Important Reminder: Pre-Wrath / Pre-Trib Debate this Friday

A last minute reminder: There will be a very important and exciting event this Friday night, September 25. For the first time, two leading proponents of the respective rapture positions, Pre-tribulationalism and Pre-Wrath will debate. Dr. Thomas Ice, Founder of the Pre-Trib Research Center, and Alan E. Kurschner, of Eschatos Ministries will be holding the first such formal, public debate. If you live in the greater Dallas Ft. Worth area, be sure to plan on attending this truly historic event. Click here for more information.

Ice

54 Comments
  • BJ & Alisa
    Posted at 16:54h, 21 September

    Hello Joel,
    I was looking at your schedule for this week end, will you be involved in the (Night of Prayer for the Nations) on Friday or do you begin Saturday at 2 pm ?

    https://www.facebook.com/LCCFamily/photos/a.187074174640061.53562.113964541951025/1171841086163360/?type=1&theater

    BJ & Alisa

  • Joel
    Posted at 18:40h, 21 September

    I begin Saturday. I had some obligations Friday night.

  • BJ & Alisa
    Posted at 18:55h, 21 September

    Thank you Joel, We also received your product (understanding the times). Thank you for shipping so quickly.

  • Cathy
    Posted at 22:13h, 21 September

    Joel,

    Which day and at what time will you be speaking in Chattanooga, Tn Oct 18-20. I am trying to make arrangements to attend and hope that you have some idea when you will be speaking so I can attend. Thanks in advance for any repsonse.

    In Christ

    Cathy

  • Marc
    Posted at 17:15h, 22 September

    Hi Joel i am in chattanooga, tn also and would like to attend your speaking in hixson the same as cathy if you know anything about the time yet. Thank you sir

  • Joel
    Posted at 17:49h, 22 September

    I’ll get the schedule soon. I do not have it now. Watch for the info on the Church web-site as well.

  • Cathy
    Posted at 04:34h, 23 September

    Hi Marc,

    Hope to you meet you there. I will be traveling a couple of hours from Sevierville. Depending on the time Joel speaks, hopefully my husband can come as well. Perhaps we can meet up for coffee somewhere if he does. Maybe we can talk Joel into coming as well for coffee, or lunch or something.

    I sure would like to chat with you a bit Joel, about…Joel 2: 28-29, and John 3:34 among others

    Thanks,

    In Christ

  • Joel
    Posted at 11:39h, 23 September

    I won;t be able to make the debate after all. I was hoping to make it happen.

  • Marc
    Posted at 21:34h, 23 September

    Hi Cathy

    Yes that would be good, i am going to bring my wife and daughter. If Joel wants to meet for coffee or something that would be great Cathy..

  • Joel
    Posted at 01:17h, 24 September

    Hi guys,

    I will be at the missions conference Saturday night and Sunday morning. Unfortunately I will be maxed out time-wise for meetings. I apologize. My trip is super tight.

    Blessings!

  • Cathy
    Posted at 20:38h, 24 September

    Hi Marc,

    Could you imagine if Joel said “Yeah, sure I’ll meet you.” After that, everyone would expect him to meet and greet them at these things and well, he’d be pressed upon, probably a lot like the times of the Apostles and Jesus, where they drew huge crowds and couldn’t hardly go into a the city because of it.

    Running to find a sycamore tree 😉

  • Joel
    Posted at 21:17h, 24 September

    Sorry guys. I’m not above it. I just am literally swamped. Def. not an apostle or Jesus. : )

  • Mike & Lynn
    Posted at 23:36h, 24 September

    Is there a way to watch Friday night’s debate online? Thanks

  • Alan
    Posted at 23:41h, 24 September

    I just finished Alan Kurschner’s book “Antichrist before the Rapture” and really recommend it. I pray that the debate is Christ-honoring and a sincere search for the Truth by all. Being raised as a pre-tribulation Baptist, I can say that this book makes total sense and motivated me to be more vigilant to build up my faith and to be ready to “suffer for His Name’s sake” in the coming days of tribulation.

  • Joel
    Posted at 23:41h, 24 September

    I do not believe so. But I am sure Alan will make it available afterwards.

  • David Willliams
    Posted at 00:36h, 25 September

    All the best in the Debate Alan, I am reminded of Luke 12;12
    Luk 12:12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in the same hour what you ought to say.

    The Holy Spirit will be with you to say the Truth so that His name and His Word will be Glorified.

    There can only be one Truth in the Doctrine of the Return of Christ.

    Shalom to you at the Debate.

  • Taryn
    Posted at 12:10h, 26 September

    Dying to see this. (I exercise herculean restraint in not putting a thousand exclamation points after that first sentence.)

  • Sam
    Posted at 04:25h, 27 September

    Alan did a great job….. I realized that people believe what they want to believe

  • Sam
    Posted at 15:06h, 27 September

    Alan was able to get Dr. Ice to admit that he believed in 2 “epiphanies”, took him to task over “apostasia”, and discussed nicely the assumptions and circular reasoning of the pre-trib position, rather than just taking verses at their plain meaning. I was hoping to hear Dr. Ice explain why if pre-trib saints are raptured before the opening of the first seal to be with the Lord forever, they did not appear in John’s vision with the Angels, elders etc…The first description of saints in heaven does not occur until after the opening of the 6th seal..

  • Taryn
    Posted at 19:03h, 27 September

    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Nelson Walters
    Posted at 23:38h, 29 September

    Sam, I was hoping to hear Dr. Ice’s take on that as well. I have never heard an answer of any sort to that issue. Alan and I actually discussed that prior to the debate. However, I am sure the Holy Spirit helped Alan assemble the best material. God has used Alan mightily to help advance our understanding of his return. Alan’s faithfulness to prepare, travel, pay for, and expose himself to challenges in this debate are to be commended.

    Prayerfully, God will use Alan’s faithfulness in changing hearts and minds.

  • Jeanne T.
    Posted at 01:26h, 30 September

    Very good debate. I thought Alan handled the “apostasia” well, and also the context of scriptures cited. I plan to listen to it again.

    The pre-trib debate is sure heating up. Just this evening I came a recent discussion between Jacob Prasch, John Haller, and Joe Schimmel responding to Paul Wilkinson’s comments on their latest DVD “Left Behind or Led Astray?: Examining the Origins of the Secret Pre-Tribulation Rapture” at the Berean Call conference. (Disclaimer: I had never heard of Paul Wilkinson before this, and I haven’t seen the DVD in question. I’m only posting the link for the purpose of showing how contentious the issue is apparently becoming.) To be fair, a link to Wilkinson’s entire session is also posted in the description of the video. As you probably know Jacob Prasch never minces words. However, I thought the three of them responded in the right spirit in countering Wilkinson. (They hold to a post-trib view.)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiNjDYsHfh4#t=4231

  • Joel
    Posted at 01:46h, 30 September

    FYI, I am interviewed in the DVD in question. I had not heard of Paul Wilkinson before the attack. Which was one of the most venomous attacks on fellow brethren I have ever heard. That is saying a lot. He called me (and anyone who is not pre-trib) a heretic. He also lied quite directly about a few issues. I responded kindly in the comment section, hoping to bring clarity to my position (I do not think it is an issue to divide over) and he deleted not only my comments, but all comments. My suspicion is that he realized that the DVD is rather water tight and had nothing to apart from personal attacks. Its a shame. The Berean Call has become anything but Berean. It is actually somewhat cultic, essentially communicating that if you stick with us, we will protect you from all of the big bad heretics, which is basically everyone other than us.

