14 Jun Is the Vision of Daniel 8 Being Fulfilled Right Now in Iraq and Iran?
If you are a student of Bible prophecy, than I want you to get your Bible out and open it to Daniel chapter 8. Now, if you consult nearly any commentary on the Book of Daniel, you’ll find they nearly all interpret this prophecy as fulfilled in history. The prophecy begins with a ram butting to the west, to the north, and to the south, which most believe refers to the historical conquests of the Medo-Persian Empire:
[B]ehold, a ram which had two horns was standing in front of the canal. Now the two horns were long, but one was longer than the other, with the longer one coming up last. I saw the ram butting westward, northward, and southward, and no other beasts could stand before him nor was there anyone to rescue from his power, but he did as he pleased and magnified himself. (vv. 3-4)
After this, a male goat with a single prominent horn charged from the east and crushed the ram. Most understand this to refer to the historical conquests of the Greek armies (the goat) led by Alexander the Great (the prominent horn):
While I was observing, behold, a male goat was coming from the west over the surface of the whole earth without touching the ground; and the goat had a conspicuous horn between his eyes. He came up to the ram that had the two horns, which I had seen standing in front of the canal, and rushed at him in his mighty wrath. I saw him come beside the ram, and he was enraged at him; and he struck the ram and shattered his two horns, and the ram had no strength to withstand him. So he hurled him to the ground and trampled on him, and there was none to rescue the ram from his power. (vv. 5-7)
No sooner does the Greek goat defeat the Persians and exalt itself that its great leader dies or “was broken.” After this, four other horns grow up in its place. One of these horns in particular, starts small, but eventually becomes great, controlling much of the Middle East. Most interpret this little horn to refer to the historical Antiochus IV Epiphanes:
Then the male goat magnified himself exceedingly. But as soon as he was mighty, the large horn was broken; and in its place there came up four conspicuous horns toward the four winds of heaven. Out of one of them came forth a rather small horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Beautiful Land. (vv. 8-9)
This is where the historical interpretation begins to run into significant problems. For the “little horn” that grows large is not only said to conquer the northern swatch of the Middle East, it is also said to carry out some profound events in heaven:
It grew up to the host of heaven and caused some of the host and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down. It even magnified itself to be equal with the Commander of the host; and it removed the regular sacrifice from Him, and the place of His sanctuary was thrown down. And on account of transgression the host will be given over to the horn along with the regular sacrifice; and it will fling truth to the ground and perform its will and prosper. (vv. 10-12)
Now, will anyone claim that Antiochus caused some of the angels (stars) to fall from heaven? I certainly hope not. In fact, the Book of Revelation describes precisely the same event, but there it is Satan the dragon, who causes the angels to fall, and it is something that takes place in the last seven years before the return of Christ:
Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth… the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. (Rev. 12:3-4,7-9 emphasis mine).
Next two angels began explaining the vision of the ram and the goat and the little horn, and Daniel is given some profound information concerning the timing of these things. One angel standing on the banks of the River Ulai (which is in modern day Iran) called to the other angel and said, “Gabriel, give this man an understanding of the vision” (v. 16). So the Gabriel came to Daniel and said, “Son of man, understand that the vision pertains to the time of the end” (v. 17).
Suddenly the idea that this was soley about the historical Persian and Greek empires becomes very difficult. Gabriel himself told Daniel that the vision concerned the end times. He did not say that part of the vision was historical and part of it was future. He simply said that the vision concerned the time of the end. If it was not enough to say it once, Gabriel then repeated his statement to really let it sink in again stating: “Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation, for it pertains to the appointed time of the end” (v. 19).
To be fair, Gabriel then went on to explain that the ram represented, “the kings of Media and Persia,” while the goat represented, “the kingdom of Greece.” The word there for Greece is actually Javan, which included the west coast of modern day Turkey as well.
Now, I have always interpreted the vision to pertain to the historical empires of Medo-Persia and Greece, and then the little horn, while being partially fulfilled in the life of Antiochus Epiphanes, to be ultimately fulfilled in the last days through Antichrist. Thus I only interpreted half of the vision to have end time fulfillment. Many other commentators hold to this view as well. Although I have over 100 commentaries on the Book of Daniel, I had never really considered any other view until I read “Daniel Revisited” by Mark Davidson. In that book, Davidson takes a radical futurist perspective, and though I may not agree with all of his interpretations, he makes some excellent points, which I had simply never considered. When we actually read the explanation of Gabriel, the truth is that he does not make any such break in the vision, placing some of it in history and some of it the future. He simply says that the vision pertains to the final period of indignation, the time of the end. And then he says it again quite directly.
If the ultimate meaning of the whole vision is eschatological, pertaining to the time of the end, while it may also certainly maintain a historical partial fulfillment, it may also very well speak of two forthcoming regional wars. The first war would be Iran “butting” as it were to the west, (Iraq, Syria, Lebanon) the north (Azerbaijan) and the south (Bahrain, and perhaps as far as Israel and Egypt). But after this Iranian regional effort to expand its power, Turkey in the east would launch a counter offensive. After this time, it appears as though out of the ashes of these wars, in the region stretching from Nineveh (Mosul) to Turkey, we should expect to see the Antichrist arise, starting small but then gaining in power.
With Iran having already declared that they will enter the fray in Iraq to respond to the ISIS offensive, the beginning of Daniel’s vision may very well be beginning to unfold right in front of us. Am I saying that this is absolutely how it is going to happen and “this is that?” Not yet, but I think we can all acknowledge that what is now unfolding in Iraq and Iran makes this all a very real possibility.
jean deanPosted at 06:33h, 14 June
Thanks, Joel, for this post. I am definitely tracking with you here, regarding Daniel’s vision of Chapter 8.
We are witnessing the RISING of the Antichrist, and the Beast. Soon, and very soon, the “mark” of the Beast is going to be forced on every man, woman, and child throughout all the nations!
It is true, we are watching the “time of the End” that Gabriel spoke about unfold right before our eyes. And, it’s a sickening feeling. Remember reading how sick these visions made Daniel?
