Up For Debate Radio, with Dr. Tommy Ice

If you did not have the chance to catch my recent discussion / debate with Dr. Thomas Ice on Up For Debate hosted by Julie Roys on Moody Radio then you can listen to it here:

http://www.moodyradio.org/radioplayer.aspx?episode=165779

54 Comments
  • Meire
    Posted at 01:38h, 28 May

    I knew this day was coming. I listen to this program as often as possible. I won’t miss this one.

  • Nelson Walters
    Posted at 02:12h, 28 May

    I am praying for clarity, a quick mind, patience, and love amongst brothers for both of you. Also for the truth of God’s Word to shine like beacon. Nelson

  • Maureen Martin
    Posted at 18:50h, 28 May

    Dear Joel:
    I would love to listen but being in London England don’t think I can tune in, but hopefully it will be posted onto YouTube.

    Anyway God bless you and other teaching this revelatory message such as Walid Shoebat. Suddenly it all makes sense!

  • Joel
    Posted at 19:19h, 28 May

    The archive will be posted for sure on the site.

  • Doug
    Posted at 20:54h, 28 May

    Hi Joel,
    This is exciting. I know you will be gracious in your responses and replies. So often this topic goes nowhere because of closed minds, approaches and arguments from both sides. Not being willing to listen and see how the other person interprets the Scriptures.

    I think this scheduled debate is very important for the body of Christ to see what the bible says, not what a popular teacher or book says.
    I was of the Roman persuasion for many years, but never felt comfortable with it.
    Seeing the ‘Assyrian’ verses and many others forced me to reconsider what the bible really teaches not just what popular teachers have taught over the years.
    I respect those who teach what I once believed though. I believed and taught it myself. It is important not to label them as heretics as some like to do. One lady recently labeled Pre-trib rapture believers as having committed the unpardonable sin. That’s taking it into crazy-land. But I’m sure you have seen and heard a lot of that.

    The timing of the Rapture is another important topic that the Church needs to be willing to discuss without getting mad at opposing viewpoints. The consequences are too important for the Church to close their eyes and ears.
    We must read the Word and rightly interpret what God is saying. It’s too late in the game to be stuck on our own dogma. What does God say?

    I pray the Lord will lead both of you as you have a civil and Spirit led discussion on this important topic.

    Doug

  • Joel
    Posted at 21:49h, 28 May

    Thanks Doug,

    I rarely see the fruit of debate in terms of really swaying anyone unless it is done with love and respect. Dr. Ice is a leading premillennialist voice and I have nothing but respect for his life work. I have looked to his writings many times. His outline of Matthew 24 has been very helpful in my own studies. All that to say, it is an honor for me to be able to have this discussion with him. Pray that it is beneficial and edifying for all who listen.

    Blessings,
    Joel

  • good4u
    Posted at 01:07h, 29 May

    Honest, godly men and women can have vigorous discussion as we all “wrestle together” the Word of God to understand the Most High with His intentions for mankind. All of us are at different levels of understanding and more importantly, godly application in our lives. Praying your vigorous discussion with Dr. Ice is productive for the participants as well as your listening audience and that the God of heaven is glorified.

    Blessings!

  • Pete
    Posted at 10:43h, 29 May

    A balanced view has always been a major concern with those involved in eschatology. We must never forget that revelation concerning eschatology is a continuous proces and we have not reached the end of the road yet. I am deeply indepted to people who through persistent teaching were able to bring a very much needed paradigm shift within the body of Christ. The most importants shifts in my opinion are the role of Islam and a sound refutation of the pre-trib. But through all these developments it is essential for anybody involved to remain open minded.
    The problem with any paradigm shift is that many times significant developments outside their scope are being neglected as an imported study-object.
    Just think about it, has God only a problem with the Islamic world, or is He deeply concerned with the apostate condition of Christianity in the west as well? What role does the relation between the Jewish people and the ‘gentiles’ in Gods purpose play to restore the Kingdom of God? Is there a connection between Christianity and Judaism on one hand and the reconciliation of the two sticks in Ezekiel 37? What about those 10 tribes, they just vanished!? Is there a connection? What significant powers in the WEST are at work to destroy Christianity!?
    I believe that judgment of the west (‘the house’) is imminent, concerning this I was deeply alerted when Stan Johnson interviewed Patricia Green in the ‘Prophecy Club’. She told about a revelation of the imminent danger of martial law and that because of this Obama won’t resign as president of the US in 2016.

    She wrote a book which convicted me again of her call as a prophet. For anybody whose ultimate desire is the restoration of the Kingdom of God I urge you to have a thorough look at it.

    The book is called ‘The Final Seven’, it can be bought at Amazon and iTunes (iBooks), but it is available for free at het website: http://drpatricia.com/books/the-final-seven/

    The interview wit Stan Johnson:

    http://tinyurl.com/oq2al47

    Shalom ‘Pete’.

  • good4u
    Posted at 16:57h, 30 May

    Hey Joel!

    Just got thru listening to the Up4debate show with you and Dr. Ice.! Just outstanding and interesting discussion! You both are mature believers who can put forth your viewpoints respectfully and still be Christian brothers. *hand clap*

    Blessings!

  • Roz
    Posted at 17:19h, 30 May

    The quote “your eschatology will determine your entire theology” is so true, which is why this topic is vitally important. It has in recent months ignited a fire within me for The Word, and stirred an urgency for the proclamation of the Gospel. After listening to the debate, I am more convinced than ever that you are rightly dividing the Word. Thank you Joel.

    When time permits, would you please comment on the the identity of mystery Babylon. America is a theory gaining in popularity. i personally don’t see it, yet those people spreading this are telling everybody to come out of her i.e. FLEE!

  • Taryn
    Posted at 17:36h, 30 May

    I am so proud of how graciously you behave in debate, Joel, most honorable samurai that you are. 😉

  • Joel
    Posted at 19:50h, 30 May

    Exegitsu.

  • Davy
    Posted at 20:16h, 30 May

    Hi Joel,

    After listening to your debate with Dr. Tommy Ice (it’s now on iPhone’s Podcast), I’m having some thoughts on the Dajjal… this wasn’t even in the topic of the debate, but it came up to me somehow when two of you were talking about Revelation 17 at the end.

    My question is: what if there’s a more complicated scenario for the islamic AC? Do you think there is a possibility that the Mahdi changes his course and becomes the Dajjal later on? Because we know that Islam’s Mahdi character is highly synchronized with our Antichrist figure, but the Muslims also has the Dajjal, which also seems very similar to the Bible’s description of the Antichrist. When I read Zechariah 11, it says “Woe to the worthless shepherd who abandons the flock! May a sword fall on his arm and his right eye! May his arm wither completely away, and his right eye become completely blind!” So what hapoens if the AC starts his courier as a Mahdi (and brings false peace, etc. not only to the Jews but maybe to the Muslim nations as well) and then he transforms to the Dajjal (in the middle of the 7 years, or after his deadly head wound? which I think it’s also talking about the nations, but… and my brain stops here!)

