10 Sep The Battle of Gog of Magog & the Return of Jesus
The Book of Revelation, chapter 19, contains what is perhaps the most famous Biblical passage concerning the return of Jesus. There, Jesus the Messiah is seen to burst forth from heaven, riding on a white horse with the armies of heaven following Him. But as powerful and well known as this prophetic portrayal of the return of Jesus is, few are aware of the fact that the prophecy of Ezekiel 38 and 39, most often known as the Battle of Gog of Magog, also concludes with the return of Jesus. In fact, it can be said that Ezekiel 38 and 39 is in fact, the Armageddon of the Old Testament.
Although many popular interpreters have wrongly understood this passage to conclude several years before the return of Jesus, any honest assessment of the text simply does not allow for this. But among the many reasons to reject a pre-Day of the LORD conclusion of this prophecy, one of the simplest, is because it concludes with the LORD actually physically present in the land of Israel.
That’s right, Ezekiel reveals that at the conclusion of Gog’s invasion, Jesus the Messiah is physically present on the ground, in the land. Consider the following passage:
“For in my jealousy and in my blazing wrath I declare, on that day there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. The fish of the sea and the birds of the heavens and the beasts of the field and all creeping things that creep on the ground, and all the people who are on the face of the earth, shall quake at my presence” —Ezekiel 38:19–20
According to this text, the Lord Himself says that throughout the earth, both people and animals will “quake at [His] presence.” The word used for presence here is the Hebrew word paneh. Paneh is a reference to the actual face of someone or something. When God says that the people of the earth will quake at His paneh, He is saying that they will be terrified because of His actual physical presence, on the ground, in the land of Israel (see also: Zechariah 14:2-5, Isaiah 29:2-8, Revelation 16:16-20).
Concerning the word paneh, The New Unger’s Bible Dictionary says, “The presence (face) of Jehovah is Jehovah in his own personal presence.” The New International Encyclopedia of Bible Words says, “In the OT, being in God’s or another’s presence is indicated by a preposition (l) prefixed to the Hebrew word panim (‘face’). The thought is to be ‘before the face of the person.” Paneh is used throughout the Old Testament to refer to the actual presence of God. Jacob, for instance, after wrestling with the Angel of the Lord, referred to seeing God face-to-face:
“So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying, ‘For I have seen God face [paneh] to face [paneh], and yet my life has been delivered’” —Genesis 32:30
It is also interesting to note that in place of the Hebrew paneh, the Septuagint used the Greek word prosopon. Prosopon is one of two words commonly used in the New Testament to refer to actual presence. The other word is parousia, which is commonly associated with the Second Coming. To convey actual presence, between parousia and prosopon, prosopon is the more powerful term. While parousia most often implies coming, prosopon implies actual face-to-face presence. As Jesus is coming on the clouds, this is His parousia, but once He has actually arrived, then the word prosopon is used.
An excellent example of the New Testament usage of prosopon is a scene where the righteous are actually looking upon the face of God in the eternal city:
“No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. They will see his face [prosopon], and his name will be on their foreheads” —Revelation 22:4
Ezekiel’s description of people quaking in fear of God’s face reveals that at the conclusion of the Battle of Gog and Magog, Jesus the Messiah, God incarnate, is physically present on the earth, in the land of Israel.
The Holy One in Israel
Further evidence for the physical presence of Jesus at the conclusion of this battle is seen in the following verse:
“And my holy name I will make known in the midst of my people Israel, and I will not let my holy name be profaned anymore. And the nations shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.” — Ezekiel 39:7
This is the only time that the phrase “the LORD, the Holy One in Israel” is used in the whole Bible. It is the Hebrew YHVH qadowsh baYisra’el. A similar phrase, “the Holy One of Israel” (qadowsh Yisra’el), is used thirty-one times in Scripture (e.g., Isaiah 12:6; 43:3; 55:5; 60:9, etc.). But here in Ezekiel, the Lord is not merely the Holy One of Israel; He is actually present in the land and on the ground! While the popular position holds that this passage concludes several years before the return of Jesus, this verse makes this an absolute impossibility.