Who doesn’t remember where they were, and how they felt while watching the Towers come down right before our eyes on 9/11? That queasy feeling in our ‘gut’ that incorporated all our emotions at once: fear, sadness, anxiety, dread, anger, confusion, even desperation, etc., and how all we wanted to do, at that point, was gather our family and loved ones unto ourselves, and simply keep them very, very close to us. Nothing else matter!
And, people crowded into churches by the droves!
Well, that’s the feeling that’s beginning to come over us now, as we watch, in horror, the things unfolding in Iraq, right before my eyes.
ISIS, with their demonstrated power, determination, and speed, in which they are doing all they have set out to do, is super natural, indeed!
Daniel 7:7, “… and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet …”
May YHWH God help the innocents who live in any city or town controlled by the ISIS. And, may YHWH God help any non-Muslim who, today, lives in any Muslim land!
And, may YHWH God help America! If He removes His hand from us, we are gone!!!
My prayers is for those of us who belong to the Lord Jesus/Adonai Yeshua, will unite, stand strong, and “POWER UP,” through the Holy Spirit, to go forth throughout the land, gathering as many souls to our Lord Jesus/Adonai Yeshua, and His Kingdom, as He gives us strength and guidance to do. “Eternal” issues are the ONLY issues that should matter to us now. That’s all that matters to Him!
In His grip,
HermanPosted at 09:48h, 14 June
By the first news about ISIS that conquered half of Iraq i searched your site for your opinion about this situation because of some endtime bells were ringing in my head;-)
Time will learn us the exactly interpretation of the prophecies. I think the Christians in Iraq need prayers!
Jesus is Coming soon!
Be blessed by the Lord Joel.
Greeting from a guy in the Nederlands.
linda keyesPosted at 11:13h, 14 June
Well I am truly no student or historian.
But in my humble opinion, I think Dan 8 is both historic and futuristic, although I don’t think that Antiochus Epiphanes is actually referred to in this text.
I believe Daniel is shown the next successive kingdom of dan 2,then he is shown that out one of the four horns of the Grecian emire comes the antichrist.Then in v19 the last indignation explanation is promised:
V23 for me Clearly states that the Grecian empire will be around in the end times when ac comes,(not the domain of Alexander, but that of the four four generals) also in Joel 3v6 cleary an end times chapter, Israel has been sold to the Grecian’s.
I believe what we are seeing is the ground starting to tremble as the ‘wounded head’ is being resurrected, which I think is the Grecian empire(which today is all Islamic I think bar Macedonia) so I am not
in disagreement about the ottoman empire.
I cant see a full futuristic Daniel 11 as a full futuristic view would necessitate, there is a lot to happen yet, sadly a lot of death, and an oil rich Israel, ten kings, then when the ac comes more war to take the kings domain. At this time for what its worth that’s how I see it. It seems inadequate to say that’s its interesting to watch, as people are dying, I just pray that Gods people will wake up and truly walk in the spirit as we are called.
gilesPosted at 13:35h, 14 June
Time will tell if this is the trigger for the Iranian invasion spoken of in Dan 8.
I had the impression that the iranian attack would be more like the invasion of iraq in 2003 – full throttle. At the moment the iranian response seems to be a little at a time. The papers here reported only 150 sent to Iraq. Time will tell. It might be like the Vietnam war; before the Americans invaded fully, teams of combat advisors were sent first.
What might happen is some sort of desecration of Shiite holy sites in Iraq would prompt such outrage in Iran that it would act as a catalyst for mass depolyment. Any Shiite holy places in Iraq?
JoelPosted at 13:48h, 14 June
Any Shiite holy places in Iraq?
Yes. There are various cities with very important shrines decimated to to Ali or Hussayn, etc. But also with reference to the coming Mahdi, which some believe he will reside in Kufa I believe.
NelsonPosted at 14:31h, 14 June
The question is how do we react as Christians? How do we prepare? I will address that most important question at the end of this post.
Blow a trumpet in Zion and sound an alarm on My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble for the day of the Lord is coming; surely it is near…It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; and your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions, even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days. (Joel 2:1, 28-29 NASB)
God is on the move! First in partial fulfillment of this passage, the church was given the sign that the Beast will be Islamic. Joel you were the servant God gave that revelation to. Next he gave the sign in Dan. 8:17, that the vision of Daniel 8 is for our times; that events occur prior to the Tribulation. Mark Davidson was the servant he gave that sign to. Both of these were mighty signs for the church. Understanding that has been sealed for two thousand years of church history is now unsealed. That alone is a sign that we are in the “time of the end” (Dan. 12:4). He gave us these signs now so the church can know the times, know what to watch for and be alerted to prepare.
This year He has also given us another sign in the form of understanding of a third verse that has not been fully understood for two thousand years in Matt. 24:45. (hint: the answer to Jesus’ riddle in this verse is Joseph.) Jesus gave us a full chapter and a half of instructions on how to prepare for the end times in the final half of Matt.24 and all of Matt. 25. Readers can find a full end-time interpretation of this portion of the Olivet Discourse in seven posts at http://www.thegospelintheendtimes.com/part-5-how-should-christians-prepare/
Right now the most critical preparation we can make is to awaken the church to the reality of what is coming. They are sleeping. We have a ministry to do just that by reaching out to church leaders one-on-one and city-by-city. If readers wish to get involved they can contact us via the website. Every city needs a messenger.
Also for those who can afford the trip to Las Vegas, Joel and Mark are speaking at this conference in August. http://www.bibleprophecyconference.org/ A number of other speakers will be there as well including my friend Greg Maxwell and myself. It is time to “Blow the Trumpet in Zion.”
DirkPosted at 18:14h, 14 June
I would agree insofar as I think that Daniel 8 is referring to the end of time primarily. That being said, I think the prophecy is relevant throughout time. I would liken the effect to a two handed watch. If it is 11:30AM, and I tell you that the end of the day will occur when both hand are pointing to the “12” then a half hour later you might mistake the end of the morning (noon) for being the end of the day because both hands of the watch are pointing to 12 when noon comes, when in truth I was referring to Midnight. When the hands point to noon, something significant is indeed happening (the end of the morning, the start of the afternoon), and indeed the action of the two hands pointing to 12 will repeat again. Due to the inherent design of the watch, the signal for noon is a precise preview of what will occur at Midnight.
