The cult of Erdogan

I found these references quite fascinating:

As Erdogan addressed the crowd from the platform, a woman was seen fainting. Erdogan gesticulated as if saying “bring her over.” Instead of being taken away by ambulance, the allegedly sick woman was taken to Erdogan. The stretcher was elevated to the platform and Erdogan reached out to the woman. She grabbed his right hand with both hands, screaming “Allah, Allah, Allahu Akbar” (God is great). The screams were heard clearly both at the venue and in the live TV broadcast because Erdogan still had the microphone in his left hand. The footage of the incident hit the Internet media with the tag, “The woman who recovered after holding Erdogan’s hand.”

The extraordinary qualities his followers attribute to Erdogan stem from his Islamism. That is, Islam is the source of the exceptional. Back in February 2010, the AKP’s provincial chairman in the western province of Aydin, Ismail Sezer, found himself expelled from the party after he said, “Erdogan is like a second prophet to us.” Yet, others who have validated our proverb with respect to Erdogan have not faced any sanctions. Here are some of many examples:

Finance Minister Mehmet Simsek on Erdogan’s visit to the southeastern province of Sanliurfa on March 9: “Spring has come to Sanliurfa. Both nature and history are rising up to greet our prime minister.”

AKP lawmaker Fevai Aslan on Jan. 16: “Erdogan is a leader who gathers all of Allah’s qualities in himself.”

Deputy Health Minister Agah Kafkas on May 19, 2013: “To do what Erdogan does is sunna [body of Islamic custom and practice based on Prophet Muhammad’s words and deeds].”

AKP lawmaker Huseyin Sahin on July 20, 2011: “Believe me, even touching our prime minister is worship to me.”

Read the full story at Al-Monitor

56 Comments
  • Steve M
    Posted at 14:36h, 07 August

    Is this guy really all that over there? Amazing how he’s barely mentioned in our media. Sounds like a combination of our president and a televangelist.

  • David W. Lincoln
    Posted at 18:09h, 07 August

    Actions for mass consumption are part of the tactics used by those who want a following.

    When it comes to Erdogan, I side with Caroline Glick in wondering why Turkey is still in NATO.

  • Zachary
    Posted at 19:56h, 07 August

    So…this could be the guy? Erie regardless.

  • Steve
    Posted at 22:25h, 07 August

    He reminds me of one our old presidents, “slick willy” i believe he was called- with a dash of TV preacher/healer. 🙂 Hum…AC in the making?

  • Jeanne
    Posted at 23:24h, 07 August

    People were fainting at 0bama rallies, too. No wonder he likes Erdogan.

  • Laurel
    Posted at 20:30h, 08 August

    “Erdogan is a leader who gathers all of Allah’s qualities in himself.”
    (One of the names of allah is ‘The greatest of all deceivers”.)

    That video of him in a giant holograph literally gave me a chill up my spine…

    PS. What is Adnan Oktar take on Erdogan?

  • Jeremiah
    Posted at 00:43h, 10 August

    Very clearly the spirit of AntiChrist is growing in the world. You can almost hear that first seal of the scroll being ripped off with these comments. Come quickly Lord Jesus!

  • DL Kennedy
    Posted at 04:03h, 10 August

    It is interesting. Turkey’s defense minister says Turkey will not intervene militarily against the IS fighters or aid the US, citing the hostages taken by IS from the Turkish consulate in Mosul. I’m not sure I believe that, though. Since Erdogan is Sunni and al-Baghdadi is Sunni, don’t they ultimately have similar goals? Or are they ‘competing caliphs’? Considering Erdogan’s cultish followers, and the fact that he is also Sunni, he does seem a possible peace-broker between Israel and IS forces in the future. I can see Erdogan as a possible candidate for the Assyrian.

  • Casey
    Posted at 05:49h, 10 August

    Saw a video of him on Furnishing’s site. The impression was of wanting to be an East meets West type president. Values are slipping in the West more and more Illinois is now looking at banishing SOCE counseling. As a result, the Eastern bears are aligned to devour much. Russia is already telling our leaders “see I told you” so about what was happening Assyria.