    I’ll be glad if you can correct me. Blessings!

  • Joel
    Posted at 20:36h, 30 May

    Davy,

    I couldn’t speculate on that. Unless it is in the Bible, it would only be speculation.

    Bless you!

  • Davy
    Posted at 20:52h, 30 May

    Okay, thanks! I should get some training on Exegitsu sometime! 😀

  • Tom Finley
    Posted at 21:50h, 30 May

    Of course it was hard to squeeze this debate in the time allotted. You did a good job, Joel. As I recall your book (MB) makes the “uttermost parts of the north” = Russia as a non-starter due to the same Hebrew phrase used elsewhere of Asia Minor. Wish you could have brought that up. Ice had a good comment about the conclusion of Ez. 39 (vs. 25ff). That probably is a time skip with similar thoughts in other chapters. The strength of your entire position is that the traditional and Biblical enemies of Israel are the neighboring countries. WHY are they against Israel? It goes back to Ishmael as presently reflected in that spirit of Islamic fundamentalist fervor.

  • Joel
    Posted at 22:15h, 30 May

    Tom,

    I was going to mention that Beth Togarmah, which virtually every Bible Atlas places in Turkey, (or partially in Armenia) is also referred to as being in “the uttermost parts of the north.” So as you said, this argument, although cited endlessly by the Gog-as-Russia proponents, simply falls flat.

    I would maintain that the events I described (God’s name will no longer be blasphemed, the Gentile nations come to know the Lord, Israel comes to know the Lord, God pours out His spirit on Israel, all of Israel’s captives are returned, etc.) are clearly tied within the text to the destruction of Gog and his armies. God tells Ezekiel to prophesy concerning the great feast of the birds and beasts who will eat the flesh of the armies, and then God specifically ties the events I listed as resulting from that defeat. As Ice mentioned, chapters 34-39 are cycles of oracles. 38-39 is a single oracle. The invasion that begins in chapter 38 is thwarted and the results are listed at the conclusion of 39. These chapters are not chronological. Chapter 36 concerns the resurrection of the dead, and not any past historical national regathering of Israel. If Ice claimed that chapter 36 concerned the historical national regathering, he would be guilty of the historicism that he tried to place on me. Needless to say, any consideration of the actual text rules out his claims that these effects are not integrally related to the defeat of Gog and his armies:

    17 “As for you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD, ‘Speak to every kind of bird and to every beast of the field, “Assemble and come, gather from every side to My sacrifice which I am going to sacrifice for you, as a great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel, that you may eat flesh and drink blood. 18 You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, as though they were rams, lambs, goats and bulls, all of them fatlings of Bashan. 19 So you will eat fat until you are glutted, and drink blood until you are drunk, from My sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you. 20 You will be glutted at My table with horses and charioteers, with mighty men and all the men of war,” declares the Lord GOD. 21 “And I will set My glory among the nations; and all the nations will see My judgment which I have executed and My hand which I have laid on them. 22 And the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God from that day onward. 23 The nations will know that the house of Israel went into exile for their iniquity because they acted treacherously against Me, and I hid My face from them; so I gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and all of them fell by the sword. 24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I dealt with them, and I hid My face from them.”’”

    Blessings Tom!

  • Doug Hanley
    Posted at 22:58h, 30 May

    Exegitsu.
    Sounds like a great T-shirt Idea!

  • Taryn
    Posted at 03:07h, 31 May

    Exegitsu. The only martial art of the Millennial kingdom.

  • Edward
    Posted at 09:36h, 31 May

    Excellent discussion, though I wish the moderator didn’t speak more than her two guests combined! After every break in the show, she would reintroduce the whole show, and talk about twitter, and future shows, then introduce the question she was going to ask, and on and on, till there was hardly any time for the guests to say anything. I really wanted to hear the two men engage each other, but the shortage of time limited that greatly.

  • DAN
    Posted at 12:11h, 31 May

    Seeing your reference to this debate on your web site and being a Moody grad, I couldn’t help but check it out. As always it was too short but you did a great job. I posted the following comment at that site (under “Why discuss the possibility of an Islamic antichrit”) in support of the Islamic antichrist theory.

    I have found in talking to people about this subject that we need to give them a lot of evidence all at once to get their attention. So I use this list of Biblical reasons summarized from your books to get their attention. Then I recommend your books for a fuller discussion of each point.

    Could Islam be the religion of the antichrist?
    In Luke 7:18-23 the disciples of John reported to him about all these things that Jesus was doing. 19 Summoning two of his disciples, John sent them to the Lord, saying, “Are You the Expected One, or do we look for someone else?” 20 When the men came to Him, they said, “John the Baptist has sent us to You, to ask, ‘Are You the Expected One, or do we look for someone else?’” 21 At that very time He cured many people of diseases and afflictions and evil spirits; and He gave sight to many who were blind. 22 And He answered and said to them, “Go and report to John what you have seen and heard: the blind receive sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the poor have the gospel preached to them. 23 Blessed is he who does not take offense at Me.”
    Jesus gave the disciples six evidences to tell John that should convince him that Jesus was the One. If the evidence being reported matched what the Bible had predicted, John should rest assured that Jesus was the One.
    Applying this principle to the question, “Could Islam be the religion of the antichrist?” I will refer you to three times as many Scripture passages which, while all may not apply only to Islam, when considered together, I believe they make Islam the most likely religion of the coming antichrist.
    1. Rev. 20:4 The antichrist will use beheading as a primary means of enforcing his will. Obviously Islam is the only world religion that has historically and is currently doing this.
    2. The spirit of the antichrist is to deny that Jesus is the Son of God I John 2:22-23, 4:3, 2 John 1:7
    3. The spirit of the antichrist is to deny that God is the Father, I John 2:22-23, 4:3, 2 John 1:7
    4. The spirit of the antichrist is to deny that God has come in the flesh. I John 4:3, 2 John 1:7
    In Islam saying that God had a Son or that God is at all to be compared with man (that God is a father, or that God became a man in Christ) is the worst sin you could possibly commit (called shirk).
    5. John 16:3 “But an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God.” As the Islamists kill people they cry “Allahu akbar” meaning “God is great”. Certainly they think they are doing service to God as they kill people.
    6. Dan. 2:40-43, 7:23 the fourth kingdom is said to be “as strong as iron, which breaks and smashes everything, so it will crush and break all the others (the other 3 kingdoms), or “the fourth kingdom …shall be different from all the kingdoms, and it shall devour the whole earth, and trample it down, and break it to pieces”, Dan. 7:23. This description fits Islam better than Rome. (Rome did not crush, trample and destroy the previous empires completely. They actually were a constructive force building roads (“all roads lead to Rome” and creating peace “Pax Romana “).

