Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine?

First, I want to make mention of the three people who were killed last weekend in Overland Park, Kansas, a wealthier suburb of Kansas City. Although all three killed were Christians (two Methodists and one Catholic to be specific), the Neo-Nazi who killed them was seeking to randomly murder Jews at a local Jewish Community Center. He was looking to target Jews, but killed Christians.

I want to ask a simple question: Why are Jews, among all other people globally, singled out for persecution, hatred and genocide more than any other people? Throughout the Muslim world anti-Semitism is so prevalent that no examples even need to be cited. A few weeks ago, I cited a story about protests in France where anti-Semitic slogans such as, “Jews get out of France!” were chanted by hundreds of marchers. There is the growing Neo-Nazi party in Hungary and in several other European nations. And now we have the story below, where Jews are being asked to register or have their property seized and be deported from Ukraine.

Jews in the eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk where pro-Russian militants have taken over government buildings were told they have to “register” with the Ukrainians who are trying to make the city become part of Russia, according to Ukrainian and Israeli media. Jews emerging from a synagogue say they were handed leaflets that ordered the city’s Jews to provide a list of property they own and pay a registration fee “or else have their citizenship revoked, face deportation and see their assets confiscated,” reported Ynet News, Israel’s largest news website.

Read the full story at USA Today.


Ukraine Is Not Ordering Its Jews to Register

Demands That Jews Register in Eastern Ukraine Are Denounced, and Denied

But of course, once we step back in history, the long list of Jew-Hatred simply explodes. But why is this? Why are the Jewish people, among all other people so persistently, so aggressively hated by so many different people?

Today, a majority of the Christian Church holds to the belief that the Lord is done with the Jewish people corporately, that there no longer remains any special election or calling upon them as a nation. Although many Christians reject Supercessionism (Replacement Theology), there nevertheless remains a large percentage who believe that the status of “God’s people” belongs only to Christians. These are the “Restorationists” who believe that God will someday restore the Kingdom of Israel to His people, with the son of David sitting on the throne. After all, doesn’t Paul makes it abundantly clear the calling and election of the Jewish people remains today?

Someday, they will all be saved. Someday. When He returns.

Back to my point; if God is done with Israel, then why isn’t Satan done with them? In other words, if the Lord has transferred His focus only onto those individuals who have accepted Jesus, and if He no longer has any future special calling for the Jewish people corporately, then Satan obviously has not received the memo. I’m hopeful that my traditional or reformed brothers and sisters who ponder this reality will reconsider their theology concerning the people and the land of Israel. Perhaps, by the grace of God, they will even repent of and renounce this deeply-rooted belief system. For whether anyone will admit it or not, it was Christian supercessionism that provided a platform for both Muslim and Nazi supercessionism and anti-Semitism. Traditional and Reformed Christian theology concerning Israel is the enabler of some of the most vile displays of demonic hatred that mankind has ever known. Perhaps in pondering the role that Replacement Theology has played in giving theological support to anti-Semitism, my reformed and traditional brothers and sisters will see Supercessionism for what it really is: a false doctrine that not only cannot be justified by the Scriptures, but that has born tremendously bad fruit. Its time to throw it in the trash.

  • Nick
    Posted at 20:07h, 17 April


  • Roman Melnychuk
    Posted at 21:22h, 17 April

    I am a Ukrainian nationalist and from what I know.. ZIONISM, their ideology cause all this problems.. It is ZIONISM for why the JEWS are a hatred race and are kicked out of all nations.. If you get rid of ZIONISM, then zionist jews will be no more…

    JEWS AND ZIONISTS are different.. BUT ZIONISM is NAZISM.. and I reject ZIONIST RULE in my land, Ukraine.

  • Joel
    Posted at 21:54h, 17 April


    Zionism is simply the right of the Jews to live in their own land. It is in essence, an affirmation of the Abrahamic Covenant. God gave the land to the Jewish people and God keeps His promises.

    Now consider your lack of logic and historical perspective. If no one would hate the Jews apart from Zionism, then why have they been persecuted throughout history? Why the Russian pograms? Why the Holocaust? Why did Luther end his life frothing at the mouth declaring his hatred of the Jewish people? From where did the Muslim hadith of the Gharquad Tree come from, if not from the bowels of hell? There was no Israel back then to instigate such hatred, yet it has persistently possessed those who have allowed their hearts to become vessels of Satan’s wrath.