  • Jeanne
    Posted at 12:36h, 11 August

    I don’t know how many you are familiar the website linked to the right, http://the.mysteryofisrael.org, but they have online Saturday evening discussions which area accessible on YouTube. I’ve been listening to their past convocations, which they hold in Madison OH in September, and have begun listening to their Saturday evening online get-togethers as well.

    This past Saturday’s discussion revolved around Habakkuk, “Though the Vision Tarry, Wait for It”.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dJDvocNlns

    The entire session lasted 2 hours and 15 minutes, but if you scroll until you reach the 1 hour, 3 minute mark (1:03) you’ll hear a discussion about dreams that two individuals (one of whom was present at Saturday’s session) had last week on the same night, almost parallel in their content. Shortly after the 1:19 mark, Adam recounts part of the dream he had. Here is the transcript:

    “So the Lord really drew near to me, and almost vocally, it was almost like audible. He said ‘Adam, my return is nearer than people think.’ And that really just took me back, and it actually brought weeping to me. And I had this vision. First I heard this sound of the angels clamoring with armor. That’s what I heard first. And then after that I then had a vision of the angels very soberly putting on war armor, prepared for war. They war preparing for war, and they were determined. He’s sending His angels to war on our behalf. And we have to enter that war with the Lord. That’s what we’re here for, ‘such a times as this.'”

    I hope everyone takes the time to listen to the entire discussion. It really affected me; as Adam recounted his dream, I also began to weep. It has caused me to realize that there are many things in my own life that are not really that important. But sobering up and preparing for the days ahead is of utmost importance. Sharing the Gospel is of utmost importance. Getting into God’s Word, and praying is of utmost important. There is nothing more important than preparing for the troubling days that are going to cone upon us and Lord’s return.

  • ajax
    Posted at 18:23h, 11 August

    hey joel, could you write more articles on what is happening in the middle east now. Would really appreciate it. Thanks and God bless.

  • Gabe
    Posted at 19:37h, 11 August

    Good primer article on why Erdogan’s victory yesterday was so critical for the region. He is positioning his new office to remove the last vestiges of dissent in the Turkish high court system and parliament.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/editorials/the-new-sultan-erdogans-triumph-makes-drift-towards-authoritarianism-more-likely-9660483.html

  • WBPound
    Posted at 21:26h, 11 August

    Do people honestly think this guy could successfully negotiate peace in the region? No way. He is way too vocal about hating Israel. The real AC is going to rise to power as an apparent man of peace. Erdogan may have a cult following, but that doesn’t mean he’s going to be the AC.

  • Joel
    Posted at 21:28h, 11 August

    WBPound. Who says he is the Antichrist? I have said many times that I do not believe him to be so.

  • Adamant
    Posted at 09:16h, 12 August

    If the following MEMRI news is true, Erdogan at least until recently was supporting ISIS with practical means:

    http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Islamic-State-fighter-Turkey-paved-the-way-for-us-369443

    Whether he is still likes them, now they have become the “Caliphate” or IS, remains to be seen.

  • jean dean
    Posted at 09:32h, 12 August

    Hey Joel ~

    All of this clamor over Erdogan, people fainting, healings, god-like worship, etc., is so reminiscent of the days of Hitler it is erry! Erdogan even looks like Hitler! The evil spirit of Hitler that has risen straight out of hell and embodied Erdogan, that’s for sure.

    I think we have only just begun to see what this man is capable of, and what his evil plans are; for Israel, and for other nations, in his insanely driven madness and thirst for absolute power over all!

    The Holy Spirit, years ago, seem to say to me … “Watch this man!” “Beware of him!” Things like that. The Holy Spirit also, about that same time as He was pointing out to me, Erdogan, began to have me delve into anything and everything related to Hitler, Nazim, and the Holocaust. Up until this point in time, I had very little interest in the things. I understood what these things were, and were all about, however, I could never stomach them, so, I avoided seeing things, and/or, reading things about them. But, the Holy Spirit changed ALL of that, and I began to read and look everything I could find on these matters. At the same time, He had me study, closely, things relating to Prophecy and Turkey.