In the same manner, I believe the historical events of ancient Grecia and ancient Persia and Antiochus Epiphanes are previews for what will come.
NelsonPosted at 21:35h, 14 June
My opinion is you are correct. These foreshadows in history help us to understand what the future events might look like. It isn’t an either/or proposition. Historically though, for 2500 years, the future fulfillment of Daniel 8 is something that NO ONE saw. Daniel 8:17 and 8:19 were right there for everyone to see and no one saw it. Keep reading in Daniel and we can see why. Dan. 8:26 shows the Angel Gabriel commanding this specific vision to be sealed. The revealing of the meaning of the vision isn’t something academic, it’s supernatural. God is doing something new. The time of the end is upon us.
Now the time of the end means doesn’t that Jesus returns tomorrow but that the period God has designated and labeled as the time of the end is here. We need to be about our Master’s business. Nelson
JoelPosted at 22:04h, 14 June
One thing I would say I am uncomfortable with is the idea that I am a servant that opened a seal or that Mark is such an individual. This isn’t to say that the Lord doesn’t use various voices to awaken others, but I think that the unsealing is truly a work of the Body of Christ together with a multitude of contributors. Many teachers have seen a primary role of Islam in the last days. Others such as G.H. Lang and a few others, took the view that Daniel 7 was to be interpreted in a futurist manner. So we all have bits and pieces to contribute. I think there is danger in putting too much credit on one or even a few men. We are all just fools stumbling in the darkness for light.
brad zischPosted at 22:22h, 14 June
What a great attitude Joel. Thanks so much for being a great example.
good4uPosted at 23:17h, 14 June
Joel is correct. If God gave all revelation to one person, that person would be puffed up and not be usable for God’s purposes. God in his ever infinite wisdom gives prophetic “puzzle pieces” to many so that they may all wrestle together to make the pieces fit into a comprehendible picture that makes sense for all who chose to view the picture in Scripture and current events.
You must be willing to be a good Berean to study, learn from others, compare and contrast, look out into the world for event verification and then talk to your pastors and elders armed with evidence that the facts speak for themselves and let God take care of the rest for the reaction of the message. It is not for us to change minds, it is God’s. The sooner we accept this spiritual principle, the more at peace we will be.
NelsonPosted at 13:01h, 15 June
I believe the revealing of scripture is always the work of the Holy Spirit, never of man. Sorry if that wasn’t clear. And yes, it is definitely given to the body of Christ and each member contributes,adds and builds on the work of the others. That is why we are a body. We are limited without the other parts contributing and blind without the Spirit. Some however are also given the gift of being able to communicate the revealing of scripture and appear more prominent.
The greatest in the Kingdom is the one who serves. We all serve in different ways based on the gifts we are given.
JoelPosted at 13:48h, 15 June
JeannePosted at 15:00h, 15 June
And here’s a taste of what’s going on in Turkey:
EgbertPosted at 21:22h, 15 June
It seems that Daniel 9:10 and Revelation 12:4 have some things in common. But the swiping away of a third of the angels by the dragon, how can that be future? Wasn’t that something which happened before Genesis 6?
JoelPosted at 22:36h, 15 June
The initial rebellion may have occurred back then, but they continue to have access to the lower heavens. Their being cast out of heaven does not occur until the final period. read through the remainder of the chapter to see that the dragon and his angels are not cast out of heaven until the final 3.5 years.
ChristopherPosted at 23:33h, 15 June
it is my understanding that Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven after Jesus died, resurrected, and ascended. He conquered the power Satan had in heaven and earth.
Would you agree or disagree that the Antichrist is the angel from the bottomless pit?
Thank you for sharing your perspective.
JoelPosted at 01:46h, 16 June
Jesus said he saw Satan falling from heaven like lightening, but this does not happen until the last 3.5 years. Again, read Rev. 12. The angel that arises from the bottomless pit is the demonic spirit that will animate and possesses the Antichrist. But the Antichrist is a man, “the man of sin.”
GeorgePosted at 01:58h, 16 June
Michael APosted at 02:49h, 16 June
I’m confused, is that to say satan has not already been cast out of heaven? Also what do you mean by “lower heaven”, and how or why do they still have access to it? Just curious.
JoelPosted at 10:23h, 16 June
Correct, Satan has not already been cast down out of heaven. The Bible teaches there are also the highest heavens where the throne of God is. The following is all future, and will take place in the last days:
And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole fnworld; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. “And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even fnwhen faced with death. “For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who fndwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.” And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. (Revelation 12:7-13)
EgbertPosted at 13:37h, 16 June
You personally believe that Christians who call God ‘allah’ did it after the Islam came in, in history.
If you look into Middle-East Cristianity, they Always had used the Syriac version of the NT. The oldest Syriac NT is a few ages from BEFORE Islam, and it has Alaha in Aramaic, where translators would use ‘God’.
Now I have understood, that Allah is just the Arabic translation of exactly that.
I don’t think you would claim that the Aramaic Alaha is because of Islam, right?
And b.t.w. the female form of Allah is ‘Allat’. Well, this means goddess and ‘she’ was before Islam also an important figure.
Mark DavidsonPosted at 15:55h, 16 June
Thank you for finally reading my book. I mean that sincerely, for I know you have wanted to but you’ve been so busy. It looks like you are finding it interesting. And yes my interpretation for Daniel 7 and 8 being completely fulfilled in the end times is radical to many, just as the idea of an Islamic Antichrist is radical to all those who refuse to budge from the dangerous idea of a Roman Antichrist.
I know you have voiced concern to me in the past about going down a path of seeing how the Four Signposts will play out. And I can appreciate that brother. But the reason I do this is two-fold. Any new theory must be tested. Just as you have been trying to show that the Middle East could indeed yield the Antichrist, I had to show that this new signpost interpretation – allowed now because of the unsealing of Daniel – was entirely plausible because of the geopolitics of the Middle East. And even though the Signpost interpretation has logical step upon logical step to the point of being obvious in the end, most people won’t bother to read about it until they see the events unfold.
