16 Responses

1. Joel

   Interesting show, with things to mull over.it cheered me up after missing the blood moon due to the first cloudfilled night in about six or more weeks????

   II do wonder if the marriage supper will be at the end of the millennium. Rev 19 says the Bride/wife has made herself ready, when mentioning the supper, and we know she descends at eternity.
   I Guess we’ll know eventually.

   Thanks.

2. Being a “pre-tribber” I have to concur with your guest. It is annoying that people who have some aversion to the Left Behind book series start with that AS IF that series is somehow the starting p0int for a pre-trib rapture point of view. I have believed a pre-trib catching away could occur BEFORE the series even existed. Right now it is cool to hate on the Left Behind books and pre-trib views. Left Behind is the Nickleback or Creed of prophetic views that fickle people love to hate on the interwebs. I never even heard of Tim LaHaye prior to the books coming out.

   It comes down to what the Scripture is revealing in the prophetic promise and revealing of Yahweh, NOT which teacher or book series or school or seminary we attach too. I am actually not opposed to a pre-wrath view if it is in line with the Gospel.. I even had a multiple dreams/visions…whatever, that I was living during the 7 years of Tribulation. What a shocker that was for me. But I will not change my view based on a dream or somebody’s credentials or popularity. I have been studying this for over 25 years off and on and I know all of us could be wrong because the prophetic is unrolled like a scroll as the Father chooses to reveal it.

3. Great episode! As a believer who followed your path from Pre, to Post, to Pre-Wrath; as I studied more, I really enjoy this subject! Can’t wait until the time is no more!!!

   The big eye opener for me was when I started doing word studies with A Strong’s. You tied it together pretty good and touched on when the Church is complete-in Rev 10:7. The word study “mystery”, will lead us there.. According to Eph. and Col., part of the mystery (a big part) is the church- who are also the elect. Rev 10.7 gives us an exact time when this body will be finished/complete. At least it seems clear to me. 🙂

   On comparing Mat. 24:27-31, Luke 17:22-37. I believe from the context it is clear the “eagles” or “vultures”, are describing the angels gathering together the bodies of the dead in Christ and the living in Christ-the elect, not judgement of the unbeliever. They asked where? We know it will be in the air from Paul, the dead bodies rising first, but Mark 13 shows that it is on earth and in the air from all over the earth- what Paul expounded upon, IMO. It makes me think Luke was taught first, because in Mat 24- on the Mt. of Olives, they don’t ask where. So Jesus was explaining it again, in a slightly different way on the Mount.

   IMO, the “eagles” reference harkens back to Isa. 40::31. The mounting up with wings, being us being carried to heaven by angles, or chariots like Elijah was. If you do a word study on angels and living creatures, one is described by John as looking like an eagle, or his face- Rev 4:7. I think we get the wrong impression that “men” will be picking us up, but they could shift their shape also- depending on how they want to appear to us. I believe it will be similar to Elijah going up. These are powerful creatures! Just my 2 cents. 🙂

4. So from a pre-trib perspective – The context and wording of the text in Matt. 24 are directed at Jewish believers primarily. His disciples, a Jewish audience, are asking him 3 things in response to His declaration of the temple’s destruction in Jerusalem… 1. When will these things happen. 2. What sign will signify your “coming” (interesting that they ask that since he is with them) 3. What will signify the end of the edge. Jesus answers them.

   1. From verses 4 thru 8 he begins to give them a timeframe of “birth pangs”, the increasing severity of war, famine, earthquakes… “but this is not the end”. Don’t be fooled by false Christ’s who come and say it is the end or the Day of the Lord. He elaborates that the birth pangs will increase with the growing “tribulation” of believers being killed, hated by all nations because of his name or the authority of the Gospel of Christ Jesus. A great falling away occurs in the Church, love grows cold or numb, the Gospel is preached everywhere. However, none of this signifies’s the Day of the Lord only the time BEFORE his return “that must happen”. The time before the end. Those who endure are promised to be saved, from what? Paul mentions it in his teaching, God’s wrath “you are not appointed to wrath…” This is the Church Age mentioned in Romans by Paul. They are saved from what is coming… When God gives over the hearts of man in delusion to “the man of sin”.