    The Islamic Caliphate did fully, absolutely, and completely conquered all the lands of the other empires. It also crushed the previous three empires culturally and religiously. The Ottoman empire changed the language or alphabet to Arabic, destroyed the culture of the previous 3 empires (recall them destroying the 3000 year old artifacts in the Mosul museum 2/28/15) and replaced the religion of the previous 3 empires, whereas Rome continued to permit Jews to worship freely as long as they did not revolt and Christianity prospered under Rome but has struggled for survival under Islam.
    7. Dan. 2:32-33 The fourth kingdom is said to be mixed, part iron, part clay. This fits well because in Islam we see the mixture of Shia and Sunni being an uncomfortable and unstable mixture.
    8. Dan 2:41 the three times “mixed” in the Aramaic text is actually the word “Arab”.
    9. “Those who fall will fall by the sword, by flame, by captivity and by plunder,” Dan. 11:33.
    This is just what we see in the news: Cutting peoples’ throats with swords, burning the Jordanian pilot and 45 others burned alive “ISIS burned 45 people to death in seized Iraqi town of al-Baghdadi,” women and children being taken captive and their goods being plundered.
    10. The antichrist (little horn) will not honor the God of his fathers (the God of Abraham, Ishmael, Esau-the true God.) Dan. 11:37-38.
    11. He will have no regard for the desire of women, Dan. 11:37. What religion so disregards the desires of women: It takes four female witnesses to equal one male witness, they have multiple wives, their women get no education, they cannot leave the house without a male relative escort, cannot go shopping without a male, can’t even show their faces or look at people in the eyes, they teach their children to want to become suicide bombers for Allah, etc. (Some say the desire of women is to bear the Messiah. Since they deny the incarnation that interpretation would also fit.)
    12. He will not honor any (other) god”, Dan. 11:37. (other than the god of force, see Dan. 11:38). This is just what Islam’s Shahada states: There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet.
    13. He will honor a god of force, Dan. 11:38. Throughout Islam’s history they have forced their beliefs on others. Talk about cramming your religion down someone’s throat? Either you believe or they slit your throat. That has been the history of Islam-to force people to believe, and then if you change your mind they kill you.
    14. Dan. 11:38-39 also shows that it is a religion. He does honor one god, and requires others to worship it him. (See also Rev. 13:8, 15.)
    15. Dan. 11:38-39, He honors a god of force. He will be monotheistic. (There are only three monotheistic religions in the world today, Christianity, Judaism and Islam.)
    16. He will take action against the strongest of fortresses, Dan. 11:24, 39. Remember 9/11 and other attacks against our country and other major world military powers: Britain, France, and Germany.
    17. He will seek to make changes in times, Dan. 7:25.
    When Islam is in control of a country they change from our calendar based on Christ to a calendar based on Mohammed.
    18. He will seek to make changes in laws, Dan. 7:25. They change from our laws based on the Bible to Sharia law.
    19. Rev. 17:10-11 describes 7 mountains or kingdoms, (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome (“one now is”), and the Ottoman Empire). The seventh kingdom is seemingly destroyed and then returns. The Ottoman (Islamic) empire started in about 1299 A. D. and existed until 1924. The ISIS group, and also Iran is trying to revive this Islamic empire or Caliphate.
    20. Daniel 9:26 The people of the Prince who is to come will destroy the city and sanctuary”
    Josephus records that the Romans hired provincials to fight for them and the Arab provincials actually did more destruction to Jerusalem in 70 A.D. than the Romans wanted done. (Flavious Josephus, The Complete works of Josephus, The Wars of the Jews bk3 chpt1, par. 3) also Taticus, the History, Eew Ed.ed., bk5.1 ed. Moses hadas; trans. Alfred Church and William Broadribb (New York: Modern Library, 2003)
    21. All of the countries specifically marked for judgment in the Day of the Lord, are currently Muslims countries. Numb. 24:14, 17-20, Isa. 25:8-11, Obed. 1:8,-10, 15, 17-20, Ez. 25:12-17, 30:1-5, Zeph. 2:3-5, 12-13, The return of Israeli captives is a clue that this is at the end of the tribulation. Luke 21:20-24, Ez. 38:25, Joel 2:32-3:1-4, Zeph. 2:8-9, 12-13, Is.34:5-9, 63:1-4 comp. with Rev. 19.
    Some objections to this idea briefly addressed:
    1. Over the centuries, many have postulated other people as the antichrist such as Nero, Hitler, Obama, etc, and this “crying wolf” so often has turned others off to the idea of even discussing the identity or religion of the antichrist. But I don’t think any previously proposed candidate comes close to fulfilling the Scriptural descriptions above as does an Islamic individual.
    2. If the antichrist does not come out of Islam, but comes from some new 10 nation revived Roman empire, then the (presently Islamic) nations that are said to come against Israel during the tribulation (# 21 above) must end up renouncing Islam (which they have followed for 1300 years) and joining some new and as yet undisclosed religion that fits the prophecies mentioned above. This seems highly unlikely in light of recent events which have revived the Islamic faith.
    3. Why study this at all? God wants us to be among those who have insight, Dan 11:33-34 By smooth words he will turn to godlessness those who act wickedly toward the covenant, but the people who know their God will display strength and take action. 33 Those who have insight among the people will give understanding to the many; yet they will fall by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plunder for many days. Dan. 12:3 Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. Dan 12:10 10 Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand.
    4. What difference does it make, we cannot change it for it is God’s plan? Ezekiel 33:6 “But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman’s hand.” Prov. 27:12 “A prudent man foresees evil and hides himself.”
    5. How could 2000 years of Christian teaching on this idea (that the antichrist comes out of Rome) be wrong? Possibly because the concept was concealed by God until the “end of time”. Dan 12:4, But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.” Dan 12:9-10 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time.”

  • Joel
    Posted at 13:08h, 31 May

    Dan,

    Excellent summary. Very well put together.

    Blessings!

  • Deb Allard
    Posted at 00:29h, 01 June

    Hi Joel,
    My husband and I listened to the radio on Saturday and caught the program with you and Tom Ice. We are very excited about your Israel centric view on Bible prophecy especially as it relates to end times. Could you please tell us what “mystery” Babylon is and why God calls it “mystery”? Is it going to be rebuilt in Iraq or is it going to be a place that is like Babylon only located elsewhere in the Middle East? Thank you for all of your teaching. It is so appreciated.

  • Gary
    Posted at 00:37h, 01 June

    Great debate Joel. Looking forward to seeing how Alan Kurschner will in his debate with Thomas Ice in September. I would say you gave better arguments despite my own biases toward your position already. Kurschner in recent posts gives some very sound compelling arguments for a pre-wrath positions. If Christ went to the greatest of suffering praying “make them one as we are one” I really don’t see how that can be one without some element of suffering as well. The pretrib position assumes unity in the Body as well. Do we remember brethren in chains these days so easily (Heb 13:3)? Here in the West we are spiritual wimps. It was reported last year after a five year survey 50% of clergy reported regular engagement with online porn. I never heard any message on tribulation as an act of sanctification on the worldly church but rather that the true church would be gone but that does not remedy the current situation with the persecuted church. I would assume all areas of persecution would find all prison cells emptied of Christians upon rapture. Thessalonians does not indicate such manner but that some sort of last test/choice initiating a falling away of some of those in the faith and in the act that the man of perdition will be apparent. Ice leaves to many questions unanswered to be honest.