Other biblical commentators have also taken special note of God’s presence in Ezekiel’s oracle as evidence that it is a parallel to the Battle of Armageddon in Revelation 19. Apologist Dave Hunt for instance has stated:
“There is no doubt, from both Zechariah 12 and Revelation 1 and 19, that this personal coming of Yahweh to rescue His people and to destroy Antichrist and his armies takes place at Armageddon. It is significant, then, that similar language concerning the personal presence of God is found in Ezekiel 38 and 39, thus identifying the event described there as Armageddon also.”
Hunt’s observations are correct. But while most conservative, premillennialist, futurist interpreters who take Scripture at face value and use a literalist heremeutic will interpret the entirety of this passage in a literal fashion, when it comes to these two texts which show that God is actually present and in the land, many suddenly switch to an allegorical and non-literalist interpretation, without any justification for doing so.
If one uses a consistent literal method to interpret Ezekiel 38 and 39, then one must acknowledge that it concludes with the return of Jesus the Messiah. And as I have said before, if this is the case, within the world of Biblical prophecy, this absolutely changes everything. It is high time for the Church to begin wrestling with the implications.
Alan CobbPosted at 20:33h, 10 September
Fantastic article. I disagree with the term “Battle of Armageddon,” however, I think incorrect terminology leads to incorrect theology. The title of this battle is found in Rev. 16:14 and is: “The Battle of the Great Day of God Almighty.” When we use “Armageddon” we lose the tremendous volume of Scripture concerning The Day of the Lord. There are at least 35 verses of Scripture with the proper title “Day of the Lord,” Day of God’s wrath,” or Day of Christ, etc. Isa. 2, 13, 34. Joel:1,2,3, Obadiah, Zech, Zeph, I Thess, II Peter and many, many more. When we do a complete study on the Day of the Lord we see exactly when Christ returns and the saints of God are gathered together with Him. Jesus declared He would have His day in Luke 17:24 and it would be the day of His revelation, (17:30).
Robin DensfordPosted at 20:43h, 10 September
Respectfully, the scripture goes on to say:
I will call for a sword against Gog throughout all My mountains,” says the Lord God. “Every man’s sword will be against his brother. 22 And I will bring him to judgment with pestilence and bloodshed; I will rain down on him, on his troops, and on the many peoples who are with him, flooding rain, great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. 23 Thus I will magnify Myself and sanctify Myself, and I will be known in the eyes of many nations. Then they shall know that I am the Lord.” ’
As I interpret that, GOD will be involved in this battle, not Jesus Christ.
JoelPosted at 22:24h, 10 September
Jesus Christ is God, I would assume you agree. Jesus the Messiah, God incarnate, will return to defend His people Israel. God the Father does not come down to fight.
A basic principle of Christian biblical interpretation holds that whenever God appears physically on the earth, or appears to a person, throughout the Scriptures, this is a reference to God the Son. It is either a pre-incarnate appearance of God the Son, or is a Messianic prophecy concerning Jesus at His return. A few examples of pre-incarnate appearances of Jesus, God the Son:
Now the LORD appeared to him [Abraham] by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. —Genesis 18:1
So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, “I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved.” —Genesis 32:30
Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank. —Exodus 24:9-11
“I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; But now my eye sees You; Therefore I retract, And I repent in dust and ashes.” —Job 42:5-6
In the year of King Uzziah’s death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple… Then I said, “Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.” —Isaiah 6:1,5
Now the angel of the LORD did not appear to Manoah or his wife again. Then Manoah knew that he was the angel of the LORD. So Manoah said to his wife, “We will surely die, for we have seen God.” —Judges 13:21-22
As the appearance of the rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the surrounding radiance. Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell on my face and heard a voice speaking. —Ezekiel 1:28
But here is the key:
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. —John 1:18
“Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. —John 6:46
For further study, I would highly recommend Ron Rhodes book, Christ Before the Manger.
Perry BrownPosted at 22:44h, 10 September
Revelation 19:15, 21 and other verses mentions that Jesus will smite and slain the nations with the sword that proceeds from His mouth, upon His return. This is not a literal sword that comes out of His mouth like a long metal tongue. This speaks of His words (Eph 6:17), the Words that he speaks will slay the wicked. Isaiah 11:14 says that “He shall smite the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips shall He slay the wicked”.
