37 Responses

1. Preterists have forced “this generation” out of it’s immediate context. When you see “all these things”, the generation that begins seeing the signs will not pass away before all these signs are completed. It’s illustrated by the fig tree, in that immediate context. The leaves coming out is the beginning of the rebirth of Israel. The generation that sees Israel become a nation will not pass away until “all these things” (signs) in Matthew 24 are completed. It’s the baby-boom generation. These signs are the birth-pains of the woman (verse 8). From Isaiah 26:17-19, we learn that the woman is Israel and the birth is the resurrection. Therefore, the birth-pains could not have begun before Israel became a nation. “All these things” are signs which began with Israel becoming a nation. The immediate context of “this generation” is the generation that sees Israel become a nation.

2. Felt like I was in a quality bible study with you both. Thanks for this topic and relating it to the WHOLE of scripture, old and new testament relationship to each other.

3. Meaning no disrespect to the gentleman posting above, the generation of which Jesus speaks is not the generation that sees the signs begin to come to pass. It is the generation that sees ALL these things come to pass. In verse 33 of Matthew 24, Jesus says, “So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!”

   Therefore, while Jewish presence in the land is certainly required for the fulfillment of the prophecy, this presence could go on for quite some time. It is only after all the events of Matthew 24 up to and including verse 29 come to pass that the sign of the Son of Man will appear. This means that preterism is indeed false, but so also is any attempt at date-setting based on the calculation of the length of a generation. It is not the generation that sees some signs, but all of them. Nor is there anything in the text which specifically ties the fig tree to Israel. This is a complete myth which has been used to support many of the date-setting crazes of the past generation. Jesus’ discussion of the fig tree is a parable –– by His explicit words!

4. Excellent show! I bought the book when you first twittered it. I am enjoying reading it. Just wondering how the preterists argue that all these things have happened if Jesus hasn’t come back yet. Matthew 24 ends with the second coming of Jesus. If this has all happened already, as the preterists argue, I guess I missed His second coming!

5. Dear Joel,

   I have commented many times on your site. This is a huge issue to me and appreciate Hollett’s input. As a counselor, I was exposed to Jay Adam’s input sometime ago in Christian counseling and guidance toward being more biblical but it really troubled me in terms his perspectives on preterism. He has a great influence on Christian counselors in the field but far too often counselors in the field don’t plug through theology and the Hebraic orientation of the Bible while they are getting their degree. The seminary I went through challenged you to get a sound theology background established before getting state certified. I would like to see Hollett call up Jay Adams and challenge him to a debate. Do you think he might consider this?

6. Jesus IS sitting on the throne of David!! This is not for the future 🙂

   “All authority in heaven and on the earth has been given to Me.” Matthew 28:18

   Just as David was not recognized as king of Israel for many years since being anointed by Samuel, Jesus is very unrecognized, even by many of his own.

   There has been a persistent influence to diminish Jesus over the last 2000 years, to no avail!

7. George,

   Jesus, “having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET” (Hebrews 10:12-13). This does not happen until after He returns and treads the winepress of the wrath of God Almighty. He is not on the throne of David yet. The Throne of Davis is also called, “His glorious throne” (Matthew 19). In Matthew 25, it says that he has yet to return “in His glory, and all the angels with Him.” So is most certainly not yet sitting on “His glorious throne”:

   And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Mat 19:28)

   But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats… (Mat 25:31-32)

   The statement, “All authority in heaven and on the earth has been given to Me” is frequently misunderstood. Jesus is essentially saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me (to judge the living and the dead.) IN light of that, go preach the Gospel, and until the day when I come and judge the dead, I will be with you”. But as we have already seen, the kingdom is not here yet.

   Blessings,
   Joel

8. This was a great episode, Joel. Thank you for all the work you do to clarify the word of God. I look forward to all your videos.

   I was listening to Chuck Missler’s commentary on the Olivet Discourse recently, and I found what he said interesting. I was wondering if you were familiar with it, and if so what you thought about his viewpoint.

