Debate: Pre-Wrath Versus Pre-Trib

I would like to call everyone’s attention to an upcoming, very important and exciting event. For the first time, two leading proponents of the respective rapture positions, Pre-tribulationalism and Pre-Wrath will debate. Dr. Thomas Ice, Founder of the Pre-Trib Research Center, and Alan E. Kurschner, of Eschatos Ministries will be holding the first such formal, public debate. If you live in the greater Dallas Ft. Worth area, be sure to plan on attending this truly historic event. Click here for more information.


  • Nelson Walters
    Posted at 19:38h, 21 August

    If you are not going to be in the Dallas area, Alan has informed me the event will likely be videotaped and the DVDs sold for a nominal fee; probably on his website and possibly on Dr. Ice’s.

  • BJ & Alisa
    Posted at 17:21h, 23 August

    Joel, is it okay if I post this article about you in WND?

  • Michael
    Posted at 00:53h, 26 August

    Another great video Joel. Thank you for your teaching. Keep up the great work.

  • David Willliams
    Posted at 03:35h, 27 August

    Thanks BJ and Alisa for your recommendation on the Video, I have ordered the DVD and am awaiting its shipment here in Australia.

    I believe this Debate will reveal the Truth in that many doctrines today are of man and not of God.

    It is so vital for us today to believe in the words of Jesus and Paul and of the Prophets, God is Truth and His word is Truth.

    In all of my studies in End Times I have not seen one verse that supports Pre Trib, all verses are misquoted and taken out of context and come crashing down.

    There is not one verse to support Pre Trib, Jesus Himself stated to not be deceived and clearly told us that he will be coming after the signs are seen in the Heavens and He said that these signs would be seen after the Tribulation has ended.

    Jesus said that of THAT day (24 hour period) of His Coming after those events are seen no Man knows, but Jesus said when you see all those things then look up as He is then at the door.

    Why man would believe against the words of Jesus is an amazing question.

    Good on you Joel for being involved in this Critical discussion.

  • Maria
    Posted at 20:12h, 27 August

    Can somebody please give me a well bible grounded reason(s) why pre-rap is wrong. I really want to understand.

  • Peter
    Posted at 04:50h, 28 August

    Maria, listen to Alan’s podcast. It’s really good and he talks about problems with imminency a lot.

  • Davy
    Posted at 20:16h, 28 August

    Dear Maria, I would also recommend Alan’s Podcast and here are some videos to watch! 😀

    Alan Kurschner

    Charles Copper

  • Caroline
    Posted at 16:25h, 31 August

    I so appreciate your work Joel. Am I the only one who thinks that if eminent teachers, who have been studying these things for years, cannot agree on the rapture, then maybe God doesn’t actually want the average person to be sure about it? He could have made it clear if He had wanted! I don’t really understand why He didn’t.

  • maria
    Posted at 14:28h, 01 September

    I`ve been asking myself the same question for so long now too Caroline. And it breaks my heart to hear us (God`s children) argue and beat eacht ohter on the haed with scriptures about it. Jesus said it so clear that He`s coming back for us and nobody can go around His truth. But it`s the when that causes so much divison and arguments 🙁

    Jesus saved me at the age of 18. In my early years with Him I was persecuted by my parents, the church in the country I come from was also persecuted by the authorities so I grew up as a Christian believing that persecution by the world is an unmissable part of our life as fallowers of Jesus. And I even saw it as a preparation for the tribulation period.
    For the last 7 years of my life I had become the perfect example of the lukewarm christian. But in His abundant grace and everlasting love for me, God visited me at the begining of this year and He woke me up. I felt such a strong urge to study end time prophesy and see what He has revealed to us in His word. And the hunger to know that turned in a strong hunger to seek Him first, to fallowship with Him and get my life in order. He restored unto me the joy of my salvation and set me on fire for Him and His kingdom.
    But the more I`ve studied and researched end time prophesy the more I started to think that the rapture is pre-trib. And I still believe that. But on other hand I will not be surprised, disappointed, feel let down or anything if it is not pre-trib. And I know that God will do exactly and very precisely what He had intended to do from the beginign and we`ll all have to just wait and see how and when He`ll do it.
    “9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, 10 but when what is perfect comes, the partial will be set aside. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror indirectly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known.” 1 Corinthians 13:9-12

  • Davy
    Posted at 21:28h, 01 September

    Hi Caroline,

    I also thought the same way, and used to be very hasty and worried, but God is sovereign, and all good knowledge and wisdom comes from him. He also gave us the scriptures and the prophecies for a purpose. Many are studying and trying to figure out the prophecy, especially in these days. There are so many troubling events happening in the world, but don’t get worried!