    ANYWAY, Erdogan is a dangerous man. And, we need to WATCH HIM closely. He may not be the A/C, but, End Time matters are going to involve him greatly!

    The world is not the same world we knew yesterday, and tomorrow, it’s going to be even worse. We need our Savior, Yeshua/Jesus, more than we have ever needed Him. DRAW CLOSE TO HIM, and STAY THERE! PERIOD! Bring as many folks with you unto Him as possible. THAT’s what it’s ALL about.

    Love your blog, Joel. Please keep us posted, as much as God gives you, and THANK YOU! jd<

  • Steve
    Posted at 13:00h, 12 August

    Hey Joel,
    “Rise of IS:An Iteractive Guide”, is a pretty neat little video over at BBC.com, Mid-East News. 🙂

  • Dirk
    Posted at 13:42h, 12 August

    “The real AC is going to rise to power as an apparent man of peace. ”

    I don’t see any scripture that says Antichrist will be an “apparent man of peace.”

    Rather, I see the following verse: “And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many”

    This doesn’t require Antichrist himself to be thought of as being peaceful. What if Antichrist is a conqueror who signs a limited peace treaty and then cancels the treaty? That scenario doesn’t require anyone to consider Antichrist as a peaceful person.

    I think that people thought of as “peaceful” are generally considered such by their supporters while people called “warmongers” are generally labeled such by their detractors. Rarely do we see people thought of as peaceful by the majority.

  • asterix
    Posted at 19:46h, 12 August

    Look at the TTIP agreement and how it will strip all of the European statelets of their remaining powers over their economy. It is often cited as an economic NATO – an organization which has taken over the abilities of most countries to have their own independent foreign policy. TTIP with NATO will become the nucleus of the true King of the North. When it includes Turkey, it will be fulfillment of everything described in Daniel 11.

  • WBPound
    Posted at 23:22h, 12 August

    I do concede the point that there is some scriptural wiggle room in regards to exactly how “peaceful” the AC will be at first. It seems like the scriptures do at least imply that the AC will be thought of by the world as a good guy initially, a man of peace. One would think that the whole “peacemaker” act would be part of his great deception.

    Joel – I realize you aren’t directly claiming that Erdogan is the AC. But you are posting articles that clearly imply it. Why are you so fascinated by him? I assume it’s because he’s Turkish. There are lots of charismatic leaders in this world though.
    If the Psalm 83 and Gog/Magog wars are really one and the same as Armageddon, one would think the AC (whoever he is) is gonna have to step onto the scene here pretty soon to negotiate some sort of lasting peace in the region. The situation all over the middle east is escalating quickly, and if nobody steps in to stop all this war pretty soon, then it’s looking like it could go the distance. And by “going the distance,” I mean that the fighting will continue to escalate, until many nations end up aligning to try and wipe out Israel, which will force God’s hand of protection and destruction. And that sure sounds a lot like Ezekiel 38/39 to me. But who in the world is capable of halting all this fighting before it goes the distance?

  • Joel
    Posted at 23:57h, 12 August

    We yet have sometime before the AC emerges. I believe there will likely be a few more significant regional wars before he emerges. I could be wrong. The AC clearly will come at a time of seeming peace. Daniel 8:25 makes this clear. Dirk disagrees with this notion because he is convinced that Bashar Assad is the AC. Unless he has changed from this view. I think that the AC is yet to emerge onto the scene. He will come as a little horn and then grow large.

    I would think that directly saying that Erdogan is not likely to be the AC is enough to clear the air. I have been fascinated by Erdogan for many years however, recognizing that he is emerging as one of the most significant players/dictators in the region. I expect him to be a huge player for years to come, barring a surprise, which is certainly possible. I expect to be wrong in many cases. But posting an article about idolization of Islamist leaders does not infer that Erdogan is the AC. This is a conclusion that you are jumping to. I’m simply pointing to shadows of thing yet to come.

    Blessings

  • WBPound
    Posted at 02:52h, 13 August

    I guess I just don’t see how these ever-escalating regional wars can continue much longer without the inevitable all-out annihilation attempt occuring. The deep hatred for Israel in that region continues to intensify and is now spreading throughout the world. I also do not foresee how Israel will be able to rebuild their Temple without first crushing their Islamic foes.