The second reason is that (as you may have seen in the last four chapters of my book) the details in the verses of the visions combined with the exact geopolitics and situations of the Mideast today are interweaving so closely that there really is one obvious and general path.
Those who have read my book have told me time and again about the incredible interweaving of the verses and today’s Middle East. I felt I would be doing the church a disservice if I didn’t spell it out, since my own research has yielded Daniel 7 and 8 as a target-rich environment in the Middle East, for fulfillment.
Thanks again Joel for writing about this topic and my book. I’ve been watching and waiting for the Second Signpost to begin for years. I have been wary and feared the time but I know that it must happen because God’s Word says so. And now it looks like the Sunni-Shia conflict has moved from Syria to Iran’s doorstep. How appropriate.
I made a post on my site about this subject of ISIS. I do believe this is finally it, and that we have entered the last phase prior to the ram running out and the bear gorging itself.
Your friend and brother,
Michael McCulloughPosted at 17:21h, 16 June
I reread Davidson’s “Daniel Revisited” on Saturday and have a few comments.
Please keep in mind that Davidson is a better scholar, better Christian, and better man than I can ever hope to be. Whether Davidson is correct in his interpretation remains to be seen, but I believe he has made significant contributions toward understanding the big picture played out in Daniel. All I have to offer are suggestions for refining some of his views.
1. There is plenty of room for reasonable and polite disagreement among Christians regarding the end times. I agree with Davidson’s central thesis that Daniel is a book that is sealed up for the end and that we will have greater understanding as we approach the return of Jesus. Davidson opened my eyes to things that I took for granted, made me rethink my assumptions, and I thank him for that.
We may be seeing Davidson’s second signpost—Iran’s invasion of the Middle East— beginning to happen now.
2. I disagree with Davidson’s position on Daniel 7:4 that Iraq is the lion with eagle’s wings who was made to stand like a man.
Though the United States deposed Saddam Hussein and forced free elections on Iraq, I don’t think that the heart of the nation has changed. Al-Maliki is less of a despot than Hussein but the overall character of the country is the same.
Turkey is a better representative of a lion whose wings (governed peoples?) were plucked off after World War I when the allies carved up the Ottoman Empire. After the areas that Turkey controlled were plucked away, Ataturk imposed huge changes on the country to make it more Democratic, more appealing to the rest of Europe, and better resemble a nation governed by the people rather than the latest person to inherit the Caliphate.
For the past 90 years, Turkey has stood unnaturally like a man compared to other major Islamic nations. Now it’s beginning to revert back to its natural nature of being a lion.
3. I doubt Davidson’s idea that Albania is one of the four nations forming part of the leopard in Daniel 7:6.
Nations change boundaries and new nations can be created at the whim of a conqueror, so I don’t believe we can positively identify the four heads of the leopard with current countries at this time.
Assuming Davidson’s point regarding Iran’s domination of the Middle East, there are some areas that may escape conquest, resulting in the radical redrawing of maps. For example, perhaps not all of Saudi Arabia will be conquered, and the second-largest city, Jeddah, governs the remnants from its west coast. Saudi Arabia has a large, highly-trained military and many military bases. Albania has pretty much nothing. It’s possible that what remains of Saudi Arabia constitutes one of the four heads.
4. Daniel mentions many of the areas that make up modern Turkey – Meshech, Tubal, Gomer, Beth Togarmah, and others. It’s possible that Turkey alone retaliates against Iran and that the four heads of the leopard refer to different areas of Turkey.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = =
This is pure conjecture on my part and as one of God’s least, I claim no special insight.
JoelPosted at 17:22h, 16 June
That would be my assumption as well.
David W. LincolnPosted at 18:11h, 16 June
It looks like we are waiting for various people to show up.
1 – the 2 witnesses of Revelation 11
2 – The AC
3 – The False Prophet.
It is wise for us to be honest with God and with ourselves, because the road can be dangerous.
gilesPosted at 18:29h, 16 June
I also doubt the Albanian (seeing that my church alone probably has a higher GDP than them ;-).
Turkey could be plausible as the lion, never thought about that. But it doesnt really match up with the first rider with the empty bow.
On the whole, its a good book and its good to discuss these ideas with others. Personally I’m awaiting some exposure on Zechariah’s wacky visions of flying women, etc
linda keyesPosted at 19:27h, 16 June
As i said i am surely no student, i have been thinking about this and
others comments on this post and previous ones. Wouldn’t it be true that if Daniel 8 was fully futuristic, then Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 and 11 would have to be so as well? as its the same kingdoms spoken of in each of the chapters. Kingdoms and not just countries.
God clearly told Nebuchadnezzar that he was the head of gold, thus his kingdom was also the Lion with eagles wings, Daniel lived to see the Persians take over. I understand the pushings in Daniel 8 to be the settings up of entire kingdoms, so if we had to live to see these kingdoms again established,wouldn’t that make the second coming a long long way off?
Concerning the sealing spoken of in ch12, and i truly before our God don’t mean this unkindly,but i was rather confused as to one of Nelsons previous comments, that God kept all this from the saints for two thousand years, but is unsealing it now. Apart from the islamic influence, im not sure we have any more information than the early saints, but, we are living in the times when it will all come to pass,
so with the help of God provided teachers, its just natural that we compare events in our time with scripture,i’m not sure that is the same
as God previously hiding things from the saints.
I do pray Gods and enabling upon all, and thank you Joel for your time.
DanPosted at 19:47h, 16 June
I also would like to point out that John Quincy Adams wrote about Islam as the great force that would battle Christianity until the end times. I agree with Joel that the identification of those that oppose us lies with the Body of Christ, not just an individual…that being said, there are always a few individuals that cry out in the wilderness to represent the true body of Christ.
DirkPosted at 19:55h, 16 June
Some will say that Daniel 7 describes only the past, and is a picture of a prophet of YHWH looking into the future and seeing the history of the Kingdoms of Chaldea, Medo-Persia, Grecia/Ionia, and the Islamic Caliphate. Others will say it is a futuristic look at 4 kingdoms which will arise at the end of time.
Respectfully, I believe both are true, but the futuristic view is more accurate, or at least more helpful for 2014’s perspective.