   You are probably aware of it, but just in case, this is his teaching in a nutshell (or at least my understanding of it):

   He taught that Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are referring to a different generation than Luke 21.

   His support for this is that Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is a private conversation between Jesus and the disciples (Matt 24:3) on the Mount of Olives in the evening (Luke 21:37) where Jesus was teaching about what is to occur AFTER the tribulation in the last days (the generation of the last days) (Matt 24:29). (see scriptures below)

   In Luke 21, Jesus was speaking to a crowd of people in the temple in the morning (Luke 21:37) and was referring to things that would happen BEFORE the tribulation (within the generation of the crowd he was addressing). This is stated in verse 12 when it says BEFORE ALL THESE.

   Matthew 24:3 – And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the DISCIPLES came unto him PRIVATELY
   Matthew 24:29 – Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days
   Luke 21:37-38 – And in the DAY TIME he was teaching IN THE TEMPLE; and AT NIGHT he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the MOUNT OF OLIVES. AND ALL
   THE PEOPLE CAME EARLY IN THE MORNING to him IN THE TEMPLE, for to hear him.
   Luke 21:12 – BUT BEFORE ALL THESE, they shall lay their hands on you…

   So, Missler’s view is that two different generations are being discussed here. In Luke when Jesus is addressing the crowd he is talking about the events BEFORE the birth pains and warning the crowd what to do when they see the armies approaching. This happened in 70 AD. So, Jesus was correct when he said that generation would not pass away until all those things are fulfilled because he was talking about the generation that would see the signs BEFORE the birth pains. In Matthew, Jesus was addressing the disciples privately and discussing the end-time generation after the tribulation. So he was correct here, too, when he said that this generation won’t pass away until all these things are fulfilled. Two different generations, two different time periods.

   I haven’t researched if other bible scholars/teachers agree with him, so I don’t know if other people have a similar teaching. I was just wondering if you have run across this before and what you think about it. Seems like it clears up this dispute about which generation Jesus was talking about, but I am interested to know if there are issues with this theory that should be considered.

9. The sermons in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are the same sermon word for word with very minor differences. I love Chuck but would disagree on this.

10. The problem seems to consistently come when emphasis is given to passages regarding the presence of the kingdom now to the exclusion of those passages which speak of the future kingdom or vice versa. The kingdom of God is among you compared to I shall never again eat of it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God. Even in the parables of the kingdom it is seed sown or leaven which is present but growing into something greater. Interesting to note is evil and good both grow to maturity until the harvest which Jesus calls the end of the age. Then evil is removed in a revealed new kingdom reality. In the Gospel accounts where Jesus says there are some of you standing here who shall see My “Parousia “ in My Kingdom. The very next verse in all three gospels begins the account of the transfiguration. Then In IIPeter 1, Peter says we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the “Parousia “ but were eyewitnesses…. and then describes what happened on the transfiguration mount when they heard the Father’s declaration from heaven. Why can’t we let the context of this passage and Jesus and Peter define the Parousia they would see, rather than us define the Parousia and then try to figure out the way it happened. Probably someone without too much theological training could look at that passage and say, hey look, they saw Jesus in His Kingdom power, transfigured before them, standing with Moses and Elijah. Maybe it’s too simple. The sad thing to see for my preterist brethren is they are unable to marvel in the fulfillment of prophecy taking place before our eyes, especially in regards to Jerusalem, because to them everything has been fulfilled and what we see is not God’s revelation unfolding. It has all been fulfilled in 70 A.D. or metaphorically. It is also dangerous if we believe God is done with physical Israel and He is not and we find ourselves standing and railing against the Jews and Jerusalem with the surrounding nations , when He comes to set His foot on the Mt. of Olives and rescue Israel in the midst of its devastation.

11. I really enjoyed the discussion. Hope you do a couple more. I always learn something. Thanks again!

12. Hi Joel,

    Great discussion, and an important one. We constantly face those believers who are even pre-millennial doctrinally, but almost preterist practically.