    Not to go on too big of a tangent here, but this year and the next are Jewish tetrad years. It’s not a coincidence that war is breaking out on a grand scale this year. When a tetrad falls on Jewish feast days it is undoubtedly a sign of war for Israel. The last 2 times there was a Jewish tetrad, Israel won wars to either reclaim or expand their territory. I believe this pattern has been set by God and will continue this time. I am expecting the situation in the mid-east to escalate until it goes the distance, after which time Israel will emerge triumphant, and will confidently rebuild their Temple. And they won’t need the permission of any Muslims to be able to do it.

  • Þórarinn Örn Egilsson
    Posted at 13:21h, 13 August

    Here is the vidoe of the rally where the woman fainted & touched Edrogan.
    On 47:20 min
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snWNiOLPJzs

  • Dirk
    Posted at 13:42h, 13 August

    “Dirk disagrees with this notion because he is convinced that Bashar Assad is the AC. ”

    No, I still believe Assad is the Antichrist. I would say AN Antichrist, as there are numerous types/shadows of the man of sin, but I believe the time is right.

    As to the issue of Antichrist’s peacefulness, I have long believed that Antichrist is not peaceful and does not have the reputation for being a man of peace for a number of reasons, the first and foremost of which is the description of the war between the king of the South and the King of the North. If the King of the North is the Antichrist, then a reputation for peacefulness should NOT follow the Antichrist in the time prior to the invasion of Israel.

    The second reason which I described above is that the often quoted passage regarding how Antichrist will destroy many through peace is ambiguous and does not require Antichrist to be thought of as peaceful. I believe the passages regarding a false peace are easily reconcilable with the notion of an aggressive (not peaceful) Antichrist.

    The third reason is that the scriptures seem to indicate that the Antichrist will murder his own people: “You will not be given a proper burial, for you have destroyed your nation and slaughtered your people.” – Isaiah 14. I admit the timing of this passage is ambiguous (but the passage regarding destroying through peace is likewise ambiguous).

    The fourth reason is that the forerunners /shadows of the Antichrist (King Saul, Antiochus Epiphanes, Pharaoh, Muhammad, etc.) have rarely been considered men of peace. The primary type of antichrist in scripture, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, was a murderous schemer, dictator, and war lord. I expect the same of antichrist.

    There are other reasons, but I believe those listed above are sufficient.

  • Joel
    Posted at 18:04h, 13 August

    Þórarinn Örn Egilsson

    Thanks for posting that.

  • Dave
    Posted at 18:21h, 13 August

    It’s fascinating wondering what person and circumstances will arise for Israel to enter into this agreement. I would assume the AC will be able to guarantee the conduct of Hezbollah, Hamas, and the Palestinian Authority, as well as that of neighboring countries such as Syria and Iran, for Israel to believe they have secured peace and security.

  • Howard
    Posted at 19:04h, 13 August

    WBPound: “I am expecting the situation in the mid-east to escalate until it goes the distance, after which time Israel will emerge triumphant, and will confidently rebuild their Temple. And they won’t need the permission of any Muslims to be able to do it.”

    I believe you are right that something has to eventually happen that there is reason for Israel and the surrounding nations (at least) to fear YHVH, the God of Israel, even if they are not yet sure who He is. If the building of another Temple is necessary for the Antichrist to defile and abominate, something has to give impetus to this that both Israelis and Gentile nations — including the Arabic Islamic ones — to ALLOW this to happen.

    It is clear now that NO ONE will permit it now, not Israel nor the Gentiles, who are still trampling Jerusalem under foot. It seems that some unexpected and ‘miraculous’ victory by Israel, that surprises everyone, and that puts the fear of Israel’s God in them all, has to occur to let Jewish people seek to appease an angry God, but who is still showing Himself strong on their behalf against their enemies. Then there will be the false calm before the biggest storm in the history of the world, and a great challenge for born-again believers in Yeshua/Jesus not to be deceived, and to be willing to identify with the Lord and to confess His name before men.

    No simple matter, but the glory set before us will become more real.

