Alan Kurschner’s new book released

I know many here have been blessed by Alan Kurschner of Eschatos ministries book Antichrist: Before the Day of the Lord. The challenge in writing any book, as I well know, is determining where in the spectrum of scholarly to popular one should write. On one hand, if it is not detailed and scholarly enough, critics will capitalize on what is lacking. On the other hand, if it is too detailed, many simply will not take the time to read it, and the message will be lost. While I think that Alan’s previous book Antichrist, struck a good balance within that spectrum, for many, a simplified version will be tremendously helpful. As such Alan has just released Prewrath: A Very Short Introduction to the Great Tribulation, Rapture, and Day of the Lord. I know that many of my readers will be happy to know that he has made this available at a great discount of only $5 if you buy bulk of 10 or more, making it the perfect book to buy several of and to give away to others.

  • Nelson
    Posted at 21:45h, 23 July

    I have read and highly recommend Alan’s first book. If this new book is a condensation of the earlier work it will also be excellent. At $5 each, Alan is obviously not making a profit, but rather approaching this book as a ministry to get the word out. Let us support him with prayer and a few shekels to buy some books and distribute them!!

    This is a most important ministry. The majority of the church seems oblivious to the fact we will face the Apostasy and the Antichrist (2 Thes. 2:1-3). For them to do so without spiritual and physical preparation is dangerous. The church is at high risk. Let us all assist Alan in his ministry and get the word out.

    Bravo Alan for being faithful to your calling.

  • Joel
    Posted at 00:46h, 24 July

    For clarity, they are $11.95 each but $5 for ten or more.

  • Troy
    Posted at 22:47h, 24 July

    Hello Joel,
    Thanks for plugging Alan’s book. It is very timely and desperately needed. The cost is well worth it no matter what it is. I am glad he discounted it though. I switched from the Pre-trib position back in 1994 to the Pre-wrath position. After studying Pre-trib for several years it only took a few hours of reading Marvin Rosanthol’s book to convince me something was terribly wrong with the any moment teaching. Anyway, I have always wondered “how” I benefited from this.. other than being a more accurate Bible teacher. It really was not until I stumbled onto your ministry that my question was answered. Most Pre trib people simply will not bend but some will and they will be blessed. Most fall back on the hundreds of teachers they have heard and didn’t check them selves to see if what they were hearing was true. They were not noble. They simply can not imagine being wrong because their teachers are so smart. They have many Dr.s that agree with each other also making sure this position is well defended by quoting each others books! This same group says that looking to the middle east for the Anti Christ is crazy because Islam will be “wiped” out before the tribulation and then the Anti Christ will come from Europe! (the Devil’s red herring)

    I also think your position helped me see why Calvinism is for the most part leads people away from a love of prophecy. They are looking backward to what God did before the foundation of the world concentration on individual election when in reality we all should be “looking forward” to what the prophets spoke about and talking about Israel’s national election. So what i am trying to say is the Pre Wrath position coupled with the Islamic Antichrist is a very powerful combination. One absolutely compliments the other. I think that the Pre wrath position helps people lean more into a “progressive” or “overlapping” view of the church and Israel (no gap) which is far more Biblical. When one see’s this… a person is much more likely to realize the difference between the wrath of God (Day of the Lord’s Wrath) and the wrath of Satan (the great tribulation.)

    My strategy has always been to get people into their Bible, hold their nose to the Words and then overwhelm them with the prophets teaching on the Day of the Lord and moving them to Revelation six. When they have a Biblical conviction about being here during the tribulation then and only then are they apt to get the real seriousness of what you are teaching. (For the obvious reason they too will be here to see it). As a brother who has been preaching the Pre Wrath position for a LONG time… (Marvin Rosanthal said I had the first daily radio program in the U.S. teaching on this position back in 1997-98) I am still convinced that IT should lead a person very quickly to the Mid East Beast..and the position should lead very naturally to the Islamic Antichrist position. I am so glad that you and Alan are doing conferences together. It is a match made in heaven!

    Well, like I said.. buy Alan’s book It is the left jab… your stuff is the right hook! I pray for Israel every day.. they are really in for it until God turns them back to Himself…I wish when some Calvinists read Romans 8-11 they would come up with the right answer.. Israel is God’s nation.. He elected them and collectively they will be delivered by their Messiah, our Savior is their King.

    God bless you.. thanks for mentioning Alan’s book on your blog…. I pray millions of copies will be sold and read I also pray those who buy His book will do themselves a favor and buy everything you have produced because the greater issue facing us is the ignorance of the Middle East by those lay man in our churches who hold to the “any moment” position. They DO NOT have a Biblical conviction but more in a “traditional” or “Orthodox” way they blindly follow their leaders.

  • Doug Hanley
    Posted at 03:08h, 25 July

    Remember you can see Joel, Alan Kurschner, Mark Davidson, Nelson Walters, Usama Dakdok, and other at End Times Refocused: Bible Prophecy Conference – Las Vegas 2014

    DISCOUNT Code 25% off fbetr

  • Paul
    Posted at 08:48h, 25 July

    Alan has just released Prewrath: A Very Short Introduction to the Great Tribulation, Rapture, and Day of the Lord.