I think that Daniel 8 is referring to the end of time primarily. That being said, I think the prophecy is relevant throughout time. I would liken the effect to a two handed watch. If it is 11:30AM, and I tell you that the end of the day will occur when both hand are pointing to the “12″ then a half hour later you might mistake the end of the morning (noon) for being the end of the day because both hands of the watch are pointing to 12 when noon comes, when in truth I was referring to Midnight. When the hands point to noon, something significant is indeed happening (the end of the morning, the start of the afternoon), and indeed the action of the two hands pointing to 12 will repeat again. Due to the inherent design of the watch, the signal for noon is a precise preview of what will occur at Midnight.
In the same manner, I believe the historical events of ancient Grecia and ancient Persia and Antiochus Epiphanes are previews for what will come.
In Revelation 7, we see four horsemen are loosed on the earth (a White horse who wants to conquer, a Red horse who causes conflict and division, a Black Horse who causes economic disaster, and a Pale Green Horse who has the power over 1/4 earth and the ability to kill).
In Zechariah 6:5 we see the four winds of heaven as four colored horses. Zechariah 6 seems to indicate that Economic Disaster (Black horse) will be loosed in the North (North of Israel) followed by the white horse who had been loosed earlier and is “bent on conquest” and then we will see Death/Hunger/Chaos (Pale Green/stong/grisled) take power over 1/4 of the Earth in the South.
In Daniel 7:2 we see the “four winds of heaven” stir up the sea and bring forth the beasts. Finally in Revelation 6:1-8 we see these four horses come forth after the breaking of seals on the scroll. As someone has since pointed out, if the beasts are brought forth by the horses of Revelation they are modern nations (because John is writing AFTER the rise and fall of Chaldea, Persia, and Grecia).
It is evident to me now that the eager conqueror, political division, economic strife, and chaos are in fact the four winds that stir up the Beast Empires of Daniel 7, and that history has given us the preview of this. Look at the horsemen in Revelation 6. Now notice that in Revelation 7, four angels are set to hold back the FOUR WINDS before they destroy the earth, sea, the trees and the 144,000.
THAT BEING SAID, what about today? I believe that the scripture is telling us that the following events in order must occur:
1). The Conquerer bent on Conquest is loosed (White Horse/ Antichrist).
2). Political Division/rebellion/war occurs.
3). Economic chaos (and the White Horse/eager conqueror/Antichrist “following”)
4). Death/Hunger/Chaos (Pale Green/stong/grisled) take power over 1/4 of the Earth in the South.
Unlike Davidson, I do not correlate the 4 horsemen specifically to the four beasts of Daniel, but rather think that the “horsemen” or “winds” are creating the conditions surrounding each respective Beast.
I believe the first event (Conqueror bent on Conquest is loosed) occurred when the Antichrist decided to go about the business of conquest (without going into detail, I do not believe this is the same as the Antichrist being revealed). Unlike Davidson, I do not believe the White Rider was Saddam Huessein or that the White Rider had anything to do with Mr. Huessein. I believe the first “wind” also brought us the death of the first of Daniel’s Beasts: “The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings. I watched till its wings were plucked off; and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.”
I believe this Lion was likely referring to Saddam’ Huessein’s Iraq, which was “plucked” by the Western coalition forces in 2003, and then forcibly tasked with democracy thereafter. I do not believe democracy is necessarily a good thing, and I believe the heart of a man is a deceitful thing: “The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure.” Giving a deceitful heart to a humbled animal is, I think, a more fitting description of what has happened in post-Saddam Iraq.
I believe the second event is taking place right now. I believe the Arab Spring is the fulfillment of this Red Horse prophecy of rebellion and political chaos. I believe this is when we see the “bear with three ribs” (Iran) also called by Daniel as the “Ram with two horns” (Daniel 8: “The ram which you saw, having the two horns—they are the kings of Media and Persia.”). I believe we are at the end of this “wind” and what we will see is the Ram butting westward, northward, and southward. I think it is evident that Iran is butting West with it’s policies towards Israel and Iraq. I think it is evident that the Ram is butting North with it’s policies in Syria. I think it is evident that the Ram is butting south with it’s policies toward Saudi Arabia.
I think this describes where we are now: somewhere between the #2 wind that causes political rebellion and coincides with aggression from Iran, and #3 Economic Chaos in the North and a brief but strong response from Turkey. (note the leopard of Daniel has four heads, but not four horns. I agree as others have mentioned that it is likely Turkey itself that rebukes Iran).
If this idea is correct, we will see very shortly an Iranian conflict of some measure, followed by economic disaster and a Turkish lead opposition (possibly coalition)in response to Iranian aggression.
Thereafter, we will find a divided Turkey, and see the rise and return of the Caliphate/Coalition of Ten, with the Pale Horse of death and chaos in attendance.
All of the above is said through a fog of prophecy.
gilesPosted at 20:09h, 16 June
Its always been assumed that the kingdoms represented in Daniel 2 are the same nations in Daniel 7 – the golden head is the lion, the silver chest, the leopard, etc.
Having said that, I think iron legs do correspond with the ‘terrible beast’ since
1) the detailed description of each one matches
2) in both visions, this is the nation spoken of just prior to the judgement.
But as for the other animals, its yet another assumption I have grown up with without giving it a second thought.
DirkPosted at 21:22h, 16 June
Linda and Giles:
“Its always been assumed that the kingdoms represented in Daniel 2 are the same nations in Daniel 7 – the golden head is the lion, the silver chest, the leopard, etc.”
I don’t think these are irreconcilable.
Because the past is a preview of the future, then what was said to Nebuchadnezzar was entirely true. All four kingdoms of Daniel 2 are prototypes or previews of the four that come at the end of time.
I see nothing in Daniel 2 that conflicts with the following ideas 1) A successive series of kingdoms 2). A revival of these kingdoms at the end of time. In fact, I think the language demands it. Daniel 2:38-39 is specifically applicable to Nebuchadnezzar, while Daniel 2:44 is specifically applicable to the end of time which has not happened yet. The ONLY way I can think of to reconcile those two is if there are time two periods for which the prophecy is directly applicable.