  • Gluedbarstool
    Posted at 20:31h, 13 August

    Can someone translate what was said in the video? To me it looks nothing like a healing. Just looks lik an elderly woman that he was embracing.

  • Joel
    Posted at 21:11h, 13 August

    It was not a real healing. The point is simply that a woman fainted at his event and instead of bringing her to a medical professional, they took her to him. Who does that?

  • Gluedbarstool
    Posted at 22:04h, 13 August

    I understand.

    Now that Erdogan is elected President, and is hinting around at becoming caliphate, how will this effect Al Baghdadis future role as the caliphate and do you feel one of them will usher in the Mahdi or claim to be so?

    Your teachings fascinate me. I would like to know your stance on the rapture and perhaps some things in the near future that could take place. Thanks

  • WBPound
    Posted at 01:19h, 14 August

    I believe I can speak for Joel and say that he is pre-wrath. Because he did just answer that question for me very recently 🙂

  • Joel
    Posted at 10:55h, 14 August

    I am somewhere in between Pre-Wrath and Post-Trib. I think Pre-Wrath answers questions that classic Post-Trib cannot, but I still have some unresolved questions.

  • Steve
    Posted at 13:03h, 14 August

    Yeah Joel,
    I think this is the nature of prophecy study- we won’t be able to dot every i and cross every t until after the fact. But Pre-Wrath does it mostly for me- after chewing on this for years. 🙂

  • Gluedbarstool
    Posted at 14:02h, 14 August

    I also believe in pretrib rapture. It would be great if you could write an article on the rapture

  • linda keyes
    Posted at 14:58h, 14 August

    Just a quick than you Joel while i am at the computer.

    Been talking about the magog war with some one at church, they are not convinced, so i have printed your perfectly cased notes, very helpful.
    Thanks very much.

  • Luke Montgomery
    Posted at 16:10h, 14 August

    Developments in Turkey are beyond disturbing, but what I am most curious to see is the US response to Erdoğan, and whether or not someone guilty of so many crimes will be invited back to the White House. I think it is pretty clear that Erdoğan has lots his appeal for the West, which is amazing when we remember that Turkey was touted as the model of Islamic democracy during the Bush and early Obama years. Turkey is rising, of that there can be no doubt. Still, there is considerable opposition to Erdoğan, and I fully expect to see the friction manifest itself again as at Gezi, and I expect it to be brutally repressed. I’ve never hoped so fervently that I will be proven wrong…

  • WBPound
    Posted at 17:30h, 14 August

    If there are any unresolved questions folks have about the pre-wrath rapture, that they would feel comfortable asking, I’d be happy to offer my .02. I feel like I have a pretty solid grasp on the issue, and I’m always up for discussing it 🙂

  • good4u
    Posted at 20:43h, 14 August

    Gluedbarstool,

    Instead of asking Joel for a well-trodded eschatological topic that has been around the bend more than you’d care to know, I will kindly refer you to a book that will address your pre-trib interest. Joel has endorsed this book on his blog and I for one have read it as well and can highly recommend it to you. The book is entitled, “The Last Shofar!” by Joseph Lenard and Donald Zoller.

    You can pick it up on Amazon.

    Blessings!

  • AtHisFeet
    Posted at 23:34h, 14 August

    Ya gotta admit, though, the gathering in that video is pretty reminiscent of the Zeppelin Tribune.

  • Joel
    Posted at 23:50h, 14 August

    As well as Alan Kurschner’s books.

  • WBPound
    Posted at 01:43h, 15 August

    I am looking forward to reading The Last Shofar as well. Sounds like a fascinating book. I feel compelled to mention to the folks who are using the terms “pre-trib” and “pre-wrath” interchangeably, that those 2 views are worlds apart and not the same thing. Pre-wrath does not mean pre-trib.

  • Gluedbarstool
    Posted at 01:48h, 15 August

    Good4u, and Joel

    Thanks for the recommendations. I’ll definitely check them out.

    Also, there are unconfirmed reports that Al Baghdadi may be severely injured or possibly dead. If so, could this be an opening for Erdogan to take over?