    Although I don’t hold too dogmatically to any position on the timing of The Rapture, the pre-wrath position is the one I find most convincing. Chris White lays out the pre-wrath interpretation very clearly in one of his videos (and often cites Alan Kurschner’s work).

    Speaking of Chris, I’ve been listening to the podcasts of his book about the Antichrist, which appear to have been intended to be broadcast prior to publication for people to criticise, in order that potential flaws in the book could be addressed before it goes to press. An interesting idea. He also seems to have been thinking along very similar lines to me: I’ve been growing more convinced that the Antichrist will be a Jewish hero and probably not someone claiming to be Jesus or an Islamic leader.

    I notice that Chris White also subscribes to the same minority view that I do concerning the Gog-Magog war — namely that Ezekiel 38-39 is merely a more detailed account of the brief passage in Revelation 20, i.e. that this war won’t take place until the end of the Millennium. His study can be seen here.

    I’d be interested to hear what you make of his work. …Maybe you two could get together some day for a discussion, if your respective schedules permit. It’d be a good “iron sharpening iron” exercise, as you both know the Scriptures and speak well.

    Best wishes and blessings,


  • Nelson
    Posted at 17:16h, 25 July

    “When they have a Biblical conviction about being here during the tribulation then and only then are they apt to get the real seriousness of what you are teaching. (For the obvious reason they too will be here to see it).” Troy

    You are very astute Troy, and so correct. It seems you have a heart to lead brothers and sisters to the truth of rapture timing so they might prepare for the time of trial coming upon the whole earth. Me too!

    God called us (The Gospel in the End Times Ministries) to a ministry of awakening the church to understand and prepare for the end times. We do it by trying to reach pastors one-on-one and city-by-city. Pastors can be a tough group. For you and others out there who might feel such a call, here are a couple things we’ve learned talking to pastors about this:

    1. Rapture timing theories can definitely be a “stronghold” and a “high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God.” (2 Cor. 10) We need to approach it as such. Prayer and fasting; take every thought captive.
    2. For this reason, we never go directly to rapture timing. We constructed to bring those who think end times are irrelevant to the truth slowly but methodically. Feel free to refer your friends if you think it might help.
    3. I’ve found discussing 2 Thes. 2:1-3 is easier than discussing rapture timing. Getting a person to see that the church will face the Great Apostasy and the Antichrist is usually enough to get their interest without a head on attack on the “stronghold.”
    4. When a Christian first realizes he/she or his church/family might face the end times, fear is the first emotion they feel. We attempt to take an Isaiah 40 approach to “preparing the way of the Lord.” “Comfort, yes, comfort my people.” (Isa. 40:1) This whole chapter of Isaiah is on how to do it.
    5. I am prayerful Alan’s new book is helpful. One of the big obstacles we run into is pastors being too busy for end times. A short book is a lot less intimidating!

    Hopefully some of that was helpful or useful.

  • Steve
    Posted at 22:57h, 25 July

    I believe Calvin was right on probably the majority of his teachings about election for the individual-I believe grace can be resisted though. I also see Israel as a nation as being saved-just like Romans and Zech says. I don not believe in the so called “free will”, of an individual. I believe we have a “limited”, free will in the plan of God- after all if we had an unlimited free will we would be God. Free will is a person being the captian of their own ship-which is what humanism teaches. If we are all sinners by nature,born into sin, and will not choose God- as Paul says in Romans 3, no one would ever coose God out of their own so called free will. We were all children of darkness before we were saved and God turned the light bulb on, and we saw how dead and dark we really are-Eph 2, Col 1-3. So it all goes back to God choosing some, and not choosing others. God has done this because He is God, and He does not need us humans (the creation) telling Him what to do, or acting like we are more just, righteous, and compassionate than Him. The key thing is this- we do not know who God has chosen, so we got to preach, or help those who do preach and teach the gospel, as much as we felt led by the Holy Spirit to-we got to labor with God how we can. This way those chosen will hear the call and start the chain of conversion intended by God. Hyper-Calvinism is the tool of the devil for sure! So, there are people who are considered Calvinists in least some of their thinking, who love Israel and see the truth that God is not done with Her yet! Peace to you brother. 🙂

  • linda keyes
    Posted at 12:21h, 26 July

    I have to believe that salvation is for the who so ever, to say as does calvin, that God wills for some not be saved, I believe is foreign to Gods word and character, and makes him no better than allah.

    I believe that we are the ones who actually choose to be chosen, by responding to his call, of course he knew from the beginning who would respond, and only in this sense are we the chosen. I think that calvin grants the believer a sense of elitism. 2Peter3:9 clearly says he desires none to perish.

    I cannot believe he would purposely not choose the unsaved I know, it is they who choose not to partake. may our prayers for them prevail.