  • Joel
    Posted at 02:13h, 01 June

    Deb,

    Mystery Babylon is a challenging matter. My first view is that it speaks of Mecca / Saudi Arabia. Upon first hearing this it sound profoundly novel. However, upon further investigation, it actually seems to hold more weight, IMO than other views. I deal with this issue in two sessions on my DVD Understanding the Times.

    Blessings,
    Joel

  • Troy Geddes
    Posted at 03:17h, 01 June

    Joel,

    Great job…. very interesting to have views contrasted like that. You simply nailed it time and time again. You made your points…and they landed well. I pray you keep getting more and more exposure…as you seem to be humble enough to keep it moving and expanding your influence is what it is all about now… stay calm… and keep on making your arguments. They are extremely strong and convincing. I hope Alan will be as clear when he debates the rapture… I hope he doesn’t get to bogged down in the scholarly area and just makes simple, solid arguments as you did. Praying for you often…wish I could go to Israel this year but can’t make it.

    God Bless,
    Troy

  • Joel
    Posted at 03:40h, 01 June

    Troy,

    Thanks much for the encouragement.

    I am confident Alan will be very effective. He has certainly put the time in on this issue, and has a very solid grasp of all of the various and relevant arguments.

  • David Roberts
    Posted at 08:03h, 01 June

    Joel,

    @28:45 Dr. Thomas Ice said,
    “Each one of these chapters, generally, deals with a topic.”

    I thought you might appreciate knowing that the original Masoretic chapter division (sedarim) for Ezekiel 38 starts at the last verse of ch. 37 (v28) and ends in ch. 39 at v21.

    So if we want to limit the oracle to this specific, but original seder, we have:

    1) the nations knowing the LORD when His temple is in Israel. 37:28
    2) the Turkish-Arab nations attacking Israel
    3) God not allowing His holy name to be profaned any more 39:7
    4) Israel setting their weapons on fire 39:9 which sounds exactly like, “He (Yeshua) will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.” Isaiah 2:4
    5) From 39:17 onward is the great feast when Gog and his army are eaten by birds and animals and is clearly the same event as Revelation 19:11-21.

    So if we limit ourselves to the original Jewish chapter, it’s still clearly about the Antichrist and the day of the Lord. Just thought I’d share that.

  • Henry
    Posted at 05:16h, 02 June

    Great job Joel! IMO, Ice did a poor job in responding to Eze.39 because, as Joel mentioned, the defeat of Gog results in the restoration of Israel, God’s holy name is no longer profaned, etc. This obvious conclusion escaped Thomas Ice.

  • Gary Chappelle
    Posted at 14:08h, 02 June

    The debate summarized both positions well. I do agree with you Joel regarding the somewhat cavalier attitude of those who hold a pre-trib view. This idea that we don’t need to watch for anything because we won’t be here is very dangerous. The Bible speaks of a great falling away, and if things don’t pan out the way they believe, I am worried that many will be caught unaware and be led astray. Keep up the great work.

  • Maureen Martin
    Posted at 17:41h, 02 June

    Dear Joel

    Thanks for posting. Excellent debate. You handled yourself very well I must say. I am pretty new to this paradigm shift. It has been about a month since being introduced to it, having believed the Eurocentric view for many years.

    What really cliches it for me is Mystery Babylon. I always had questions about the Catholic Church idea, never really made sense. But Mystery Babylon as Mecca. Saudi Arabia fits perfectly.

    In England I do not know of anyone that is teaching this I hope that the UK will be on your itinerary soon.

    I have just started reading Mideast Beast, excellent so far.

    Blessings
    Maureen

  • Ken
    Posted at 03:11h, 03 June

    Joel,

    I also am new to this view of the anti-christ. I listened to your debate with Mr. Ice and felt you did a good job. My question is this. Why would the Jewish people trust anyone with a muslim background, since they have proven themselves so untrustworthy for so long?

  • Joel
    Posted at 10:40h, 03 June

    Ken,

    Israel will be forced to enter into a covenant with the Antichrist. It could be out of necessity, r it could be that he initially represents himself as a better leader than others. But beyond this, there is no Scripture that says anyone has to trust anyone. Remember also that Israel has entered into numerous agreements with Muslims such as Arafat in the past. So it certainly has ample historical precedent. I hope this has helped answer your question.

    Blessings,
    Joel

  • Nelson Walters
    Posted at 13:09h, 03 June

    Ken,

    As additional followup, Daniel gives us this scripture about the early career of the Antichrist:

    In his place a despicable person (the Antichrist) will arise, on whom the honor of kingship has not been conferred, but he will come in a time of tranquility and seize the kingdom by intrigue. The overflowing forces will be flooded away before him and shattered, and also the prince of the covenant. After an alliance is made with him he will practice deception. (Dan. 11: 21-23)

    Although this passage isn’t 100% clear, it appears that after the AC seizes his Kingdom (probably the Assyrian region), “overflowing forces” are swept away before him including a prince of the covenant (a leader of Israel?) Immediately after this battle, an alliance is made. Is this the signing of the Covenant with Death? We see this through a glass darkly, but it appears that it may be.

    If it is, it places this famous treaty in a new light, perhaps it is signed after an Israeli defeat. Is Israel signing from a point of weakness rather than strength?

    The scripture is not crystal clear, but I think we will “know it when we see it” which is really the purpose of prophecy. If we have perfect knowledge in advance, it doesn’t require faith. And without faith, it is impossible to please God.

    Blessings, Nelson

  • Gary
    Posted at 18:54h, 03 June

    With Mystery Babylon I do think it means it means one specific place but with a subtle reference to many other metropolisis. The politics of self-protection and self grandiosity verses humility and trust in God governs many.

  • TM
    Posted at 00:01h, 04 June

    Joel,
    You guys could have used the entire time limit discussing Ezekiel 38/39. I was surprised Dr. ice didn’t challenge you about Israel “dwelling in safety and unsuspecting.” How could this be if the Gog War is actually Armageddon, which follows the Abomination of Desolation?

    Or, if Gog is the Antichrist, how come he gets buried in Israel, yet it says the Antichrist is thrown into the Lake of Fire. (I actually have come up with my own answers for both of these, but I’d rather here them from you. Thanks.

  • Joel
    Posted at 01:18h, 04 June

    TM,

    First, I already answered your questions in your previous post as “Paul” concerning the issue of Gog’s death and burial. See the following articles.

    https://joelstrumpet.com/?p=6328

    https://joelstrumpet.com/?p=2175

    Indeed Antichrist is killed when Jesus returns (Daniel 7:11; 2 Thessalonians 2:8) and is indeed buried in a mass grave (Isaiah 14:19):

    As for the issue of Israel living at peace, or seemingly living at peace, there are two very simple answers for this. One is that the prophecy spans a broad period of time, ranging from the time that the Lord places the very thought in Gog’s mind to invade, all the way to the return of Jesus. Did you know that the passage ends with God being on the earth, and in the land? So that alone would answer your question.