  • linda keyes
    Posted at 10:28h, 15 August

    Ah WBPound

    If its acceptable i would love to take you up on your offer of questions,
    I know its not life and death, but i was considering the points made on previous posts,out of recpect for others views i would not have asked but for your invitation.(smiley face)

    Daniel 7:25 says : antichist will wear out saints for 3.5 years
    Rev 13:5 : The beast continues 3.5 years
    Rev 12:14 : Women/Israel in wilderness for 3.5 years
    Rev 11:3 : Two witnesses preach for 3.5 years

    Does not the pre wrath make the above verses void, by placing the rapture at least one year earlier than the end of Daniels 70th week? Making the above untrue.

    Remembering that Jesus said he would “shorten those days”.
    Then at least 30yrs Later, he gave John on patmos the 3.5 reign of the beast timeline, wouldn’t it make better sense to understand his shortening of those days to simply mean he would not allow them to continue longer than 3.5yrs ? Else Jesus would simply have told John 2.5yrs.

    The year Day of the Lord could not take place after the 3.5, as Daniel said the Temple would be cleansed after 1290 days(clearly his wrath would be finished by then).

    I have wondered how people see this, and would be grateful for your short response.

    Thanks

  • David
    Posted at 12:04h, 15 August

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiAYjVtoLGQ

    It seems like Fethullah Gulen is a much more likely candidate to take over the reigns in Turkey soon. Only Gulen’s notion of “peaceful” Islam will be able to bring the type of sweeping change across the Muslim world, which will enable the “peace deal” to actually happen.