  • Jeanne T.
    Posted at 02:11h, 30 September

    Joel,

    Jacob Prasch was hesitant to call Wilkinson a liar outright, because they know each other. They also addressed the fact that at a “Berean” conference Wilkinson is telling everyone not to watch their DVD! I really just came across this conversation quite by accident tonight, as I happened to see it on Prasch’s FB page. Joe Schimmel beautifully sums things up in the last five minutes of the discussion, explaining why we need to take Jesus’ warnings in Matthew 24 seriously.

    On another note, I watched a couple videos posted at Dr. Ice’s website of a debate between Dr. Mark Hitchcock and Hank Hanegraaff. I don’t know if you or Alan have ever reached out to Hank to do a debate. I thought his explanation of “exegetical eschatology” was a bit odd, to say the least. To me, “exegetical eschatology” is a method, not a viewpoint per se. He seems to bristle at being called a preterist.

  • Joel
    Posted at 02:17h, 30 September

    I say he lied, as he claimed I said that pre-cribbers are heretics. I never said anything of the sort. Not even remotely close.

    I invited Hank Hanegraaff to a debate. His manager said Hank is considering it.

  • Sam
    Posted at 02:52h, 30 September

    Thank you Nelson, I agree that Alan has really put some serious scholarship into the pre-wrath position. I have now read your book, “Are We Ready for Jesus?”, Joel’s book “When a Jew Rules the World”, Alan’s book “Antichrist Before the Day of the Lord”, and Barry Horner’s book “Future Israel”, and Marvin Rosenthal’s book on Pre-Wrath…..all of you have done a great service, and for that I am appreciative! Another topic which needs serious exposure, and which all of the aforementioned are addressing is the false teaching of replacement or “fulfillment” theology….it is something I teach on as well.

    I came to a pre-wrath understanding before I even knew there was a position, when I was studying what happened after the 6th seal….somebody else told me I was pre-wrath, and then I had to go read about it! Thanks for your insights!

  • Sam
    Posted at 03:04h, 30 September

    Another thought that has been bouncing around in my mind…..rather than referring to the entire 7 year period as the “tribulation”, I wonder if it would be better to refer to the entire 7 year period as “the 70th week of Daniel”, which is what it is….and to confine the use of “tribulation” to that time which begins after the Abomination of Desolation, otherwise referred to as the “great tribulation” in Revelations. This might make the understanding of the 7 year period more clear to those who are studying the Bible….I could well be wrong, but I dont know of a verse which refers to the entire 7 year 70th week as “the tribulation”. I suspect the use of the term in this manner is possibly the result of pre-trib teaching of the past.

    My preference is to refer to the 7 years as the 70th week of Daniel, and to confine the use of “tribulation” to that period which begins after the Abomination of Desolation

  • Joel
    Posted at 10:06h, 30 September

    Sam,

    Absolutely. That is technically accurate. No where does the Bible ever refer to the whole 7 years as the Great Tribulation. It begins with the Abomination of Desolation at the beginning of the final 3.5 year mark.

  • Sam
    Posted at 13:36h, 30 September

    Thanks Joel! Even the use of the term “pretribulation” in the manner it’s nomrally used, or “midtribulation”, reflects how the misuse of the term over time has insinuated itself, which I think lends itself to confusion. Believers mostly think in these terms, and if we were to use “pre-70th week” instead of “pretribulation”, most of them might be inclined to say, “What are you talking about?!”

  • Nelson Walters
    Posted at 13:38h, 30 September

    Sam, these are all excellent thoughts and questions. In my first book I used the term “The Tribulation” because I wanted that book to be more universal and “Tribulation” is the cutural term for the period. I prefer the “70th Week of Daniel” too. Jesus teaches that all of us will experience tribulation (John 16:33) in this world and that it is not restricted to the 70th Week. Great tribulation means “widespread” tribulation according to the Greek. I personally prefer the “Times of the Gentiles” (Luke 21:24) for the second half although there may be those who disagree. Jesus teaches us in Matt. 24:21 that there will be a great tribulation, but no where does he say it will last the entire last 3.5 years. In fact, he specifically says “those days will be cut short” implying that it will not extend the entire 3.5 years.

    Nelson

  • Sam
    Posted at 14:31h, 30 September

    Great stuff Nelson, thanks for your insights! By the way, I found your book to be excellent and clear!

  • linda keyes
    Posted at 16:50h, 01 October

    Jeannie T and Joel

    Wow, just watched the video of Paul Wilkinson you spoke of. All i can say is,
    goodness me. Really, Its scary how it has all become so divisive.

    To say you and others don’t have compassion for Gods people Joel, is complete nonsense. That he his part of a prophetical movement is unbelievable. For all the people that i have shared the truth of the rapture with, only one has not received it. Its not complicated. He should have spent more time in the Word, and less time in books.

    Keep up the good work Joel, we consider that you indeed have a pastor’s heart
    even if you are not one.

  • David Willliams
    Posted at 01:25h, 04 October

    The sad reality of this whole issue regarding pretrib/posttrib is the lack of using scripture to settle the whole matter.
    Many today totally disregard the words of Paul, Jesus, John and many of the prophets, they even totally ignore the very words of God in the Book of Revelation.
    God himself gave the words to Jesus and John to give to us.
    This whole matter of the Rapture alone needs to be addressed and it needs to be addressed by Scripture.
    Today the doctrines that are being taught are totally at odds to what Paul himself stated.
    Today the Rapture especially the Pretrib rapture is a massive doctrine and it is being taught as if it was a massive doctrine of Paul.
    The Truth is that it was not, Paul only used the common word rapture once in regards to us believers and that is found in 1 Thess 4.

    Paul placed it as being the last event, Paul was stating that we would be seized to meet Christ after the Resurrection of the Dead takes place.

    It is the Doctrine of the Coming of Christ that was taught and it was the Doctrine of the Resurrection of the Just that was taught.

    One Resurrection of the Just which is the First Resurrection and approx. 1000 years later the Last Resurrection and that is of the unjust

    To deal with the Pre Trib lie the tree needs to be cut away at the root, it is no good just trimming branches.

    The Truth is that Jesus must come first, then the Resurrection of the Just, then lastly the Rapture.

    Paul stated himself that Jesus will not come and will not gather us together to himself until the Apostasy and the Son of Perdition is revealed and that when the Son of Perdition is revealed then Jesus will Come and gather us to himself and Jesus will destroy the Son of Perdition at that SAME time.

    God told us when the FIRST RESURRECTION takes place in Rev 20 and that is exactly in Harmony with what Paul states, Jesus Comes, the First Resurrection takes place and the Beast and False Prophet are destroyed.

    Perfect Harmony.

    Also perfect harmony with Matthew 24 where Jesus tells us He will come after the Tribulation has ended.