    “But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.” – ‭‭Daniel‬ ‭12:4‬

    I believe the church will gain knowledge at the right time. God will prepare us, and purify his church and his children. So I pray for the church to unite in the Gospel. My family and friends, colleagues (and some used to be enemies ^_^;) to see the light and walk in the truth, to hold the church and the missionaries outside making great effort, and for the mission he gave us while we stay on this earth! …and for Alan to win the debate, it’s a joke! I’ll pray for both to have wisdom. (wink-wink)

    “For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.” – ‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭3:14-19‬

    Exegitsu, Yellow-belt!

  • DAN
    Posted at 11:10h, 06 September

    Hi Maria. Thanks for your sincere desire to understand God’s plans for the future. Here are a few reasons why I believe that the post-tribulational rapture of the Church is the correct postion.

    1. The default position is post trib. Matt. 24:29-30 is very clear that the Lord will return after the tribulation. If He is also to return before the tribulation, where is this taught?
    2. Is I Thes. 4:13-5:6 describing a different event or the same event as Matt. 24:29-43? Look at these two passages side by side and see how many parallel ideas you find. I find at least 15. Ask yourself, do all these things happen twice? Remember, let Scripture interpret Scripture and that God is not the author of confusion. I Cor. 14:33
    3. Speaking of things happening twice, are there two last trumpets, I Cor. 15:52 and Rev. 11:15-18?
    4. Are there two first resurrections, one seven years before the resurrect called the first resurrection in Rev. 20:5 which is unquestionably after the tribulation?
    5. Is the sun darkened, moon turned to blood, etc. twice, before the Day of the Lord, Joel 2:30-31. (Pretribs say the Day of the Lord includes all the tribulation) and again after the tribulation, Matt. 24:29? And possibly a third time at the 6th seal Rev. 6:12
    6. Do we, the church get relief from persecution at a pretrib rapture or at the second coming, II Thes. 1:7-10 when the Lord comes with His might angels in flaming fire…?
    7. In II Thes. 2:1-8 our gathering together to Him will not come until the man of sin has been revealed by taking his seat in the temple of God, (which happens in the middle of the tribulation).
    8. All creation groans awaiting the redemption of our bodies… at a pretrib rapture after which the creation will experience the worst plagues it has ever seen: 1/3 of trees burned up, fresh water turned to blood etc. Rev.8:7-13? Or is creation anxiously waiting until these plagues are over after the tribulation?
    9. Why does Jesus bring His reward with Him (Rev. 22:12), if we are going back to heaven for 7 years?
    10. The pretribulational argument that there are ‘two phases’ to Christ’s coming (a Rapture and a later Second Advent) runs into difficulties with Acts 1:11, which nearly equates Christ’s Ascension to heaven with his Second Coming. Logically, the Second Coming cannot have two phases if the Ascension only had one. This eliminates two phases of His Coming with a 7 year interval.
    11. Likewise, heaven must “receive” or contain Jesus “until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time” 19 Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, 20 that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, 21 whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago. Most scholars see this “restoration of all things” as the one-thousand year reign of Christ on earth (as prophesied in the Old Testament) which begins just after the Second Advent. If Christ is to remain in heaven until this coming rule of His according to these verses (see also Hebrews 9:27,28), it would seem the next main prophetic event would be the Second Coming rather than Him coming 7 years prior to get the church, bring them back to heaven, and then leaving heaven for earth again as the pre-tribulational rapture position indicates.

    These are questions that the pretrib view needs to answer to be believed, and I have not found answers to these and more questions after years of asking.

    For a more reasons and a more detailed discussion of these reasons, and also a detailed time line with references for every point, go to my web site:

    I also posted here on Joels Trumpet some questions I raised with Alan Kurschner about the prewrath rapture, most of which questions also apply to the pretrib rapture, on a previous post (under Joel’s Trumpet up for debate with Tom Ice May 27 see comments #47-51) I hope this is helpful Maria.

  • JoToole
    Posted at 12:30h, 12 September

    It’s brilliant that this debate is going to happen! I for one see these debates as excellent opportunities for believers to see how their beliefs hold up to scrutiny and allow truth seekers to learn and grow. As long as the debate is in the right spirit (which I’m sure it will be) then it will be beneficial to all.

    I don’t want to give a whole pre-trib defence now but I’ll respond to just the first point of a post above that says:
    1. The default position is post trib. Matt. 24:29-30 is very clear that the Lord will return after the tribulation.