    But the second answer is simply that this “peace” is merely perceived. They are “unsuspecting” in that they have been deceived by the Antichrist’s initial claims to be peaceful. And of course the security is only perceived. After all if they are about to be invaded, then one cannot rightly say that this sense of security is genuine. This is like someone crouching outside your bedroom window about to crash through and kill you as you sleep in peace and security. Of course, this is in perfect keeping with what all the other prophets say with regard to the beginning of the career of the AC. For example, the AC is said to:

    In his place a despicable person (the Antichrist) will arise, on whom the honor of kingship has not been conferred, but he will come in a time of tranquility and seize the kingdom by intrigue. The overflowing forces will be flooded away before him and shattered, and also the prince of the covenant. After an alliance is made with him he will practice deception. (Dan. 11: 21-23)

    If you do not believe that Gog is the AC, then how do you explain the issues I challenged Ice with in Ezekiel 39:17 to the end of the chapter?

    Blessings,
    Joel

  • Joel
    Posted at 01:22h, 04 June

    TM,

    I already answered your questions in your previous post as “Paul” concerning the issue of Gog’s death and burial. See the following articles. Indeed Antichrist is killed when Jesus returns (Daniel 7:11; 2 Thessalonians 2:8) and is indeed buried in a mass grave (Isaiah 14:19):

    https://joelstrumpet.com/?p=6328

    https://joelstrumpet.com/?p=2175

    As for the issue of Israel living at peace, or seemingly living at peace, there are two very simple answers for this. One is that the prophecy spans a broad period of time, ranging from the time that the Lord places the very thought in Gog’s mind to invade all the way to the return of Jesus. Did you know that the passage ends with God being on the earth, and in the land?So that alone would answer your question. But the second answer is simply that this “peace” is merely perceived. After all if they are about to be invaded, then one cannot rightly say that this peace is genuine, but merely perceived. This is like someone crouching outside your bedroom window about to crash through and kill you as you sleep in peace and security. Of course, this is in perfect keeping with what all the other prophets say with regard to the beginning of the career of the AC. For example, the AC is said to:

    In his place a despicable person (the Antichrist) will arise, on whom the honor of kingship has not been conferred, but he will come in a time of tranquility and seize the kingdom by intrigue. The overflowing forces will be flooded away before him and shattered, and also the prince of the covenant. After an alliance is made with him he will practice deception. (Dan. 11: 21-23)

    Blessings,
    Joel

  • Joel
    Posted at 01:22h, 04 June

    TM,

    I already answered your questions in your previous post as “Paul” concerning the issue of Gog’s death and burial. See the following articles. Indeed Antichrist is killed when Jesus returns (Daniel 7:11; 2 Thessalonians 2:8) and is indeed buried in a mass grave (Isaiah 14:19):

    https://joelstrumpet.com/?p=6328

    https://joelstrumpet.com/?p=2175

    As for the issue of Israel living at peace, or seemingly living at peace, there are two very simple answers for this. One is that the prophecy spans a broad period of time, ranging from the time that the Lord places the very thought in Gog’s mind to invade all the way to the return of Jesus. Did you know that the passage ends with God being on the earth, and in the land?So that alone would answer your question. But the second answer is simply that this “peace” is merely perceived. After all if they are about to be invaded, then one cannot rightly say that this peace is genuine, but merely perceived. This is like someone crouching outside your bedroom window about to crash through and kill you as you sleep in peace and security. Of course, this is in perfect keeping with what all the other prophets say with regard to the beginning of the career of the AC. For example, the AC is said to:

    In his place a despicable person (the Antichrist) will arise, on whom the honor of kingship has not been conferred, but he will come in a time of tranquility and seize the kingdom by intrigue. The overflowing forces will be flooded away before him and shattered, and also the prince of the covenant. After an alliance is made with him he will practice deception. (Dan. 11: 21-23)

    If you do not believe that Gog is the AC, then how do you explain the issue I challenged Ice with in Ezekiel 39:17 to the end of the chapter?

    Blessings,
    Joel

  • Joel
    Posted at 01:22h, 04 June

    TM,

    I already answered your questions in your previous post as “Paul” concerning the issue of Gog’s death and burial. See the following articles. Indeed Antichrist is killed when Jesus returns (Daniel 7:11; 2 Thessalonians 2:8) and is indeed buried in a mass grave (Isaiah 14:19):

    https://joelstrumpet.com/?p=6328

    https://joelstrumpet.com/?p=2175

    As for the issue of Israel living at peace, or seemingly living at peace, there are two very simple answers for this. One is that the prophecy spans a broad period of time, ranging from the time that the Lord places the very thought in Gog’s mind to invade all the way to the return of Jesus. Did you know that the passage ends with God being on the earth, and in the land?So that alone would answer your question. But the second answer is simply that this “peace” is merely perceived. After all if they are about to be invaded, then one cannot rightly say that this peace is genuine, but merely perceived. This is like someone crouching outside your bedroom window about to crash through and kill you as you sleep in peace and security. Of course, this is in perfect keeping with what all the other prophets say with regard to the beginning of the career of the AC. For example, the AC is said to:

    In his place a despicable person (the Antichrist) will arise, on whom the honor of kingship has not been conferred, but he will come in a time of tranquility and seize the kingdom by intrigue. The overflowing forces will be flooded away before him and shattered, and also the prince of the covenant. After an alliance is made with him he will practice deception. (Dan. 11: 21-23)

    If you do not believe that Gog is the AC, then how do you explain Ezekiel 39:17 to the end of the chapter?

    Blessings,
    Joel

  • TM
    Posted at 02:30h, 04 June

    Joel,

    Thanks for your quick reply (all four of them). I knew I asked this question previously, but I thought it was to Shoebat. (Maybe I asked it of both of you.) I use TM almost all the time on blogs, but apparently my first name got in there. I wasn’t trying to be more than one person so apologize for the way it looks. Yikes!

    My wife completely agrees with your second answer, but I need more time to process everything you said.

    Btw, I’m sure you got some people rethinking their position as a result of this debate. You wee very well prepared and some of your answers were not even rebutted. That’s usually not a good thing. Like I previously said, still reading up and pondering the scriptures.

    Thanks again,
    TM

  • Joel
    Posted at 02:37h, 04 June

    TM,

    No worries. And my apologies as well. As you can imagine, I get tons of comments (that I do not post) from folks who like to argue for the sake of argument. (Eschatology can strangely draw out the most contentious among us, or perhaps I should say in all of us.) So its often hard for me to know when someone is genuine or not. So thanks for your response.

    In the end, every “prophecy teacher” will be wrong about numerous issues. My hope with folks like Ice is that they would simply be open to rather solid biblical case for the idea that the Antichrist could be a Muslim. That was essentially my point as well with the rapture. We need to be cautious and always prepared. I would rather be over-prepared than not at all.