Jay RossPosted at 22:39h, 16 June
It is with a heavy heart that I must enter the fray on this blog.
The four beasts of Daniel 7 are four heavenly hosts that are aligned with Satan and each has its unique area of dominion. People can inhabit the domains of these four heaven host beasts and nations and people groups have done so since they first began exercising their respective dominions over the peoples of the earth. Over time different nations and empires have risen up within the respective domains of the four heavenly host beasts and then faded/ebbed away again but the same characteristics of the respective beasts are manifested in these nations/empires as they rise up and fall away.
Now the five kingdoms/empires associated with the Daniel 2 statue prophecy may have an association with one or more of the respective beasts but they themselves are not the beasts described in Daniel 7.
It is also important that we acknowledge that there was a 2,000 or so years period, i.e. for two ages, where the land of Babylon was desolate such that no people group lived in the land (Jer 50:39-40) and that this period of desolation and devastation occurred between the third and the fourth kingdoms/empires that occupied the land of Babylon. The kingdoms are, 1. The Chaldeans, 2. The Medes and the Persians, 3. The Greek Empire, 4. A period of two ages where the land was devastated and desolate when no kingdom or empire existed in the land, 5. Iraq and finally 6. The Coalition of the Willing.
What we are seeing happening at the moment is the preparation for the Assyrian Empire to enter the land of Babylon to finally destroy Babylon. This time is associated with what is written in Revelation 18 and Jeremiah 50-51.
Isaiah 24:21-23 speaks of the judgement of the four heavenly hosts/beasts in heaven and their internment in the Abyss for a time as well as the judgement of the rebellion of the people on the earth who are also dispatched into the abyss. We have had the starting gun fired so to speak for the unfolding of the rebellion of the people and their judgement (Isa 24:21-23) a little over ten years ago and my understanding is that another thirty years or so will pass before the rebellion on the earth will be put down and all of Israel will be redeemed when the completion of the time of the heathen gentiles trampling the sanctuary is complete.
Oh. The preparation for two parables of Jesus, on the same subject matter concerning the next age, to begin is unfolding as we speak. I wonder if the scholars have the talent to spot even just one of the two parables?
Doug HanleyPosted at 04:43h, 17 June
Isaac Newton published his Observations upon the Prophecies of Daniel and the Apocalypse of St. John in 1722, just 5 years before his death that Jews would return to their homeland. And this was the only major sign of the “End Times” It happened on May 14th 1948. Let us keep our wickes trimmed and a full supply of oil, let us be wise because the days are evil.
linda keyesPosted at 11:34h, 17 June
Excellent advice Doug!
Giles, i do appreciate your words, though to be honest i think that the kingdoms are the same is very reasonable,a good example would be
Jer4v7-13 Nebs invasion is described using the imagery of a lion and eagles,other scriptures support this, if ch2 beasts starts with Babylon and ends with ten toes, then ch7 also starts with Babylon and ends with
ten horned kingdom, i think its reasonable indeed(without mentioning Persia and Greece)
It is true that sometimes a straight reading of the text would imply no gap between kingdoms, but i suppose the same could be said of Daniels 70 weeks, they appear to follow on, yet we know that there is a time gap between the 69th and the 70th.
When all said and done only time and observation will tell, and i do heed Dougs advice,i wont comment on this again as i do value other saints views.
Blessings to all
JoelPosted at 11:42h, 17 June
I would add a comment concerning the problem that some have with the gap in between the Brass thighs and the iron legs that would be necessary if the legs represent the historical Islamic empire. Some say that the kingdoms must be chronologically contiguous, forming an unbroken flow of kingdoms. The problem is that even those who argue this have minimally a 500 year gap in between the legs and the feet. Everyone who sees the he’d of Gold as Babylon and the feet as the Kingdom of the AC has gaps in their model. So the argument is only applied to the Islamic End Time Paradigm, then it is seen to be applied inconsistently for polemical purposes.
David W. LincolnPosted at 18:04h, 17 June
I’d like the readers of this blog to evaluate this blog comment
After all, doesn’t this shape Muslim eschatology?
Jay RossPosted at 22:18h, 17 June
I agree, there are timeline gaps, but they are hard to estimate unless we have the keys to unlock the passages that clearly reveal them to us. When we understand how those time periods are hidden in plain sight within the Bible, then the gaps do become easy to discern.
The problem we have is that where a finite time period exists, “tradition” obscures it with an “infinite” time period. An example is: –
Isa 61:4: – They will rebuild the ancient ruins,
restore sites long destroyed;
they will renew the ruined cities,
destroyed many generations ago. (CJB) or: – the devastations of many generation. (KJV),
were “dowr waadowr” is interpreted as “many generation,” whereas if “dowr” is understood to have the alternate meaning of “an age” then IMHO the translation would be: – “the devastation of an age plus an age.”
History confirms this view.
Jeremiah 50:39 uses the same phrase “dowr waadowr” to describe the two age gap in the land of Babylon between the third and the fourth nation of the Dan 2 prophecy of the statue. History confirms this view also.
Rev 20 confirms that a single age is 1,000 years plus a little while making a single age 1,000 plus years. During the little while Satan will enter into a covenant with many people to lead them in the final rebellion; the great falling away.
At this present time the Sign of the Fig Tree indicates that 91 plus years will separate the budding of Israel until they are reformed into a redeemed nation in a day. Paul tells us that all of Israel will be saved when the full time interval of the gentile heathens trampling the sanctuary is complete i.e. 2,300 years. This will co-inside with the judgement of the rebellious people on the earth, in the valley when they start their push to go up against Jerusalem in our near future.
Genesis 15:16: – in the fourth age some of Israel will come back into the land before the full iniquity of the Amorite people has been reached.
We know that the Amorite people live around the Land of Canaan. In their full iniquity, the Amorite people have adopted the Islamic religion and abandoned their previous practices such that the River Euphrates linked closely with Baal worship has now dried up.
The Amorite people are not the fourth beast. They are one people group that have chosen to inhabit the dominion of the fourth Beast. Many other people groups from around the world have chosen Islam and it has spread into every nation on earth.