    The Rapture event must be put into its right place and right timing.

    It is after the Resurrection of the Just and this Resurrection of the Just is the First Resurrection.

    There is an order to the Resurrection as told by Paul in 1 Cor 15 and that order is Jesus was the First of the whole Fruits and later when Jesus comes then the whole Fruit will be raised just as he was.

    This is the First Resurrection of the Whole Crop justified by Christ the Lamb of God that took away the sins of the whole world.

    The Glory should be Jesus and His Father and the Resurrection of the Just that will take place at His Coming.

    Not a common greek word Harpazo or rapture that was used 13 times in the New Testament.

    Satan trys to rapture the word of God out of a mans heart
    People tried to rapture Paul to make him safe
    People tried to rapture Jesus and make him king
    The Kingdom of God suffereth violence and the violent rapture it by force

    Rapture means to sieze and to move to another place.

    The Truth is that God will send Jesus, and Jesus will raise the Dead and Jesus will rapture us to the clouds so that He will begin His Judgement on earth.
    We will be immortal when He raptures us to the clouds.

  • David Willliams
    Posted at 12:54h, 04 October

    Thanks Jeannie.T for letting us know about the rebuttal video by pastor Joe Schimmel, John Haller and Jacob Prasch.

    I can totally recommend the DVD Left Behind or Led Astray and totally recommend also watching the Rebuttal video by the above men of God.
    Absolutely beautiful and true.
    Keep up the good work Joel, I certainly respect you as a Teacher and also as someone that cares for the sheep.
    Remain faithful to Gods word not to man.

  • Alan E. Kurschner
    Posted at 01:44h, 05 October

    Hi David,

    I wanted to note that the resurrection does not take place in Rev 20. That is recapping—and highlighting—the resurrection of God’s people that already happened between the sixth and the seventh seal.

    Alan

  • David Willliams
    Posted at 05:37h, 08 October

    Hello Alan,

    As with all prophetic books there is an overlaying of pictures, Joel, Daniel as well as Revelations follow this similar pattern.

    I would love to agree with you but as God himself stated that the First Resurrection takes place in Rev 20 when Jesus comes to destroy the Antichrist I have to first agree with Gods doctrine.

    Blessed and Holy is he that is in the First Resurrection as they will reign with Christ for the 1000 year period on this earth, then the second and last Resurrection, this first Resurrection is also the time where the Bride has made herself ready after 1000s of years and she is clothed in the Righteousnness of the saints.

    Also I do agree with you that the Resurrection takes place between the 6th and 7th seal as this overlaps with Rev 20 when the First Resurrection takes place as does the bowls and trumpets.

    Paul stated that there was an order to the Resurrection, Jesus first and all those in Christ at His Coming and Resurrection.

    Paul taught a Doctrine of two Resurrections as did Jesus and as did God and John.
    Resurrection of the Just and the Resurrection of the unjust.

    The rapture takes place when Christ comes for the First Resurrection as the Resurrection must take place before we are raptured to meet Jesus in the clouds as per 1 Thess 4

    I am aware of your view and enjoyed your debate

    Between the 6th and 7th seal, 6th and 7th trumpet and 6th and 7th bowl there is a very clear and similar picture and they harmonize beautifully.

    I would love to talk with you more on the issue, I have read your books and also enjoyed.

    I have no choice but to first uphold what God states regarding the First Resurrection and its timing. If He states it is the First then it has to be the First.

    Thank you for your response Alan

  • Alan E. Kurschner
    Posted at 14:51h, 08 October

    David,

    You said, “I have no choice but to first uphold what God states regarding the First Resurrection and its timing”

    This begs the question. Who is being more faithful with the discourse analysis and not reading presuppositions into the divine text to fit a preconceived theory.

    Revelation 20:4 is describing those who will reign with Jesus. They are the overcomers who “came to life.” It is _describing_ them, not making temporal claims. It is a misreading of the text to think that this is when they actually were resurrected, after Armageddon.

    This the source of the error to make the resurrection between the sixth and seventh seal “overlap” with Revelation 20. That results in mass confusion. I have written a piece showing that there cannot have overlap between these judgments, not to mention Revelation 20. You said, “Between the 6th and 7th seal, 6th and 7th trumpet and 6th and 7th bowl there is a very clear and similar picture and they harmonize beautifully.” Actually they do not harmonize at all and only results in a contortion of the narrative:

    http://www.alankurschner.com/2014/02/22/seals-trumpets-bowls-at-the-same-time-or-one-after-the-other-i-e-concurrent-recapitulation-or-consecutive-progressive/

    This is an issue that has caused many posttribbers to have strained readings of the book of Revelation. They begin with the presupposition that the resurrection occurs in Revelation 20 after the battle of Armageddon. Instead of seeing the main point in Rev 20:4-5 about them ruling with Christ for a 1,000 years, they focus on the resurrection aspect reading into some temporal action at that time. It is simply a _description_ of those who reign with Christ. I.e. “this is who they are” not “this is the timing of what happened to them.”

    Alan

  • David Willliams
    Posted at 00:59h, 09 October

    To Alan

    In Daniel as you go through the visions there is this constant mention of the Last Kingdom of God that is established by God, the Stone, the Ancient One, the Resurrection.
    A pattern soon reveals that the different visions etc are talking about the same events all over again but with greater detail and more focus on that very last ruler before Christ Comes.

    Likewise in Revelations with the seals, trumpets, bowls, interludes and the Coming of Christ in Rev 19 and 20 there is a pattern that is clearly seen between the 6th and 7th seal, 6th and 7th Trumpet and the 6th and 7th bowl.

    In chapter 6 regarding the 7 seals there is no mention of the Antichrist/beast, no mention of the Resurrection or rapture, no mention of the Tribulation but what we do have is the very clear picture of Matthew 24 regarding the Signs that are seen in the Heavens after the Tribulation period has been completed, Jesus clearly states that when those signs are seen in the Sky after the Tribulation has ended he will be at the door and about to Come, look up etc. There is also mention of the Wrath of the lamb ORGE
    I know that you agree with this as you focused heavily in your debate on these signs after the Tribulation.
    I also know that you focus strongly on 2 Thess 2 that Jesus will not come until the apostasy and the revealing of the Son of Perdition and that when Jesus comes he will destroy this Antichrist.

    Therefore when you look into the 7 Trumpets you see much greater detail regarding the 2 witnesses, the trampling of Jerusalem etc, at the 6th Trumpet mention is made of the Euphrates river drying up for the army to cross,in the 7th Trumpet we see that the Kingdoms become Christs and that God of Heavens Armies has begun to rule and that Jesus will rule forever it is interesting to note that in Rev 11:18 at the timing of the 7th Trumpet that there comes a time that the dead are judged, this judged word refers to a decision that is being made and it is interesting that this is the time when Jesus rewards the Saints, prophets and holy people, this is a beautiful picture of the First Resurrection as God is Judging or deciding who will be worthy to be raised from the dead, who will be changed to immortal, it is a time of rewarding, then we see Jesus judging those on the Earth.
    Again in Rev 14 14 to 17 we see the same picture where Jesus Harvests the ripe harvest of the earth before the angel comes and reaps the grapes on the earth and tramples the winepress on the earth.