    Pre trib allows for 2 returns of Jesus. The first to get His bride (they meet Him in the sky) and the second to rescue the Jewish centric tribulation saints and fight the armies of the antichrist (this time Jesus’ feet touch down on the Mount of Olives). Does anyone reading the verses prior verses 29-30 in Matt 24 think Jesus is talking to the body of Christ as we know it today? Vs 16 speaks of fleeing Judea. Vs 20 speaks of praying that the flight does not occur on the Sabbath. These are simply not issues that concern today’s church. However it fits perfectly with Jesus speaking pre church age to Jewish believers of a time when once again Israel will be the centrestage of God’s work in the earth – complete with the 2 Jewish witnesses and the 144 000.

  • David Willliams
    Posted at 02:46h, 13 September

    Thanks BJ and Alisa for your recommendation Aug 23 rd of a video, I have just recieved it and watched it.
    Absolutely brilliant.
    One thing that I have noticed is that many talk about the Rapture and already have their minds made up by what they have been told, Yet they have never gone to the Word of God to see what is the Truth.

    Many and I say Many have never even looked in the New Testament to see what the Rapture word itself means, it is used 13 times in the New Testament. It means to be seized and moved it does not mean to be Resurrected.
    When one is willing to search the scriptures one will see that it is a common word used and that satan raptures, man raptures and God raptures.
    Paul places the Rapture in its proper context and proper sequence in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18.
    The Rapture comes after the Resurrection of the Dead and after the bodies of those in Christ are changed from Mortal to Immortal
    Jesus was Resurrected and much time later was Raptured to Heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father.
    The Resurrection precedes the Rapture, Pauls desire was to attain to be in that Resurrection, Paul, God, Jesus taught of a Resurrection of the Just and the Resurrection of the Unjust.
    God Himself in Revelations 20 tells us when the First Resurrection takes place, I believe God.
    Study the scriptures to understand what the Rapture means and what it does not mean and to see that it happens after the Resurrection.
    Resurrection first then Rapture.
    Thanks again BJ for your recommendation.
    All believers should purchase the brilliant DVD Left Behind or Led Astray
    There is not one verse in scripture that states Jesus comes before the Tribulation and not one verse that states that the Resurrection takes place before the Tribulation.
    I encourage all to open the word of God and check to see if what is taught is of God and in agreement with His word or is against His Word.
    God tells us when the First Resurrection takes place.

  • DAN
    Posted at 18:37h, 13 September

    Hi JoToole,

    I am glad to see you view a discussion of the timing of the rapture “as excellent opportunities for believers to see how their beliefs hold up to scrutiny and allow truth seekers to learn and grow.” Agree wholeheartedly.
    You asked, “Does anyone reading the verses prior verses 29-30 in Matt 24 think Jesus is talking to the body of Christ as we know it today?
    I do! I agree we should always keep the context of a passage in mind. In Matt. 24:6 “You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.”
    Early in the chapter Jesus identifies who the “you” is in this passage. It seems clear to me that it is the disciples as representatives of the church. Certainly those who are hated and killed because of Jesus’s name does not represent the Jews of the last 2000 years who, for the most part have rejected Jesus, their Messiah. The “you” does not change as you read through the chapter. Verse 15 continues, “5 “Therefore when you (the same group of people who saw nation rise against nation and were hated because of Jesus’s name, ie the church) see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, …” It continues with the same “you” in verse 32 “Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 so, you too, when you see all these things, [u]recognize that [v]He is near, right at the [w]door. 34 Truly I say to you, this [x]generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
    It seems to me that you have to come to this passage with the presupposition that it is not talking to the disciples as representatives of the church, or that somewhere in the passage it must switch from talking to the disciples as representatives of the church to the extremely small number of pre-church Jewish believers” as you said above, for this to end up talking about the Jews. I believe that they, as a nation, don’t even recognize Jesus’s name as their Messiah, let alone be hated because of it, until they see Him descending in the clouds. Zech. 12”9 And in that day I will [a]set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem,[b]the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. 11 In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the [c]plain of [d]Megiddo.

  • David Newell
    Posted at 23:08h, 13 September

    I was raised in a church that held the pre-trib position and have had a lifelong love for the study of eschatology. However, 26 years ago (long before I had even heard the phrase “pre-wrath”, I came to that way of understanding the timing of the rapture. For me, it was after an exhausted study of the word ‘tribulation’. I must admit that I have never read any published work that suggests what I discovered but let me throw this out there…
    I believe we can make a solid case that there is a unique 7 year period of time coming. It begins with the ratification of some kind of treaty between the anti-Christ and Israel. In the middle of that 7 years the anti-Christ reneges on that agreement most likely at which point he identifies himself for who he is. What the Bible doesn’t do ANYWHERE is call that 7 years “the tribulation”, “great tribulation”, or anything of the sort. In Matthew 24 when Jesus refers to the tribulation, he is not referring to the 7 years (Daniels 70th week). He is referring to a period of time WITHIN the 7 years (maybe the last half of it). To try and cram 7 years (and all that we know of that 7 years) into His text doesn’t make sense. Let’s stop calling the 7 years “the tribulation”.
    I am convinced that after the man of lawlessness is revealed, after the falling away (probably disillusioned pre-tribers during the time of great tribulation), the church will then be raptured when Christ returns as He describes in Matt 24:30-31. It is then that He begins to pour out His wrath upon this world. I was pre-wrath before I knew there was such a thing.