  • Robert Young
    Posted at 13:44h, 26 July

    I read Alan’s previous book as well but I do disagree with at least one of his conclusions. There are sections of Revelation that like Israel in Egypt, those who did not have the Mark were shielded by the plagues. Also towards the end of Matthew 24 we are told that immediately after the tribulation the DOL occurs. This has been the view of the early Church, a post-tribulation Rapture. Although the pre-wrath view does get us out of the idea we are going to fly to heaven before all h.ll breaks loose it is technically wrong in assuming the Rapture does not occur until after the tribulation. Help me if I am wrong.

  • Troy
    Posted at 15:17h, 26 July

    @Steve. I spent five hours this morning, just writing about how reading the Mid East Beast has changed the way I see the Gospel and the election of Israel. When I went to post it the Spam filter got me.. I lost it. It was very good and very detailed.. but I don’t have the time to re-write it. .. oh well.. maybe it was not to be… God bless you.

  • Jeanne
    Posted at 19:22h, 26 July


    I don’t mean to get off track here, but when will your Revolution Film on Iran be out and available for purchase?

  • Joel
    Posted at 22:58h, 26 July


    So the film is now broken up into two films. The first one is called “End Time Eyewitness” and will be out in September. The sec on film will be called The Global Jesus Revolution and will be out next year. The first film doesn’t really deal much with Iran at all.

  • Joel
    Posted at 22:59h, 26 July


    Sorry. I appreciate the effort. I have had that happen several times myself. Very frustrating.


  • Steve
    Posted at 00:48h, 27 July

    I think it is something with the i’s and l’s-they both look the same but it could be a big I and little l. 🙂 Troy, love you and Linda in the Lord! We all got different viewpoints. 🙂

  • Doug Hanley
    Posted at 04:00h, 27 July

    Jan markel posted an link concerning the Gog Magog war of Eze 38.
    Saying the author of the article believes that war takes place before the Tribulation.
    Its seems this is a leading Pre-Trib view. Againg going against the plain reading of the passage and what follows.

  • Jeanne
    Posted at 13:48h, 27 July

    Robert Young,

    In Mark 13:19-20, we read:

    “19 “For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will. 20 “Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.”

    Note verse 21: “He shortened the days” “for the sake of the elect.” To me, this implies that we will go through at least part of the tribulation. Some have said 2 1/2 years, and then the rapture. I don’t know how long, but it is clear to me that God removes “the elect” before the full 3 1/2 years is complete.

    Joel, what is your take on this?

  • linda keyes
    Posted at 13:57h, 27 July

    Absolutley Steve, your sentiment is completely mutual. In agreement or not we are one in Him. Although i feel strongly about calvanism, i was not being persnal towards you, just exressing my view. Maybe it was untimely, i fully know your heart is after Gods heart. The Lord bless you and yours as you seek him, look forward to meeting you in the kingdom.

  • Debbie
    Posted at 15:04h, 27 July

    I have order the 10 books and plan to give them out….

  • Troy
    Posted at 17:26h, 27 July

    @ Steve,

    Do me a favor…if you have time…look at this…with concentrated effort on the contrast between “individual” and “national” election.

    Most people do not know that almost 4 out of 10 of Paul’s NT quotations come from the following passages. (Is 42-53) According to Brock.

    Can you read them and see where “individual” election is referring ONLY to Jacob and only to Esau. I read them as Paul referring to the “national” election of Israel. One of the big discoveries is a person does not HAVE to connect election with salvation as if they are synonyms.

    Also concerning the subject of Joel’s post- I now believe that the Pre Wrath position may have to reconsider the elect mentioned in Matthew 24. I am well aware of the Pre-Trib position that says Matthew 24 is only for Israel.. I don’t agree with them on that point. I now see Paul’s mind being dominated by his understanding of Isaiah chapters 42-53. I can not see individual election here in anyway shape or form. When Paul studied for 20 years after his conversion, he was studying the OT (Hebrew Bible). There is a very good possibility and in all likeliness, Paul held the meaning of Isaiah for what it says directly to Israel, excluding the Gentiles in election. So read these passages if you have time.. before responding.

    My question is WHICH verse below is specifically pointing to INDIVIDUAL election? Answer not as a “calvinist” but as Paul would have understood and taught. Thanks… love you in the Lord also.. (this is not what I wrote yesterday but serves the same purpose…)

    “OT Quotations”
    Is Israel is the victim of Identity theft..?

    (Is. 42:1 -Is. 53:1)
    38 per cent of all Paul’s OT Citations (31 of 80 est.) can be found in Romans 8-11. There are at least 22 of these coming from the book of Isaiah. It appears Is. 53:1 and Romans 10:16 are the breaking point in Paul’s arguments. The death of Jesus on the Cross. The substitutionary death.

    The same applies here in 2 Cor. 6. Where Paul is quoting once again from Is. 43, 49 and 52.

    Running between the OT quotes (Is 43:6; 49:8; and Is. 52:11) used in 2 Cor. 6:1-17.

    2 Cor 6:1-2 cited from Is. 49:8
    “In a favorable time I listened to you, and in a day of salvation I have helped you.”