At the second coming of Jesus, He will, after raptured the saints, march in the land towards Jerusalem. While He troddens the nations (Isaiah 63:1-6), Jesus will release with the Words that proceed from His mouth the seven bows of wrath judgments (Rev 16).
The description of Gog’s defeat in Ezekiel 38:19-22 are the same as the bowls of wrath judgments. Jesus, present in the land, releases the bowls with His words (sword that proceeds from His mouth) upon His enemies. The same could be said about Habakkuk 3:3-15, Jesus in the land releasing judgments upon His enemies, interesting though He uses His hands to release power (Hab. 3:4).
JoelPosted at 23:56h, 10 September
Fully agreed. Blessings
JoelPosted at 23:57h, 10 September
Yes, exactly. Habakkuk, Isaiah 63, Psalm 68. Several others portray him personally releasing the bowls of wrath against His enemies.
Chase NormanPosted at 04:30h, 11 September
God (through you) has changed my life in so many ways, I hope you know your informative look on the end-times is not in vain (at least from one person in the world) guaranteed.
From what I have learned from you, is quite straight and narrow, I’ve always had many questions I wanted answered from you concerning the end times particularly with the Rapture and your in-take on it.
From what I’ve read here you (also) believe in a Day of the LORD/Rapture? If not,what is your take on this subject, which from this article kinda implies you do.
JoelPosted at 09:56h, 11 September
I believe in a Rapture that coincides with the return of Jesus. This was the view of the early Church, and as such, it is referred to by theologians as Historical or Classic Premillennialism. However, I like to emphasize that this is not an issue worth dividing over. Those who believe in a pre-trib rapture should be prepared to face antichrists and tribulations. Those who hold my view should live like today may be their last. For beyond merely holding the correct doctrine, is the proper application. Beyond the doctrinal, their is the pastoral. My hope is that we are all “ready” for the days ahead, regardless of what they hold.
Jan HoltropPosted at 13:09h, 11 September
Joel, I totally agree. The siege of Jerusalem during the reign of Hezekiah provides another pattern of events when Jesus returns to defend Jerusalem.
BenPosted at 00:44h, 12 September
I’m just about finished with the portion of Mideast Beast dedicated to Gog and Magog. Great presentation. It seemed to cover all the bases aside from one, which has left me a bit puzzled. Revelation 20:7 says, “And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.” In light of the overwhelming biblical basis for Gog being the Antichrist, and the fact that he is thrown into the lake of fire in chapter 19, how would you explain this passage? The flow from chapter 19 to 20 seems to be quite continuous chronologically, and seeing Gog reappear at the end of the millennium is baffling. Thanks for any insight 🙂
JoelPosted at 00:57h, 12 September
The Gog OF Magog of Ezekiel 38, 39 and the Gog AND Magog of Revelation 20 are different.
Gog of Magog is a person and a place, whereas Gog and Magog is essentially an expression referring to Satan’s armies.
It is similar to when one says something along the lines of we will have a financial “armageddon” or “apocalypse”. Both of these terms have become expressions within popular culture. By the first century, because Gog of Magog was essentially the Armageddon of the Old Testament, the term had developed into an expression of sorts referring to the armies of Satan attacking God’s people.
Beyond this, there are numerous reasons why the Gog of Rev cannot be the Gog of Ezekiel.
If this were the case, then there would be unbelieving gentiles and Jews all throughout the Millennium.
There would remain to be Jewish captives and exiles all throughout the Millennium.
I know this is just a brief intro to the subject. But I hope it has helped. Forgive my brevity.
JosePosted at 03:58h, 12 September
Why to say the sword that comes out of Jesus’ mouth are the plagues?
Why could not be simply the power of the Holy Spirit?
Will the Holy Spirit be a spectator during the Last Day?
(Not that the Holy Spirit is a person)
The Hebrew word translated “spirit” in the Old Testament strictly means “breath” or “power”; thus God’s spirit is His “breathing”, the very essence of God, reflecting His mind.
Tolu O-OlowoyePosted at 11:03h, 12 September
Whatever title brethren has chosen to give this day,of paramount importance to me is that we be PREPARED! Let our garments remain unspotted,study, meditate,pray that at HIS appearing, we/I will not be ashamed.