    How exactly are “Zionists” trying to rule your land?

    When you allow such foolish lies and propaganda to fill your mind and such hatred to fill your heart, you have made yourself a puppet of the devil. If your prefer to have the devil’s within you, guiding your thoughts, words and actions, then there is little I can do. However, if you wish to be free, then repentance is the only solution. Which I would highly encourage. You may wish to start at Genesis 12-15.


  • Jay Ross
    Posted at 21:55h, 17 April

    Many people cannot see that after the 490 years were over that Israel would no longer be allowed to seek forgiveness for their sins of idolatry for a fixed period of two ages. This period is first found in Exodus 20:4-6. Other passages in the OT God prophesied that the Israelites would begin rebuilding the ruined houses after the two ages of desolation in the land.

    God also prophesied that during the fourth age of their existence, from the beginning of Isaac’s life, that some of Abraham’s descendants would return to the land in their own strength. It was also foretold that “the wise among the people shall make many understand, though for some days they shall stumble by sword and flame, by captivity and plunder. When they stumble, they shall receive a little help. And many shall join themselves to them with flattery/deceit, and some of the wise shall stumble, so that they may be refined, purified, and made white, until the time of the end, for it still awaits the appointed time” [Daniel 11:33-35] of the end of the visitation of their iniquities upon them for two ages/days.

    We are also told that the heathen Gentiles will trample the sanctuary for a period of 2,300 years and that Paul in Romans 11:25b -26a {my paraphrase} said, “. . . until the time/full period of the ‘heathen’ Gentiles is complete, after which all of Israel will be saved . . . ”.

    The signpost for when Israel repents and is redeemed is found in Isaiah 24:21-23. They will repent when the following happens: –

    On that day the Lord will punish
    the host of heaven, in heaven,
    and the kings of the earth, on the earth.
    They will be gathered together
    as prisoners in a pit;
    they will be shut up in a prison,

    and after many days/(the passing of an age) they will be punished.
    Then the moon will be confounded,
    and the sun ashamed;
    for the Lord of hosts will reign
    on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
    and before his elders he will manifest his glory.

    In Jeremiah 31 we are told that when Israel repents of their idolatry that God will renew His National Priestly Covenant with them that he had previously made with them before they rebelled and began worshipping the Golden Calves.

    God still intends to use the scattered Israelite people as his priests to minister to the whole world such that they will bless all of the Nations during the Millennium Age.

    Then at the end of the Millennium Age all of the “righteous” “Saints” will receive ‘the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven; they shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey them.’ [Daniel 7:27]

    Sadly not all people agree with this scenario’s timeline as they want to leave before God’s refining fire can do its work.

  • Gabe
    Posted at 22:27h, 17 April

    Hi Roman:

    I have a question for you my friend. If Russia were to invade Ukraine and deport all ethnic Ukrainians to Finland or Siberia, and then repopulate Ukraine with ethnic Russians, does that mean that you’ve lost your right to your homeland forever? You describe yourself as a Ukrainian nationalist, so I’m going to assume that the answer is “no.” That is what Zionism is. It’s a movement by a large segment of ethnic Jews to return to their homeland of 3,500 years. As Joel mentioned, in reference to Genesis 13, 15, God gave them the land forever. Forever. Do you think God will change His mind or break His covenant? This is a line in the sand for the whole world. We will either submit to God and His purposes/plans for the world, or we will not. A gentile heart humbled to the election of Israel receives grace and healing from God Himself. Read Mathew 15:21-28.

    And if you think Zionism is bad, wait til the Jewish Messiah returns and restores what’s left of His people to the land of Israel and reigns IN ZION forever. You haven’t seen anything yet. I pray that you find the grace and mercy of Jesus before it’s too late. I will pray for you.

    Grace to you,

  • Paul Beck
    Posted at 22:36h, 17 April

    Timely post.

    There is a four-part series on Israel, Reformed Theology, Amillennialism, and Replacement Theology at – a total of 4 hours worth of learning for those who wish to dig deeper into this subject area.

    God indeed is not done with Israel, Daniel’s 70th week is upon the near horizon, and students of eschatology cannot understand the end-times without an accurate understanding of Israel, the covenants, and the coming Kingdom.