    This is why I hope that Ice or some others would entertain the idea of having a more extensive live discussion / debate. I have been inviting Dr. Reagan (a major critic of mine) to debate for years. But to date, Ice was the first who was open to having the discussion. (for which I am grateful). But I really do think the Body of Christ needs to discuss these matters and weight the evidence for themselves. The urgency of the hour and all that is unfolding across the earth demands it.

    Blessings to you,
    Joel

  • TM
    Posted at 12:38h, 04 June

    Joel,

    No problem here. I love your articles, am buying your book, and appreciate your insights. I’m a former lawyer, now teacher, which means I have the summer off and I love to catch up on my studies of prophecy. My favorite topic of the Bible.

    You guys only briefly touched on the rapture. As of today, subject to change, I guess you could say I take a pre wrath position. I believe the rapture occurs before God unleashes his wrath, which to me seems to be during the 6th seal. And conveniently I interpret the raptures saints immediately after that in Rev 7:12. It works for me. I am always open minded to other interpretations, so that is why I keep studying.

    As for Who is Gog? Is he the Antichrist? This is where I am at now. Up until I began reading you and Shoebat, I would have said they were different people at different times. Now I am not so sure. So, I have ordered 3 books to immediately read- yours, Shoebat, and a guy named Richard Neal. I will read them and continue reading articles to try to figure all this out. Yeah, I know, I’ve been doing it for over 30 years. Good luck with that. Lol

    I will stay in touch, and expect to see me commenting on other articles. I love this web page.

    Your brother and friend in Yeshua,
    TM (Paul)

  • Joel
    Posted at 12:59h, 04 June

    Also pre-wrath myself. I usually qualify it with pre-wrath / post-trib.

  • Dr. Robert Young
    Posted at 21:24h, 04 June

    Joel,

    I have been in the process of writing a book for a long time now and below is a section on the issue of wrath in the Tribulation and if we as Christians will experience it. I would love to hear your comments.

    Another primary argument for a Pre-Trib Rapture is that the Church is not to experience the wrath of God, and that the Tribulation is a time of great wrath inflicted upon the human race. 1 Thessalonians 1:10 says we are not destined for wrath so according to Pre-Trib doctrine the Church must be taken out of the world.

    “…and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.”
    1 Thessalonians 1:10

    But should this be the only possibility? Could there be another answer? What about the multitude of Christians who come to faith during the Tribulation? Is it fair that they experience wrath while Christians that were Raptured do not? If Christ’s blood covers all Christians from God’s wrath then the saints in the Tribulation should be Raptured immediately upon conversion, if being saved from the wrath to come meant taken up to heave

    There are two other possibilities for interpreting this verse:

    God could deliver us just as He did with the Jews whom were spared from the plagues in Egypt while living in Goshen. The same could happen to Christians being spared from God’s wrath in the Tribulation. Many of the Scriptures in Revelation which deal with the plagues of God’s wrath specifically state they will be poured out on unbelievers, not the saints. If Christians do die from some of the plagues, earthquakes, and wars of the Tribulation does it necessarily mean they experienced God’s wrath? Through the ages Christians have died from nearly every possible catastrophe. Christianity has been built on the blood of the martyrs; all of the twelve apostles were martyred with the only exception being John.

    The fact remains that God’s wrath has been in existence to this very day.

    For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
    Romans 1:18

    God is a just judge, And God is angry with the wicked every day.
    Psalm 7:11

    In the world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world”.
    John 16:33

    The argument could be made that there has been God’s wrath present at times since the fall of man in the Garden of Eden. Examples could be Sodom and Gomorrah and the plagues of Egypt as stated above. The saints were not raptured but preserved during those periods. However, the Tribulation will be much more intense, and yet we have no Scriptural or historical reason to believe that Christians will be Raptured prior to this period.

    The second possible interpretation sees the Tribulation as primarily man’s and Satan’s wrath, with God’s wrath occurring only at the end of that period. The understanding is that we are not going to experience His final wrath that is administered at the end of time (Rev. citation). This wrath of the Final Judgment leads to sending the demons, Satan, Antichrist, and unbelievers to the Lake of Fire, which according to Revelation, occurs one thousand years after the Tribulation cite. What is clear is that Christians who are atoned for by the blood of Christ will be exempt from God’s wrath at this time of Final Judgment. Again, Christ’s blood will save us from the ultimate wrath of God, the Day of the Lord, at the end of the Tribulation when the Rapture and first resurrection occur, and when He repays the unbeliever with wrath.

    Robert

  • Joel
    Posted at 01:29h, 05 June

    Robert,

    Agreed. All around.

    Blessings,
    Joel

  • DAN
    Posted at 13:16h, 05 June

    I would like to add a few thoughs to what Robert just posted and sensing from your post above (I usually qualify my postion as prewrath/posttrib) that you Joel (and maybe many others) have not totally made up your mind on this yet, I have a few quesitons for the prewrath rapture position from a post tribulational rapture position.

    1. Although the pre wrath position answers many questions that the pre trib view does not, it still suffers the burden of explaining a few dubious duplications that the post trib rapture unifies as one event. I believe the chart below correctly portrays the pre wrath position as compared to the post trib position. The first verse reference in the chart below applies to the pre wrath presence of the Lord and the second reference applies to His appearance later in the DOTL according to pre wrathers, while both references apply to His coming at the 7th seal, the 7th trumpet, and 7th bowl according to posttrib.

    Event Prewrath Posttrib Bible Reference
    Resurrection
    of believers
    Two, with the second one 1Cor 15.52, Rev. 20:4-5
    one called the “first
    resurrection”

    Last Trumpets two one 1Cor 15.52, Rev 11.15

    Saints are
    rewarded twice once Rev 22.12, Rev 11.18

    Christ’s advent
    is illustrated as
    being like the
    coming of a thief. twice once 1Thes 5.2, Rev 16.15