  • WBPound
    Posted at 03:41h, 16 August

    Linda Keyes – Thank you for posting your question! And a very intelligent question taboot! I wasn’t kidding, I really do love discussing this stuff! Alright, here goes.
    First, we have to look at each of those 4 verses individually, because I believe only 1 of those verses actually applies to the concern you’re raising. It’s the first one, Daniel 7:25. But before we go there lets talk about the other verses. We’ll start with Revelation 11:3 because the 2 witnesses are key to understanding the timing of all this. I believe Revelation to be a mostly chronological book. But there are parenthetical chapters in which time stops, and we get to take a step back to learn about some of the characters & events in greater detail. We know that the 2 witnesses will prophesy for 1,260 days, and that their death/resurrection is at the end of those days. Rev 11:3 is the 1st mention of the 1,260 day time period in the book of Revelation. Then that specific amount of time is mentioned again in chapters 12 & 13. Chapters 10-15 are parenthetical chapters in which the chronological passage of time pauses, so we can take a closer look at what’s going on. Chapters 6-9 were chronological (chapter 7 is a parenthetical pause though), in which we’ve seen the seals being broken, and the Lord being revealed from Heaven when the 6th seal is broken. His wrath then officially begins with the breaking of the 7th seal, which fully opens the scroll and begins the trumpet judgments. In terms of the length of time of the trumpet judgments, the only thing we can say for sure from scripture, is that the trumpet judgements must last at least 5 months (Revelation 9:5). There are no other verses giving us any clues as to the length of time of the trumpet judgments. Then, it is not until after the 6th trumpet has sounded that we take another pause, beginning in chapter 10, in order to take a broader view and get some important clues. It is then that we begin hearing about the 3.5 year time period. The reason the 1,260 days now are mentioned in chapters 11, 12, & 13 is because the closure of those days is precisely aligned with the end of the trumpets and the death/resurrection of the 2 witnesses. The trumpet judgments come to an end at the precise end of the 1,260 days. And the death/resurrection of the 2 witnesses is a part of the 6th trumpet judgment. That event appears to happen after the 6th trumpet has sounded, and immediately prior to the sounding of the 7th. So what I’m saying is, in between the trumpets and bowls, we pause for about 6 chapters to learn about characters, and events, as well as timing. The 1,260 days are mentioned multiple times during these chapters as a clue to show us that it is here that these days have ended. Yet, we know that God’s wrath began at least 5 months prior to the end of the 1,260 days. (I apologize for the long windedness of this explanation but I’m hoping this will all be helpful).
    Revelation 12:14 mentions the 3.5 years again, but only in reference to Israel. God promises to protect Israel (or at least 1/3 of Israel) during this time. I believe this group of people may not be included in the rapture, yet will still be supernaturally protected by God on earth, because they are His covenant people. Also, we know there will be people who survive the 3.5 years because someone’s got to re-populate the earth. There will be survivors from other nations as well.
    Revelation 13:5 simply says that the AC blasphemes God and exercises authority for 42 months. The church isn’t mentioned in this verse, or in Rev 12:14 or Rev 11:3. So even though the Lord will be seen in the sky before the 1,260 days are finished, it appears He does not descend to the Earth at least until after the 1,260 days, and that the earth is still technically the beast’s kingdom during the trumpet judgments.
    Of the verses you mentioned, Daniel 7:25 is the only verse that actually appears to mention the church. Yet, I don’t believe it is referring only to the church. Some translations say “saints” and some say “the holy people.” We know there must be some lucky people who inherit God’s kingdom even though they miss the rapture. A lot of Israelites I’m sure. Might they be included in this verse? Also, when I read this verse carefully in order, it seems that it might just be the “times and the law” that are given into his hand for “a time, times, and half a time.” Obviously we do know the AC will conquer and martyr the saints. But in this verse, the “they” (which are given into his hand) seems more directly to simply be the “times and the law.”
    So to try and sum up. The AC is given authority for 3.5 years. Yet we know that the wrath of God begins at least 5 months prior to the end of those days, and that God’s people are not appointed to wrath. We also have a very clear picture in Revelation chapter 7 of two separate groups of people. The 144,00 witnesses who remain on earth during the trumpet judgments but who are protected from God’s wrath, and the church who is in Heaven, standing before the throne of God. It is no coincidence this picture of the church is given between the 6th & 7th seals. The rapture of the church is part of the 6th seal, which begins the Day of the Lord. This is consistent with what Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31. Jesus said “Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened….etc etc…and He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds.” Notice in Revelation 7:1 that we see four angels “holding back the four winds.” Then suddenly the church is shown in Heaven. Hmmm. Jesus is giving us a clear description of the 6th seal, and He’s saying it happens AFTER the tribulation. Wow. And we know the 6th seal is AT LEAST 5 months prior to the end of the 1,260 days.
    One final thought. Jesus tells us that no one knows the exact day or hour of His coming. The traditional post-trib teaching seems to be inconsistent with this, because it teaches that the rapture happens at the 7th trumpet, which is right at the close of the 1,260 days. We’d be able to count down to the very day if that were the case. But, I believe the Lord has promised to “cut short those days” on an “unknown day and hour,” at least 5 months prior, and hopefully sooner. 🙂
    I’m praying the Lord will bring clarity for you Linda, in regards to all this. Feel free to ask any follow up questions if any part of this doesn’t make sense. It’s not easy to articulate all this, but I’m up for the challenge.

  • good4u
    Posted at 10:37h, 16 August

    WB Pound,

    You are pretty close in your understanding correctly, imo and in terms of warm and hot…you are very, very warm…but there are blanks. The Last Shofar book will help you fill in those blanks, and in the meantime, I suggest you also visit the web site gospelintheendtimes web site. The link is listed on the right of Joel’s blog. I had some very tiny input on that site, but I am not the web site owner. Nelson Waters is the owner and if Joel is just too busy with other projects, Nelson is very capable in helping you. You can take my recommendation at face value. The web site is really a very good teaching tool on the end times for many folks and especially pastors who are starting to see things, but need help eschatologically. You will not be disappointed in this web site. Let me know what you think.

    Blessings!

  • Steve
    Posted at 13:23h, 16 August

    Yeah WB,
    The Last Shofar is pretty good! The 110 days of the flood was something I over looked, and a great section on the Jewish calendar. It does help to “fill in the blanks”, as good4u says. 🙂

  • Steve
    Posted at 13:26h, 16 August

    Opps,
    1 year and 10 days! Ha! 🙂

  • WBPound
    Posted at 15:52h, 16 August

    good4u – Thank you for the recommendation. I will check out that site, and am planning on reading The Last Shofar.

  • linda keyes
    Posted at 19:23h, 16 August

    WBPound

    Sincerely, thank you for the time you have spent in granting me your answer, and thank you for your politeness, it was appreciated, and thank you Joel for allowing me to ask.