    P.S. Technically speaking, Catholics are not Christians (Joel, your first paragraph). Sure, there are those who are born again within the Catholic “church”, despite what is taught within Catholicism, but the same can be said about LDS and JW’s. Anything outside of Biblical Christianity is a cult and its teachings will lead a person to Hell if they do not have the right Jesus and the right Gospel…

  • Christopher
    Posted at 01:40h, 18 April

    I agree with your comment Paul. The first horseman on the white horse is false christ (religions). Compare with the true Christ Revelation 19:11
    They look very similar, but one is a counterfeit.
    The first seal means an increase in false religions. The ones you named are Indeed!

  • Christopher
    Posted at 03:48h, 18 April

    are you sticking with Turkey being the one to attack Israel in Ezekiel 38. I am not so sure now that I see the way Russian leaning Ukrainians are acting toward the Jewish populations in their counry.

  • Joel
    Posted at 10:20h, 18 April


    When we interpret the Bible based on what is happening in the World, this is called “Newspaper Eisegesis.” This is never the proper way to interpret the Bible. We do not form our interpretations by reading into the Bible what we read in the Newspaper, rather we draw out of the Bible (Exegesis) what it says based on proper Grammar and History. Then we look out to see if the World is conforming to what the Bible says.

    As I have pointed to so many times, if Russia is Magog, then you must also be expecting Ireland to join them, as they would be represented by Gomer (Gomer, Gimmarrai, Galatians, Cimmerians, Celts).

    I hope this has helped.


  • Mark Pfahler
    Posted at 18:07h, 18 April

    There is coming a global persecution of the Jewish people. This will force them to go to Israel; the only country that accepts Jewish people openly. You will have open persecution of Jewish people in the USA. They will be forced to leave with the clothes on their back and a suitcase. The purpose of this persecution is to concentrate as many Jewish people in a solitary location. This will assist in a “Final Solution.” Then the remainder will be hunted down by teams of hunters. The triggering device to the global persecution will be a global, economic decline the world has ever experienced. It will be blamed on Jewish bankers which will trickle down to the Jewish population. I can assure you this will happen.

  • Joel
    Posted at 20:13h, 18 April


    The question is if this happens, will we as Christians lay our lives down to help them? For this is precisely what true faith requires.

  • Peter Hartgerink
    Posted at 21:09h, 18 April

    Joel, both your post and your reply to Mark Pfahler are right on the mark. My own church, which I love and which is full of wonderful saints who love Jesus, has a huge blind spot when it comes to Israel.

    Thanks for the post.

  • Christopher
    Posted at 00:17h, 19 April

    thanks for your response. You make a valid and very good point.
    I read an article that said the leaflets were probably created to give Ukraine authorities the right to squash the pro-Russian resistance/militia. It was meant as propaganda to give a false flag attack on the Jewish population. As a result, no Jews are registering and there is no enforcement of fines and property seizure.
    Nevertheless, we should watch closely!

  • Christopher
    Posted at 00:30h, 19 April

    I agree with your post Mark. History will repeat itself. Joel I think you are right as well. When the persecution starts there will be many allies to Israel. The U.S and Europe primarily. However, after Israel wins the war in Ezekiel 38, the world will abandon Israel and the time of Jacobs trouble will come to pass just as Jesus and Revelation spoke.
    I believe the ten horns come after Ezekiel 38. I also believe that after this war the world will want peace.
    Prophecy is not meant for man to exalt himself to know the future, it is meant to exalt God who tells the future.

  • kohl
    Posted at 11:28h, 19 April

    Joel, ethnic persecution, which varies and has happened to more than just the Jews ( Armenian genocide, Rwandan genocide) is not evidence of a special corporate election but is rather a testament to sinful deprivation of human nature. I think you are exaggerating that suprezssiinism must inevitably degenerate or be the driving force behind persecution of the Jews. Its the hatred in mans heart that does this. And if anything the eugenic theories prompted up by evolutiiomary thinking is what fueled the persecution of Jews more than supersessiomism. I’m reformed and I love the Jews. I believe that their is an intended number of Jews who are go come to salvation according to Gods electing grace who will constitute the fullness of Israel just as there is a fullness of the gentiles. This require me to love the Jews and reach them with the gospel no matter where they are. It most certainly does not compell me to harm, maim, curse, attack, condemn , murder, starve, rape, pillage, dehumanize, or inflict any form of harm on another.