    Again in Rev 16:12 when the 6th bowl is poured out the Euphrates dries up and the Kings etc and Beast and prophet head to war against the lamb. it is interesting to note that at this time in Rev 16:15 Jesus Himself states for us to be alert and to keep our clothes clean as He is Coming, He stated Blessed are those that are clean and alert.

    THe Wrath of God

    As to the Wrath of God mentioned in Rev 6

    Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
    I do not think that it is a coincidence that this Greek word G3709 orgḗ;

    Is only found in Rev 6:16-17, Rev 11:18, Rev 14:10, Rev 16:19 and Rev 19:15

    I DO NOT THINK IT A COINCIDENCE THAT THIS WRATH WORD IS MENTIONED BETWEEN 6th and 7th SEAL,6th and 7th TRUMPET AND 6th and 7th BOWL AND AT THE COMING OF CHRIST REV 19 and 20

    We are not appointed to the Wrath at the Coming of Christ, Joel clearly states that the Day of Wrath is after the Signs are seen in the heavens and Jesus clearly told us that the signs are after the Tribulation has ended.

    How long that time of wrath ORGE is we are not told but we clearly know from scripture that it happens after the signs are seen in the Skys which Jesus said is after the Tribulation is completely finished.

    Therefore I present an overlapping of Revelations to create the whole picture as does Daniel and Joel.

  • Alan E. Kurschner
    Posted at 13:33h, 09 October

    Hi David,

    You do not show any acknowledgement, let alone interaction, with my last comment, including my relevant link to our discussion here:

    http://www.alankurschner.com/2014/02/22/seals-trumpets-bowls-at-the-same-time-or-one-after-the-other-i-e-concurrent-recapitulation-or-consecutive-progressive/

    In your last comment you are committing—and posttribs are notorious for this—the common “Word=Concept” fallacy.

    Orge is just one of MANY terms to describe the day of the Lord’s wrath, not the only term.

    I have devoted an entire show on this:

    http://www.alankurschner.com/2014/11/05/avoiding-the-word-concept-fallacy-a-lesson-in-biblical-and-theological-interpretation-ep-12/

    You also cited Rev 16:15 as if that indicates that Jesus has not already returned. This verse is simply an exhortation to stay awake or you will suffer God’s wrath. You are wrongly reading a temporal action into this. I have written an article on this here:

    http://www.alankurschner.com/2014/08/11/answering-the-post-trib-interpretation-of-revelation-1615/

    See also my article here:

    http://www.alankurschner.com/2012/06/01/posttribulationism-and-the-word-concept-lexical-fallacy/

    I hope you will consult these articles.

    Thanks,
    Alan

  • Sam
    Posted at 01:44h, 10 October

    Brothers, we all see dimly in the mirror, one day we will see clearly…..I do not agree on everything with the person I am closest to in this world, my wife, even though we agree on 99% of things…..as Joel has stated in his blog, and in his videos, we all need to have humility and willingness to change our views, because we might just be wrong…there are unalterable truths on which we must agree, but right now we are all searching and have ideas about eschatology…the Spirit is leading us all in the same direction, we need to put our pride aside and be willing to be wrong…/grayheaded

  • Joel
    Posted at 02:21h, 10 October

    I have always been somewhat in between pre-wrath and post-trib, feeling as though the two views can somewhat be reconciled. Having listened to the debate between Alan an Tommy, I am much more persuade that pre-wrath has come the closest to articulating what the Scriptures do teach.

  • David Willliams
    Posted at 10:22h, 10 October

    Hello Alan
    It saddens my heart the way you have attacked my presentation as I in no way attacked you or your views, I actually spoke quite well of your books etc, we are free to present what we have seen and yes we are all dimly seeing.

    There are many views at present and as time draws nearer we will see, it is not to be a personal attack but an opportunity to see through others eyes.

    I am post trib just like you, I believe in Jesus second coming and then the rapture just like you.

    Love you Brother

    And also just so that you are aware, when I had posted my second post your post was not showing with the links etc, there may have been time delays as I am on the other side of the world.
    My second post was made just after your first short response, so please be considerate before you attack

  • Joel
    Posted at 10:44h, 10 October

    David,

    I am trying to avoid becoming a comment moderator, as I do not have the time to do so. In this case, I allowed it, as I find Alan’s information very helpful myself.

    For what it is worth, I did not see Alan’s comments as an “attack” in any way. He was expressing frustration with having felt essentially that his comments were ignored. Alan is presently completing his Ph.D., which is extremely taxing and time consuming, and I am sure that interacting with folks online is not ideal in terms of time allotment. So I understand his frustration. Whether or not you actually ignored his comments, I don’t know. I haven’t been reading your comments in full, but only skimming to make sure it was in the right tone, which it seems to have been. Thank you. But I do not think it is necessary to say anyone attacked you.

    And thanks Alan for the helpful links and comments. I am sure many do appreciate it as well who do not comment.

    Blessings,

    Joel

  • Alan E. Kurschner
    Posted at 12:45h, 10 October

    Hi David,

    I want us to talk with each other, not past each other. So not sure how you construed my comments as an attack. I hope we can challenge each other’s interpretation without calling it an attack. Nevertheless, thanks for reading my book, and I hope you do check out those links for further reading.

    Regards,

    Alan

  • DAN
    Posted at 11:40h, 11 October

    Hi Joel, David and Alan and others,
    Joel, I may have misunderstood you when you said “I have always been somewhat in between pre-wrath and post-trib, feeling as though the two views can somewhat be reconciled. Having listened to the debate between Alan and Tommy, I am much more persuade that pre-wrath has come the closest to articulating what the Scriptures do teach.” If you mean you are no longer between the pre-wrath and post-trib view, may I ask you to reconsider,? I do respect your opinion on prophetic matters as do many others I am sure, and I impressed by your Biblical scholarship in your books. I cannot believe how you bring such a unique, Biblically sound and simple insight into passages which have been looked at by so many others who didn’t see what you make so obvious. I do understand that the prewrath/postrib debate is not your main focus and you may not have had time to study it out but if now you are leaning more to the prewrath side, let me try to pull you and any others back from the precipice. I think the posttrib rapture position better fits with your principle of simplifying prophecy into one event. Also I do not see how Acts 1:9-11 can be harmonized with the prewrath position. Jesus will come back just as He left. He went straight up to heaven and will come straight back down to earth, not linger in the clouds for several years.
    In reading the above discussion between David and Alan, I see weaknesses in what Alan is describing. He says, “Revelation 20:4 is describing those who will reign with Jesus. They are the overcomers who “came to life.” It is _describing_ them, not making temporal claims. It is a misreading of the text to think that this is when they actually were resurrected, after Armageddon.
    First of all, when Alan claims there is no temporal claim in the passage, he not taking into account the context. The passage is Rev. 20 just after the description of Satan being bound and thrown into the abyss for 1000 years. Then John describes the first resurrection. There are some temporal indications: They do not come to life and reign with Christ for 1002 years (somewhere in the second half of Daniel’s 70th week), but come to life and reign during the same 1000 years as Satan is bound. The phase “until the thousand years were completed” in verse 3 applies to Satan’s confinement. The same phrase “until the thousand years were completed” is used in verse 5 is used to delineate the time of this first resurrection. “Until” is a time indicator. Alan should not try to remove the first resurrection from its context by saying “I wanted to note that the resurrection does not take place in Rev 20. That is recapping—and highlighting—the resurrection of God’s people that already happened between the sixth and the seventh seal.”
    Alan used a similar argument when trying to explain Rev. 16:15. “You also cited Rev 16:15 as if that indicates that Jesus has not already returned. This verse is simply an exhortation to stay awake or you will suffer God’s wrath. You are wrongly reading a temporal action into this. I have written an article on this here:
    http://www.alankurschner.com/2014/08/11/answering-the-post-trib-interpretation-of-revelation-1615/” In this article he misquotes the verse apparently trying to give a more favorable slant to the verse. Here is that misquote from the article: “So it is a mistake to read into the expression, “I come like a thief,” as meaning that he has not returned yet.” (Just above and again later in the article on the same page he had it correct “I WILL come like a thief”.) WILL implies that he has not yet come like a thief. Leaving the WILL out, seems to imply that it is just a description of how He comes, but WILL inserts the temporal component that he claims is not there. Why would this warning be given in the MIDDLE of the description of the 6th bowl. Alan claims that it is a parenthetical comment so it can applied to Christ’s parousia several years before. But just because it is parenthetical does not mean it can be removed from its context. If it is not related to the time of the 6th bowl it would be given after the description of the 6th bowl, not in the middle of it. Here again the context must be taken into account.

