44 Comments
  • Steve
    Posted at 23:43h, 22 February

    Thanks for the heads up Joel!
    After reading his post about the book I would add just the example of a seven sealed scroll. All you have to do is write on a piece of paper front and back, roll it up, then take your sealing wax and seal it in seven places. Now try and open the scroll without messing it up. Plus it just don’t make any sense. You got to break the seals first.. And also, you don’t find parousia in Rev 19, you don’t even find the word just coming or going; which is weird. It seems maybe God did that on purpose as a clue. But you do find a similar word that means presence at the sixth seal, and you see the people running for cover at the sixth seal.(I think they will see God on the throne as Ezek 1 did, because they are both present, God brings the souls,1Thess 4:14- God will be “in their face”, so to speak-plus they will be able to see into heaven because it will be rent- tore open) But at Rev 19 they are ready to fight. Got to be seperate events. Looking forward to the book too! Peace in the Lord! 🙂

  • Seth
    Posted at 00:25h, 23 February

    If the rapture happens in Rev 7:9? Are we in Heaven? That doesn’t match Matthew 24:29-31. It says immediately after the tribulation and it gives the celestial signs. Then the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Verse 31 is when he gathers his elect.

  • Alfred
    Posted at 01:47h, 23 February

    I am not post-trib, but I am pre-trib. How in the world do you interpret the appearing of the Lord Jesus with his saints in Chapter 19 and put them in the 6th seal and Chapter 7? When the text is plain, leave it alone. The martye saints in Chapter 7 have come out of the Great Tribulation. I want you to show me where the church is mention between chapters 4 and 19. If the Church can appear many time in chptrs 1-3, if it has to through wrath and trib, it should be mention in chptrs 4-19 and Paul would have prepare believers for it. But he sais it was our blessed hope the escape all these things.

  • Joel
    Posted at 03:37h, 23 February

    Alfred,

    Have you ever read any books which support another view other than pre-trib?

    But he sais it was our blessed hope the escape all these things.

    I assume you are making reference here to Titus 2:13? It is quoted below:

    I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of fnour great God and Savior, Christ Jesus

    So according to the text, our “blessed hope” is not the rapture, but the “appearing” (epiphaneia) of Jesus in glory. Consider another passages where the “appearing” of Jesus is also found:

    Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming (2Th 2:8)

    So when Jesus appears, the Antichrist will be slain. Do you believe this?

    One thing I would encourage is that in disagreement, please be gracious and charitable. If we disagree on the timing of the rapture, so be it. The Lord will settle this when he comes. We are all conservative, Bible believing brothers and sisters.

    Many Blessings,
    Joel

  • giles
    Posted at 08:58h, 23 February

    Alfred

    I don’t think the saints mentioned in rev 19 are people, but angels. In nahum they are referred to as ‘mighty men’, in Jude it talks about the Lord coming with thousands of his saints, in Joel theres a more detailed description of the Lords army, how the world has never seen anything like them. Jesus description of that day mention sending angels out.

    I used to think the rapture was before, until someone pointed out Jesus’s comparison to the flood, how the flood came and took them all away….you don’t want to be taken.
    Also in Luke, (trying to do this from memory), it says how two men shall be in the same bed. One shall be taken, one shall be left.

    I really don’t think it’s a good thing to be taken, and don’t think the saints are humans, but angels.

  • Steve
    Posted at 11:28h, 23 February

    Alfred,
    As a former pre-trib believer who held loosely to post-trib until I read Marvin Rosenthal’s book “The PreWrath Rapture of the Church in the early 90’s(who was himself a former pre-trib man);the thing I did that got me seeing when Jesus would come back was this: I prayed that the Lord would open my understanding,that I only wanted the truth about all this. Then I got out the Strong’s Concordance and studied out the most important word on when Jesus would come back: Coming-parousia. It means presence, arrival, advent. It is in all the resurrection/rapture passages. I saw right then that according to Jesus’ own words, He would not come back until post-trib. That led to other studies on what was the day of the Lord? When does the Bible say it starts, when does it end? When does the wrath of God start? And so on. It takes a lot of time, but the Lord opened my understanding, and shattered my bias based belief system. And we all got this if we have been in the church for very long. We hear, we say that sounds good, then it becomes a “brick” in a wall we build, because we did not question and study out things for ourselves. I can say without a doubt the pre-wrath is as close as we are going to get to the truth on this subject. Is it perfect? No. Heck, I go to a pre-trib church because there is no where else to go in my town. But I will stick to what Jesus said about His second coming. I am following Him, not the church. 🙂

