Moses Versus Plato

I wanted to share the following session by John Harrigan. I’m convinced that a basic understanding of the early corruption of the Biblical apocalyptic worldview and eschatology within the Church is at the root of perhaps 90% of the theological divisions that we experience amongst ourselves today. I am also convinced that if the end times church is to ever truly fulfill its mandate it must first reclaim the worldview, and eschatology of the early church. It is imperative that gain a solid understanding of some of the themes discussed in the following session. I trust you will be edified. You can also go to the DTN website to download the audio file and notes for the session.

  • David Roberts
    Posted at 01:53h, 15 December

    Interesting that you post this one today.
    After your suggestion to Obed, I watched this last night.

    What really disturbs me is how practically every Christian I know doesn’t believe in the resurrection of the dead, at least for themselves. What’s the point in Christ being the firstfruits if there is no later harvest of many brethren? Everyone is convinced they’re going to be eternally disembodied spirits up in netherworld.

    One of their favourite proof texts is 1 Corinthians 15:50:
    “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.”

    But while the Biblical text says nothing about whether Yeshua had blood after the resurrection, it does say it had flesh.

    “As they were talking about these things, Yeshua himself stood among them, and said to them, “Shalom to you!” But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, he said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate before them.” Luke 24:36–43

    Jerome in his commentary on Isaiah wrote,
    “The apostles believed him to be a spirit according to the Gospel which is of the Hebrews and is read by the Nazarenes,
    “a demon without a body,” he said to them…”
    which Hebrew would be רוּחַ בְּלֹא גּוּף.

    Ignatius in His letter to the Symrnæans wrote,
    “‎For I know and believe that He was in the flesh even after the resurrection; and when He came to Keifa and his company, He said to them, “Lay hold and handle me, and see that I am not a demon without a body.” And straightway they touched Him, and they believed, being joined unto His flesh and His blood.”

    Ignatius’ seems to be quoting the Hebrew gospel which has ‘without a body’.

    For lovers of language for spirit without a body (NT calls house), Ignatius used the Greek, “δαιμόνιον ἀσώματον,” while Jerome translated the original Hebrew which He had access to into Latin as,
    “incorporale daemonium.” Jerome also translated Igantius’ Greek “δαιμόνιον ἀσώματον” into Latin as, “daemonium incorporale,” in On Famous Men 16, writing of Ignatius.

    My point is that there is different types of flesh. Corrupt mortal sinful flesh which will not inherit the kingdom, and incorruptible heavenly flesh which can and will inherit the kingdom.

    Angels have angelic bodies. They have their own tents for their spirits, only demons and departed souls have no body.

    Living forever on a paradise world with strong immortal flesh is worth dying and suffering for far more than floating forever on a cloud as a disembodied spirit!

  • David Roberts
    Posted at 02:04h, 15 December

    Apart from the fact I’m not a Calvinist, I think Hans Kim did a good job with :

  • KP
    Posted at 04:25h, 16 December

    “early corruption of the Biblical apocalyptic worldview and eschatology within the Church”

    Early corruption within the Church… this is what Protestants, Mormons, and Jehovah’s Witnesses have to appeal to when they realize their views are completely different than the early Church.

    When you come up with an idea in the 16th-20th century and then look back to the first few centuries, and they completely contradict your views… well, clearly *you* must have the correct interpretation, while the early Christians were wrong (many of whom KNEW the Apostles).

    As John wrote in John 1, “in the beginning was the Logos.” Logos was a name for the uncreated invisible monotheistic God in Greek philosophy, which traces back to at least Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle.

  • Joel
    Posted at 14:19h, 16 December


    First, your comments are rude and quite un-Christ like. It is not mature or polite to begin a conversation with anyone by by accusing them of being in a cult. I hope you did not learn this behavior at whatever Church you attend. That said, your comments are also quite ignorant and just simply wrong. I hope that this matters to you and not simply defending your team. No amount of name calling or other such distractions will allow you to avoid the simple truth that all of the earliest Church writers, those closest to the Apostles, were Premillennialists. That the corruption into Amillennialism happened is also not in dispute.


  • David Roberts
    Posted at 07:13h, 17 December

    KP I might agree with you if Joel was saying the Biblical apocalyptic worldview and eschatology was corrupted from the very beginning, from day one.

    If Joel was arguing that all Apostolic tradition which is recorded is corrupt and only his church understands the real truth, that would be complete fabrication and fraudulent, but that’s NOT what he’s arguing at all.

    He’s arguing (feel free to correct me Joel if I’m misrepresenting you) for adherence to early Apostolic tradition as recorded in the early Ante-Nicene writers.

    Joel’s not just making it up, but looking at the earliest authentic sources closest to the Apostolic age.

  • Richard
    Posted at 03:19h, 19 December

    @ Alfred: The reformers did a good job reforming their soteriology, it’s a shame they didn’t go further with their reforms and change there eschatology. As for my view on eschatology I hold to a premillennial view but as for the rapture I’m not sure on the timing. I think I lean more toward a rapture near the end of the tribulation because of passages like Matthew 24: 29-31, Mark 13: 24-27. Isaiah 19 also leads me to believe that the rapture will be at the second coming because it talks about how God will come into Egypt riding on a cloud, it says in verse 20 that God comes into Egypt because the saints in Egypt cry out to him for a savior because of the oppression they are under by the fierce king/cruel master of verse 4. I think the fierce king/cruel master is the king of the north spoken of in Daniel, the one that goes into Egypt and conquers them.

  • Alfred
    Posted at 16:24h, 19 December

    @Richard: Although, I firmly believe a pre-trib rapture, timing is difficult to pin down. One of my reasons for a pre-trib rapture is I believe there is a clear distinction between national Israel and the Church/Body of Christ. I also believe there has to be and there is a major difference in the translation of the church and the 2d coming of Jesus Christ. The church is a gift from the Father to the Son (Ephe 5:25-27) that gift has to be given to him before His 2d coming and I believe church must be judged (2 Cor 5:10). Also, the church/Holy Spirit, I believe must removed from earth, before the anti-Christ can be revealed (2 Thess 2:1-9). Some say, if the Holy Spirit is removed, how can anyone be saved? I believe the Holy Spirit will work as he did in the Old Testament, in individuals, not as he did in a particular group of people(the Church). Besides, the Holy Spirit is omnipresent.
    Some believe in a 6th seal rapture/pre-wrath rapture. That is before the trumpet or vial judgments began. That is possible I guess. I really don’t know. But, just before his 2d coming, after all the judgments are poured out, just before the Battle of Armageddon, no I don’t believe that at all.
    Richard, Isaiah 19 is difficult to reply to, but may I refer you to a website called Faith By Hearing, click on Arnold Fruchtenbaum. He has a very good study called Prophecy, Israel, the 2d coming and the Arab States. He discusses Isaiah 19 and Egypt and all the Arab States. He goes into detail what he believes happens at Christ’s 2d coming and and how the lord deals with the Arab States.

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