  • linda keyes
    Posted at 11:57h, 19 April


    Ezekiel 39/39 cant possibly be before the antichrist, These two chapters read in their full, show that after this war Israel will never again be at war(39v29-35) which would not be true if the antichrist was going to come later on. Also Joel pointed to that great verse ch 38v17 , The Lord speaks of gog as being spoken of in the past by the prophets, that He would bring him against Israel, as you know its the antichrist that is spoken of.

    Also i don’t know if its a valid point, but after these two chapters, after Israels enemy’s are slain, and all come to know that their God is God (38v23), the text moves to the millennium period.

    I was also told that this war was before antichrist, but upon reading the text for myself, it became quite plain that it just cannot be.

    bless you.

  • Joel
    Posted at 14:02h, 19 April


    Rwandans, Armenians, etc., have not been consistently persecuted throughout history by numerous various people for multiple reasons. To deny the unique, consistent, pan-historical persecution of the Jewish people, in multiple, diverse locations, throughout history, by numerous and diverse peoples, is to deny the clear facts of history.

    To solely associate the Reformed view with supercessionism, although the majority view, is to ignore the many great Reformed men who rejected supercessionism such as Spurgeon, Nathaniel West, J.C. Ryle, Horatius Bonar, etc., etc.

    I did not say that supercessionism always degrades into hatred of the Jews. Of course not. Nor am I accusing you of hatred. Not at all. Though when one begins with a theology which strips the Jews of their calling, gifts, etc. it very frequently has done so. To deny that the atmosphere in Germany was thoroughly primed by the supercessionist theology for nazism is again, to deny the undeniable historical record. The tendency of the Reformed camp to downplay this is an example of its willful ignorance concerning the bad fruit of supercessionism.

    I would highly encourage you to read Future Israel by Barry Honer, a thoroughly Reformed author. It is, I would say, one of the most essential reads of our day.


  • Troy Geddes
    Posted at 15:20h, 19 April


    Thanks for posting this. I have many friends from Ukraine. I have forwarded this to one of them.

    If I could have every “Reformed” theologian read the context of the Scriptures that Paul quotes from in Romans 8, 9, 10 and 11, I think many of them would change their view. Paul quotes the OT about 80 times.. of which about one third are from Isaiah 42 to 53. If a person studied ONLY these passages and knew them by heart before reading Romans it would clear up a lot of controversy. There is NO way that Paul is saved, reads and studies the OT for twenty years, focusing on Isaiah 42-53, and “comes up with a desire for His people to be saved to the extent that he would be cut off for them” and then take 4000 years of Jewish history and “transfers” it to those who are suppose to make the JEW’s jealous. The more I study Calvinism the more I find that it leans away from Israel being God’s elect, chosen nation. They cannot find it in Romans 9 so they are pointed in the wrong direction immediately. The answer is to study the context of Paul’s use of Isaiah 42 to 53. You must perform a virtual holocaust on the OT meaning to achieve reformed thinking. You will be be guilty of “Identity” theft if you don’t watch it. (Read Rev. 2:8-9 and 3:8-9). I don’t think that this is a reach at all.. after studying these passages and hearing what God says about those who say they are Jews and are not!

    Joel.. my question to you is this.. after reading nearly everything you have written.. and viewing your DVD’s I don’t see that you yourself subscribe to reformed thinking as I once did. Many of the people you associate with in studying the end times are “solid” reformed thinkers.. “Do you see a tension” in this “national” election and “individual” election or not? Your views, as I see it, with the Islamic Antichrist actually took me away from Calvinism.. as I didn’t see the connection until you pointed out that Israel is going to be the focal point of Satan’s attention (as you mentioned in your article) up until Jesus returns… this moved me away from an “individual” election toward a very distinct “national” election in Romans 9 and then the rest of my Calvinist belief system quickly crumbled… with it. So once again… Do you see BOTH an individual election and national election in Romans 9? If individual then how does the quote from Joel “Anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved” fit into Paul’s teaching in Romans 10? I see that with Paul teaching the context of Isaiah 42-53 not once does Jacob refer to the individual but the ENTIRE nation of Israel…why don’t people see this?