  • Perry Brown
    Posted at 16:00h, 23 February

    I do not know why Alan thinks postribulationists believe in a concurrent-recapitulation framework of the seals, trumpets and bowls. As I understand, a post-tribulation rapture framework is a very much consecutive-progressive one. I know that there are some people out there that believe and teach a concurrent-recapitulation framework, but I would assume very insignificant number. Most pre, mid and post tribulation views adhere to a consecutive-progressive framework. On the other hand, maybe I have not read enough Revelation commentaries. I always viewed that the consecutive-progressive was the normal and the concurrent-progressive was the exception. The way Alan writes assumes that a concurrent-recapitulation method is the norm.

    Blessings,

    Perry Brown

  • Joel
    Posted at 19:59h, 23 February

    Alfred,

    I asked you two questions, which you did not respond to before issuing a flurry of your own questions. Posting here requires common courtesy as a minimum.

    I will respond to a false statement that you made. You said that “apostasy” in the New Testament means departure and not falling way, and is used seven times this way. First, Apostasia (strongs G646) is used only twice (not seven times) in the NT, (Acts 21:21 Thess 2:3) and both times means to fall away from in a religious way, never departure.

    Thayer’s Greek Lexicon lists the meaning of apostasy as:

    “a falling away, defection, apostasy”

    Vine’s Expositionary Dictionary lists it as follows:

    “an apostasy, defection, revolt,” always in NT of religious defection”

    International Standard Bible Encyclopedia lists it as:

    “used twice in the New Testament, in the Greek original, to express abandonment of the faith”

    Easton’s Bible Dictionary lists it as:

    “to draw back or apostatize in matters of religion”

    Making false statements is not any way to argue your case.

  • Steve
    Posted at 00:11h, 24 February

    giles,
    I think you are partly right about the angels. The words are a little differnt, but yes angels do have bright linen on in 15:6. The same word is used for the Bride in 19:8. lampros-bright, shining, In comparison, the word used for the armies and everywhere else white is used is leukos-white , bright, gleaming. In verses like 6:11, 3:5, 7:9,13. So this is the saints for sure, but we know angels are everywhere doing the “hands on” work in just about every second coming passage.They do the fighting. They “carry” our souls to heaven when we die too. Luk 16. Let you guys in on a little secret. I think the horses are symbolic for cherubs. Cool rides! Just read Ps 18:9-10. Notice the sigular usage in a judgment context. They look like horses, notice horses & horsemen in 2Kings 2:11-12.(But they look like men too) Now look at Ezk 1. Four of them carry God’s throne. They are like fire. So the word lampros takes on new meaning. IMO…And about one taken another left in Luke 17 & Mat 24. You want to be taken dude! If you read what Jesus said, about the example of Lot and Noah. Those left, are left for judgment. Remember what I said about bias? The sphere of judgment was Sodom. The sphere of judgment was the earth. Both Lot and Noah were rescued on the very same day judgment came, from the sphere of judgment. Yes, the flood took them away- Different word and don’t line up with the story line. You see? The word for taken is paralambano-to take with, to receive(to oneself). Jesus used the same Greek word in a famous rapture verse we all know. Jhn 14:3. This has the meaning in the verse. “Receive you to Myself”. Jesus saw this argument coming a long time a go, and used it to prove He was talking of the rapture in Mat 24! 🙂

  • David Roberts
    Posted at 09:46h, 24 February

    @Joel,

    What half of the seven years do you believe Elijah + his companion will minister? First half, dying in the middle and being raised up three and a half days (years) later at the second coming when the resurrection happens? Or the second half, being resurrected a literal three and a half days later?

    David R.

  • Greg
    Posted at 13:31h, 24 February

    I’m looking forward to reading Alan’s book. However, my current understanding of Revelation 7 is that it portrays a great harvest that takes place during the tribulation, not the resurrection of all the saints.