   2. Jesus goes on and get’s specific and harkens back to Daniel with “the sign” that starts the Great Tribulation clock ticking that signifies that the Day of the Lord is at hand – the abomination that makes desolate. We know that this language is definitively speaking to a Jewish audience, “those who are in Judea”, “pray your flight not be on the Sabbath”. This time, if not ended by God, would leave no Jew alive at the hand of the anti-Christ, or leave a man alive at the hand of God. It is a parallel when anti-Christ brings another holocaust like never seen before to the nation of Israel, the elect, “but for the elect’s sake” God ends it. The believers during the “birth pangs” are saved from this time… How? They are taken… saved. This is the time of Great Tribulation the revealing of Jesus as Yahweh, the Messiah of Israel and of their restoration “Son of man can these bones live?… Prophesy over these bones…” Ezekiel 36, 37.

   3. This His Second Coming. Jesus gives them the signs that signify the Day of the Lord is upon them; heavenly bodies lose their light and are shaken and then Jesus Himself signifies his own return as a King in “power and great glory”. It is very plain. God gathers ALL the elect, those returning on horses behind him, the dead who the second death has no power over, and Israel for the supper of the Lamb and his Bride – Jerusalem and all her children. Isaiah 62.

   Now I don’t know which Pre-Trib thinkers you have been listening too… I have no problem seeing the Noahitic parallels found in Matthew 24, 25 or anywhere else for that matter. I do believe we find a saving or catching away of the Church prior to the Great Tribulation, found during the “birth pangs” age of the Church… but we are saved, we are not appointed to God’s Wrath. He lifts us up like Noah in the Ark above judgment saved for the promise.

   This post is too long, but anything after this in Matthew 24 is just more detail and not necessarily in chronological order, in my opinion.

5. I believe the KEY question of the rapture should NOT be the timing relative to the tribulation. The real question should be the timing of the rapture relative to the resurrection. “The dead in Christ will rise first” (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Thus, the rapture is AFTER the resurrection. Revelation 20:5 teaches that the FIRST resurrection is AFTER Armageddon (Rev 19). Therefore, the rapture is after the 42-month reign of the anti-christ. This could be pre-wrath or post-trib.

6. Joel, thanks for finding the clip of the Larry Norman song! Made me smile. Very articulate and complete analysis by you and Alan. Great job guys.

7. My take on where/when the marriage supper/feast will be is from Isa. 25:6. :This mountain”, is the lifted up, Mt. Zion in Jerusalem, which will be the highest Mt. in the land, if not the whole world after the judgements of the Day of the Lord. (Isa. 2). It seems the progression of the next two verses is speaking of “the end”, in 1st Cor. 15::23-26, 54. Paul quoted part of Isa. 25:8 here. This is the order of the resurrection of the dead, and we know from Rev 20, death is not done away with until after the 1000 year reign.

   So, the feast seems like it must be shortly after the Lord takes possession of the Kingdom on the Earth, IMO. Isa. 66:18-24 seems to speak it will take about 40 days for all the people who are left to make it to Mt. Zion. It makes common sense too that the feast will only be after all people are gathered together, and all the “rat killen”, is done. Then the feast will take place with all the guests being present then..

   The Mill Kingdom will start with all saved people, but because of the fallen nature of mankind that will still be in the mortals, unsaved people will multiply quickly throughout the Earth until at the end of the 1000 years many if not most of the population of Earth will be unsaved and rebel against the Lord as Satan is released and hooks them in.

   Also, it seems to me the Earthly Mt. Zion and the rebuilt Temple will take center stage in the Mill Kingdom, after the 1000 year reign and the sinners and death is done away with, the Heavenly Jerusalem will be the “jewel” everyone will have access to. During the Mill Kingdom the Churches abode will be the Heavenly, but as population increases and we are needed we will commute back and forth, most likely on a Chariot of living creatures, or the back of a living creature! (Ps 18:7-15) At least this is how I picture it. 🙂