JoelPosted at 12:16h, 12 September
JoelPosted at 12:19h, 12 September
The Holy Spirit is absolutely a person. Yes, He is the very essence of God, but He is also a person. He is not a mere force.
Perry BrownPosted at 12:21h, 12 September
Revelation 19:11, 15 “Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war… Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”
Revelation 19:19, 21 “19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army… And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.”
Revelation 2:12, 16 “… These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword… Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.”
Isaiah 11:4 “…He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.”
2 Thessalonians 2:8 “then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.”
There are many examples in Scripture that use the language of a sword or breath that proceeds from the mouth of Jesus to slay, strike, destroy, war, fight the enemies of God. When Jesus will be on the ground riding the white horse He will speak and many enemies will be slain and killed. This could be multiform. One of the way will this happen is though the release and pouring down the bowls of wrath.
For sure, the power of the Holy Spirit will be involved in the process. The trinity always works in unity. We have to remember that Lamb, Jesus, is in control of all the end-time judgments (seals, trumpets and bowls). He is the One that will take the scroll and loose the seals. All is under His leadership. Jesus will speak and the angels will pour out the bowls of wrath.
Revelation 16:1 “Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth.” This voice could be of the Holy Spirit. The trinity, God, the Father, God, the Son and God, the Holy Spirit are working in unity.
David GPosted at 22:04h, 12 September
Can you provide some other reasons why the Gog and Magog of Rev 20 would be any different than the one described in Ezekiel 38? I believe, and am amazed by, the unity of scripture and use scripture to interpret itself. I believe if we do this, it becomes clear that Revelation 20 is a figurative picture of the entire Christian era, that we are living right near the end of it. I could go on for days with various scriptures that make this very clear, but I won’t right now unless someone asks for more information. Check out this brief article on some points on Rev 20, and how it becomes more clear with other scriptures in view.
JoelPosted at 22:56h, 12 September
Briefly, your question concerns premillennialism versus amillennialism. But restricting the conversation to Revelation 20 is a massive error common among amillennialists. A literal millennium is clearly taught throughout the prophets. To deny this is to pervert large portions of Scripture. It was also undeniably the view of all of the early post-apostolic believers. It was not until the Greek philosophical influenced school of Alexandria began to creep into Biblical interpretation that such radically allegorical methods became acceptable.
David GPosted at 23:15h, 12 September
I know this is taking this off-topic, but when you have some time I wouldn’t mind hearing more on your thoughts on this (specifically the old testament passages on the millennium). I’m not sure either what your referring to about Greek philosophical views influenced biblical interpenetration. I’m not saying the Bible says the millennium doesn’t occur, I’m just saying the scripture teaches that it is currently occurring, and ends with Satan being released from the abyss (which I believe has occurred already as well).
JoelPosted at 23:50h, 12 September
The influence of the Alexandrian school of allegorical interpreters such as Clement, Origen, Eusebius and ultimately Augustine, eventually replacing the premillennialism of the Apostles and early post-apostolic fathers is a simple reality within Church history. Understanding this is to understand how the Church got off track. To not understand it, is to remain ignorant of a basic component of Christian history.
So, let me begin by saying that nowhere does the Bible say that we are now in the millennium. In order to be an amillennialist, one must impose an amillennial / allegorical / (Greek-influenced, spiritual interpretation) onto premillennial texts.
David GPosted at 02:20h, 13 September
I’m not sure how this destroys the point of view of amillennialism. I’ve based my view of the “millennium” solely on what the scripture states. We both agree that Christ returns at the end or rather to end the battle with Gog and Magog, and Rev 20 states that Satan gathers the armies of the world together against Jerusalem after he is released and after the millennium. Then it would make sense that the millennium must occur before the return of Christ. I’m not reading into it anything more or less. I’m merely stating what the scripture seems to make clear through using other scriptures to understand itself.
For example, if you agree that Isaiah 2:4 is about the millennium (I believe it is referring to the judgement of the world by Christ, and after that never being war again aka Heaven)
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
4 And He will judge between the nations,
And will [a]render decisions for many peoples;
And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not lift up sword against nation,
And never again will they learn war.