  • linda keyes
    Posted at 15:04h, 24 February

    hi every one, i don’t have a computer so i popped into the library just to say that i have been blessed to come across this site.
    For the last 30 yrs i always believed in the pre trib although i did not understand it as it was far to complicated, anyway last summer i decided to get my teeth into it, i was in shock, with the help of my concordance only i found that the pre trib simply does not exist, i have shared with all my friends, and they are just as shocked as me,it goes to show that although we respect our leadership, we really do need to check for our selves what Gods word says. I have found it quite sad though at the lack of grace that many of each opinion show towards each other. Any way trying to be quick, regarding the above article, i dont really see how the vials fall after the trumpets, as the sixth vial is poured Jesus Gives warning of his coming, which does not make sense if he has already come for us, any thoughts ?

  • Dave
    Posted at 15:24h, 24 February

    “Pretrib rapture” is not to popular doctrine in south Sudan Iran North Korea or any other place where there is daily persecution. you only find it in places where folk live comfortable christian lives. I suspect as we drawer nearer to the worldwide persecutions pretrib rapture will be jettisoned as it has in these places
    You see what persecution does is it burns off the rubbish and divides those who want “There Best life now” Rather than “For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel’s will save it.”

  • Jeanne
    Posted at 19:37h, 24 February

    Excellent comments, Dave. Thank you. As someone said about the pre-tribulation view, it “sells well on this side of the ocean.” We in the West have lived comfortably with many blessings for so long, and we take this for granted. I have been troubled by the pre-tribulation view, especially given the horrific persecution of Christians in the past and present, particularly in the Muslim world today. I see this view as a grave insult to our brothers and sisters who are literally being slaughtered like animals. Yes, tell them that we’re not going to suffer!

    I have been going through the book of Daniel via the.mysteryofisrael.org website. I have just been blown away by what I am learning. Jesus, in his Olivet discourse in Matthew 24, told us that we should read and understand the book of Daniel! He also repeatedly warned us to not be deceived. And if the pre-trib view is wrong, then it is a deception. Furthermore, if it is wrong, many, many Christians are going to be confused and disillusioned.

    Let us pray that we will not be deceived, and that we would be faithful to our Lord in the days ahead.

  • David W. Lincoln
    Posted at 20:01h, 24 February

    These are visions, instead of events that fit on a timeline.

    That way we can avoid reading in our biases.

  • Nelson
    Posted at 22:11h, 24 February

    First this is another awesome article and matches my thinking of the sequential nature of the seals, trumpets and bowls; and the pre-wrath rapture.

    The large amount of disagreement in interpretation of scripture is the seal(s) on the book of Daniel (Dan 12:4) which allows us to read but not completely comprehend what is happening. It is a supernatural seal. The Lord will allow us to fully understand when it is His time.

    This is a question for Allen, do you have a sense of timing for the pre-wrath rapture? 1260 days into the Great Tribulation? Do you see it as occuring on Rosh Hashanah? And do you see Jesus remaining on the Earth after the rapture as obviously He is returning once more not twice.

  • Steve
    Posted at 00:56h, 25 February

    Linda,
    Let me say I do believe Jesus has already came back “immediately” after the (great) tribulation of those days. Notice the threefold witness of the sun moon & stars. Where else does this take place? Rev 6:12-17. This is a long way from the sixth bowl. Notice also just after the 6th seal we find the multitude that came out of the (great) tribulation. Remember: Jesus teaches He comes and then judgment falls, on the very same day. luk 17:22-37, Mat 24:36-41-The example of Noah & Lot. (see above comments also). But having said all this, I do not know how to interpret this for sure?? What I have found, if the majority of verses teach one thing, but one or two seems out of place, we have to try and explain it the best we can until God opens our understanding more. So my thought is this is a warning & encouragement for the benefit of those who will come to faith (after) Jesus comes at the 6th seal.(Zech 14) Who would they be? The sheep of Mat 25:31-46. I believe the coming (to come and go-not parousia) is in view in Mat 25:31, and this is the Lord taking possession of the kingdom. This would be close to that warning He gives in Rev 16. I don’t know if you read Alan Kurschner’s book, Antichrist before the day of the Lord. But I encourage you to give it a go and you will learn all about the Prewrath viewpoint! 🙂

  • giles
    Posted at 07:40h, 25 February

    Steve,

    Two men shall be in the same bed? One shall be taken, one shall be left.