    Although i am a novice (and i really am, i had to Google to see what polemic meant!) I do understand the parenthetical aspects of revelations, and realise it is not in chronological order.

    I will grant you that the two witnesses may begin their ministry before the first 1260 days, but most say they start ministering at the second 1260 days,(which would see them preaching during the day of the Lord if the rapture happens a year or even five months before the end of the seventy weeks)

    I just cannot get away from Jesus saying the beast will reign for 3.5yrs,(and he should know) which i think confirms Dan9:24, a full seventy weeks had to expire, to finish transgression, once the heavens are opened the jews will know who Jesus is, and sin no more, this cannot happen on till the end of seventy weeks.

    Dan 7:25 whether times or laws are given into ac’s hands, he is still ruling, and i do not believe he will be ruling once the day of the Lord
    starts, i dont believe he will have a kingdom 1 year after the day of the lord Begins(Rev16:10). Jesus said “first you bind the strong man, then ruin his house”. I believe ac will be taken out first, by the brightness of Jesus coming.

    I see in Rev9:21 the trumpets seem to involve room for repentance, not all the attacked even die, however at the day of the Lord, Gods enemies will not be granted this option and will surely die an instant death Zech14:12

    The women/Israel flee to the hills i think, when they see the abomination that makes desolate, Half way into the last week, then she is kept for the last half. If they are Gods people, then they would not miss the rapture, they would be looking for that blessed hope, and it would not fail them.

    Though the word church may not appear, i think that ‘saints can imply all of Gods people, just as Steven called the old testament saints the church acts 7:38

    I believe there is only one gathering. Heb11:40 says the old testament saints wont be perfected without us, and Paul said those alive when he comes will not prevent those that sleep.so i think we all meet the Lord together. (though im not sure about the two witnesses)

    For me, i believe the day of the Lord begins at the end of the second 1260 days, and somehow fits into daniels extra 30 plus 45 days.

    I am trying, and i have not just quoted some one else, although i am great full for others, I like to understand for myself.
    I am open for God to open my eyes ,as im sure we all are, but for now this is how i see it. I wont ask again, thank you for your time once more, and may God bless and use you in His service.

  • Christine
    Posted at 19:56h, 16 August
  • WBPound
    Posted at 23:03h, 16 August

    Hi Linda – I do just want to clarify that I am saying the 2 witnesses preach during the 2nd 1,260 days (the 2nd 3.5 years), and that does include a portion of the Day of the Lord. I do believe their preaching will overlap with the Day of the Lord for at least 5 months. We can agree to disagree on some of the other minor details. But I just wanted to clarify that one point, in case I was being misunderstood about when the 2 witnesses preach.

  • linda keyes
    Posted at 12:09h, 17 August

    Thank you for clarifying that WBPound, it did help me better see your position, i appreciate graceful response in differences on minor issues.
    The Lord grant yourself and all, a new awareness of His presence in these
    last days.

  • Dirk
    Posted at 13:16h, 17 August

    “The traditional post-trib teaching seems to be inconsistent with this, because it teaches that the rapture happens at the 7th trumpet, which is right at the close of the 1,260 days. We’d be able to count down to the very day if that were the case.”

    There’s no scriptural requirement that the Coming of the Lord must occur on day 1260 or the day after, etc. The requirement is that “no man knows the day or the hour”

    Another important consideration: If the Lord returns on a feast day that is determined by witnesses, then there is no way of knowing when those witnesses will report within a several-day period.

  • Kaye
    Posted at 02:22h, 25 August

    Have you found any connection at all between this false “messiah” and the tribe of Dan? I have heard it bantered around that the false messiah will come from the tribe of Dan, which as I understand it, were sailors who roamed or sailed all the way to the British Isles and left the name “dan”– (something) everywhere they went.

  • LeAnna
    Posted at 02:44h, 17 May

    Thank you for sharing this article. It feels like Erdogan could play a major role in these current end times. It is no coincidense at all that he is being seen a healer, Christ like character to the Islamic community. My prayers are with your ministry.

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