    Jesus said that He did not come to annul the Law and the Prophets, but to fulfill them — every jot and tittle! There are still lots of jots and tittles, and sometimes even whole passages, that are yet to be fulfilled from the Law and the Prophets. So there is the partial fulfillment during “interim” times for a good number of prophecies, which also look to the last days and the time of the end, for their full-filment of all the details given in the prophecies, and the results of those judgments and of the promises for redemption to those who do repent and return to the LORD.

    Bless you, and I know that you will be over in Israel next week, but we will miss each other this time.
    Shalom.

13. Joel,

    If I may …. you say that the Kingdom is not here yet? I’m not a preterist, but Jesus has already established the Kingdom in a way that does not satisfy people’s craving for outward appearances, “…behold the Kingdom of God is within you” Luke 17:21

    Jesus is on His throne seated at the right hand of the Father – His power is not diminished, for by Him “all things hold together” Colossians 1:17, and not just limited to judging the living and the dead. His desire is that we may be with Him where He is that we may behold His Sovereign Glory. (John 17:24). Nothing happens here, in His jurisdiction, without His permission for a short season.

    As you correctly state He is waiting for his enemies to be made a footstool, implying that He is already seated on His throne – the major reality is already perfectly secure. In other areas we press on to perfection.

    “… the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit” Romans 14:17. We express that kingdom as lights in this dark corner, by partaking in His nature which is presently available to repentant sinners!

    Jesus speaks about the pharisaical experts seeking life in the Scriptures but not coming to Him that they may have Life! (John 5:40)

    In John 16:14 it says “He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and WILL DISCLOSE TO YOU.” This glorified king whom we belong to has promised to disclose things to us – not the kind of stuff that so many people seek after to carnally gratify their curiosity, but those things pertaining to His overflowing glory! Yes we wait for certain mopping up operations, but that of supreme importance can already be enjoyed, in the One ruling from His seated position on the throne. Let’s “seek the things above, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God.” Colossians 3:1

    thank you 🙂

14. So I assume you acknowledge that indeed He is not yet on the Throne of David after all?

    The verse, “The Kingdom of God is within you” is only found in the KJV, is a poor translation, and is widely misunderstood. See John Harrigan’s excellent explanation of this:

    https://joelstrumpet.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/10_-_appendix_an_analysis_of_passages_commonly_associated_with_realized_eschatology.pdf

    We presently have the Holy Spirit. This is a downpayment, a deposit, a guarantee, of that which is to come. It is as good as done, but still not yet.

    BLessings,
    Joel

15. On the contrary Joel 🙂

    I do not believe a literalist position, some may imagine, that the throne of David is some wooden remnant from an archaeological dig in Mount Zion, which gets patched up for earth dwellers to admire! There is an eternal spiritual meaning to “the throne of David”. I believe He’s fully enthroned, without going into footstools.

    With no disrespect, regarding your understanding of “the kingdom of God within you”, it does appear in other translations in like manner and compares favorably with the position Paul understood when he referred to; “I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you” Galatians 4:19.

    We have different perspectives.

    Blessings to you too.

    George

16. What then is his glorious throne that He has yet to return to sit on? Anything apart from the Throne of David has not biblical context.

17. Hi Brother Joel,
    Thank you for the program. There is so much to learn. The link you provided (by Brother John Harrigan) is pretty awesome, which makes me wonder what book it is from. Is it from “The Gospel of Christ crucified a Theology of suffering before glory”? I recommend everyone get that book by the way. Take care Brother Joel.