    Is there an explanation for that?
    Giles

  • linda keyes
    Posted at 13:01h, 25 February

    Steve,
    Thanks for your comments, truly appreciated,to be really honest at this moment in time, I’ve put away the books, i have been spending much time with concordance and lots of paper, i’ve been so blest, what i know for sure is john6 resurrection is on the last day equals math24v31, before which the heavens will be rent and jesus will be seen on the throne causing the tribes to mourn, as you say the elect will be gathered the same day as the fire falls.

    I do see that the seven trumpets are revealed when the seventh seal is opened, the 6th seal leaves us with an open heaven,men running for the rocks….but i also see that the seventh trumpet signals no more time rev10v7 also that when this angel sounds it be be time for rewards for the saints and time to punish the wicked, also an open heaven. i note that the seventh angels sounds for a period of time 10v7, maybe the vials are poured out during the days of the seventh angel?? i also cant escape that the seventh vial also ends with armagedon. …..so like you
    dont have the answers and cant subscribe to any particular view as i genuinely am a bit boggled. But truth will come as we dig.

    Its so good to see people actually taking time to be in Gods word, His
    richest blessings to you all.

  • Steve
    Posted at 13:44h, 25 February

    Giles,that is an easy one. “men” is not in the Greek. The KJV translators put it in for clarity, but it works the other way around in our times. Luke 17:34. My NASB says, “there will be two in one bed”. The NKJV has “people” in the margin. The KJV translators were not thinking “homosexual” when they translated it. They just talked really strange back then, for sure! That is why I like to use a Strong’s when I do a subject or word study. Also, comparing translations is always good. Hope that helps! 🙂

  • Steve
    Posted at 14:38h, 25 February

    Keep up the good work Linda!(you go girl!) I did the same thing many years ago. I am still learning, it is a never ending process and blessing. God is so COOL! Peace in the Lord! 🙂

  • Alfred
    Posted at 15:21h, 25 February

    Joel have tried to respond to your rely, but the password is not working. Maybe it work this time.

  • Alfred
    Posted at 15:37h, 25 February

    Joel here are the verses I was referring to: Source KJV and Strong’s
    Luke 2:37
    Luke 4:13
    Luke 14:27
    Acts 7:37
    Acts 7:38
    Acts 12:10
    Acts 16:38
    Acts 19:9
    Acts 23:29

    And 2 Thess 2:3 falling away

    All the above except 2 Thess 2:3 is depart. That is the point I was trying to make. I DID NOT MAKE A FALSE STATEMENT. I believe we can disagree without judging someone’s character or intent. Now what I believe we disagree on is interpretation, is it a falling away from the faith or departure of believers/Church/Body of Christ/His Bride.

    Many Blessings to your future endeavors

  • Joel
    Posted at 20:32h, 25 February

    Hi Alfred,

    First, I am still waiting for you to kindly answer the questions I initially asked you.

    Second, the word in the verses you cited is apehestēmi. It is different than the word for “apostasy” or “falling away” as used in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Please do not misunderstand my comments as inferring an accusation against your character, but yes, in fact you certainly did make a false statement:

    Apostasia is used about 7 times elsewhere and it is always to depart or departure, not falling away that is used in 2 Thess.

    As I said, the word in the verses that you’ve cited is apehestēmi not apostasia. Two different words.

    Blessings

  • Alan Kurschner
    Posted at 01:54h, 26 February

    Hi Alfred,

    Just a few brief comments.

    1. The term _apostasia_ found in 2 Thess 2:3 never carries the sense of “physical departure” in Hellenistic Greek literature, let alone the Greek New Testament. It always carries the notion of religious or political departure. This is why you will never find a Koine (Hellenistic) Greek lexicon listing “physical departure” as a meaning for _apostasia_ within its semantic domain.

    2. Its verb form can mean a physical departure, not its noun form. You are committing the lexical fallacy called the cognate fallacy. That is, you are reading a verb form’s meaning back into its noun form (and it can be done vice versa). You have to establish that the noun form has this meaning.

    3. I lectured on this very issue a few years back at a prophecy conference. I highly encourage you to read my notes from it here:

    http://prewrathrapture.com/does_2_thessalonians_23_mention_the_rapt/

    4. I will have an entire chapter on this issue in a forthcoming book responding to pretribulationism, planned for the end of this summer.

    I hope this helps, and please take a look at my notes from my lecture.