    2 Cor. 6:17 cited from Is. 52:11
    “Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you”

    2 Cor. 6:18 cited from Is. 43:6
    “Entire chapter about Israel’s Messiah. He who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel. You are precious in my eyes and honored , and I love you. Fear not, for I am with you; I will bring your offspring from the east, and from the west I will gather you. I will say to the north, Give up, and to the south, Do not withhold bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the end of the earth, everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.”

    (see Zech 6:1-8 four chariots, horses and winds, Dan. 7:1 four winds Rev. 7:1 four corners and four winds and Is. 11:12 four corners (remnant) and Matthew 24:31 gather his elect from the four winds)

    Is 43:20-23 To give drink to my chosen people, the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise. Yet you did not call upon me, O Jacob; but you have been weary of me, O Israel!

    Is. 44:1 But now hear, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen!

    Is. 44:21 Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me. I have blotted out your transgressions like a cloud and your sins like mist; For the Lord has redeemed Jacob and will be glorified in Israel.

    Is. 45:4 For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I call you by your name,

    Is. 45:25 In the Lord all the offspring of Israel shall be justified and shall glory..”

    Is. 46:3-4-8 Listen to me, O house of Jacob, all the remnant of the house of Israel.

    Is. 46:12-13 Listen to me, you stubborn of heart, you who are far from righteousness: I bring near my righteousness: I bring near by righteousness: it is not far off, and my salvation will not delay; I will put salvation in Zion, for Israel my glory.

    Is 47:4 our redeemer the Holy of Israel

    Is 48:1 Oh house of Jacob who are called by the name of Israel

    Is 48:12 Listen to me Oh Jacob and Israel whom I called

    Is. 49: 5-6 And now the Lord says, he who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him; and that Israel might be gathered to him-

    It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the preserved of Israel: Thus says the Lord, The Redeemer of Israel and his Holy One, to one deeply despised, abhorred by the nation, Kings shall see and arise; princes, and they shall prostrate themselves; because of the Lord, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you.”

    See Acts 26:6-8 And now I stand here on trial because of my hope in the promise made by God to our fathers, to which our twelve tribes hope to attain, as they earnestly worship night and day. And for this hope I am accused by the Jews, O king! Why is it thought incredible by any of you that God raises from the dead?

    Rev. 7:1-8 12000 from Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, Benjamin were sealed. (vs. 3 Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”)

    Is 49:14-16 I will not forget you are carved on the palms of my hands

    Is 49:22 back where we started: And they shall bring your sons in their bosom, and your daughters shall be carried on their shoulders

    Is.49:23b Kings shall be your foster fathers, and their queens your nursing mothers. With their faces on the ground they shall bow down to you, and lick the dust of your feet. And you will know that I am the Lord; those who wait for me shall not be put to shame.” (See Romans 9:33 citation from here)

    Is 49:25-26 I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh, and they shall be drunk with their own blood as with wine. Then all flesh shall know that I am the Lord your Saviour, and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.”

    Is 50:7-11 But the Lord God helps me; therefore I have set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be put to shame. (see Ro. 9:33) He who vindicates me is near. Who will contend with me? Let us stand up together. Who is my adversary? (see Ro. 8:33) Let him come near to me. Behold the Lord God helps me; who will declare me guilty? Behold, all of them will wear out like a garment; Behold, all you who kindle a fire, who equip yourselves with burning torches! Walk by the light of your fire, and by the torches that you have kindled! This you have from my hand: you shall lie down in torment.

    Is 51:2-4 Look to Abraham your father and to Sarah who bore you: for he was but one when I called him, that I might bless him and multiply him. For the Lord comforts Zion: he comforts all her waste places and makes her wilderness like Eden, her desert like the garden of the Lord; joy and gladness will be found in her; give attention to me, MY PEOPLE, and give ear to me, my nation; (See Romans 11:1-5; 25-27)

    Is 51:16 and saying to Zion you are my people

    Is 51:22-23 Thus says your Lord, the Lord, your God who pleads the cause of his people: Behold, I have taken from your hand the cup of staggering; the bowl of my wrath you shall drink no more; and I will put it into the hand of your tormentors, who have said to you, Bow down, that we may pass over; and you have made your way back like the ground and like the street for them to pass over.

    Is. 52:1-2 Awake, Awake, put on your strength, O Zion; put on your beautiful garments, O Jerusalem; loose the bonds from your neck, O captive of Zion.

    3-6 (portion of Scripture that speaks of the Anti Christ)

    Is. 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him who brings good news, who publishes peace, who brings good news of happiness, who publishes salvation, who says to Zion, “Your God reigns”
    (cited in Romans 10:15)

    It is best to read Romans 8 through 11 AFTER studying these passages in great detail. Know Isaiah 42-53 extremely well before reading chapter 9 of Romans. You will come to one conclusion.. Paul was referring to “national” election. This is what changed me from being a four point calvinist. Also, Read Genesis 33 and 25. When reading Genesis 33 picture Calvinism teaching Esau is a reprobate condemned to Hell before he ever took a breath, before time and read Genesis 25 and tell me this is referring NOT to nations but Individuals. This would be extremely difficult to conclude reading the exact words of God!