If this is a text about the millennium how can Satan then gather the armies of the world for war at the end of the millennium? That would make Isaiah 2:4 incorrect. It’s laughable to think that after Christ returns Satan could then again deceive some saints into attacking God and his people.
JoelPosted at 02:30h, 13 September
You still have not shown any passage that states that we are now living in the millennium. You said that the Bible says this. Where? Back up your comment and spell it out.
The premillennialist has on his side the fact that any straight forward reading of Revelation 19-20 has the Millennium following Jesus’ return. It is not the other way around. One must read something into the text that is not there.
Its not at all “laughable” that some people would rebel after Christ has lived on the earth. But it is laughable to say that Satan has been bound for the past 2000 years.
Joel VarnerPosted at 03:48h, 13 September
Satan doesn’t deceive the saints at the end of the millennium. He deceives the non-resurrected inhabitants of the millennial kingdom. Those who weren’t Christians who also didn’t take the mark of the beast when Jesus returns will continue to live and pro-create during Jesus’ thousand year reign. Notice that God destroys the rebellious army with fire and then the Father’s throne descends onto the Earth. That’s at the end of the 1,000 years.
Read the Old Testament prophecies regarding the Millennial Kingdom and you’ll see that there are non-resurrected people who inhabit the earth. Egypt, for example, is told that they won’t receive rain if they do not come to Jerusalem on the Feast days and that Jesus will rule with a rod of iron. Why would resurrected saints not come to Jerusalem and incurs drought and why would Jesus rule resurrected saints with a rod of iron?
phillipPosted at 10:40h, 13 September
I’m just now reading your very well-researched piece of Gog and its end-time place in prophecy, and an excellent work you’re doing too, but as with Ben-who was quite puzzled about the two sets of Gog and Magog in Scripture, they puzzle me too, which leads me to see them as one and the same event.
An event that actually takes place at the end of the Millennium.
Over a hundred years ago, Dr. Bullinger convincingly argued that, contrary to what Christian theologians taught, the Church is not the subject of the Book of Revelations, but Israel is it’s subject.
If that’s true, then the 1000 year Millennium of Christ (but not our Lord Himself physically present) should be stamped: Israel. And Israel in the flesh and them occupying a physical Theocractic Kingdom over all the nations of the earth, with a earthly Prince Messiah, a Scion of David as foretold by the prophets.
It all this be true, then Jesus will not step His foot on this earth again until after the Millennium, when He returns to take His bride immediately…not waiting around for another 1000 years…back to His Father’s house. This is only one of the many reasons why the Pre-tribulation teachings have troubled me so much, another being the utter impossibility of the Glorified Son of God ever setting His Holy foot on an unholy planet defiled by sin, again. Why, so often, does the Scripture pictures Him as carrying out His work up in the air, but never on the ground?
It just worries me that we have got this all wrong, the reality may just turn out to be very different than any of us could have dream!
JoelPosted at 11:04h, 13 September
With all due respect, Scripturally speaking, this is absolutely impossible. To place Jesus’ return after the millennium is to ignore vast portions of the prophets, Jesus and the apostles words. Paul specifically told us that we are to eagerly wait for His coming, here and now. Beyond this, “My Father’s House” is not a reference to “Heaven”, but to the coming Millennial Temple described in Ezekiel 40-47.
phillipPosted at 11:19h, 13 September
If I may add a little more here concerning the real reason why I do worry so much about my own salvation, and all the rest of us too, is what the great apostle Paul wrote concerning the endtime apostasy of Christendom, and what seems to me to be God’s real controversy with the Gentile Nations, and why He brings about the Great Tribulation upon them. He comes in defense of Israel. Period!
But, we in the Church seem to be numbered in Revelations with those who greatly oppose Israel’s right to set up their earthly Kingdom. Why? Because the Church is herself attempting to set up their own Kingdom on earth too.
And from where I live here in Sweden, that seems to be exactly what the majority of Christian denominations under many teachings such as “Kingdom Now!”, in America are so feverishly working to accomplish, thus we have The Apostasy, and two competing claimants to that Kingdom, and thus the outbreak of intense persecution of Israel, and then God steps in.But where is Paul’s apostate Christendom in this scene in the valley of outside Jerusalem? Why they are part of the Armies of Christian nations surrounding Jerusalem!