    Sincerely,

    Alan

  • Richard
    Posted at 09:56h, 26 February

    Interesting article! It makes sense that the article places the first resurrection right before the trumpet and bowl judgments, especially since in Matthew 24, Jesus places it after the celestial signs.

    I remember reading that Christians are not appointed to wrath but will face tribulations. It seems from an unbiased reading of scripture that believers will face tribulation at the hands of the beast kingdom and their false prophet. I have heard many pastors teach that the church will be ruptured before the seals of revelation are opened. They say this because the church isn’t mentioned after chapter 3, but everything after chapter 3 concerns Israel and not the church specifically. It does talk a lot about the saints which I thought we in the church are.

    It also makes sense that the 144,000 are sealed right before the trumpet and bowl judgments, which are the wrath of God. Just as Noah was sealed in the arc to go through the wrath of God the first time God judged the earth, the believers that remain before his wrath, in the same way, will be sealed by God to go through his wrath without being touched by it.

  • Linda Keyes
    Posted at 11:41h, 26 February

    Hi Alfred

    If its ok While this post is still open, i just wondered if you have ever read psalm 50

    Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence:
    a fire shall devour before him,
    and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
    He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth,
    that he may judge his people.
    Gather my saints together unto me;
    those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice

    This really amazed me! as it says the Lord calls his saints at a time of fire and turbulence, clearly the day of the Lord after the tribulation, the thing that greatly helped me was how the Day of the Lord was so significant with regards to Jesus coming, in 2pet ch3 Peter clearly says that the day that the saints are waiting for is the day of the Lord when the heavens will be dissolved, it blew me away, as my whole understanding or lack of, was clearly undone, it was scary at fist, as i did not want to be deceived, but now the whole thing makes my insides jump and i am great-full to God for opening my understanding.

    I wish you well Alfred, many blessings to you.

  • Alfred
    Posted at 13:14h, 26 February

    Thanks, Alan for the explanation I am looking forward to reading your book. Pre-wrath, post-trib or Pre-trib , if you are a true born again Christian, chosen by God before the foundation of the world, redeemed by the blood of Jesus and regenerated by the Holy Spirit, God will give you the strength and power to endure until his coming.

    11 Cor 13:14

  • Hector
    Posted at 13:52h, 26 February

    God bless all, maybe someone could help me understand a little better. I, as many, was raised under the pre-trib theory. However, since getting touched by the Holy Spirit, I’ve been studying the word, and been finding amazing revelations. Although now I am definitely convinced the pre-wrath theory best explains what the scriptures say about the rapture of the church, there’s a few loose ends that I can’t fully understand. I recently listened to a bible study about the “elect” and how that word, even when is mentioned in the NT, for the most part ((99% of the time), refers to Israel and not the gentiles’ church. That creates a conflict in Mathew 24:31 “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his “elect” from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” Specially when a parallel (or confirmation) passage in Isiah 11:12 confirms this: “And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” Also, the main purpose of the study was to demonstrate that “elect” has nothing to do with salvation, but rather chosen for a particular purpose that has nothing to do with eternal life. If this is refering only to Israel, how can we justify the church has been raptured yet. Please help!

  • Dave
    Posted at 17:14h, 26 February

    Hi Hector
    may I suggest that being filled with The holy spirit is “the help” and as you have already have him within the temple of your person he will make things clear to you as he has already promised. What most likely we all need is time spent with him as it is a intimacy that we are all pursuing with God and not knowledge apart from knowing him. Yes these are the things of God and yes they are his word but as both Daniel and John of Revelation were both “The beloved” it seems that relationship before revelation is the pattern.
    The term elect is properly used of both the saved of the Gentiles and the saved of the Jews and out of both God is making one new Man.

  • Stuart
    Posted at 10:41h, 03 March

    Mr. Kurschner’s analysis of Rev 15 leads him to conclude that the trumpet judgments differ from the bowl judgments and must precede them. A closer examination however may indicate that they are the same events. In Rev 15:1 the angels are depicted as having the 7 plagues. They come OUTSIDE of the temple while still holding the plagues in vs 6. THEN, they are given the 7 bowls by one of the living creatures while still outside the temple in vs 7. Vs 8 then states that no one could go back into the temple until the 7 plagues were completed. Therefore the angels cannot be said to be holding the bowls in the temple because they first received them when they exited outside the temple. Moreover, they cannot venture back into the temple with the bowls until the plagues are finished. The big question that begs to be answered then is: What are the 7 plagues that the angels are holding onto in vs 1? It cannot refer to the bowls because they receive the bowls only upon going outside of the temple and they are not allowed to reenter until the plagues are completed. The answer that makes the most sense given this sequence of events is that the 7 plagues in vs 1 are the 7 trumpets.