    Well, take care.. Thanks Joel for letting us have this very important discussion on your blog! I am working extremely hard on a project I would love for you to see someday. I think you will really like it.. and may find useful. God bless you my brother.. you encourage me greatly. May the God of peace watch over your soul and your family.

    In Christ, Troy

  • Robert Young
    Posted at 04:00h, 28 July


    I know Joel would have some great ideas on your comment. I would recommend reading “The Church in the Tribulation” buy Dr. Robert Gundry. It is a great scholarly book from a post-trib view. In that book he states that the days are cut short, which goes against the idea of knowing the day or hour. One of the pre-trib arguments is that we would know the exact day of the rapture once the tribulation began, because it would be seven years after that. Shortening of the tribulation does not mean that the elect will be raptured sometime before the tribulation ends, they will be raptured at the end of that shortened period. Again, according to Mt 24 the DOL occurs immediately after the tribulation. This is clear and direct scripture. The elect is raptured prior to God’s final wrath at Armageddon and are shielded during the tribulation. There is a pre-wrath rapture…but it is the final wrath, it is not within the tribulation but after. I would really love to here from the “pre-wrath” people where I am wrong because I am always open to change, but to me it is quite clear.

    Blessings, Robert

  • Steve
    Posted at 06:31h, 28 July

    I believe you are missing the point: Individual election or national makes no difference. The Bible teaches us consistantly God is the one doing the choosing, not man, or the creation. The elect are the chosen ones, predestination means to choose beforehand. Everyone who is the elect are chosen by God, in the OT and New. An example is when we go to vote, we chose the canidate of our choice. The canidate does not choose us, this makes no sense!
    Paul teaches in Rom 9:11-16, God does the choosing, “so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls.” And further on we read, “so then it does not depend on on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.”
    That salvation and election go hand and hand, is found in Eph 1:4-14. Notice: “Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world…He predestinated us…according to the kind intention of His will…according to the riches of His grace…He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention…having been predestinated according to His purpose who works all things after the councel of His will…” Where is man in this chain? He only has to listen to the message of truth, the gospel of our salvation, and believe it (trust in it). God starts it and finishes it, with the seal of the Holy Spirit, the “stamp” of God living within us until we are finally redeemed- which is talking about the resurrection in Luke 21:25-28.
    Jesus taught the same thing in Jhn 15:16,”You did not choose Me, but I chose you…” And we know He was not just talking about the disciples, because he teaches us twice in Jhn 6:41-71,”No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him…For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been geranted him from the Father.” Notice the false disciples left after hearing this.
    So going back to Rom 3, Paul teaches us, “There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who SEEKS FOR GOD…”. And our condition before we were saved:Eph 2 “And you were DEAD in your trespasses and sins…Among them we too ALL formerly lived…and were BY NATURE children of wrath,even as the rest…” See also, Col 2-3.
    A dead man or woman cannot choose God, this is impossible according to the Scriptures! And as you can see this is not a fringe teaching.
    So, in closing, the point I was trying to make following this logic of the Scriptures is this: God could not have looked down the long corridor of time and “know” who would “choose” Him. He simply “knows” His subjects in a personal way. Rom 8:28-30 This is because no one would choose Him because we are all dead in sin, walking in darkness, and our Father is the devil,just as the Pharisees- this is the very nature of an unsaved person. And was our nature before God chose us, drew us in, regenerated us and renewed us, the light bulb came on and God gave us the faith to start believing, (this FREE gift we could not work up within ourselves)we then believed(trusted) and we were born again into the kingdom of God, and we are now sealed by God Himself, who lives in us, to the praise of His glory! Amen! This is what I believe the Bible teaches, and is mostly what Calvin did teach, along with Wayne Grudem. It is all a work of God! I have thought about this since I was saved over 25 years, and I could not see it as truth until probably 10 or so years ago. If you all do not see it, this is fine!Does it answer all our questions? No, forsure! But I do not belive I am teaching anything too off the wall IMO. We get so hung up on on our “choice”, most likely because we live in a country where we do all the choosing. If we lived in the old days under a King, I think we would understand the King makes the choice-not the subject. We just have to agree (believe/trust) Peace and blessings in the Lord! 🙂 P.S. Esau was most likely an unbeliever, according to Heb 12:14-17. Notice: He found no place for repentance, so he was not chosen as an individual, as Rom 9 teaches.

  • linda keyes
    Posted at 12:43h, 28 July

    I always wondered why Esau could not find repentance, the kjv says:

    ‘ For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.’ Heb 12v17 (marginal ref says: way to change his mind).

    It was pointed out to me that Esau was actually seeking repentance from Isaac, he wanted him to still grant him the blessing of the birthright,
    even after he sold it for nought, but it was a no go. Esau didnt go to God with tears he went to Isaac. That makes good sense to me.