    In a previous post under Up For Debate Radio, with Dr. Tommy Ice I gave 10 questions for the prewrath rapture position from a post tribulational rapture position. (Alan partially tried to answer two of these questions.) With Joel’s permission I would like to repeat them here since it is pertinent to this discussion.
    1. Although the prewrath position answers many questions that the pretrib view does not, it still suffers the burden of explaining a few dubious duplications that the posttrib rapture unifies as one event.
    Unnecessary duplication of events:
    a. The Prewrath position should have three times believers are resurrected. The first resurrection occurs after the 6th seal at the prewrath rapture, then there should be one at the last (7th) trumpet according to 1Cor. 15.52, Rev 11.15, and then a resurrection after the 70th week of Daniel is over, Dan. 12:1-2, Rev. 20:4-5 and this final resurrection is called the “first resurrection”!?
    Since the posttrib position sees the seals, trumpets and bowls as overlapping (not parallel) and all ending together at the 7th seal, trumpet and bowl, all these resurrections happen after the end of the 70th week of Daniel-just one resurrection at the 7th trumpet.
    b. The Prewrath position has two times Christ’s advent is illustrated as being like the coming of a thief. At the prewrath rapture (somewhere after the middle of the tribulation), 1Thes 5.2, and again in Rev 16.15 where it is clear that Christ has not come yet like a thief at the time of the 6th bowl of wrath. They will say that this is a parenthesis in the 6th bowl (as pretribs do), and that the time period spoken of refers back to the prewrath rapture, but there is no evidence for this in the context of the 6th bowl. It just doesn’t fit their narrative (as with the pretrib position).