  • Monique
    Posted at 20:16h, 03 March

    I mailed this to the author of this book, but I wanted to post it here, too, in case someone finds it interesting.

    I noticed that you are making a case for the three signs to be the same. My old bible teacher said the same, except… He said that there are four. The third in fact is a little harder to spot than the others, but in Revelations, after the trumpets and before the bowls, seven times are mentioned: and there was a shout/someone spoke up (sorry, I only know the Dutch translation which is somewhere between speaking and shouting). I can give you the exact scriptures if you like. My teacher always taught me that those four sequences are the same, but from a different perspective.

    1. The seals, that’s a royal sign, and corresponds to Matthew, which has as theme “the kingdom of heaven”. It focusses heavily on the earthly things, from the beginning of the 7 years of the end times (just like Matthew starts at the beginning with the register).

    2. Mark is written from a priestly view, aka: Christ as the high Priest. The trumpets are typically used by priests. Mark starts in the middle, just as the trumpets start after the 3.5 years. This part focuses on the subjects of the High Priest.

    3. The voices are very human, and therefore they correspond to Luke, who focuses on Jesus as perfect human. This book also starts at the beginning, and so this part is also started at the beginning, even before the tribulation is being covered.

    4. The bowls are being poured upon the earth, so the focus is from heaven. John’s main theme is that of Jesus as God. John starts in the middle, so the bowls are from the last 3,5 years.

    He also said it fits perfectly on the four parts of Daniel, but I’m afraid I missed that part (sadly my teacher passed away last year).

    Anyway, this is very briefly, I just wanted to let you know this in case you didn’t. This theory is very, very uncommon. I never encountered it before, but when I first heard it, I was amazed at how it fits! Especially because earlier at a theology school, I already learned the themes of the 4 first books of the new testament (king-priest-human-God) and it fits perfectly with the symbolics of Revelation!

  • Stuart
    Posted at 18:21h, 05 March

    The pre-wrath view hinges on the rapture occurring between the 6th and 7th seal. The key verse is Rev 7:14-“I answered, “Sir, you know.”
    And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation….”
    This verse is better translated: “These are the ones continually coming out of the great tribulation” as erchomenoi is a present participle. Hence the description here cannot be the rapture since the rapture is a corporate, collective event that occurs instantaneously at once. Rev 7:14 by contrast is a sequential description of individual martyrs ongoing and repeatedly arriving in heaven out of the great tribulation. Given this description, the view of this being the rapture event appears unwarranted.

  • Alan Kurschner
    Posted at 21:08h, 05 March

    Stuart,

    You are completely wrong, with all due respect.

    You are reading English grammar back into Greek categories. It is unfortunate that this 19th century defunct understanding of the Greek verb system is still perpetuated.

    I cringe when someone says that the Greek present tense means “continual action.” It does not. You are confusing the categories of aspect (which the tense-form construes) with the categories of Aktionsart (i.e. kind of action) and temporal reference. The latter two categories are not determined by tense-form but instead context and lexeme.

    I refer you to the recommended sources that deal with the Greek Verb system, which includes the verbal fallacy you are committing:

    Carson, D. A., Exegetical Fallacies. 2nd. ed. Grand Rapids: Baker, 1996.

    Campbell, Constantine. Verbal Aspect, the Indicative Mood, and Narrative: Soundings in the Greek of the New Testament. SBG 13, New York: Peter Lang Publishing, 2007.

    Decker, Rodney. Temporal Deixis of the Greek Verb in the Gospel of Mark with Reference to Verbal Aspect. SBG 10, New York: Peter Lang, 2001.

    K. L. McKay, A New Syntax of the Verb in the New Testament Greek. New York: Peter Lang, 1994.

    Mathewson, David. “Verbal Aspect in the Apocalypse of John: An Analysis of Revelation 5,” NovT 50 (2008) 58-77.