    My main problem with Calvinism, is that it means that some people are born into the world totally without hope. 1Samuel 6:6 the writer says that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, so when we read in Exodus that God hardened his heart, i believe with those who say that God simply strengthened Pharaohs resolve, foreknowing he would never come to him, he raised him up to show forth his power.

    I just cant believe the Father would say to anyone, ‘i dont want you, you can go to hell’. To me that’s just unthinkable.

    I wont comment on this again Joel (promise). Sincere blessings to all.

  • Jeanne
    Posted at 13:05h, 28 July


    In fact, I am reading Gundry’s book (it’s not a fast read!).

    “One of the pre-trib arguments is that we would know the exact day of the rapture once the tribulation began, because it would be seven years after that. Shortening of the tribulation does not mean that the elect will be raptured sometime before the tribulation ends, they will be raptured at the end of that shortened period.”

    I’m not sure I’m following that….did you mean to say “one of the post-trib arguments”? I agree that we cannot know the “day” or the “hour”. I hope that was not what came through in my comments. “The Last Shofar” puts the timing of the rapture at around the 2 1/2 years point of the second half of the 70th week, i.e., the cutting short for the sake of the elect. At least that’s how I interpret the authors’ view.

    ‘Again, according to Mt 24 the DOL occurs immediately after the tribulation. This is clear and direct scripture. The elect is raptured prior to God’s final wrath at Armageddon and are shielded during the tribulation. There is a pre-wrath rapture…but it is the final wrath, it is not within the tribulation but after.’

    That is my understanding and view as well. I hope my comments did not lead you to think otherwise.

  • Dirk
    Posted at 14:47h, 28 July

    “In that book he states that the days are cut short, which goes against the idea of knowing the day or hour.”

    I would suggest that the day or hour is unknown because the Creator’s calendar has been lost to us. Those who say they would know the day or hour based on a 7 year period would be forced into choosing a Calendar model:

    1. A 365.24… calendar year.
    2. A 354/356 lunar calendar year.
    3. A 360 day calendar year
    4. A 364 Enoch style calendar
    5. A Rabbinical calendar year whose number of days fluctuates per year.

    The list goes on, and there’s no clear indication of how to truly keep the Creator’s calendar. Those who were charged with keeping god’s calendar have been largely scattered and have had to deal with Assyro-Babylonian, Gregorian, and other calendars who have influenced the timekeeping method. If the calendar year we employ is off by one single day, then we would not know the day or the hour but would simply have an idea as to the season.

  • Steve
    Posted at 17:42h, 28 July

    Gundry’s book is pretty good, I too read it many years ago! The Pre-Wrath is just a refinement on Post. There is a pretty good exchange over in the comments section of “The Last Shofar”. I do not see Matt 24 as describing Rev 19-20, I believe it is describing events of the seal period. The trumpets and bowls not being included- but only taught in Rev-which is the DOL. I see Matt 25, where it talks about Jesus coming back and taking possession of the kingdom, then the sheep and goats judgment,as picking up and giving us more detail on what is known as Armageddon-or Rev 19-20. So Jesus just skips over the DOL, and more detail is given in Rev, after He was glorified. The signs in the sun, moon, and stars, at the sixth seal shows us that this is the coming or “parousia”(advent/arrival/presence) the Lord taught us about in Matt 24. I don’t know if most Pre-wrath people hold to this as I do? So Post-Trib see Matt 24 as describing Rev 19-20 also, just as Pre-Trib does. I too wish Joel would give us a short list of the merits and problems of Post Trib, compared to the merits and problems of Pre-Wrath-Just what he is thinking, if he has time. Heck Joel, we know and understand you are a busy man, and things get redundant. I guess we are like the children of Israel in the OT, and you are Moses-just don’t hit us with that staff of your’s! 🙂

  • Robert Young
    Posted at 21:40h, 28 July


    What I meant to say is that since we don’t know the day or hour one could think that since we “know” that the tribulation will be 7 years, then we would know the exact day the rapture would occur, if it happens at the end of the tribulation. This is the argument pre-trib people make. In a pre-trib scenario you certainly would not know the day or hour, but since the tribulation is shortened you do not know as well with post-trib. I hope this makes sense

    I am glad you are reading Gundry. It is by far the best book I have read on the Rapture, although it is somewhat difficult to go through.

    Another few reasons why I see difficulties with the pre-wrath view is that we are raised at the last trump 1Cor 15:50-54 which is the 7th trumpet in Revelation 10:7. These speak of the mystery being fulfilled which is the Rapture and Resurrection at the end of the tribulation. Also the first resurrection is found in Rev 20: 4-6 which occurs after the tribulation. Jesus also said we would be raised at the last day, Jn 6:40.

    Blessings, Brad

  • Robert Young
    Posted at 21:45h, 28 July


    You make a very good point on the calendar issue.


  • Robert Young
    Posted at 22:32h, 28 July


    You have some very thought provoking comments. I think it is a question to know if the seals, trumpets, and bowls are consecutive of overlapping. I still feel that Mt 24 is “immediately” after the tribulation. I don’t know how you get around that?