    2. Regarding the second half of Daniel’s 70th week:
    a. Are the number of days the antichrist is given authority to act cut short? Van Kampen in THE SIGN page 337 says the antichrist is “rendered useless” at the beginning of the Day of the Lord. If so, the antichrist could complain to God that He was untrue to His word, since He had given him 42 months to act, Rev 13.5.
    b. The two witnesses will prophesy for “1260 days”, Rev 11.3. Is this just an idle promise, (made in aproximately 95 A. D., ruffly 65 years after the statement from Jesus that the days will be cut short)?
    c. Hasn’t the outer court been given to the nations to tread under foot for 42 months, Rev 11.2? Is this 42 month period cut short, Matt. 24:22?
    d. It is not reasonable that two individuals, diametrically opposed to each other, both exercise authority at the same time. The antichrist would be exercising his authority freely during the day of the Lord. The last part of Daniel’s 70th week (which prewrathers see as the day of the Lord) appears to be a continuation of the day of the antichrist which started in the middle of the 70th week since he is exercising his God given authority to overcome saints, etc,. If it is the day of the Lord, God would be exercising His authority, not refraining from exercising His authority and permitting the antichrist to exercise his.
    If prewrath claimed that the above 3 1/2 years occurred during the first half of Daniel’s 70th week, they would avoid these problems. But claiming that these periods of time occur in the second half of Daniel’s 70th week causes the prewrath position a problem explaining the fact that God promises the antichrist authority for 42 months and then decides that, “for the sake of the elect those days must be shortened” and reduces the number of days granted for certain things to occur. Prewrath teaches that God severely restricts or “renders useless” (THE SIGN page 337) the antichrist thus revoking the authority He had just granted.
    Another explanation is needed for “cut short”, Matt 24.22.
    Checking the Greek:
    2856 koloboo {kol-ob-o’-o}
    from a derivative of the base of 2849; TDNT – 3:823,452; v
    AV – shorten 4; 4
    1) to mutilate
    2) in NT: to shorten, abridge, curtail
    The first definition is to mutilate (ie to cut off). So if those days had been allowed to go on indefinitely no flesh would survive but they will be cut off, not permitted to go on indefinitely. But they will go on as long as God had said they would.
    3. Why at the the 6th bowl of wrath does God say, “I am coming like a thief”?
    Rev 16.15 According to the prewrath view He already had come like a thief to start the day of the Lord and to rescue all believers from His wrath? (I don’t believe Rev. 16:15 is a parenthesis in the middle of the events of the 6th bowl that jumps back to the church before the 7th seal rapture. I do believe the rapture is at the 7th seal but that the 7th seal is after the 6th bowl.) For evidence that 7 is the Biblical number of completion see Gen 1. For evidence that the 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl all are simultaneous note the flashes of lightening, and sounds and peals of thunder, and the great earthquake that follows each of the seven seals, trumpets and bowls; 7th seal Rev 8.1-5 7th trumpet; 1Cor 15.52 Rev 10.7, 11.15-19 7th bowl Rev 16.17-18 These repeated series of events remind me of the sun being darkened, the moon being darkened or turned to blood, the stars falling from the sky, and the powers of heaven being shaken in the 6th seal after the tribulation. The repetition of both of these series of events indicates that the same point in time has been reached.
    4. If NO ONE is saved after the prewrath rapture, why does the 6th bowl imply that there are those on earth who are blessed, staying awake and keeping their garments, Rev 16.15? And why do the bowls specifically target the wicked; Rev 16.2 “those who had the mark of the beast”, Rev 16.6 “those who poured out the blood of saints”, Rev. 16.9 “they blasphemed God” thus implying that those who do not have the mark of the beast or those who did not pour out the blood of saints will not be affected?
    On the other hand, If SOME ARE saved after the prewrath rapture, will they suffer the wrath of God or be protected from it? If they suffer it, prewrath must explain why John 3.36 doesn’t apply to them? If they don’t suffer it but are protected by God on earth as He protected Noah and Lot, then the need for a prewrath rapture has vanished because God is protecting His own on earth through the time of the outpouring of His wrath anyway. He might as well protect the entire church. Those saved after a prewrath rapture of believers still have the same promises of deliverance from the wrath of God that the church does. Or does the prewrath position believe as pretribs, that those saved after the rapture are not part of the church but part of Israel, or some hybrid group?
    5. The 5th seal Rev 6.10-11 tells us that God will REFRAIN from JUDGING and avenging the blood of saints until the LAST martyr is killed. This may be the killing of the two witnesses at the end of the antichrist’s authority to kill saints, but could be any other martyr. In either case, this verse implies that God’s judging, the essence of the day of the Lord, 2Pet 3.7-10 will be WITHHELD until the end of both: 1. the authority of the antichrist to act and kill saints, and 2. the time the two witnesses have to witness is over. Thus God’s judgment will not come until after the 70th week of Daniel is over, and the antichrist’s authority is over, and the time given to the two witnesses to witness has been used up.
    6. From Heb 11.40 we learn that OT saints could not be made perfect without us. The posttrib rapture position indicates that both OT saints and we are made perfect at the same time-at the posttrib rapture. The prewrath position has OT saints WAITING to be resurrected until the first day of the Millennium (THE SIGN, pg 297). If they could not be made perfect without us, how can we be made perfect without them? It seems consistent with the revealed character of God, that we should not be made perfect without them if they cannot be made perfect without us.
    7. Rom 8.18-23 describes creation anxiously longing for the revealing of the sons of God (the rapture). Why? Because (v 21) creation will be set free from its slavery to corruption when the sons of God are revealed. But according to prewrath, after the revealing of the sons of God, creation is not releaved, but instead, hail, fire and blood are thrown to earth, a third of the earth is burnt up, a third of the trees are burnt and all the green grass is burnt up, all in the 1st trumpet, it does not get any better for creation as we get into the 2nd trumpet or the rest of the bowls. I think you get the point. Creation would not be eagerly awaiting the revelation of the sons of God if, just after that revelation, creation is subject to the seven trumpets and seven bowls. It would eagerly await the return of Christ. But according to posttrib, it would eagerly wait for the revelation of the sons of God because that is when Christ returns to set up His kingdom. Prewrath (as well as pretribs) would have to explain why creation is said to be relieved at a time when creation will experience the worst plagues ever. Posttrib offers a better explanation; that at the revelation of the sons of God, the earth will also be relieved from the plagues of Revelation and God will “destroy those who destroy the earth.”Rev 11.18

    8. According to Isa. 2.11, 17 “the Lord alone will be exalted in that day” (from the context- the day of the Lord). Rev. 13:4-8 tells us that the antichrist will be worshiped by “all who dwell on the earth” for 42 month (the second half of the tribulation) which prewrathers have at least in part as the day of the Lord. So the prewrath position has the antichrist worshiped during a time frame that the Lord ALONE will be exalted. God won’t share any part of His day with the antichrist so the day of the Lord cannot start until the tribulation is over.

    The prewrath position does make significant improvements over the pretribulation rapture position, and in fact it is a version of the posttribulation rapture position, but I feel it still falls short of a satisfactory explanation of the revelation we have.

  • Alan E. Kurschner
    Posted at 03:05h, 07 June

    Hi Dan,

    Thanks for your questions. I have answered just about all your post-trib objections at one time or the other on my website over the past few years. A simple search will find your answers:

    http://www.alankurschner.com/

    In addition, just this past week I finished a two-part series responding to the most common post-trib interpretation of the book of Revelation. You can hear this on my podcast:

    http://www.alankurschner.com/37

    I hope you will consider this argumentation. And I would invite you to read my book Antichrist Before the Day of the Lord. If you choose to consult these sources, feel free to contact me at my site for any further questions or clarification.

    Regards,

    Alan

  • Dr. Robert Young
    Posted at 15:27h, 10 June

    In Acts the Word says that Jesus will remain in heaven until the final restoration of all things. The restoration of all things is obviously in the Millennium and not the Tribulation. Christ will return at the DOL after the Tribulation. This has been the belief of the early church and with clear and direct scriptureI I humbly contend that it should be ours.