    2. Regarding the second half of Daniel’s 70th week:
    a. Are the number of days the antichrist is given authority to act cut short? Van Kampen in THE SIGN page 337 says the antichrist is “rendered useless” at the beginning of the Day of the Lord. But the Lord had given him 42 months to act, Rev 13:5.
    b. Won’t the two witnesses will prophesy for “1260 days”, Rev. 11:3. Is this just an idle promise, (made in approximately 95 A. D., ruffly 65 years after the statement from Jesus that the days will be cut short)?
    c. Hasn’t the outer court been given to the nations to tread under foot for 42 months, Rev 11.2? Is this 42 month period cut short, Matt. 24:22 ?
    d. It is not reasonable that two individuals, diametrically opposed to each other, are both worshiped and exercise authority at the same time. The antichrist would be exercising his authority freely during the day of the Lord. But Isaiah 2:11 says “the Lord alone will be exalted in that day”. The last part of Daniel’s 70th week (which prewrathers see as the day of the Lord) appears to be a continuation of the day of the antichrist which started in the middle of the 70th week since he is exercising his God given authority to overcome saints, etc. If it is the day of the Lord, God would be exercising His authority, not refraining from exercising His authority and permitting the antichrist to exercise his.
    If prewrath claimed that the above 3 1/2 years occurred during the first half of Daniel’s 70th week, they would avoid these problems. But claiming that these periods of time occur in the second half of Daniel’s 70th week causes the prewrath position a problem explaining the fact that God promises the antichrist authority for 42 months and then decides that, “for the sake of the elect those days must be shortened” and reduces the number of days granted for certain things to occur. Prewrath teaches that God severely restricts or “renders useless” (THE SIGN page 337) the antichrist thus revoking the authority He had just granted.
    Another explanation is needed for “cut short”, Matt 24.22 .
    Checking the Greek:
    2856 koloboo {kol-ob-o’-o}
    from a derivative of the base of 2849; TDNT – 3:823,452; v
    AV – shorten 4; 4
    1) to mutilate
    2) in NT: to shorten, abridge, curtail
    The first definition is to mutilate (ie to cut off). So if those days had been allowed to go on indefinitely no flesh would survive but they will be cut off, not permitted to go on indefinitely. But they will go on as long as God had said they would.
    3. Why at the 6th bowl of wrath does God say, “I am coming like a thief”?
    Rev 16.15 According to the prewrath view He already had come like a thief to start the day of the Lord and to rescue all believers from His wrath? (I don’t believe Rev. 16:15 is a parenthesis in the middle of the events of the 6th bowl that jumps back to the church before the 7th seal rapture. I do believe the rapture is at the 7th seal but that the 7th seal is after the 6th bowl.) For evidence that 7 is the Biblical number of completion see Gen 1. For evidence that the 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl all are simultaneous note the flashes of lightening, and sounds and peals of thunder, and the great earthquake that follows each of the seven seals, trumpets and bowls; 7th seal Rev 8.1-5 7 th trumpet; 1Cor 15.52 Rev 10.7 , 11.15-19 7 th bowl Rev 16.17-18 These repeated series of events remind me of the sun being darkened, the moon being darkened or turned to blood, the stars falling from the sky, and the powers of heaven being shaken in the 6th seal after the tribulation. The repetition of both of these series of events indicates that the same point in time has been reached.
    4. If NO ONE is saved after the prewrath rapture, why does the 6th bowl imply that there are those on earth who are blessed, staying awake and keeping their garments, Rev 16.15 ? And why do the bowls specifically target the wicked; Rev 16.2 “those who had the mark of the beast”, Rev 16.6 “those who poured out the blood of saints”, Rev. 16.9 “they blasphemed God” thus implying that those who do not have the mark of the beast or those who did not pour out the blood of saints will not be affected?
    On the other hand, If SOME ARE saved after the prewrath rapture, will they suffer the wrath of God or be protected from it? If they suffer it, prewrath must explain why John 3.36 doesn’t apply to them? If they don’t suffer it but are protected by God on earth as He protected Noah and Lot, then the need for a prewrath rapture has vanished because God is protecting His own on earth through the time of the outpouring of His wrath anyway. He might as well protect the entire church. Those saved after a prewrath rapture of believers still have the same promises of deliverance from the wrath of God that the church does. Or does the prewrath position believe as pretribs, that those saved after the rapture are not part of the church but part of Israel, or some hybrid group?
    5. The 5th seal Rev 6.10-11 tells us that God will REFRAIN from JUDGING and avenging the blood of saints until the LAST martyr is killed. This may be the killing of the two witnesses at the end of the antichrist’s authority to kill saints, but could be any other martyr. In either case, this verse implies that God’s judging, the essence of the day of the Lord, 2Pet 3.7-10 will be WITHHELD until the end of both: 1. the authority of the antichrist to act and kill saints, and 2. the time the two witnesses have to witness is over. Thus God’s judgment will not come until after the 70th week of Daniel is over, and the antichrist’s authority is over, and the time given to the two witnesses to witness has been used up.
    6. From Heb. 11.40 we learn that OT saints could not be made perfect without us. The posttrib rapture position indicates that both OT saints and we the church are made perfect at the same time-at the posttrib rapture. The prewrath position has OT saints WAITING to be resurrected until the first day of the Millennium (THE SIGN, pg. 297). If they could not be made perfect without us, how can we be made perfect without them? It seems consistent with the revealed character of God that we should not be made perfect without them if they cannot be made perfect without us.
    7. Rom 8.18-23 describes creation anxiously longing for the revealing of the sons of God (the rapture). Why? Because (v 21) creation will be set free from its slavery to corruption when the sons of God are revealed. But according to prewrath, after the revealing of the sons of God, creation is not relieved, but instead, hail, fire and blood are thrown to earth, a third of the earth is burnt up, a third of the trees are burnt and all the green grass is burnt up, all in the 1st trumpet, it does not get any better for creation as we get into the 2nd trumpet or the rest of the bowls. I think you get the point. Creation would not be eagerly awaiting the revelation of the sons of God if, just after that revelation, creation is subject to the seven trumpets and seven bowls. It would eagerly await the return of Christ. But according to posttrib, it would eagerly wait for the revelation of the sons of God because that is when Christ returns to set up His kingdom. Prewrath (as well as pretribs) would have to explain why creation is said to be relieved at a time when creation will experience the worst plagues ever. Posttrib offers a better explanation; that at the revelation of the sons of God, the earth will also be relieved from the plagues of Revelation and God will “destroy those who destroy the earth.” Rev 11.18
    8. According to Isa. 2.11 , 17 “the Lord alone will be exalted in that day” (from the context- the day of the Lord). Rev. 13:4-8 tells us that the antichrist will be worshiped by “all who dwell on the earth” for 42 month (the second half of the tribulation) which prewrathers have at least in part as the day of the Lord. So the prewrath position has the antichrist being worshiped during a time frame that the Lord ALONE will be exalted. God won’t share any part of His day with the antichrist, so the day of the Lord cannot start until the 70th week of Daniel is over.
    9. If the Day of the Lord starts just after the 6th seal and the seals, trumpets and bowls are consecutive, then why are there opportunities given to repent as late as the 5th bowl, since the Day of the Lord is being delayed until all who will repent do repent?
    2 Peter 3:9-10 “The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.” This tells me that the Day of the Lord is being held back until all who will repent have repented. But legitimate opportunities for repentance are available but rejected even as late as the 4th bowl, Rev. 16:8 , and 5 th bowl, Rev. 16:11 . So the day of the Lord will not begin until after at least the 5th bowl (which is consistent with the promise in the 6th bowl, Rev. 16:15 that He is coming like a thief, also given in 2 Peter 3:10 ).
    10. In Acts 1:11 The “two men” tell the disciples that, when Jesus returns He will come in “just the same way as you have seen Him go into heaven”. He arose from the earth and went straight up to heaven. He did not linger in the clouds for several years as pre-wrathers believe. So when He returns, He will descend from heaven directly to earth. He will not linger in the clouds for several years.

  • Alan Kurschner
    Posted at 19:52h, 11 October

    Hi Dan

    Thanks for your substantive response. I am going to write up a piece on my blog this week responding to them. You are functioning on typical flawed posttrib presuppositions, misusing language, and mischaracterizing prewrath on some points.

    Regards
    Alan

  • David Willliams
    Posted at 23:17h, 12 October

    A sad reality exists today, and that is that many and I say many are trying to create their own theory or doctrine. The Truth is this, it is not about whether it is post, mid, pre, pre wrath. It is all about Gods Picture, Gods Doctrine, Gods Word. God Himself has created this beautiful picture from beginning to end, He is the one that created each verse, each verse is like a puzzle piece, he has created these puzzle pieces and when those pieces are placed in the position that God had created it to be, we then see a beautiful view and He is Glorified, if we place or force a verse into a wrong position just because of our theory, the picture is distorted, God gets no Glory. When a person puts a puzzle together he or she starts with the pieces that are clearly visible and slowly we work at finding the next piece, as time moves on we start to see the picture.
    It is the same with the Picture of God, we must first of all put together the pieces that fit perfectly, no forcing, no jamming, no distorting.
    Let us all work together at putting these pieces together so as to get the true picture, the moment we elevate one piece higher that any other we distort the whole picture.
    The Puzzle is never completed and in its beauty until all are in its right and meaningful place.
    Let us start with the pieces that are very clear
    Jesus said that He will raise us at the last day
    Jesus stated clearly that the Tribulation will end and after it ends there will be signs that are seen in the heavens that will tell us when to look up.
    Jesus said that He will be Coming after the Tribulation has ended
    Jesus said that the wheat and tares will remain together until the harvest at the end of the age
    Paul said that there is an order to the Resurrection, Jesus first and later at His Coming all will be raised that are covered under His Blood
    Jesus taught of two Resurrections
    Paul taught of two Resurrections
    God taught of two Resurrections
    Paul said that Jesus will not come and gather us to himself until the Apostasy and the revealing of the Son of Perdition and also stated that Jesus will destroy the Antichrist at that same coming.
    For the Son of Perdition to be revealed means that all prophecies regarding him are fulfilled exactly as God has declared right up to the very day that Jesus destroys him.
    Paul stated that the Resurrection takes place before we are raptured, not the other way around.
    I remember what Joel Richardson always says and that is that we must always align ourselves with the Word of God, not the other way around.
    Let us as members of His body work together to elevate His Word, His Truth, His Picture so that He may be Glorified.
    We see dimly in a mirror as we also see dimly in a Picture Puzzle, but as we move along the Glorious picture is revealed, all to His Glory alone.
    Let us lay aside all of our own fleshly doctrines and theories and elevate His Word.
    Love to all in Christ

  • Cathy
    Posted at 20:52h, 14 October

    An observation:

    Do you want to know what the pitfalls of thinking you have prophesy mostly figured out is? You stop watching for what Christ does and start watching to see if your explanations are correct!