JoelPosted at 11:25h, 13 September
I fully agree with you concerning your disgust for the thoroughly unBiblical “Kingdom Now” doctrine. But despite the trending toward this type of thinking, there are many believers globally who stand with Israel and understand that in the days to come Satan will attack both Israel and also the faithful Christians of the earth. In America, there are many more who reject Kingdom Now and embrace Biblical Premillennialism, and understand our duty to bear faithful witness to Israel in the wilderness.
Rev 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down–that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.
Rev 12:11 They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.”
Rev 12:13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
Rev 12:14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.
Rev 12:15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent.
Rev 12:16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring–those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
JoelPosted at 11:29h, 13 September
I would highly recommend the following series:
One of my favorite teachers thoroughly discrediting Kingdom Now theology.
phillipPosted at 12:57h, 13 September
Great!Thanks so much for directing me to this site!
Just what I’ve been online searching so much for.
Blessings in your great work of light.
JoelPosted at 13:16h, 13 September
Yes sir. I trust it will greatly bless you. John is a humble man and a very gifted and knowledgeable teacher.
David GPosted at 13:26h, 13 September
ack, I just typed a really long reply and it got lost, sigh.
Joel, is there any other way to communicate and discuss these topics then this comment board?
JoelPosted at 19:09h, 13 September
My ability to comment is very limited. But there are others who are very available at the discussion boards:
RogerPosted at 07:10h, 19 September
there is talk of the “kingdom of Israel” and the Kingdom of Christians” I would just like to point out that there will be neither. but the kingdom of Christ.
Ben PoirierPosted at 15:37h, 01 October
Hi again, Joel.
I believe that you have hit the proverbial nail on the head when it comes to debunking the European Anti-Christ theory.
Here is my comment/question.
I believe Ezek 38 should be considered separately from Ezek 39 as I believe they are referring to two separate “sorties” of Gog. Ch 38 corresponds closely to Rev 6 and Matt 24, while Ezek 39 fits in with the Battle of Armageddon.
The face of God is referred to in both instances – the generals, etc. see the face of God in Rev 6 and are terrified, just as they do in Ezek 38 (Jesus referred to this as the “sign of the Son of Man” which precedes His parousia).
The mountains are said to shake violently in both chapters, later on they be destroyed during the trumpets and bowls.
Ezek 38 is probably a reference to the Parousia (Christians are not destined to suffer the wrath of God which only begins after Chapter 6 of Rev.).
Ezek 39 deals with the death of Gog and the aftermath.
S StevenPosted at 16:12h, 01 October
The intended synchronism between Gog and Antichrist is interesting, but there are 2 serious flaws in this synchronism :
1) We know from Matthew 24:15-22, that the Great Tribulation begins when Antichrist enters the Temple :
“So when you see standing in the holy place, the abomination that causes desolation, spoken of through the prophet Daniel – let the reader understand – then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now – and never to equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.”
This ushers in an immediate occupation of Israel by Antichrist, the political integrity of the state of Israel will fail and the Jews will have just enough time to escape to the mountains, or else they would be slaughtered. The speed of the event is striking. Thereafter there will be no state of Israel anymore as a political entity for the rest of the Tribulation.
However, Ezekiel 38:10-12 shows that Gog invades Israel when she is dwelling in peace :
“This is what the Sovereign LORD says: On that day thoughts will come into your mind and you will devise an evil scheme. You will say, “I will invade a land of unwalled villages. I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people – all of them living without walls and without gates and bars. I will plunder and loot and turn my hand against the resettled ruins and the people gathered from the nations, rich in livestock and goods, living at the center of the land.”
According to the suggested synchronism, this describes Armageddon, which will take place at the end of the Great Tribulation.
Joel, if at the start of the Great Tribulation, the Jews have to escape to the mountains to save themselves, and the political integrity of the state of Israel fails and the occupation of Israel and slaughter of Jews begins (Matthew 24:15-22), how come at the End of the Tribulation (if this is what Ezekiel 38 and 39 describe), the Jews are described as living in the center of the land as a peaceful and unsuspecting people, without walls, gates and bars ? Secondly why is it necessary for Gog to invade Israel from the north at the end of the Great Tribulation, if he already gains control over it at the start ?
