Long story short: Because it has been the perfect proxy against their biggest enemies, Iran, Assad and the Kurds, including the Turkish Kurd group, the PKK. For all of its veneer of being a moderate secular nation, behind it all, Erdogan is an Islamist with some long term goals.
For the long version, read Daniel Pipes article in the Washington Times.
IF you do not read the whole article, be sure to read the last line.
37 Responses
It’s not what you imagined in the 80’s huh? A whole lot scarier and with our porous southern border, Jihad could be coming to a neighborhood near you. All the more reason to remain awake and vigilant.
Stand Firm everyone.
As I commented earlier…
http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/061914-705486-isis-leader-see-you-in-new-york.htm?ven=rss&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
I still maintain that the amount of fighting that has taken place since 9/11 in the Middle East, until now, will be dwarfed by the amount of fighting that will take place between now and the Second Coming of the Authentic King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Developing a habit of prayer now will make it easier down the road to maintain this good habit.
sounds like Daniel 8 to me…
Indeed, Brian How…I was just thinking a preview of Daniel 8 too as I read Pipes article. Do we know too much for our own good? Uh, no.
Events are being staged right now for those who watch and pray…but does anyone else in the Church take us seriously when we tell them?
Blessings!
I had told my former Sr Pastor and his wife (long since retired) of the results of my studies and Joel’s et al, It was dinner with him and his wife. They have held that Mystery Babylon is the Roman Catholic Church and the Traditional Roman Antichrist theory since the ’70s. I hadn’t seen them in years and had trouble containing my zeal. She accused me of going mad from much study.
The wake call has been sounding and Church kept hitting the snooze button. I pray that Lindsey, LaHaye and VanImpe wake up to the Middle East Paradigm soon.
And now with Iran pouring in troops into Iraq, will anger Turkey more, and we are on the door stop of Persia being swiftly struck down by Turkey, The Ram vs the Goat Again……
Doug,
I don’t think the light bulb will turn on until their head is on the block. My wife with their women’s group read Joel’s books and a small study I did on the second coming. Do what you can with the laymen, that’s who will listen. Peace in the Lord!
I really don’t understand the blowback to the Islamic theory amongst “learned” types. Is it a matter of pride? Are they holding on desperately to bad logic merely because they are embarrassed to be wrong? I have to be honest, at this point with Joel’s and Walid’s books in conjunction with the plainly obvious events unfolding right in front of us, it makes me wonder what ulterior motives prevent people from seeing it.
That’s why we are doing End Times Refocused: Las Vegas Bible Prophecy Conference in August with Joel, Alan Kurschner, Mark Davidson, Nelson Walters, Usama Dakdok and others. We want to light bulb to shine as brightly as possible while it still can.
http://BibleProphecyConference.org
Check it out! If you can’t come tell someone one.
The article possibly ties in with the third signpost in “Gospel in the End Times” by Nelson Walters
Bonjour,
Has any one of you read the following articles courtesy of Walid Shoebat?
Iraq Is Collapsing And The Antichrist’s Iranian-Turkish SINISTER Plan Is Unfolding Right Before Our Eyes
http://shoebat.com/2014/06/19/iraq-collapsing-antichrists-iranian-turkish-sinister-plan-unfolding-right-eyes/
And
Bible Prophecy Is Being Fulfilled And Iraq Is Breaking Into Three Provinces
http://shoebat.com/2014/06/20/bible-prophecy-fulfilled-iraq-breaking-three-provinces/
Pretty interesting insights. What do you think, Joel?
Love, blessings and shalom from France,
FX
I’m confused. Walid believes there’s a Turkey-Iran conspiracy in all of this and made them as allies. But you see Iran and Turkey as enemies aka Ram and Goat. You both authored the book ‘God’s War on Teror’ did you not? So why the disagreement?
“I’m confused. Walid believes there’s a Turkey-Iran conspiracy in all of this and made them as allies. But you see Iran and Turkey as enemies aka Ram and Goat. ”
Turkey and Iran are not bitter enemies. They are frequent competitors and occasional enemies… the converse of that is they are also occasionally allies or tacitly complicit in their affairs.
I would say fair-weather enemies is closer to the truth. Opportunists, both.
@Jie – You can write a book together, but it doesn’t mean you need to see eye to eye on every subject. Also explaining prophecy is a very fluid process as are the developments in the middle east.
The bible says God will put hooks in the jaws of Gog to draw him out. Iran and Turkey may seem neutral to each other now, but something will set off Turkey in the future which will lead them to invade the middle east under the leadership of antichrist.