So Daniel 9:26b span an ~ 2,000 years period while a further gap of 1,000 years separates Daniel 9:26b from Daniel 9:27.
Now Ezekiel 47:1-12 describes a 4,000 year period from God first entering Solomon’s temple until the land can begin to be healed. This healing is in our distant future and the nations that will inhabit the dominion of the four facetted beast of Revelation 13 before that time, I believe, have not been fully revealed to us yet. We can argue, but the nations in the last days of the Millennium Age may not yet exist.
David W. LincolnPosted at 22:56h, 17 June
Since I posted the link, I sent it over to a facebook friend in Egypt.
Feel free to follow the comments.
barasheetPosted at 00:44h, 18 June
If you look at Walid Shoebat link here he points out that the ‘new’ interpretation of Daniel 7 and 8 is not new, ihttp://www.prophezine.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=971:breaking-news-prophecy-is-being-fulfilled-the-antichrist-is-arising-as-iran-moves-into-iraq&catid=41:top-headlines.
JoelPosted at 00:46h, 18 June
Of the few that held to a futurist interpretation, they usually identified them with nations such as France and Germany etc.
barasheetPosted at 03:45h, 18 June
just saying, I held to futuristic content for years due to concentricity, or repetition method of prophecy in Jewish fashion..a levitical rabbi taught me this. Just didnt have all the pieces in place since it wasnt happening before me eyes..Davidson is way off with Hussein interpretation of first horseman…..Probably same reason nobody saw the Christ until it happened. We all see dimly through a glass…Anderson picked the countries in the early twentieth century
David E. GregoryPosted at 20:15h, 18 June
Greetings from the Land of Enchantment, Joel,
I had never considered it before reading this article, but another potential parallel which struck me while reading between Daniel 8 and Revelation is in Daniel 8:12 – “And on account of transgression the host will be given over to the horn along with the regular sacrifice…” This sounds much like Revelation 12:17, with 13:7 and in conjunction with Deuteronomy 32 and Leviticus 26.
Daniel again seems to be indicating that this horn will have dominion over the holy people for a short while, in Jacob’s trouble, for the purging of iniquity. My only caveat is that the term “host” often is used for the armies of heaven and not for the people’s of the earth, especially since Daniel 8:10 mentions “host” in reference to beings in heaven. Do you have any thoughts on the matter?
JoelPosted at 20:40h, 18 June
Although the term may be commonly used of good armies, I think it is also easy to see its use for Satan’s “host” as well, as there certainly is such. I’ll look at the passages though. (Haven’t yet). 😉 Bless ya!
MattPosted at 00:29h, 19 June
In Daniel Ch8:11-12 – Does this correspond to the taking over & desecration of the temple by AC in the middle of the trib? And what do you think is the significance of the 2300 days in verse 14?
Thanks for all you are doing mate. Blessings,
Matt from Aus.
JoelPosted at 01:21h, 19 June
Yes, that would be the abomination that causes desolation. I’m yet undecided as to the meaning of the 2300 evenings and days.
MattPosted at 22:21h, 19 June
RLitzenPosted at 00:28h, 20 June
And one cannot help but notice that your theories in the Islamic Antichrist are now being proven. Yes, the Hadiths speak of an unstoppable army carrying the Black Flags from Khorassan which correlate precisely to the Biblical verses above. Very soon will this be proven.
For an illiterate prophet and one who could not possibly have read Daniel, Ezekiel or Revelations – since it would have been heresy in the Catholic Church to even read a Bible at this time(and it is doubtful he was enrolled in any Catholic school in Medina or elsewhere in in the land of the Ishmaelites) – Mohammed’s knowledge and premonitions were given him for a reason. Certainly to be written and secondly to be carried out.
Jesus Christ taught Christians who have eyes and ears to understand and know when the difference between His teachings and Satan’s. Also, He told us the signs as to when His second coming is to take place!!!
BobPosted at 16:10h, 20 June
I’m surprised there hasn’t been a greater response to Jay Ross’s interpretation. I’ve never heard that one before. Anyone checked his references?
Steve HendersonPosted at 21:01h, 20 June
I have been saying since 1989, that this vision of the Ram and Goat would be at the end of time(Daniel 8:17). Two horns-two entities- one higher than the other- the higher or(stronger nation) comes up after the first horn. I have been watching these prophecies unfold ever since the Iran/Iraq conflict(1980-88). I discovered them two be arch enemies. According to the prophecy, they would eventually get together and begin to push(bully). Since George Bush in 2001 declared the “axis of evil” trio- two of which were: Iran and Iraq, I really began to watch.
I have a full DVD presentation available on this very vision entitled: Daniel: The Unsealed Book. You may check out part of the presentation on my website and others relating to end time visions:
In addition, I have several radio programs with the “Messiah’s Branch Prophecy Hour” concerning my understanding of this vision. Just hit: Radio Programs” on my website. I believe we are staring straight into the final days. Yeshua is Coming!!!!
Be Watchful…Be Blessed
Sure Word Of Prophecy Ministries
Judith HardingPosted at 15:31h, 21 June
This brief video is powerful. Using google map, a line is drawn from Israel to exact true north. The line runs through Turkey, not Russia, once again demonstrating that the Gog-Magog scenario is a Turkish one.
Here is my question: If Turkey is due north, does this mean that Iran is south. For years, I have thought, knowing the history of the Seleucids and the Ptolemies, that the king of the south would involve Egypt and perhaps some sort of African confederation. WHY ARE PROPHECY STUDENTS (as in “Daniel Revisited”, e.g.) SPEAKING OF TURKEY AND IRAN WAR?).
JoelPosted at 18:06h, 21 June
Th Turkish-Egyptian war comes later.
TheophilusPosted at 21:52h, 21 June
The passage in Daniel 8:10-11 is in fact a very difficult one. However, while the host of heaven can be interpreted as an army of angels, it can also be a reference to the saints of God (see Daniel 12:3) and what we have here is a description of the Abomination of Desolation and Great Tribulation period, which is also described in Daniel 8:24-25.
Mark DavidsonPosted at 04:20h, 04 September
Hello, everyone. This comment is a response to Michael McCullogh’s comment dated June 16. Let me offer some thoughts.