2) According to Ezekiel 39:11, Gog will be buried in the land of Israel :
“On that day, I will give Gog a burial place in Israel, in the valley of those who travel east toward the Sea. It will block the way of travelers, because Gog and his hordes will be buried there. So it will be called the Valley of Gog.”
Notice that this verse clearly states that both Gog and his hordes are buried in the valley in Israel that goes toward the Dead Sea.
This is completely different from the end that Antichrist will meet (Rev 19:20-21) :
“But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. … The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.”
Here, Antichrist is not killed. He is not buried. He is thrown alive into the lake of burning sulfur.
Further, if Antichrist has gone into the Abyss, he is now neither flesh-and-blood nor a mortal. He is made of spirit and is immortal, the first fruit of those who are to be thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur for ever. Therefore he can’t be killed.
In exact contrast, Jesus Christ is the first fruit of those who will gain eternal life in Heaven.
Joel, can you address these issues, which I believe are serious flaws in the suggested synchronism between Gog and Antichrist.
I have not yet read your books but certainly intend to do so. Can you provide some guidance on the main thrust of 1) “Antichrist” 2) “Islamic Antichrist” and 3) “MidEast Beast’) ? In which of these 3 books, if any, do you discuss the “Mark of the Beast” (666) and it’s similarity to the Arabic word for “Allah” ?
I have read the e-book “Islam : the Cloak of Antichrist” by Pastor Jack Smith and the thesis is very convincing.
JoelPosted at 20:51h, 01 October
I do deal with these issues in Mideast Beast. Let me address them in two separate posts:
The first issue is resolved by recognizing that both Antichrist and Gog attack Israel during a time of false peace and security. It must be highlighted that the sense of security that Israel experiences in Ezekiel is false. Obviously, if she is about to be invaded, she is not genuinely secure or safe. So this theme of a sense of peace is identical to the false sense of security that the Antichrist will woo Israel into with his false promises and bogus treaty, which is only the prelude to his great betrayal at the mid-point of the final seven years.
“It will come about on that day, that thoughts will come into your mind and you will devise an evil plan, and you will say, ‘I will go up against the land of unwalled villages. I will go against those who are at rest, that live securely, all of them living without walls and having no bars or gates.. Ezekiel 38:10-11
“And through his shrewdness He will cause deceit to succeed by his influence; And he will magnify himself in his heart, And he will destroy many while they are at ease.” Daniel 8:25
“When the richest provinces (Israel) feel secure, he will invade them. Daniel 11:24
“While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.” 1 Thessalonians 5:3
JoelPosted at 20:56h, 01 October
On the Death of Gog/Antichrist
Some claim that Gog will be killed and buried, whereas the Antichrist is said to be “thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur” (Revelation 19:20). Thus, it is argued that the two cannot be the same entity. But this argument fails to consider other relevant passages that speak about the physical death of the Antichrist. Paul the apostle tells us that the Antichrist will in fact be slain by Jesus:
“And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming” (2 Thessalonians 2:8).
Daniel also tells us that the Antichrist will be destroyed and his body thrown into the lake of fire: “I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.” (7:11).
Later Daniel tells us that the Antichrist will come to his end in the land of Israel: “And he shall pitch his palatial tents between the sea and the glorious holy mountain. Yet he shall come to his end, with none to help him” ( 11:45).
Isaiah 14 also tell us that the Antichrist will be killed:
You said, ‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’ “Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, To the recesses of the pit… (You will be) clothed with the slain who are pierced with a sword, who go down to the stones of the pit, like a trampled corpse. -Isaiah 14:14-15, 19
It is clear, then, that the Antichrist will die as any other man. This does not conflict with his being thrown “alive” into hell (Greek: Hades or Hebrew: Sheol). As Old Testament scholar Alec Motyer has written concerning “life” after death in hell:
“First, the dead are alive—in Sheol. In the Bible, ‘death’ is never ‘termination’ but a change of place and of state with continuity of personal identity. Sheol is the ‘place’ where all the dead live.”
Simply put, while the body of the Antichrist will be killed by Jesus, his soul will be sent to hell “alive” as it were, to experience the consciousness of eternal torment.