  • BJ and Alisa
    Posted at 15:57h, 19 April

    Hello Joel,

    This might answer your question. I don’t know if this young lady is a Jew or Christian herself, but here is an example of somebody standing up for the Jewish people. The article is worth reading.

  • Christopher
    Posted at 21:28h, 19 April

    Blessings Linda,
    I would have to disagree with you on Ezekiel 38-39.
    Your first point states that there will never again be a war after this war according to Ezekiel 39:29-35.
    I am not sure what Bible you use, but my bible does not contain Ezekiel 39:29-35.
    KJV ends at Ezekiel 39:29.
    Your point that there is no more war after this war is invalid. Please cite your reference.
    Your second point is that Gog in Ezekiel is in reference to the anti-Christ. You quote Ezekiel 38:17 for support.
    The anti-Christ is destroyed by Jesus at the brightness of his coming according to 2Thessalonians 2:8.
    Gog is killed in the open field. Ezekiel 39:5.

    Your last point is that after these two chapters it speaks of the millenium.
    I disagree on this point as well. My understanding is after this war the temple in Jerusalem is rebuilt Ezekiel 40.
    So in conclusion my understanding is that there will be a war; Israel wins the war; Israel has a revival and God pours out his spirit on them; the temple is rebuilt thereafter.
    Then we move into the book of Revelation.
    Time will tell. Thank you for contributing to the discussion.

  • Joel
    Posted at 21:35h, 19 April


    I associate with folks on both ends of the Calvinist / Arminian spectrum. I generally stay away from the argument, while seeking the strengths of both positions. I have a very high view of God’s sovereignty as well as high view of my own responsibility to partner with God’s grace and thus to strive for holiness, while working out my salvation with fear and trembling. That may sound like a cop-out, in that I am somewhere in the middle, but I tend to take a more pragmatic approach to my faith / orthopraxy than a philosophical approach. I do not dwell on things too great for me. I just want to stand before Him on that day and make Him smile.

    I think Calvin and the larger Reformed tradition has a great perspective on the cross. And for that, I will always praise the movement. They are champions concerning a central issue that much of the Church has fundamentally distorted, especially the charismatic movement of which I consider myself to be a part of. ON the other hand, Calvin in many ways did simply parrot Augustine concerning the millennium, and thus took a supercessionist view of Israel, and thus a largely allegorical approach to much of the OT. He didn’t reform far enough. Let the true “reformers” see the corruption of the true faith that is represented in Augustine and fully reform, if you will.

    But to get to your question, a consistent Reformed/Calvinist understanding of election would cause one to see Israel’s national election as irrevocable, not as having been revoked. Some of the best men who you will read concerning Israel are Reformed writers who rejected the majority view within their tradition. One of the absolute best books on the issue of Israel that I am aware of is Barry Horner’s book Future Israel. I so highly encourage you to get it.

    Concerning individual versus corporate, Paul speaks of both. Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Ezekiel 18 is fairly critical concerning individual salvation as well. But as the period after Pentecost clearly opened things wide open for “all,” this never did away with the corporate promise made to the descendants of Abraham. People do not see it because they do not read the OT. The Reformed hermeneutic of the New (re)interprets the Old is completely bogus and contrary to all logic and common sense. The New reveals mysteries hidden in the Old, but it never reinterprets, abrogates, changes, or does away with.


  • Joel
    Posted at 22:01h, 19 April


    First, to be fair, you avoided responding to Linda’s point concerning God saying to Gog that he is the one that all of the other former prophets spoke of. Unless one can show us where all of the pre-Ezekiel prophets spoke of Gog, then the argument really ends there.

    I hope this doesn’t sound too self-serving, but I would encourage you to read my book Mideast Beast, wherein I dismantle the idea that Gog is anything other than the AC. The verses that Linda was referring to were obviously 39:25-29. In these we see several specific things that occur as a direct result of Gog’s armies being destroyed:

    Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name; After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid. When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies’ lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

    So as a direct result of Gog’s armies being destroyed, we are told that from that day forward:

    (1) Israel’s sins have been atoned for. They have will no longer bear their shame.

    (2) God will deliver all of Israel’s captives / exiles. Not a single captive or exile will remain. All will be safely back in their land.

    (2) God will have mercy on Israel.

    (3) Israel will dwell safely in their land with none to make them afraid anymore.

    (4) The Lord will no longer hide His face from Israel.