    If you don’t know the timing of the bus to arrive you watch for it. If you think you know the timing you show up at the last minute to catch it. But what if the bus is early for some reason? You miss it of course!

    God said he was going to shorten the time for the elects sake. What does that mean? It means that even though you might know the bus’ schedule, you might want to get there early and JUST WATCH FOR IT to come.

    Just sayin’

  • DAN
    Posted at 13:02h, 15 October

    Hi Alan, Sam, Neslon, David, Cathy Joel and others,
    In response to Alan who said I am “functioning on typical flawed posttrib presuppositions, misusing language, and mischaracterizing prewrath on some points.”
    I looked at Alan’s web page and saw the “flawed posttrib presuppositions” that I am functioning on. I have copied these here and have responded (my comments are in the brackets {} below). I am not sure how I am misusing language and am sorry if I have mischaracterizing prewrath, although I see from his discussion on Rev. 20 that his view is different from other prewrathers (Rosenthal) about the first resurrection. I do recognize that there may be minor differences among prewrathers as there are among posttribers also and I do not mean to argue against a “straw man”.
    From his web site he says,
    “I think there are some entrenched presuppositions in the posttrib framework that need to be challenged (and some have been here). Prewrath shares some affinity with post-trib, but there are important aspects in post-trib interpretation that fail to find biblical support. To name a few:
    • 1. The resurrection takes place in Revelation 20. {This is not uniquely a posttrib presupposition. That the first resurrection happens after the tribulation is the normal reading of the text. I have not heard of anyone other than Alan that takes this as occurring other than after the 70th week of Daniel, including prewrathers-see The Sign, by Rosenthal. This is how saints throughout history have understood Rev.20}
    • 2. The second coming begins in Revelation 19 {Same response as under point number one. I would say the second coming occurs, not begins.}It is a blink of the eye event with many consequences. The Day of the Lord begin with the rapture.)
    • 3. The second coming begins when Jesus physically comes to earth {Robert Gundry in The Church and the Tribulation, does an excellent word study showing that “descends” in I Thes. 4:16 means “a continuous uninterrupted descent from heaven to earth”. The same word is used describing the Holy Spirit descending like a dove on Jesus at His baptism, Matt.3:16, or the sheet coming down to Peter, Acts 10:11. I sorry, but I can’t find my copy of this book but I’m sure you could easily look it up in your copy under I Thes. 4:16 or better yet, redo the word study yourself.}
    • 4. The seals, trumpets, bowls occur concurrently {See a partial response under point 5 and 7 below.}
    • 5. The rapture happens at the seventh trumpet {1 Cor. 15:52 says that it happens at the “last trumpet”. To say that after the “last trumpet” 7 more trumpets sound makes me wonder how you explain the word last in I Cor. 15? The word “last” implies a series. What series of trumpets occur anywhere in prophetic Scripture BEFORE the 7 trumpets in Revelation. Also, the event listed under the 7th trumpet (Rev. 10:7 and 11:18) are consistent with a posttrib time frame and a posttrib rapture: 1. The mystery of God is finished, Rev. 10:7 (completion of the church); 2. Christ begins to reign (not sharing his reign with the antichrist who is still causing all who dwell on the earth to worship him) 3. “The time came for the” (righteous) “dead to be judged,” (or did they wait in the clouds for at least five months, Rev. 9:5, until this trumpet sounded to be judged); 4. “and the time came to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear your name” so again, according to prewrath we are raptured and wait at least five months until this trumpet sounds to be rewarded, even though Rev. 22:12 says Jesus brings His reward with Him; 5. “and to destroy those who destroy the earth-according to prewrath and the consecutive-progressive framework this happens at Armageddon which happens after the 7th bowl, not here at the 7th trumpet but according to the posttrib concurrent framework all these events happen after Daniel’s 70th week, or after the great tribulation.}
    • 6. Paul’s “last trump” refers to the seventh trumpet in the book of Revelation {see under point 5}
    • 7. The great tribulation is 3 1/2 years long. {Regarding a discussion above between Nelson Waters and Sam: (“Jesus teaches us in Matt. 24:21 that there will be a great tribulation, but nowhere does he say it will last the entire last 3.5 years. In fact, he specifically says “those days will be cut short” implying that it will not extend the entire 3.5 years.
    Nelson
    Sam says:
    September 30, 2015 at 2:31 pm
    Great stuff Nelson, thanks for your insights! ”)
    The antichrist will be “given…authority to act for 42 months”, Rev. 13:5 (which corresponds to the second half of Daniels 70th week-certainly the worst half) and among his actions “it was given to him to make war with the saints and overcome them”, Rev. 13:7. In other words he will be causing great tribulation on believers during the entire 42 months. The term “great tribulation” is not in Rev. 13 but the effect is certainly there. The “cutting short” was stated in the Olivet Discourse in about 30 A.D. but Revelation was written in 95 A.D. So I do not believe the cutting short applies to the 42 months that John is told about 65 years later. I hope this helps, Sam and Nelson.}
    8. The day of the Lord is a literal 24-hour day {No. I believe Day of the Lord begins with the posttrib rapture and extends at least through the 1000 year millennium if not forever, II Peter 3:10.}
    • 9. After the rapture, God’s people immediately descend to earth {See answer under point 3}

    I hope this gives satisfactory Scriptural evidence and support for posttribs “flawed posttrib presuppositions” and I encourage all to compare these two frameworks to see which one requires the fewest assumptions to fit with the text of Scripture. My description of the posttrib rapture and timeline can be seen at http://theposttribulationrapture.weebly.com/.

  • Joel
    Posted at 16:51h, 15 October

    Dan, when Alan says these things, please hear them through a technical and not derogatory lens. For what it is worth, I am convinced that those who hold post-trib or pre-wrath should work together, as the two views are about an inch different. We both believe the most important thing in this matter, which is that we will face the AC. We are both reviled by many who hold the pre-trib views and have been shut out for so many years. I do not believe the pre-trib issue is worth dividing over either, but certainly it is worth debating.

    Blessings

  • DAN
    Posted at 16:37h, 17 October

    Hi Joel,
    Thanks for the comment. I’m sorry if it sounded like I thought Alan’s comments were derogatory and not technical. His comments were direct and he didn’t mince words but I was not offended, nor did I intend any offence. If fact, that is why I quoted his own words, so I would not be rephrasing them and sounding offensive. And I was sincere when I apologized if I had misrepresented the prewrath position and was speaking against a “straw man”. But I did want to be direct, clear and also not mince words in my response. In addition I did want to address directly the points that Alan had made so that there would be no thought that we were talking past each other or that his points were being ignored (as was stated about David’s comments).

    I came out of a pretrib background (as I am sure many who agree with the “Islamic antichrist” view have) and in Bible school some friends introduced me to the posttrib position. I tested it for a long time and found it to be a better explanation than pretrib so I adopted it. When the prewrath position came out about 20 years ago I tested it and “found it wanting” for the reasons I have given in my two posts above. I did the same thing about 17 months ago with the “Islamic antichrist” theory and have adopted it. Having been rescued from the confusion caused by the pretrib view, (and now the Roman antichrist view) to now add the prewrath view to the simple but profound teaching of the second coming will only make prophecy a confusing topic once again when it need not be.