Also lets not forget, before the antichrist comes, first there needs to be a falling away, also the restrainer will be taken away. Personally I don’t know yet what that could be, but I’m sure it will be a significant event, the effects of which we will be able to see on earth. And we would also need to see the rebuilding of the temple at some point. Until all of this a lot can still change and we can differ a lot about prophecy in the mean time.
Joel do you think the war of the ram against the goat is the same war as the one of Ezekiel 38?
First, I would say that within the world of prophecy teachers, there can be a bit of a problem that I call “prophet syndrome.” This is where some teachers seek to defend their own perspectives, as if their identity or validity depends upon it. Although many claim to merely be expositing Scripture, it is as if there is a subtle notion that they have an anointing to do so that is above others, thus making them have a bit of a prophet mentality. Its a dangerous trap to fall into. Yes, some are called to be teachers, and some are specifically called to teach concerning issues such as prophecy, but one should not assume that simply because one teaches prophecy, that they are thus a prophet themselves. If you google my name, an article by Media Matters will pop up which claims that I claimed to be a prophet. What I did was claimed that God had called me to teach on the subject of prophecy. I suppose I can understand why unbelievers might have misunderstood my words, though in the case of Media Matters, I generally assume they don’t; really care for truth, just demagoguery. Never the less, though I try to be a responsible prophecy teacher, and do in fact seek to be a prophetic voice, I have never claimed to be a prophet, nor do I view myself this way in any way, shape, or form.
All that said, I’m convinced that humility is key. Everyone is peering diligently into the Scriptures to better understand what they are indicating. And insights are gained and shared along the way. But no one knows how it is all going to pan out in detail. Anyone who claims they do is deceived.
My guess based on my understanding is that if Daniel 7 & 8 are to be understood in a futurist fashion, then Iran will launch a regional war. The three ribs could be three sections of Iraq, or they could be a portion of Iraq, Syria, Azerbaijan, and Bahrain or some other combination of these. Later, Turkey will respond. Mark Davidson sees this as a four nation coalition. I would suspect that Turkey goes it alone.
After this, the prominent horn is broken off and the Turkish effort somewhat collapses, breaking up into four segments. I would see this as referring to the regions that Turkey had just assumed. Thus, it need not mean that Turkey itself breaks into four, but that the new larger Turkey so to speak ends in four new regions. Then out of one of these, eventually arises the little horn. It starts small but rises to become dominant. This could be from the region o Kurdistan, or it could be from the region of the new ISIS Caliphate, or it could be Syria or it could be from Turkey in general.
One of the challenges in understanding the picture painted is that on one hand, Ezekiel places such a large emphasis on Asia Minor, i.e.. modern day Turkey. But Daniel 8 and 11 place such a huge emphasis on Seleucia. There is significant overlap, but not perfect overlap. So there is some ambiguity.
Later, after this northern power gains strength and takes over all ten horns, then I believe this is when he will see the war with Egypt.
Finally, after this, the actual Gog Magog war, which is the full blown and final invasion of Israel, the Battle of Armageddon.
This is my view.
I think he’ll come from Mosul.
“From you (Nineveh) comes one who plots evil against the Lord, a wicked counselor” Nahum 1:11
Its similar to what the angel says of him in Daniel 8
“A king shall arise, having fierce features, and understands sinister schemes”
“I would suspect that Turkey goes it alone.”
If Turkey is clearly the attacker, yes.
But suppose that Iran attacks Turkey, or Turkey somehow provokes Iran to attack it…
Then automatically the NATO charter is effectuated, and considerable support for Turkey against Iran from Europe and/or the US is probable.
Especially if Iran is at that moment seen as a worse bad guy than Turkey – which is logical if Iran before has conquered countries.
Joel,
“Later, after this northern power gains strength and takes over all ten horns, then I believe this is when he will see the war with Egypt.”
I personally differ on this interpretation.
I think that Daniel 11 (which chronicles the war between the Kinog of the North and the King of the South) is a broad picture of the time prior to, and during the tribulation.
I note that Daniel 11 spans a number of years, and chronicles a back and forth battle, where at various times, the North attacks/invades the South, and vice-versa:
“3 For the king of the North will muster another army, larger than the first; and after several years, he will advance with a huge army fully equipped. 14 “In those times many will rise against the king of the South. Those who are violent among your own people will rebel in fulfillment of the vision, but without success.”
“He will determine to come with the might of his entire kingdom and will make an alliance with the king of the South. And he will give him a daughter in marriage in order to overthrow the kingdom, but his plans[c] will not succeed or help him. 18 Then he will turn his attention to the coastlands and will take many of them, but a commander will put an end to his insolence and will turn his insolence back on him. 19 After this, he will turn back toward the fortresses of his own country but will stumble and fall, to be seen no more.