    Porter, Stanley and Carson, D. A., eds. Biblical Greek Language and Linguistics: Open Questions in Current Research. Sheffield: JSOT Press, 1993.

    Porter, Stanley. Verbal Aspect in the Greek of the New Testament, with Reference to Tense and Mood. SBG 1, New York: Peter Lang, 1993.

    Porter, Stanley E . Idioms of the Greek New Testament. 2nd ed. Biblical Languages: Greek 2. London: Sheffield. Academic. 1994.

    Thanks,

    Alan

  • Stuart
    Posted at 00:10h, 06 March

    Thanks for your response Alan; I will study this matter further. Also would you care to share your thoughts regarding my earlier post regarding the trumpet/bowl judgments?

  • Alan Kurschner
    Posted at 01:39h, 06 March

    Stuart,

    Thanks for your consideration on studying the Greek verb system further. I will try to find some time to give you a thoughtful reply to your question above on your earlier post.

    Thanks,
    Alan

  • Alan Kurschner
    Posted at 01:43h, 06 March

    P.S. I listed a handful of sources, but I would start with the following which contains sections on the issue of the verb system:

    Carson, D. A., Exegetical Fallacies. 2nd. ed. Grand Rapids: Baker, 1996.

    Porter, Stanley and Carson, D. A., eds. Biblical Greek Language and Linguistics: Open Questions in Current Research. Sheffield: JSOT Press, 1993.

    Porter, Stanley E . Idioms of the Greek New Testament. 2nd ed. Biblical Languages: Greek 2. London: Sheffield. Academic. 1994.

    The most important work in publication on this subject is the following (but it is very technical):

    Porter, Stanley. Verbal Aspect in the Greek of the New Testament, with Reference to Tense and Mood. SBG 1, New York: Peter Lang, 1993.

  • Israel Alves
    Posted at 00:12h, 07 March

    Hi Joel, I would like to know your opinion about the trumpets, especially the fifth trumpet. Will this a event to affect only Israel, the east middle or all the world?
    I ask this because many people claim the presence of Church here in earth not just during seals but also during the trumpets. However Revelation 9:4 says the only ones from among men that will be saved from attack of locusts are these who have the seal of God on their foreheads (144.000).

    The sealed of God are jews, not gentiles.
    Following this thinking, could we conclude that rapture take place before the trumpets, or the fifth trumpet affects specifically Jerusalem, since Ezequiel 9:4 says that sealed of God are men from Jerusalem (or at least they are in Jerusalém when they are sealed)?

    In case this trumpet be exclusively destined to the wicked in Jerusalem and not to others places in earth would be unnecessary the text mentioning order for the Church (spread across the earth) protect itself against damages caused by the fifth trumpet, thus supporting the possibility we are here, but protected.
    Is there biblical basis to say this situation will only affect Jerusalem and not the rest of the world?

  • Geoff Ziegler
    Posted at 04:04h, 07 March

    Has anyone ever considered a THIRD view … that the 7 Seals are simply the Judge in the Heavenly Court “unsealing” the judgments that are soon to come upon the earth.

    Therefore, the 7 Seals represent the ENTIRE tribulation period.

    Whereas the 7 Trumpets … and 7 Vials ARE consecutive … so you would have (don’t know of this forum will format this right) …

    1 2 3 4 5 6 7 – Seals
    1 2 3 4 5 6 7 – Trumpets
    1 2 3 4 5 6 7 – Vials

    This could be verified by Rev. 6:13 where the “sun, blood moon, and falling stars” are mentioned … this corresponds to Matt. 24:29 where the sun, blood moon, and stars falling is also mentioned … right BEFORE the coming of the Lord in Glory, and our gathering together to Him (the Rapture).

    Although I’m still inconclusive on this theory … until I do some more study. Just putting it out there to discuss.

    The primary reason I have discarded a Pre-Wrath or Mid-Trib Rapture position … is because of Rev. 16:15, where Jesus Himself is STILL saying to His saints …

    Rev. 16:15; “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.”

    Keep in mind, this is right before the Battle of Armageddon and right before the 7th Vial judgment, at the END of the Tribulation Period.

    If Jesus is “coming as a thief” in a Pre-Trib or Mid-Trib Rapture … how can He be coming AGAIN as a thief here?