    Jesus makes it quite clear that we are raised on the last day

    “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
    John 6:40

    I think it is important to base our theology on clear direct scripture and then look at other’s that are more difficult to decipher in lieu of what is clear.

    Also, I think we need to be very careful in establishing new doctrine that was not a part of the early church who were directly taught by the apostles. They were post trib.

    I love this dialogue because we are told to reason together. No one has all the answers and we should not boast if we get a piece of the puzzle from the Lord.

    Blessings, Robert

  • Robert Young
    Posted at 22:39h, 28 July

    Another verse that plainly teaches that Jesus will stay in heaven until the Millinnium is Acts 3:21. This is clearly after the tribulation.

    For He must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets.
    Acts 3:21 NLT

  • Doug
    Posted at 22:59h, 28 July

    Hi Joel,

    This may be a bit off topic but it seems relevant to an earlier post you made. It had to do with someone who defended Israel.

    I picked this up off (conservative links)

    Among other things the poll said about Americans under 30, 29% thought Israel was more to blame (vs 21% who thought Hamas was more to blame) in the current conflict.

    I had to wince when I read it. I pray that as they grow older, those numbers reverse.

    As always, great articles! God bless!

  • Greg Maxwell
    Posted at 23:48h, 28 July

    I believe that its clear from a detailed study of Daniel’s 70 weeks that God intends for us to use a calendar of 12 30-day months to make a year of 360 days. This is verified by the book of Revelation.

  • Troy
    Posted at 00:28h, 29 July

    @ Steve;

    It does matter whether or not the Bible talks about individual election. The first reason is every Calvinist I have debated will not read Romans 9 with this view… they can only see the individual election of Jacob and the reprobation of Esau. (It is ironic that the Calvinist theologians chose this word “reprobate” as it directly contradictory to their understanding of God’s decree!)

    I will explain why it is important to distinguish between individual and national election…. first of all most people who have embraced Calvinism find it very easy to erase Israel, not all..

    Please pay close attention as I show you the difference. I am only arguing against the five point position.. although I do not believe in any of the five points as taught by Calvinists.

    I believe the adjectives are the problem.

    1)I see depravity, not ABSOLUTE depravity where a man can not even respond to God. He is dead according to Calvinists. So the way they define Total Depravity is not Total Depravity at all. It is Absolute Depravity or in other words: Total Inability.

    2) I see election but not unconditional election. I see that Israel was unconditionally elected as a nation.(God’s first born). all individuals must have the faith of Abraham to be declared righteous.. Justification is conditional. Romans 4

    3) I see atonement.(2 Cor 5:14-15) not LIMITED atonement. This could never have even been discussed with out great speculation and philosophy. This has arrived on the guessing by experts on just how God chose some and not others and WHEN HE chose them even more important to Calvinists. Study the Lapsarian systems if you want to really get into this one! This is where you will find some WILD arguments between five point and four pointers. (You would be stunned by some of these actual point counter point debates).

    4.) I believe in Grace not irresistible grace. It is not moving it is resting on the Promise (Romans 4:16) which is an anchor. (Hebrews 6:13-20).

    5.) I do not believe a person can lose their salvation.. but this has more to do with my understanding of the substitutionary death of Christ. (Which is an extremely solid teaching in five point circles) If we were saved as enemies by His death then how can we not be saved as children by His life. Romans 5:6-11

    Ok… so here goes. If you believe in Individual Election this is exactly what you believe (as a five pointer.. that is).

    Jacob was chosen, Esau was declared a reprobate. “before time.” All from Romans 9:13

    SO…. It would be impossible for Esau to believe or repent. He just can’t he is dead. He is a reprobate. He can not respond to the Gospel. He can not believe until he is born again. He can not be born again if he has not been chosen.

    Even if he is the “object” of election he still “can’t repent or put his faith in Christ”. He must wait until God changes his heart by irresistible grace. Now if you are Esau this won’t be offered to you even though you will get the general Gospel call that you can hear but not do anything with. Because Jesus didn’t die for you….!!!!

    So this is the Gospel that we have for non believers? (INDIVIDUAL ELECTION)

    God by a sovereign, eternal decree of UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION has consigned billions upon billions to hell before their birth, and to make it certain, He has rendered them with TOTAL DEPRAVITY So they will be unable to receive the IRRESISTIBLE GRACE which will not even be offered to them in the first place since Christ did not make LIMITED ATONEMENT for them.

    Or this Gospel of National Election.

    God’s Son came to the earth as a fulfillment of God’s Promise to the people of Israel. They rejected Him for the most part. Because He has promised their patriarchs a land and a nation in the future and because He elected them apart from all the other nations on the earth he will distinguish them among all the nations in the future.EZ 37:28 makes this painfully clear. During the times of the Gentiles Jesus is waiting at the right hand of His Father. He took the wrath that is coming upon the nations that surround Israel which includes every person on the planet but specifically Jacob’s brothers the Edomites and their neighbors. They can choose to repent of their sins and put their faith in “Israel’s” Messiah who just so happens to be GOD (Romans 9:5)or suffer the Wrath of God. When God uses the term Messiah He is dealing with nations at the national level, when God deals with the term my Son, He is dealing with people on the individual level. ANYONE who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved From the Day of the Lord’s Wrath (Joel 2:30-32).

