Babylon and apply them to the Mystery Babylon.

  • Ron Grimes
    Posted at 04:23h, 18 February

    I wanted to now comment/question the interpretation of the goat that defeats the ram. While the angel’s interpretation in Daniel 8:21:

    “21 And the goat is the king of Greece. And the great horn between his eyes is the first king.”

    However, the Hebrew word used here is yâwân, refering to Javan son of Japheth. Typically, Javan is ancestor of the Ionians, which, while it includes Greece, also included the Ionian League, extending into western Turkey in the province of Izmir.

    I doubt if anyone believes Greece will rise to be a great enough power to take out Iran and the Kurds, since Greece is basically the runt of the EU. But, since the Ionian sphere included eastern Turkey, it could very well do so, given that Turkey is the center of the rise of the Ottoman Empire again and the antichrist is likely to come from there (per Joel’s excellent explanations).

    This would then make perfect sense when we read verses 22-25 and see how remarkably similar the description of the goat and his power is to descriptions of the antichrist.

    Is there any reason that this interpretation might be totally off? To me, this makes more sense than believing it will be Greece, or a remotely connected nation whose ties to Greece are a stretch to make.

    Ron

  • Joel
    Posted at 13:02h, 18 February

    Absolutely Ron.

  • Jason
    Posted at 23:49h, 25 February

    Joel you could very well be right one horn could be the leader of the Kurds and the other of Iran. But have you ever looked at the map on Christopher Mantei’s page? If that map is accurate (which I’m not sure it is) it shows both Media and Persia to be within the modern day borders of Iran, kind of like both Meshech and Tubal are both within the borders of Turkey. But like you said God knows best.

  • Joel
    Posted at 01:05h, 26 February

    Yeah, this is an issue that will make sense after the fact. I’m certainly not dogmatic about it. Some issues are seen through a mirror more dimply than others. : )

  • Joey Nelms
    Posted at 21:09h, 28 March

    Hi Joel,
    Does the prophecy in Jeremiah 49:34-39 tie into Daniel 8 and 9?

  • george messenger
    Posted at 16:53h, 06 June

    gog magog is at the end of the millenium acording to rev 20

  • Joel
    Posted at 18:31h, 06 June

    George,

    The Battle described in Revelation 20 is quite different from the Battle described in Ezekiel 38-39:

    https://vimeo.com/161416449

  • Robin Jones
    Posted at 00:44h, 22 November

    Thanks for the thoughts. I’ve been looking at this prophecy myself and have some thoughts in line with yours. Of special note being that the prophecy is set in Iran. Maybe you’d like to take a look at my conclusions at this link https://alsowritten.wordpress.com/2018/03/14/daniel-8-end-time-prophecy/
    God Bless

  • Josef Grundner
    Posted at 17:13h, 02 January

    Hello Joel,

    I have read the chapter about Daniel 8 into German from your book Mideast Beast today and notice that you do not speak so much about an eschatological meaning here as in this video and other videos where you emphasize the end times put. Did you change your mind about the chapter in Mideast Beast? Would not you say that the goat is Alexander the Great? In the book you write that the little horn in Daniel 8 is Antiochus, but that sounds a lot different in this video. And in other videos you have, for example The meaning of the Hebrew word “javan” is emphasized, but I can not find any of it in the book.
    Could you please tell me to what extent you changed your mind about the book in the chapter about Daniel 8? Or do you have an article, or another video that describes your current opinion about Daniel 8?

    Thank you for your service
    God bless you!

  • Joel
    Posted at 18:13h, 02 January

    In Mideast Beast, I articulate the traditional futurist perspective. I have since reconsidered the traditional view in favor of the consistent futurist perspective articulated here.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFfX2VG2wUg

  • Josef
    Posted at 09:39h, 03 January

    Dear Joel,

    Thanks a lot for the video about Daniel 8, which I have already studied halfway through. But I have to preach about Daniel 7 on Sunday. Does this futuristic view about Daniel 8 have affects on Daniel 7, for example regarding the leopard and its four wings or the four heads? I already knew that there were never really four Diadochi, but what do you say about the “four” in Daniel 7? And does this futuristic explanation for Daniel 8 have any further impact on the rest of Mideast Beast or the rest and your interpretation of the Daniel book?

    Teshikur (Thanks in Kurdish – i was there in 2003)
    Greetings from Bavaria

  • Joel
    Posted at 14:00h, 03 January

    Actually, that’s Turkish. There are a lot of Turkmen in the area. In Sorani Kurdish at least, it’s simply “spas.” In my opinion, Daniel 7 is still best understood as pan-historical. No, it doesn’t have any larger impact on the Islamic end-time theory. It just may give us some clarity as to next events. I am still cautious however.

  • Josef
    Posted at 14:28h, 08 January

    Hello Joel!

    Thanks again for the Video about Daniel 8. But I have to ask again. If the little horn from Daniel 8 equates to the little horn from Daniel 7, how does the little horn comes from Daniel 7 out of ten horns and the little horn from Daniel 8 out of four horns?

    Thank you!
    Josef

  • Joel
    Posted at 17:20h, 08 January

    The four horns represent the four divisions or regions of the broken up “New Turkey,’ whereas the ten horns represent ten nations. Thus, one of the ten nations correlates to one of the four regions. It’s simply two different pictures.

  • Josef
    Posted at 23:15h, 18 February

    Hello Joel,
    do you have something for me about the 10 horns from Daniel 7?

    Thanks and blessings!
    Josef

  • Josef
    Posted at 15:05h, 22 April

    Hello joel,
    one more question about Daniel 8. You say that everything in the region is prepared for it, then what about the Kurds? They ned to be already in covenant with Iran, because only then the ram would have two horns. So far it would be a ram with ONE horn. How do you see this?

    Tanks!
    Josef

  • Joel
    Posted at 19:22h, 22 April

    I agree. The Kurds would need to come into alignment with Iran.

  • Josef
    Posted at 13:02h, 23 April

    Thank you Joel!

    if i understand you right, then you would say that we have to wait until the Kurds are coming somehow in Partnership with Iran. But this is not in sight, right?

    In addition, the Kurds would have to be the stronger partner, because the last horn is the bigger one. This is hard for me to imagine.

    or do you think that the Kurds are already part of Iran? But I found nothing to suggest that a strong Kurd in Iran would have an important Position.
    May be you could help me here?

    Thanks
    Josef

  • Josef
    Posted at 00:55h, 27 April

    Hello Joel,

    another question: What is with Verse 14. That fits exactly to Antiochus?

    Thanks
    Josef

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