  • David Willliams
    Posted at 10:04h, 14 September

    Hello Dan and others on this forum

    Have a look at the following I think you will be amazed
    Many have translated verse 7 as taken out of the way but when you look at the Greek and all verses used with the words you will see that the proper translation for verse 7 is as follows

    2Th 2:3 Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, because that Day will not come unless first comes the falling away, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
    2Th 2:4 the one opposing and exalting himself over everything being called God, or object of worship, so as for him “to sit in the temple of God” as God, setting forth himself, that he is God. Dan. 11:36; Eze. 28:2
    2Th 2:5 Do you not remember that I told you these things, I yet being with you?
    2Th 2:6 And now you know the thing holding back, for him to be revealed in his time.
    2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness already is working, only he is holding back now, until it (comes out of the midst).
    2Th 2:8 And then “the Lawless One” will be revealed, “whom” “the Lord” “will consume” “by the spirit of His mouth,” and will bring to nought by the brightness of His presence. Isa. 11:4

    Look at a concordance
    G1096 used 672 times and consistant for 671 but in verse 7 it is not consistant they made it to appear as if taken or removed but it means to come into existence

    Same with G3319 used 61 times and consistant for 60 but in verse 7 it is not consistant they made it to appear as if something is in the way but it means to be in the midst of

    No confusion when translated correctly pure harmony

    2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness already is working, only he is holding back now, until it (comes out of the midst).
    2Th 2:8 And then “the Lawless One” will be revealed, “whom” “the Lord” “will consume” “by the spirit of His mouth,” and will bring to nought by the brightness of His presence.

    Reveals more of the AntiChrist that is to still come and he will appear out of the midst of people then he will be truly revealed

  • BJ & Alisa
    Posted at 10:30h, 14 September

    You’re welcome David Willliams.

  • David Willliams
    Posted at 23:04h, 15 September

    Hello BJ and ELISA or any others
    What are some other brilliant DVDs or Videos that you can recommend or excellent teachers regarding good Post Trib Teaching and also dealing with the errors of Pre Trib
    I am very much challenged at present in regards to this issue and cannot find any scriptural evidence to support the Pre Trib view but much scripture to support Post Trib Resurrection.
    Is there anyone that you are aware of that has taught on the subject of Resurrection of the Just and Resurrection of the unjust as it was Jesus, Paul, John, Daniel and Gods teaching
    Two Resurrections and in that sequence, Resurrection of the Just First and later the Resurrection of the unjust.
    Please assist
    Again Joel thank you for bringing up this issue

  • Willem van den Heuvel
    Posted at 18:08h, 04 October

    Mister Joel, on youtube: “Joel Richardson 2016 – Joel Richardson Part 2 – The Olivet Discourse Through Jewish Eyes”, minute 46:05 you refer to Matthew 24 vers 29 and 30, as the proof of that there will be no pre-rapture, not before the tribulation. People say that this could be the reason there will be a lot of people leaving the Christian faith (Matthew 24 vers 5), because God did not take them away like he did with Noah or Lot.
    My question to you is: What is the purpose for all of this: That the faithful will prevail? But is it culpable these people do not prevail? What does God want? Is it more fair to the not believers or the believers who are died anyway in the tribulation? Is it a contest of the most stubborn: the most headstrong people will win? And then what? Are those people stronger for the afterlife? Will the reign as better kings their kingdom? Do you see an answer to those questions?

  • Frederick W. Benyo
    Posted at 10:28h, 14 October

    What about the why question? The Philadelphia church is kept from the hour of testing because they met four conditions, its conditional. Rev. 14:15, Jesus’s puts in His sickle and reaps, when and because the harvest is ripe. His reaping is conditioned upon the harvest being ripe. Rev. 14:12 and the Philadelphia church are the same group of believers, the ripe harvest. Rev. 2, Ephesus, left their first love, 1 complaint against them. Phil., no complaints so they didn’t leave their first love. In the context of John 14:15 Phil. kept the commandments of God. The purpose of Rev. 14:12 is probably to identify these saints as the Phil. church. If interested read ‘Mechanics of the Rapture by Fred Benyo. Ask the Why question.

  • Joel
    Posted at 12:47h, 14 October

    The seven churches were historical.

Post A Comment