    Acts 3:21New Living Translation (NLT)

    21 For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets.

  • DAN
    Posted at 04:41h, 11 June

    Hi Joel,

    It was great to meet you and be able to ask you some questions in person in Indiana. I am still digesting your novel view of Babylon being Mecca. It certainly seems you again have the Biblical evidence for this position, although as you said, it is not an essential part of the Islamic Antichrist position .

    Hi Alan,

    Thank you for taking the time to comment on my questions for the prewrath rapture position. I did look at the web pages you linked to but did not find answers to all my questions. You did extensively argue for a consecutive understanding of the seals, trumpets and bowls, (a part of my 3rd question above) to which I would ask, since Matt. 24:29-30 says these celestial events (sun darkened, moon turned to blood etc, happen “immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days” (which, in context, is after the great tribulation, Matt. 24:21 ie post tribulationally and after the 7th week of Daniel 9) and Rev. 6 has the same events at the 6th seal, then the 6th seal must be after the tribulation (consistent with the post trib rapture view) or else the events given as a time reference in Matt. 24:29-30, Joel 2:29-30 and Joel 3:14-15 happen twice-somewhere past the middle of the tribulation and again after the tribulation, (unless I am misunderstanding the prewrath view). Thus, with the prewrath consecutive view, there isn’t enough time for a 5 month long fifth trumpet after the tribulation.

    I did not know how to search through your web page to find answers to the other 7 points I raised above. It would be helpful if you would like to address each of the questions I raised in order, labeled something like :answer to question #1, etc.

    Also allow me to add another question (number 9). If the Day of the Lord starts just after the 6th seal and the seals, trumpets and bowls are consecutive, then why are there opportunities given to repent as late as the 5th bowl, since the Day of the Lord is being delayed until all who will repent do repent?

    2 Peter 3:9-10 “The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
    10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.” This tells me that the Day of the Lord is being held back until all who will repent have repented. But legitimate opportunities for repentance are available but rejected even as late as the 4th bowl, Rev. 16:8, and 5th bowl, Rev. 16:11. So the day of the Lord will not begin until after at least the 5th bowl (which is consistent with the promise in the 6th bowl, Rev. 16:15 that He is coming like a thief, also given in 2 Peter 3:10).

    Again, thank you Alan for taking the time to address these questions.

  • Alan E. Kurschner
    Posted at 19:42h, 11 June

    Hi Dan,

    To quickly answer some of your question.

    “says these celestial events (sun darkened, moon turned to blood etc, happen “immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days” (which, in context, is after the great tribulation, Matt. 24:21 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] ie post tribulationally and after the 7th week of Daniel 9)”

    This is an assumption on the part of the posttrib view that the great tribulation is 3 1/2 years in duration and completed at the end of the 7 year period. Posttribs make the wrong assumption that since Antichrist’s authority is 3 1/2 years in duration, the great tribulation against the church must be that long.The Great Trib is cut short with Jesus’s return to judge the world. Furthermore, it leaves no duration for the wrath of God that begins after the great trib is cut short. Again, this has been addressed in length.

    “I did not know how to search through your web page to find answers to the other 7 points I raised above. It would be helpful if you would like to address each of the questions I raised in order, labeled something like :answer to question #1, etc.”

    I do not have time to address each of your objections here. As I mentioned before I ahve addressed most of them in one form or the other. I also have a contact page where you can write in a question or leave a recorded message where I would be happy answer it on the video program: Bible Prophecy Answers.

    I have a search engine on my website where many of your questions are answered. So please look carefully.

    But let me answer a couple of your questions right now. On the thief metaphor in Rev. 16:15:

    http://www.alankurschner.com/2014/08/11/answering-the-post-trib-interpretation-of-revelation-1615/

    Also, you said:

    “If the Day of the Lord starts just after the 6th seal and the seals, trumpets and bowls are consecutive, then why are there opportunities given to repent as late as the 5th bowl, since the Day of the Lord is being delayed until all who will repent do repent?”

    I answer this in my book Antichrist Before the Day of the Lord, so please refer to this primary prewrath literature.

    In addition, prewrath does not say that anyone cannot repent during the day of the Lord’s wrath. So that is a misunderstanding of prewrath. It is just that it will be the gracious exception of God, not the norm. The texts that you cited show the “hardness” of man’s heart, not the “opportunity” to repent.

    I hope this helps, Dan.

    Alan

  • DAN
    Posted at 12:33h, 13 June

    Thanks Alan for your response to my question about Christ coming like a thief after the 6th bowl.

    I did try again to search your site using Bible references (Rom 8:18, I Cor 15:52 and other references as well as searching for 7th trumpet rapture- all with no results.) I doubt if others reading these posts will go to as much trouble trying to find your answers as I have and I could not locate them. Again, I suggest (not just for me but for others who may be interested), that you show web links to these questions here on this page.

    I do have a 10th comment also. In Acts 1:11 The “two men” tell the disciples that, when Jesus returns He will come in “just the same way as you have seen Him go into heaven”. He arose from the earth and went staight up to heaven. He did not linger in the clowds for several years. So when He returns, He will descend from heaven directly to earth, not linger in the clowds for several years.

  • linda keyes
    Posted at 15:17h, 13 June

    Just thinking out loud here, and not meaning to interfere but i have to say that Dan made some very good points. I personally think his point regarding the Day of the Lords wrath being withheld until the full number of saints die,Rev6:10-11 is a really good point.

    I find that Zech 14 definately ties the day of the Lord to the actual physical return of Christ, “Behold the day of the Lord cometh…..and his feet shall stand on that day…”

    Rev 6 says that after the heavens depart, the kings of the earth hide in the rocks from the face of him that sits on the throne and the wrath of the lamb… We know its a day of darkness ect, yet the pre wrath theory would say
    that in midst of all the wrath of God being poured out….the wicked people in Jerusalem will be having a party and giving out gifts, celebrating the death of the two witnesses. To be honest i cant see that.

    I do think however(for what its worth), that as Isa26:20 says we will be “off” the earth for a little moment. haven’t sorted that bit out yet(maybe i never will). I do think it will be after the 70th week for the same reasons as Dan. ( i cant at this time articulate it, but i believe it all fits in to Daniels extra days)

    Its all good. Thanks Joel for allowing me to make comment. Gods Blessings on all.

  • Jeff Pomeroy
    Posted at 21:54h, 14 June

    Joel,

    I love the debate and the new perspective you have brought to Christian prophecy. You are truly inspired by the Holy Spirit and a watchman for our time.

    I was curious of your take on the Muslim “Sufyani” and how it relates to what we are currently seeing in the Middle East. I don’t believe I have heard or read your take on this and is a term which I just recently came across and was wondering if you find it relevant?

    May the Blessings and Protection of our Lord Jesus Christ be upon you and your family as you continue to fight the good fight.

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