Scripture does interpret Scripture. So as I wrote in Chapter 5 of Daniel Revisited, the keys to which nations are represented by the heads in Daniel 7 are found in Revelation chapters 12, 13 and 17. Scripture seems to be pointing to the idea that these modern nations represented in Daniel 7 are the inheritors of the historical kingdoms that tried to destroy the Jews.
I had given consideration to all sorts of combinations of nations but it is Scripture itself that guided me in my interpretation, to the set I wrote about. Saudi Arabia could have been one of the four nations that retaliates, true, but it is most likely represented by the seventh head, and in addition if it were to replace Albania there would be no modern nation representing Antiochus and the Hellenistic Realm. Another candidate would have to be found.
Following Iran in the Second Signpost, the third beast clearly shows a four-fold authority being given authority to rule. Turkey will lead, but four nations will be involved. Heads represent political authority.
And to that end regarding Iraq, where you wrote, “I don’t think that the heart of the nation has changed,” I agree with you completely. It was the mind – the way the head thinks – that was changed through democratization. The fact that the “heart” of the nation, i.e. the culture and history, has not changed is itself confirmed by the picture in Daniel 7:4 where this lion is forced to stand and its mind changed. It is a picture of a lion that is still in nature a lion – the heart of the culture has not changed – but it is being unnaturally forced to “act” more like a civilized person and its mind, the political form of the government, has been changed.
If you want another example where the way a government thinks is completely counter to the center of mass of its people in the rest of the nation look no further than the country next door – Iran. Eighty percent of Iranians cannot stand how their country is being run.
Also, if Turkey is the lion, then which beast represents Iraq? If one is to switch heads and nations then in order to have any hope of coming up with the right picture, one must consider the nations today in relation to the ancient kingdoms and the set of seven. One must find answers for all of them. I believe Daniel 7, backed up by Revelation and ancient history, is written the way it is to lead us to one picture. True, I may indeed not have the right picture, but to derive a different picture, I would encourage the serious student to think about and include all the various parameters – modern nations, ancient nations, etc.
One thing that I am thankful for is that the message of the book is causing the serious prophecy student to re-think the end-time picture. It happened to me as well when I discovered this interpretation. I can only hope and pray the message will help the church wake-up in these last days. Thanks for your comment, Michael.
Christopher ManteiPosted at 15:29h, 10 November
Mark, I read your book in the spring and totally loved it. You gave me confirmation of what I had believed for years but could never show by the Scriptures; that Daniel was yet future – because he said it was! 🙂
One possibillity I want to suggest to you is that after Turkey defeats Iran, it re-draws the map of the middle east, thereby creating the “4 horns” just as Alexander did (as a type).
May our Lord Jesus continue to give you, Joel, Steve and all of us Eyes to See to prepare the Church.
Servant of יהוהPosted at 00:18h, 29 March
Thank you, much, for your teaching on Daniel 8 (e.g., https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAteO59yAOw). The realization that it has not yet been fulfilled, unlike what has been taught by most (probably all) churches that I have attended, was the key to allow me to finally understand the yet to be fulfilled visions in Daniel, Revelation, etc.
Also, thank you and our other brothers and sisters, so much, for your missionary work in the Middle East (e.g., https://vimeo.com/120108506). I really do appreciate that, as well, and I and my family have been praying for your work, as well as for God’s presence to be with and His protection of all of our brothers and sisters, especially those who are being persecuted.
BTW, if you ever get a free moment and would be so kind as to review my book, I would greatly appreciate that, as well: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00T74IHGO/
Have a great weekend.
יהוה bless, and Shabbat shalom.
LisaPosted at 22:33h, 24 January
Could the “end of the indignation” mean when Judah’s punishment for idolatry was to be over and they could once again rebuild and sacrifice in the temple? Then a posessed Epiphanes gave them the last bit of grief before the designated time was over? Then Jesus came, and Judah/Israel missed the time of their visitation and crucified him and war broke out in Heaven and some angels were thrown down to earth? Could the time of “the end” be “the end” of their punishment for idolatry, until they crucified Jesus and were punished again from 70 AD til 1948 when they got some of Israel back, or 1967 when they got Jerusalem back? It does not make sense
Robin JonesPosted at 06:34h, 24 April
I agree, I think that Daniel 8 is unfolding and the end part concerns Iran. Have explained a slightly different version on my blog –
Jon CithisenPosted at 06:45h, 20 November
Isn’t interesting that Jerusalem fell to the Muslims in 638 a.d. and 1335 years later, Israel in 1973 a.d. took back Jerusalem?
Could it be that the Mosque on the Temple Mount will be removed 1335 years after it was set up in around 2026-2027 a.d.?
Or maybe it converted to a Christian Church.
Could it be that The Sign of The Son of Man appearing in the sky is very soon, when all the earth will mourn (repent),
to facilitate this to happen?
it could be that since Mohammed the false prophet, denying the Divinity of Christ; and when asked for a sign,
claimed earthly might; is like all the beasts of the world.
could we be seeing the end of naturalism, humanism, and progressivsm (anthropomorphic Utopia, by Deism & Atheism);
not only causing wars and rumors of wars, famines, and pestilences – but hindering oppressed people understanding
The Divine Revelation through Jesus Christ? Anthropomorphic Utopia propagators are the main reason for the
the culture of seducing spirits, culture of moral relativism, and the culture of death which has seen tens of thousands
of helpless children in the womb or just born murdered every single day in a world wide blood bath.
Maybe the world will stop choosing Barabbas – secular humanist ‘power’ as the son of the father;
and choose Jesus Christ The Son of God The Father; with The Holy Spirit leading us out of the great tribulation.
Then Jesus Christ will return on the clouds of heaven with all of His Angels with Him;
fulfill Psalm 149, arresting all those without Wedding Garments, who were not wheat but tares,
when Christ through The Holy Spirit put all enemies under His Feet.
This is, of course, devout speculation.
Peace of Christ be with you.
Come Lord Jesus,
JoelPosted at 07:41h, 20 November
I think the Muslims took Jerusalem in 637.