    (5) He will pour His spirit out on Israel.

    It is also essential to see that though Ezekiel 38 begins with Israel described as having been regathered from all the nations, living safely in Israel, which they had rebuilt the ancient ruins of. That describes the state of Israel today. But after the battle, the Lord is portrayed as delivering His people from the lands of their enemies. So there is no way that we can say that Israel was fully successful in this battle. Before the battle, they were in the land, but after the battle, they are captive in the lands of their enemies. The Gog war /invasion is obviously a tremendous success, at least for a season. The failure of Israel in the GOg war is quite clear:

    And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.(Ez. 39:23,24)

    This is describing the Gog war, not anything else.

    Now, concerning the Lord pouring out His spirit on them, we know that the Lord pours out His spirit on Israel specifically when Jesus returns, as detailed in Zechariah 12. All Israel will be saved at that time. Ezekiel is not describing a mere revival. It is His permanent deliverance of Israel. “And the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God from that day onward” (Ez. 39:22) The house of Israel is a term used to describe the whole house of Israel, not just a remnant. But not just Israel. All of the nations that remain are saved as well:

    So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel. (Ez. 39:7)

    Notice that God says longer will His name be blasphemed/polluted. Yet we know that the AC will blaspheme the most High for 3.5 years. Everything about the finale of the Gog war is language that speaks of the grand finale and the return of Jesus.

    Finally, there is no contradiction with the Lord slaying the Antichrist by the breath of His mouth and the AC being slain in an open field.

    I hope this has helped.

    As always, God knows best.


  • Christopher
    Posted at 00:01h, 20 April

    Thanks for a well referenced response Joel. I will have to continue to disagree with your response. I understand that you believe this is the battle of Armageddon. I do not believe this is the final battle of Revelation. I understand your view completely and appreciate the time you spend sharing it.
    My understanding of this war in Ezekiel 38-39 is in correlation with Revelation 12:15-16.
    This is a predecessor to Armageddon. We have yet to this point in history to see the beast rising from the sea. This will be a world wide kingdom. Ezekiel refers to a king from a territory (Turkey).
    I also believe that the temple will not come prior to this war, it will come afterward.
    I understand your viewpoint completely and know and it is hard to see anything other than the final battle.
    While you do not agree there is an attempt to create a New World Order where the United Nations has total authority with a One World Government, One World Military (NATO is just the beginning, a One World Financial system, and a World Leader. You believe it is a myth and put it in with aliens, bigfoot, and numerous other conspiracy theories.
    You are very knowledgeable and I appreciate your feedback and scholarly responses. I use to completely agree with you but see things a little differently now. God Bless you.

  • Troy Geddes
    Posted at 12:59h, 20 April

    @ Chistopher

    First of all, thanks for being extremely polite about your comments.

    Second, I don’t know if you have had the opportunity to listen to Joel’s teaching on the Red DVD set or not. I think if you were to take the time to hear his arguments laid out in a systematic order you would have less of a problem with his position on this. Basically, this particular question is one worth looking into until you have exhausted all other possibilities. As of now it is “just” a debate… in the future, as it is played out in the world’s eyes… it will be a disaster of the greatest magnitude. Any teaching that is leaning towards “easy street” for Israel is just wrong. Any teaching that leads us to conclude that Islam is not going to be around to attack Christians and Jews is misguided at best and completely demonic at worst. Once again.. thanks for you kind words… I see you have the right spirit to look into this matter… I pray the Lord will continue to give you a great hunger for the things of the future.. especially the New Heavens and the New Earth! Blessings…

  • linda keyes
    Posted at 15:26h, 20 April

    Christopher and Joel

    Sorry i misquoted the verses i meant to use, i was in the internet cafe
    and did not have my bible with me, so went onto bible gateway while trying to be quick.( i obviously had a dyslexic moment)

    Thank you Joel for correctly quoting my intending verses. I was going to say that there is no conflict with the antichrist being destroyed by Jesus coming, and being slain in an open field, to be honest i think you made a perfect case and included this point. Thank you.

    Christopher, although i don’t really like disagreeing with people, like yourself i have to be true to how i see things,so we will have to
    politely disagree on this issue. While reading about the temple in Ezekiel, i see it is definitely different to Solomon’s, for instance the presence of some one called the Prince, who alone can eat his meals before the Lord ch44v1-3. The waters that flow from the house that heal the sea ch47v1-11. There are to many differences for me to mention, but there are some good articles and diagrams on the net worth looking at.