20 “His successor will send out a tax collector to maintain the royal splendor. In a few years, however, he will be destroyed, yet not in anger or in battle.”
“29 “At the appointed time he will invade the South again, but this time the outcome will be different from what it was before. 30 Ships of the western coastlands will oppose him, and he will lose heart. Then he will turn back and vent his fury against the holy covenant. He will return and show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant. 31 “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. 32 With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.”
Whether one believes in a 7 year tribulation, or only a 3.5 years tribulation, the war between the King of the South and the King of the North appears to occur before the tribulation ever begins, and the three horns (Kingdom of the South) do not appear to be uprooted until the end of the War.
I believe the North/South War occurs before the Tribulation, and is resumed towards the end of the tribulation as part of Antichrist’s downward spiral.
I’m not sure the little horn takes over the remaining 7 horns. I think the little horn may also be the head of a coalition or alliance (as opposed to ruling over the others).
“I am convinced humility is the key.” – J. Richardson
I so heartily agree. Anything that is truth that we have been given is a gift of the Holy Spirit not of our own doing. Based on the eschatological history of the church, we appear to have been wrong more often than we have found truth. And Daniel appears to still be mostly sealed. But despite this we must contend for the truth. So much is at stake.
Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent. For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps. Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep. But at midnight there was a shout, ‘Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. (Matt. 25:1-7 NASB)
The church, both wise and foolish, are asleep. Only a few are awake to the reality of the times. A great wakeup call is coming when all the virgins will trim their lamps (search the scriptures which are a lamp unto our feet.)
*The wise will need to know where to look in scripture to understand the times.
*Scripture fulfilled before their eyes will be a source of apocalyptic evangelism for the foolish when we reveal it to them.
So we must hold our own theories loosely and let the Spirit continue to guide and mold us. Nothing blocks the working of the Spirit more than the sin of pride. The wakeup call is coming and we need to learn from what has been revealed to others as well as the limited amount each of us has been given individually. We need to “trade scriptures” with each other. So much is at stake for the church and time is short.
Nelson
Extremely well put Nelson. I also agree with Joel that humility is important. It’s hard to put into words, but it’s that humility that speaks volumes to me about the credibility of the author when it comes to prophecy. I often wonder if part of the purpose of prophecy is less about showing us what to expect, and more about God “declaring the end from the beginning” to show his glory to us, so that when we see these things unsealed and happening in ways we did not expect we understand that he is who he says he is. Great comments by everyone by the way!
I think we have had out wake up call and we pressed the snooze button.
I am posting the whole lyrics to Keith Green’s Asleep In The Light
Read them..
Asleep In The Light
Do you see do you see
All the people sinking down
Don’t you care don’t you care
Are you gonna let them drown
How can you be so numb
Not to care if they come
You close your eyes
And pretend the job’s done
Oh bless me Lord bless me Lord
You know it’s all I ever hear
No one aches no one hurts
No one even sheds one tear
But He cries He weeps He bleeds
And He cares for your needs
And you just lay back
And keep soaking it in
Oh can’t you see it’s such sin
‘Cause He brings people to your door
And you turn them away
As you smile and say
God bless you be at peace
And all heaven just weeps
‘Cause Jesus came to your door
You’ve left Him out on the streets
Open up open up
And give yourself away
You see the need you hear the cries
So how can you delay
God’s calling and you’re the one
But like Jonah you run
He’s told you to speak
But you keep holding it in
Oh can’t you see it’s such a sin
The world is sleeping in the dark
That the church just can’t fight
‘Cause it’s asleep in the light
How can you be so dead
When you’ve been so well fed
Jesus rose from the grave
And you you can’t even get out of bed
Oh Jesus rose from the dead
Come on get out of your bed
How can you be so numb
Not to care if they come
You close your eyes
And pretend the job’s done
You close your eyes
And pretend the job’s done
Don’t close your eyes
Don’t pretend the job’s done
Come away come away come away
With Me my love
Come away from this mess
Come away with Me my love
CCLI Song # 271388
Keith Green
© 1978 Birdwing Music * (Admin. by EMI Christian Music Publishing) (Admin. by BMG Music Publishing)
Ok please don’t be upset with me, although i’m with the partially fulfilled Dan 8, i am none the less really trying to be fair and see another view point, only i have the type of mind that gets plagued by questions, frustrating when there is no one to bug.
Can anyone out there help, i ask sincerely, it appears that no one objects to the Greek influence in Daniel 8 historically, Alexander the great and Greek culture implementation ect, yet in full futurism it seems to be completely omitted, but if the past is to be repeated as some have said, doesn’t it have to play a part?