    And finally, I’ve heard the argument from Pre-Tribers that the word “church” is not used for the rest of the Book of Revelation AFTER the Letters to the 7 Churches.

    The only problem with that thinking is, the word “church” is not mentioned in; Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude either … does that mean the church was not here on earth in those books either?

    Clearly no!

    Just my 2 cents.

  • Geoff Ziegler
    Posted at 04:08h, 07 March

    Well … it didn’t format the numbers right … hopefully, you’ll get my drift.

    Seals = The ENTIRE Tribulation Period
    Trumpets = The FIRST 7 Judgments
    Vials = The LAST 7 Judgments

  • Alan Kurschner
    Posted at 01:19h, 08 March

    Hi Geoff,

    You said: “The primary reason I have discarded a Pre-Wrath or Mid-Trib Rapture position … is because of Rev. 16:15, where Jesus Himself is STILL saying to His saints …”

    Have you read a prewrath response to this objection? I responded to it directly in my book _Antichrist Before the Day of the Lord_ (page 162 and endnote 52). I encourage you to get a copy of the book. I would be interested in your response to it.

    Thanks,
    Alan

  • Len
    Posted at 04:30h, 10 March

    Hello Everyone! This is a wonderful site because you are all intelligent, inquiring minds seeking the truth and open to ideas no matter how it diverges from your own belief. I see affection and respect all around even if there are many differing opinions.
    Thank you, Joel, for making such discussions possible online.
    Also, thank you, Dave, for correcting our attitudes by reminding us of what is suffered by our persecuted brothers in other parts of the world.
    I would like to add my own comment on the belief that: things have to get from BAD to WORSE in the last days.
    Isa. 60:2 says that “gross darkness” shall cover the people. The original word used here is “orphl”. This word is used 15 times in the Old Testament and it’s always translated “the thick darkness where God is.” So, is the darkness that’s coming really bad news or the greatest news for the world?
    And how did they know that it’s translated a dark cloud, maybe it’s just opaque? Whatever it really means, what matters is… God will be there.
    I don’t know if it’ll be the “parousia” but “orphl” is the word used for the clouds on the mountain when He gave the 10 Commandments. If that’s how He’ll be present in the last days, wouldn’t we all welcome it? It’ll be a holy, terrible, awesome presence but it’ll be Him!
    There is a feeling of dread that seems to be covering the world because of the news of the Muslim incursion of many nations and the terrorism they bring. And the killing and martyrdom of Christians, especially the manner in which they are killed are like nightmares come to real life. But I believe that God gave them supernatural grace for their circumstances. Why else can those who’ve gone thru persecutions still keep on preaching the Word after let out of jail 2x or more? How can the old saints sing when they were being burned alive? Do you know that there are currently 2 million Christians in underground churches in the Middle East? And their numbers are growing fast. The same is true in India. Because it is said that Jesus is personally appearing to those people in dreams and visions. And these new Christians are willing to die for their faith.
    I believe that “God is the Father of lights. In Him there is no shadow at all.” Jesus said, “I will build My church. And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” He is not on the defensive because of the Muslims, He is on the offensive and destroying their gates!

  • Nelson
    Posted at 14:37h, 11 March

    Alan, thanks for joining onto the site. I love your perspective. I also like all the other perspectives here. In Matthew 25, Jesus teaching on the end times gives the Parable of the Talents. These “talanton” of gold are the scriptures and the wise slaves “do business” with the scriptures and thus double their knowledge. Thanks to all for “doing business” with God’s Word on this site. I am doubling my “talanton”.

  • Nelson
    Posted at 15:00h, 11 March

    I have seen next to nothing about the old testament “parables” that detail the Israelites struggles and teach us lessons on end time truths. What is everyone’s perspective on the Battle of Jericho? Joshua (Yeshua) leads Israel into the promised land (Kingdom). The “crazy” battle plan given by the Leader of the Lord’s Army makes sense when compared to Revelation.

    Circle the City once a day for six days (first six seals)
    Circle the city 7 times on the SEVENTH DAY (seventh seal/7 bowls?)
    Seven priests blowing 7 trumpets (7 Trumpets)
    Loud Shout (shout of the archangel as Christ descends)
    Walls fall down (great earthquake leveling the cities of earth)
    Rahab and her family saved UP out of the city (Israel saved)
    2 Spies (2 witnesses?)

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