    Thank you for the fellowship, May the Lord grant us all His truth as we seek with honest hearts.(smiley face).

  • Christopher
    Posted at 22:50h, 20 April

    Thanks for the follow up comments Troy and Linda. I appreciate all guidance you have shared that helps with understanding God’s word.
    You may ask why I follow this forum even though there are some differences in understanding.
    I totally agree the Anti-Christ will be of Islamic origin.
    Islam will be the tool used as hatred against Israel.
    I see history has a design that will repeat itself. World War 1 and 2 had specific causes and more importantly designed outcomes. World War 2 had a purposed outcome to create the Nation of Israel. You can see how God used evil to create good. Romans 8:28.
    Satan has a design to create a world government. It is my understanding that this world government is the beast with seven heads and ten horns. Revelation 13:1.
    The tens horns being all Islamic countries. Psalm 83:6-8
    I do not see these ten horns reconciling with the countries listed in Ezekiel 38.
    I see Ezekiel 38-39 lining up with Revelation 12:15-17.
    After this war in Ezekiel, the temple is rebuilt according to Ezekiel 40.
    Revelation shows a great flood by the Dragon that is swallowed up. This goes with Ezekiel 38:16.
    Also Israel accepts Jesus in Revelation 12:17.
    The woman of Revelation 12 is Israel!
    While we may not agree I will openly listen and continue to read your suggestions. Proverbs 4:7.
    God Bless you and keep you.

  • Troy Geddes
    Posted at 00:18h, 21 April

    @ Christopher

    Thanks for explaining how you see the future unfolding. You surprised me a bit actually because you line up much closer with the way I see it than I originally thought. I see the book of Revelation as being somewhat overlapping with four distinct “pictures” of how it all ends. My “hard” resets are Revelation 6:17; 11:15, 14:19 and Rev. 19:11-21. I see it unfolding towards these conclusions and also in a chronological order as the transition to the New Heaven and New Earth occurs. I call them going backwards WWJD…. the Wedding (Rev 17-19), the Winepress (Rev 12-14, the Jericho Model (Rev 8-11)and the Day of the Lord’s Wrath (Rev 2-6). This works for me but I don’t expect people to agree with until I have time to explain it! Well, God bless you hope you had a great Resurrection day..He is Risen!

    P.S. Having said all that…I think comparing Revelation 19:11-21 and EZ. 39:17-20 is sufficient evidence to make them parallel passages which makes me agree with Joel’s position on this. To me it is like comparing Matthew 24:29-31 with 1 Thes. 4:13-18 which have the same exact meaning. Many theologians cannot see this because it messes with their presuppositions.

  • Christopher
    Posted at 04:34h, 21 April

    Thanks for your well referenced response Troy. There is an old saying that goes, “You never learn anything from anyone who agrees with you”. That being said I can appreciate our differences and see our areas of agreement.
    Reminds me of the discussion Job had with his friends. Each had something to say but had a different perspective on the situation at hand.

  • Gabe
    Posted at 05:44h, 21 April


    So to summarize what we’re witnessing so far:

    UPHEAVAL in European politics/economics/culture has led to
    EMBOLDENING of antisemitic forces (neo-Nazis/Islamists) has led to
    THREATS & VIOLENCE against Jewish people has led to possible start of
    ALIYAH of Jewish people to Israel

    Acceleration of Aliyah would, of course, be prophetically significant when we consider the ominous words found in Ezekiel 22:17-22.