I hope this has helped. God knows best.
JoelPosted at 21:02h, 01 October
I don’t see the two chapters as different, but speaking to the final seven years in general. I think we need to be cautious of becoming overly specific on timing issues, as prophetic language is often a bit vague on these matters, as evidenced in so many other OT prophecies. The phrase, “in that day” used through the two chapters is obviously not a literal single day, but used as a larger period of time, which culminates with the Day of the LORD.
MorpheusPosted at 14:37h, 26 February
i dont find the right subject to insert this video abuot islam and revelation 11
jamesPosted at 12:45h, 26 December
“the coming of the son of man will be like in the days of noah the people were eating, drinking, marrying, then the floods came.” When that 7 year peace treaty with Israel is established that is the beginning of the 7 year tribulation, correct? Which means the two witnesses are on the scene causing famines, earthquakes, and disasters as judgement from god. Now who in there right mind wouldn’t be expecting christ when they see the power these two men possess? even a atheist would start searching for god because the dynamics of the world would change so drastically. But especially when the two witnesses are killed and left in the streets for 3.5 days and then god ressurects them to heaven. The coming of the son of man wouldn’t be a surpise at this point the people would already see the “floods” which would make that scripture make no sence unless the rapture happened right before that 7 year peace treaty is established in my opinion. How is posttrib even a possibility considering how the tribulation is set up.
JoelPosted at 19:33h, 26 December
First, this is all speculation on your part. It is based on how you imagine or cannot imagine unbelievers will act or respond. Essentially, you are expecting unbelievers and rebels to act rationally. Was this the case after the plagues in Egypt? Of course not. Another example in Rev 19 tells us that even after the son of man bursts forth from heaven with fire and the armies of heaven, the kings of the earth and their armies will actually go to make war with the “rider on the horse”. Is this rational in any way shape or form? I think you see my point. If they were rational, they would all repent. But the Scriptures say that they will only continually harden their hearts. Thus we should expect them to act as hardened and blinded rebels. For this is what they are.
More so, you didn’t quote a single verse from Scripture. This must be our standard. For example, Scripture says clearly that the rapture happens after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29). It says that the rapture cannot happen until after the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thess 2:1-3).
And it says that unlike the peoples of the earth who are hardened in their rebellion, we will not be surprised when he returns (1 Thess 5:4-5).
Ultimately, even if you continue to reject Paul and Jesus’ words on these things, I think you would acknowledge that it is always wisdom to hope for the best but to be prepared for the worst.
I hope that this has helped.
dirk zylstraPosted at 01:24h, 19 July
you quoted dave hunt.
where can i find that?
JoelPosted at 02:03h, 19 July
Its in his book, A Cup of Trembling (pp. 414-415)
TMPosted at 18:34h, 11 September
I’m speechless, especially after reading this article and several others regarding Gog of Magog. I guess last year when I read one of your books, Islamic Antichrist, and some of your articles, I wasn’t quite ready to receive the truth because I pretty much rejected much of what you were saying and moved on. I think just about everything doing with the Gog War was the biggest obstacle I had with your perspective. I was not accepting your thesis that Gog=Antichrist and that the Gog Battle = Armageddon.
I was convinced (then) that you were misguided, yet I still respected you research and words, just didn’t want to accept them. Now, one year later, all of a sudden your arguments are making sense. All my objections, one by one, you are explaining them away and I am seeing it TODAY (yet I didn’t last year). I guess I had to retire from my full time job and make studying bible prophecy my full time job before the Lord would open my eyes. Lol.
Anyhow, I just ordered your MiddleEast Beast book and I’m jumping on board, maybe this time to stay. It’s not to say I won’t have questions or concerns, but hopefully you will be there to answer them when I bring them up. Again, Joel, thanks for your tireless efforts and insights from God’s word that you are passing down to us. May God richly bless you for your faithfulness.
Carina RazekPosted at 07:04h, 16 December
Just wondering if you have talked about how the witness of reverlation 11 fit in to the whole endtimes ? As they are on earth prophesy for 3.5 years is this just before chriSt return ? And who could they be as they can make fire come from their mouth!? Not a normal human trait ?