8. One comment I saw online points out that pre and mid tribulation timing are “pre-wrath” also, but differ on where God’s wrath starts, so “pre-wrath” is kind of a vague doctrine, in my opinion. John Shorey has a book, The Window Of The Lord’s Return which, if you can get past the title, has a good large section on the scriptural basis for the rapture timing. The first thing he does is put Revelation into chronological order instead of the order revealed to the Apostle John in his vision. That eliminates much confusion. Then he says he relied on study and guidance from the Holy Spirit over a long period of time, which may be better than pure intellectualism – even using scripture, to come up with his conclusions. He says he started out believing in the pre-trib but ended up being convinced of the mid-trib rapture, and discusses the positive arguments and drawbacks of each of the major groups in an understandable way, to me. John interjects more of his personal opinions elsewhere in the book that I have some questions about, but it is worth getting the book for the tribulation timing aspect alone, in my opinion. I like Joel’s conclusions better in many areas, but am glad to be exposed to different ideas in case it doesn’t go down the way I think it will. Much too much power packed material in John Shorey’s book to even start into it here. And no, I don’t get a commission on his book sales.

9. Hey Taylor,
   If you want to find out what the Pre-Wrath rapture is really about, you ought to get “The Rapture Question Answered”, by Robert Van Kampen, or “Prewrath A very short Introduction”, by the guy on the Video, Alan Kurschner. 🙂 These are good works that explain it.

   I looked at Shorey’.s website and I don’t think he understands the Pre-Wrath 100%., I also don’t like date setters, but he does have good info that most Pre-Wrath teachers already understand. He is right in believing conditions are ripe for things to start happening though. I always keep an eye on Israel and watch for the Temple and sacrifices to start taking place. Then it could be very close, IMO.

   Let me dust my brain off here, because it’s been awhile since I’ve been in end times mode. :)… The thing to understand is the Great Tribulation does not start until the middle of the 70th week.-when Satan is kicked out of heaven and gets really mad. If you read Rev 12:7-13, you will see he is given power for only 3.5 years (42 months). The event that kicks this all this off is the deadly head wound, and then him going into the Temple and showing himself to be greater than the God of the Temple- after a resurrection it looks like. Satan then indwelling this man, IMO, and making everyone who is not a true believer, believe in him-at least those who have denied the gospel. (Mat 24:15-26, 2nd Thes 2). This corresponds with roughly the 4th seal being opened, IMO, because in the 5th seal they are asking how much longer! This is something it took me awhile to discern.

   The point that Jesus makes,- and Van Kampen points out nicely, is the great tribulation is “cut short” (verse 22), and the signs in the Sun, Moon, and Stars, will signify this with the final sign being the Lord Himself splitting the garment of heaven- in between the 2nd and 3rd heaven, or opening up of a portal in sci-fi terms. 🙂 Then His glory being revealed to all flesh. This kicks off the Day of The Lord (Rev 6:12-7, and all the living Saints will be raptured then on that very same day-the ones who survived according to His plan. Then the 7th seal gets opened which contains all the judgement of God-trumpets and bowels, as the Earth holds their collective breath for what is coming next. (Zech 2:13)

   The Trumpets and Bowels take place over only about 1 year. I say this with a pretty high confidence because of this Scripture. (Isa 34:1-8) It’s payback time! 🙂

   If you get the books, it will be clearer. It takes time to study out and meditate on. I didn’t change my viewpoint in one day, it took months, even years of God and the Scripture working on me. But I believe the Pre-Wrath viewpoint- when properly understood, is about as close as we are going to get to the truth on the second coming. It might not cross every T and dot every I, but it works for me. 🙂

   Thanks for listening!

10. Spot on Philip.

11. Joel, could you recommend a Bible commentary on the book of Revelation that follows the pre wrath ideology?
    Thanks!

12. Joel-

    Comment (really a disguised question) about the trumpet passages you read in the middle….

    One of the Pauline passages you read said “at the last trumpet” – but the 7th trumpet passage of Revelation you read would occur after the last trumpet if one believes the Pre-Wrath view. (?)