    Grace to you,

  • Carmine R. Fragione
    Posted at 20:57h, 28 April

    Jesus Christ is a Zionist, He is the King of Zion, who like Moses said in Exodus 32 offered His life on behalf of the Salvation of the Jews , who were in deed guilty of the Golden Calf to worship Pharaoh ,and thus betrayed God and even dissed their own leader Moses, for they did not make anything for Moses of gold ? So Moses loved the Jews and would rather not exist and be cut off from the living than see God carry out the threat God said in Exodus 32 to destroy all the Jews and replace them with another nation, even making Moses their leader. Moses basically told God “Over my dead body will you reject these Jews , you can just write me off as well, I would not want to live” So God loved Moses, and for the sake of the Anointed One, in the midst of all the Jews, God spared the Jews, and did not cut them off forever. But God punished them, nevertheless. Now came Jesus Christ in the same role of Moses, but greater, and the most Jesus could do as Messiah to give Salvation to the Jewish People, that they not be cut off forever, was to die for the People. So Jesus died that the Jews , while being punished for their rebellious attitudes towards their God Yahweh, yet by the Favor and Presence God gave with Moses then upon the Messiah , God was withstood the Wrath of God , meant to destroy all the Jews and take away the Gift of the Promises given to Abraham ,Isaac and Jacob, and either grant that to another people or just destroy the Earth into annihilation. So Jesus Christ is the Holy One, who went beyond the mere threat Moses made to withstand God by actually going through with it and dying the worst imaginable death, and doing so to withstand the Judgment of Yahweh God to destroy everything, So with the Salvation Jesus merited by Favor and Presence with God , being the Son of God, greater than even Moses, the Jews were yet punished by God for a long time in exile, but not or never to be cut off forever , and so after repentance and the decreed times went by , God asks for the Jews to repent of their sins and the sins of their fathers, by which they practiced treachery and hostility towards Yahweh God, and that included how they failed to esteem Jesus, the greatest Zionist Leader of them all. Jesus died , which had the power of the Torah to fulfill what Moses said that was the LAST RESORT the final gesture possible by the Messiah if all else failed and the Jews were rioting and worshiping devils and making idols for Pharaoh , even killing each other to see who could be the worst of the worst, then the Messiah could have only one Favor out of the whole Torah , as did Moses, “If not , then cut my name out of the Book of Life” So God was withstood by the likes of Moses and then God fulfilled that in Jesus, as the only possible outcome, the Jews broke all the laws, they were filled with hatred, rage and burning with anger, all they could see was bloodshed in their zealotry. So Messiah died, and that had the effect with God to remember the Torah , Moses said it and Jesus then did the deed. DIE so that GOD GRIEVED over the death of the innocent and granting the INNOCENT ONE the favor, what did Jesus ask for ??? Jesus first asked the Father for the Jewish People, they who hated him and despised his message, yet the Love of Jesus for the Jewish People, compelled the Creator of the Heavens and Earth to comply, Messiah forced God to accept the unworthy Jews as forever the Covenant People, without any possibility of rejecting them all or choosing any other people so as to start the program over again . So, Jesus is the Zionist King , greater than Moses and greater than David, whose Wisdom exceeded Solomon, for Solomon did not succor God for Favor to die for the People, so Solomon died for himself only, but the MESSIAH a Priestly King, could do what Jacob had done, to actually wrestle all night until morning with the angel of the Lord and prevail over God Himself. So Jesus prevailed over the Judgment Day, and because of His Death , like it was some sort of a loophole in Moses Law, when all the laws are broken there is only one thing tangibly left , the primal sense of Divine Love, Unconditional Love that whether your child is good or bad, you cry for him or her, because of the divine proportions of the relationship being unconditional and eternal .
    So , Jesus did not bring the Jews peace, in this world, no, but Jesus made it sealed by the Torah , that God would never ever cut off the Jews, and God would not start over with any other people, but no matter how long and how bad the conditions, God was the Bond Servant of the Pledge the Covenant was then by the Blood of Jesus sealed as a Truth forever, and the Power of the Sealant is LOVE. God’s love for Moses , like God’s love for Abraham , like God’s love for Noah and thus God’s Love Child Jesus, the One God loved the most, broke God’s Heart to see Him die, but He died willingly with the request from the Father, ” All these you have given me”

  • Gabe
    Posted at 05:47h, 21 May

    Saw this coming.

    Chechen fighters have been waging jihad with al Qaeda in Syria for almost 3 years. But Russia has been their main target for a long time, and now Russian actions in Ukraine are inspiring Chechen jihadfis to align with the Muslim Tarters in Crimea against their mutual foe. If Russia escalates their crackdown on the Tartars in Crimea like they did on the Chechens in Chechnya 10 years ago, it will behoove Turkey to get involved in order to defend their fellow Turkic Muslims. Russia and Turkey have a history of wars and brinksmanship over their mutual sphere of influence, and with both countries being led currently by hegemonic meglomaniacs, it would seem that a showdown is only a matter of time, and possibly a short time.

    In Him

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