    This has no catch, no philosophy, no hidden meaning. God wants all to come to repentance and He has NO favorites. All must repent Jew and Gentile. But some time in the future the election enemies of God will be turned by His Word. They will be the ones that enter into the new heavens and new earth as the Church governs with Christ in our glorified bodies along side them.

    For me the Gospel changed radially after leaving my four point Calvinism behind. This happened last year when was when I was trying study my way into the five point position. It was then that I stumbled into Joel’s position on Israel and I left the European Anti Christ teaching behind as I had LEFT the Pre Trib teaching BEHIND years earlier.

    I hope you see clearly that it is the “Surrounding Nations” that attack Israel. This started affecting my doctrine of individual election so much that I started studying Calvinism with a guarded heart and mind…until I had to drop it all together..(about six months ago) I could never be convinced that the God of the Bible is best understood outside of His plans for Israel. Period.

    The funny thing is that all the PRE WRATH people I have studied under and admire are Calvinists! So there you go… we can all learn from each other anyway… God bless you..Steve. and please consider what I wrote about Esau.. are you O.K. with the worship of a God that has consigned billions upon billions to Hell and has given the absolutely NO WAY of avoiding it all to bring Himself Glory…..!!!! This is the difference as I see it… between individual and national election.


  • Troy
    Posted at 01:45h, 29 July

    @ Steve..

    I made a huge mistake in the previous post. “The Elect Enemies of the Gospel” not [the elect enemies of God] according to the Greek. It does not say the elect are enemies of God as John Piper (a replacement theologian} teaches. The difference is great…Romans 11:28. “As regards to the Gospel they are enemies for your sake But as regards “election” they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers”.

    Sorry about that, but it must be understood correctly, or it is too easy to beat up on Israel as a nation that God hates which defies everything that God has revealed about his chosen ones (Is 41:8-20). “But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, “You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off” fear not for I am with you…” keep reading….

  • Steve
    Posted at 13:24h, 29 July

    Brother, there is a lot of things I would do different if I was God! But I trust in the way He does things-even if they are difficult to understand. I still see individual election in Ron 8, then the group thing in 9, but if words mean what they mean, it is still God doing the choosing. We will just have to agree to disagree on this brother. 🙂 Let me just answer you with a few Scriptures I fall back on when I don’t understand- WHY God! “For My thought are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways, declares the Lord…” ” Isa 55. “Then the Lord said to Job,”Will the faultfinder contend with the Almighty? Let him who reproves God answer it.” Job 40 “On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?” I don’t have all the answers Troy, but I can read what is plainly written. Peace to you too brother! God will correct all of us one day, and then it probably won’t matter. 🙂

  • Robert Young
    Posted at 16:59h, 29 July


    Joel had recommended Tim Warner’s book “The Time of the End”. I don’t know if you have read it but it is quite interesting. Tim uses the 120 Jubilee Year Calendar and also a Biblical chronology to assess where we are at on God’s timetable.

    I am quite leery of date setters but Tim Warner is a very bright guy. He makes a case for chiliasm which the early church believed in. Basically Christ would return after 6k years from Adam with a 1k year Millennium. The key would be to accurately calculate this. He said in his book that no one knew the day or hour at the time of the early church because they relied on the Septuagint which was off by 100 years per generation. He gave other reasons that I don’t recall.

    I know this must turn a lot of stomachs and I am there with you. If anyone has read this book I would love to hear your comments.


  • Julie
    Posted at 14:45h, 20 September

    You have become my “go-to” guy for much of my end times study. Your scholarship has helped to re-focus and shape my perspective on current events. When I saw this link to alan kurschner’s book, I checked it out, having never heard of him. What I saw on his website made my stomach sick. Without knowing one single thing about the man I was able to see that pretty much all of his energy, right now at least, is dedicated to railing against all things Hebrew roots. SICKENING!! There are so many things in the world that we, as Believers, can unite against. Attacking people who believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob should be low on the list. I personally have benefitted in ways I cannot express from my study of Scriptures with some of the best Hebrew Roots teachers (Bill Cloud being top of the heap). To study the Word of God with no consideration to the Hebraic perspective, the Hebrew way of thinking or the original language (HEBREW!!!) it was written in is foolish, at best.
    This is not one of those “if you support this man/idea i will quit sending you money” type of notes. I will continue to support YOU but I will run as far away from mr. kurschner as possible.
    I enjoy keeping the Moedim!
    I enjoy keeping Torah!
    I do so not in order to be saved but BECAUSE I am saved by the blood of Yeshua (a fine Torah-keeping, Moedim-keeping Jewish Rabbi). I wish that Christians would realize that when one of there most venerated Apostles, Paul, was writing, all of his references to “the word” or “scriptures” was to the TANACH/TORAH. There was no New Testament yet!
    May G-d continue to bless you and the work that you do.

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