    I agree that prewrath and posttrib are brothers together in opposing pretrib, and both share many arguments in common against the pretrib view as I mentioned in my first post. In fact I found that I agreed with 8 of the 15 prewrath tenants on Alan’s web page. I especially appreciate and agree when he identifies the celestial events in Matt. 24 and Rev. 6 and that the gathering of the elect mentioned Matt. 24 refers to the rapture. And yes, we both teach that we must face the antichrist, and yes neither pretrib, or prewrath are doctrines to separate fellowship over.
    But John and the seven churches to whom the book of Revelation was addressed and who already knew that the great tribulation would be “cut short” (because if allowed to continue it would destroy everyone) were told that the antichrist would be given authority to act for 42 months and his actions included overcoming the saints and killing them, Rev. 13:5-7. I don’t believe that they could have taken this to mean that somewhere in the middle of the 42 months they would be raptured out of the hands of the antichrist. My appreciation of the authority of Scripture prevents me from staying quiet and not pointing out what I see as clear and obvious problems with the prewrath view. If I am misrepresenting the prewrath view I am happy to be corrected.

    We must be prepared to face the antichrist for the full great tribulation, 42 months, Rev. 13:5-7 (the second half of Daniels 70th week as explained in my posts above) before the rapture. I do not believe we will be removed earlier (either by a pretrib rapture or a prewrath rapture) because God wants us on earth to witness to those who will face eternal judgment. He is willing to allow the antichrist to torment and kill us (Satan’s wrath) just as He allowed the Devil to torment and kill His only Son, so that as many as will, will come to repentance, II Peter 3:9-10. We will be protected from God’s wrath as were Noah, Lot, the children of Israel in Egypt, by being covered in the blood of the blessed Lamb.

    I hope this clears the air regarding offenses and the healthy respectful debate continues. God bless you Joel, Alan, David and any others following these discussion.

    Dan

  • Joel
    Posted at 22:19h, 17 October

    Thanks for your comments Dan. Def. appreciated. Blessings!

  • Sharon
    Posted at 17:26h, 24 October

    Ok, first off I have to say that I’m just an ignoramus nobody, and certainly by no means an expert on the doctrine about the rapture.

    However, and I’m truly sorry if I seem to be stirring the pot here, (it’s not my intention), but what if the pre-trib rapture position does hold water IF we consider it to be a separate event to Jesus’s Second Coming, HOWEVER, it’s not going to happen in the way that the pretrib dispensationalists claim that it will? As in, the ones who will ascend/get taken up/caught up in the air with the Lord before the tribulation are not simply all Christians who believe in Him ie the Church (and conversely that Israel won’t be taken up until after the tribulation)?

    What if the ones who will be raptured pretrib are the saints, the real saints, and it doesn’t matter if they were born Jews or Christians or even Muslims, as long as they have been born again in the Holy Spirit and live their life completely and wholly and utterly in Christ in true righteousness and faith, avoiding all earthly temptations, who only live to serve the will of the Lord without wanting any material or spiritual rewards whatsoever, but only to give and bestow unto others selflessly and joyfully. THAT kind of saint. And only the Lord knows who such people are (Luke 16:15).

    I’m pretty sure that such saints would be as rare as hen’s teeth these days. And yet, they’re the kind of people that Lord Jesus appeared to after His resurrection – Mary Magdalene, His 12 apostles, over 500 disciples at once and others according to 1st Corinthians 15:6. The Lord did not appear to any unsaved people after He raised up from the dead. And so, to me they couldn’t possibly include all Christians ie those who claim that they believe in Jesus, but don’t live their lives fully denying their selves and taking up their crosses for Him every single moment of the day. Only a VERY select few would meet this criteria.

    Perhaps this is where the mistaken assumptions of the mainstream pretribbers lie?

    BUT for those who do live their lives in this way as saints of the Lord, the Rapture is a doctrine that’s given for their benefit to give them comfort as Paul says in 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18, as opposed to judgment that will be handed out after the 7 years of the tribulation, which is the time of Jesus’s Second Coming.

    So yes, what if the Rapture and Jesus’s second coming ARE two separate events?

    I’m sorry if I’m causing much eye-rolling here due to my profound ignorance. But I just wanted to clarify these matters with the good people here if possible.

    Can people see that the following points show the differences between the Rapture (R) and Second Coming (SC) of Jesus?

    At the Rapture, Jesus comes FOR His saints. (John 14:1-3, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17); At the SC, Jesus comes WITH His saints. (Zechariah 14:5, Colossians 3:4, Jude 14, Revelation 19:14)

    At the Rapture, the saints are caught up to meet Jesus in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) At the SC, Jesus’ feet touch the earth (Zechariah 14:4, Revelation 19:11-21)

    At the Rapture, the saints are taken up but unbelievers are left behind. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18); At the SC, the unsaved wicked (tares) are taken up, but the righteous (wheat, i.e., the tribulation saints) are left behind. (Matthew 13:28-30)

    At the Rapture, Jesus will gather His Bride, the saints, unto Himself in preparation of the Marriage of the Lamb. (Revelation 19:6-9); At the SC, Jesus will execute judgment on the earth and establish His Kingdom. (Zechariah 14:3-4, Jude 14-15, Revelation 19:11-21)

    The Marriage of the Lamb takes place in Heaven AFTER the Rapture of the Church. (Revelation 19:6-9; War on earth comes AFTER the Marriage of the Lamb at the SC when the King of Kings and Lord of Lords lays the smackdown on evil! (Revelation 19:11-21)

    The Rapture will happen in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (Blink. It’s over!). (1 Corinthians 15:52); The SC will be a slow coming. Everyone will see Jesus coming with great power and great glory! (Zechariah 12:10, Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7)

    At the Rapture, only those who are looking for Him (saints) will see Him. (1 John 3:2, 1 Corinthians 15:52); At the SC, every eye will see Him and those who have rejected Him will wail. (Revelation 1:7)

    Etc, etc…

    I don’t mind subscribing to the above pretrib rapture theory because I believe that there’s hope for redemption even to join the rapture pretrib, as long as people repent NOW and truly give their lives to our Lord Jesus fully and completely. It’s not too late. We could all be busy doing this instead of waiting for the AC to reveal himself and the tribulation to start, because if we did, we’d be saved from all of it. We’d be like Noah and his family being saved from the great flood. But only if we got busy repenting and turning to God in Jesus’s mighty name right now, and not simply assuming that we’re already saved and going to heaven.

    What if we’re supposed to realise that we still have A LOT OF WORK TO DO and that’s why we’ve been given the prophecies of the End Times? So that we can repent and perhaps have a hope of averting judgment? Instead of assuming that we will get judgment. Why not work hard on turning to Jesus and in the process, bring His light to the world and make it a better place??? AND be saved from seeing the end of the world as we know it to boot.

    Sorry again about my ignorant ramblings. Just felt that I had to put them out there. Joel, if you like you don’t have to publish this comment. But I’d greatly appreciate your thoughts if you can email them to me. Thank you! Much love and many blessings.

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