I take on board that Joel said Javan includes parts of turkey (an interesting study in it self). But as Angel Gabriel identified the goat as Grecia, shouldn’t Greece be in the picture? If not, are we saying that Alexander has no place in bible prophesy?
Sorry if i appear awkward, i think i have a 2+2=4 type of understanding, and i wont be offended if this is not a profitable post Joel.
Joel, The Lord told His disciples things before they happened so that when they occurred,his disciples would believe He was the Messiah, John 13:19. It’s still the same today,the purpose of Prophecy is to point us towards the Messiah.Remember we can’t prove anything before it happens only after.
Nelson is right,fulfilled prophecy is a source of evangelism,God’s true heart is that no one will perish, 2 Peter 3:9.
It doesn’t matter how much revelation God drops in your spirit, you will only reach certain people.That is why He has more than one teacher.
Every teachers goal should be the second coming of Christ. stay humble.
Linda, I think that your conundrum is resolved if you see the prophecy as having a partial historical fulfillment and a more full future fulfillment. As for the Hellenization of Antiochus, there is no actual specific mention of that in the text.
Near and far fulfillment are like looking at a mountain range. We see the overall shape but not the peaks and dips. Biblical prophecy was written through the Prophet’s perception, not necessarily with an eagle eye view. From a distance a mountain range may look like one peak, but in reality it could be a composite of several. God is not limited by our concept of time and space. His omniscience knows no boundaries or limitations.
Dirk,
You said:
Rev. 17 says:
I think it is safe to say that giving their strength and power to him is the same as allegiance to him as their leader. It certainly would seem to be more than a loose coalition.
Joel,
Where you appear to see a statement indicating 10 leaders giving authority to 1 ruler, I see 10 leaders giving authority to a greater collective (which leaves unanswered the issue of how much authority Antichrist has in the collective).
“Rev. 17:
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
I think it is safe to say that giving their strength and power to him is the same as allegiance to him as their leader. It certainly would seem to be more than a loose coalition.”
Rev. 17 clearly says that the kings (“horns”) give their power to the Beast. I submit that the beast is the collective form of the 10 kingdoms itself (not specifically the Antichrist, who is a “little horn” himself). Thus, the power that is given is clearly given to the collective. What I believe remains unclear is whether the collective is ruled over by Antichrist, or rather to what extent Antichrist controls this collective.
I would be inclined to agree with your interpretation if not for the ambiguity of the Greek word “μετά” translated as “with” (as in “receive authority as kings WITH the beast”) but the word is more ambiguous and less helpful in that sense.
As is, I think it’s not entirely impossible for the Little Horn’s level of influence to grow or shrink, either.
Note that 3 of the horns are uprooted entirely.
If we view the horns of Revelation 17 as being in submission to the authority of the little horn, then why are they being uprooted? If we view the uprooting in the light of a coalition or confederacy then I believe it would make more sense as to why one horn would remove three other horns: the power having been vested in the collective, Antichrist would still have a clear motive (control) for uprooting the three dissenting horns.
Blessings.
OK thank you Joel, i will continue to take note,if ever you and your family ever feel the nudge to move, the uk is very needy.(smiley face)
I think it may be worth noting, that the kings only reign as kings for
ONE HOUR, but ac reigns for a whole 42 months.
Blessings
The term “one hour” signifies a short time. It is not literally only an hour. : )
Thank you Joel, i kind of realized that (amazingly! but there was a big probability that i wouldn’t, smiley face, so thanks for pointing it out) i guess i was unsuccessfully trying to compare their short reign, with the reign of ac, meaning he would be their supreme dictator. I was considering the above comments about a coalition. I’ve always pictured him plucking up three kings, then the others just submitting, seeing only defeat in battle. Hope we all wont be around to find out.
Blessings
Hi Joel,
Where do the Parthians fit into the Babylon and statue prophecy. They have ruled the mid-east for more than 3 ages until the perzians took over again.
The link to the Pipes article goes to the Opinion Home page –and I cannot locate the column anywhere on the Times site. In addition, the article is no longer available on Daniel Pipes’ blog.
???
I’m curious as to what that “last line” was?
War between Iran and Turkey.
Why do you think the column was removed by the Times, and also by Pipes?
Great radio cast. Not sure that it was our right’ to uphold Arab dictators. I agree that the islamic alternative is quite scary, but that does mean we should turn these countries into militaristic dictatorships which rule through violence,fear and oppression, practicing torture and imprisonment and disappearances of its citizens.