13. WHAT IS THE “LAST TRUMPET?” see Nelson Walters exploration of this question ……
    http://www.thegospelintheendtimes.com/the-rapture/what-is-the-last-trumpet/

14. Nice Roland! Liked that link. 🙂 Might have to check that book out.

    I like Exodus 19:18-19…”and the Lord called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up. ” A great picture of the trumpet of God and the voice of the Lord calling us up at the last trump. 🙂

    Also, here is a good article that I believe speaks to Rev 20, better than I can articulate it, because this was a stumbling block to me when I was holding to the Post-Trib position. John does this a lot in the Book of Revelation-it seems, and that is why I believe there is confusion as to the chronology of the book and when things take place in relation to the end time events spoken of in other books of the bible. https://theorangemailmanmyblog.wordpress.com/2014/03/25/the-first-resurrection-timing-often-misunderstood/

    This is off topic- but this could be happening in Rev 21 too, with the new Heaven and new Earth starting -in reality, after the day of the Lord and at the start of the mill kingdom. If the high mountain John is taken to is where the future millennial Temple will be, that is why he don’t mention it. He then is describing the heavenly city that will be visible and present above the earth during the 1000 year reign-where of course our abode will be. ( John 14:1-4 ) Notice he sees it from below first, then is in it. And the obvious, it is never shown as touching down on the Earth-which would preserve all the culture (and geological features) built during the 1000 year reign.

    The reason I say this are these key verses. ( Hag 2:6-9, Heb. 12:26-29, 2nd Pet 3:10-13). They all speak of when the Day of the Lord judgement is done, it will truly be done, and the Kingdom will have no end. No more doing it again after the 1000 years, only the second resurrection-and doing away with death will take place then at the end, with only minor tweaks, and the heavenly city possibly sitting down on the Earth then. I’ve been meditating on this for a long time. 🙂

    Love the discussions here! This is a great web-site Joel, and I got a couple of your books coming today from Amazon. Can’t wait to start them! 🙂

15. What does it mean, on earth as it is in heaven?

16. Joel,

    Finally getting around to listen to this edition of the Underground.

    Kurschner is correct in noting that the NIV 2011’s translation of “took them all away,” in Matthew 24:39, is potentially misleading in that it suggests that the verb for “took” here is the same as the “taken” in Matthew 24:40-41. So, the ESV is more straightforward by translating Matthew 24:39 as “swept them all away,” a different verb.

    But when Kurschner then appeals to Matthew 24:31, in that God will “gather his elect,” to indicate a parallel in Matthew 24:40-41, suggesting that it will be the righteous who are taken, and the wicked left behind, he runs into the identical problem.

    To complain that the NIV is misleading, because the verbs are different between verses 40-41 and verse 39, and then to go ahead make the same assumption, that verses 40-41 are parallel to verse 31, even though the verbs THERE are different, is simply unconvincing. Kurschner has to make a lot of exegetical moves to get to where he wants to go.

    Benjamin Merkle has already pretty well covered this approach that Kurschner is trying to make. Merkle contends that the more straight forward parallel can be found in the Parable of the Weeds, focusing on Matthew 13:30, where it is the weeds that will be gathered first to be burned, leaving behind the wheat, to be gathered later. This would affirm the idea in Matthew 24, that it will be the wicked who will be taken first, in judgment, leaving behind the righteous. Merkle avoids succumbing to a potential word study fallacy, by looking at the broader context of a repeated theme in Matthew, about how God will deal with his elect, in the context of the judgment of the wicked.

    http://www.michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/Who%20will%20be%20Left%20Behind%20Rethinking%20Matt%2024%20WTJ.pdf

    Kürschner (and others) might have a stronger case if Matthew 24:31 mentioned the judgment of the wicked. But because v. 31 only mentions the gathering of the elect, the parallel that Kurschner is pushing for becomes a stretch.

    Possible?? Well, maybe. But the probability factor declines once you consider more evidence.

    Considering what has been given here, I would still rather be “Left Behind.”

    I do not have a horse in this race. But it is bothersome when someone tries to make an argument that lends its rather easily to a more plain reading of Scripture, that might cause a less informed reader to eventually conclude that the Scripture is contradicting itself.

    There are good reasons to consider a pre-trib or pre-wrath view of the Rapture, but I would stay away from Matthew 24 to make such a case.

    Joel, you are a smart guy, and I appreciate how you are willing to rethink a previously held position, for the sake of biblical fidelity. If I can only convince you to be a bit more cautious about the whole Jebel al-Lawz in Saudi Arabia as Sinai business, then I would feel better. You need to get Michael Heiser on your program to discuss more. Peer reviewed scholarship is not such a bad thing, brother.