18. Jesus is the Glory of Israel to whom He is returning. Praise is the throne on which God sits – Psalm 22:3 David was very well acquainted with this glorious throne. As we surrender and yield in worship, we realize Christ’s perfect enthronement within, as an ever-present reality.

    shalom aleichem

19. I’m sure Origen would appreciate such an answer. Unfortunately, David’s throne was never in heaven. Therefore its restoration will not be in heaven. Making such arbitrary claims that spiritualize away the very literal, and repeated statements throughout Scripture is just plain bad hermeneutics. In the same way that your body will be literally healed when He returns, so also will His throne be literally reestablished. As there is no resurrection with a perfect body, so also is there no Kingdom without a literal restored Kingdom of Israel.

    “The Lord also declares to you that the Lord will make a house for you. When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever . . . Your house and your kingdom shall endure before Me forever; your throne shall be established forever.”
    (2 Samuel 7:11–16)

    Jesus is coming back to rule from Zion:

    the Lord will stretch forth your strong scepter from Zion, saying, ‘Rule in the midst of Your enemies’”… The Lord is at your right hand; he will crush kings on the day of his wrath. He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead and crushing the rulers of the whole earth. (Psalm 110:1-2,5-6)

    For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us, and the government will rest on His shoulders; and His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this. (Isaiah 9:6–7)

    The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.” (Luke 1:30-33)

20. Yes.

21. Yes plus, Joel! I much prefer the rendering; “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name IS called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.” Isaiah 9:6

    Just like I enjoy His timeless Presence in John 8:58 “… before there was an Abraham, I AM!”

    We can be stuck in a time zone mentality and miss this LIFE Who is revealed to His bond-servants.

    From an earthly perspective, there is a lot of returning going on, people to a land; Hebrew to the streets of Jerusalem; people to the Lord; people to one another; the Lord to Jerusalem – and yet we have a Lamb slain from the foundations of the world. He is the Resurrection, before the cross!

    Yes again, from an earth dwellers perspective, Jesus the Man has been promised “the throne of His father David”, (not a wooden throne). But Jesus, “Mighty God” is high and lifted up and enthroned with greater than David’s earthly physical throne, because all things are given to Him. Heaven is not vacated when Jesus puts His feet on the Mount of Olives.

    We cannot receive anything (spiritual) unless it comes from Above.

    Good News, overwhelmingly unrecognized for a season!
    Jesus IS the King and the Glory of Israel! 🙂

22. The biblical Hebrew mindset is very simple. This age is moving in a direction, toward a very specific and appointed Day. It is called the Day of the Lord, the Day of Christ Jesus. At that time, Jesus will return on the clouds with all of His holy ones. That has not yet happened. After this, He will restore the Kingdom to Israel (Acts 1). When the Kingdom is restored, the throne of David will likewise be restored. There is no need to make this into some gentile gnostic nebulous spiritualized mystical reality. To do so is a clear distortion of actual biblical hope. Jesus is not yet on the throne of David. The Kingdom of Israel has not yet been restored according to the Word of the Lord. This is not to deny that we have the Holy Spirit which is a guarantee of what is to come, but to infer it is all done now is to radically misplace biblical hope and expectation.

23. Bless you Joel.

24. N H Peters nailed it a long time ago ……. but it takes a lot of perseverance to read 2,000 plus pages of eighteen century english……….. “The taking possession of His own inheritance, as David’s Son involves His personal Coming. The Davidic Tabernacle is His personal inheritance, and the restoration of this, now ruined, tabernacle is the grand theme of The Millenial predictions. To separate the Inheritor from His inheritance is opposed to the entire spirit of expressed Covenant and Prophecy.
    ………Yet, alas multitudes take such a position, and have an inheritance without the personal presence of the Inheritor, a marriage with the bridegroom absent, a kingdom without a visible king, a millenium without the restorers presence & work, all to avoid the conversion & restoration of the Jewish nation as inseparably united with the personal advent of the Messiah.”
    ‘The Theocratic Kingdom…’ G. N. H. PETERS: Volume 2, Proposition 121, Obs.55:14

25. Amen. Agree. I have all three volumes. The best.

26. Just for the record Joel, I am not a gnostic. Jesus is sitting on the throne of David and He was received openly by the simple folk in Jerusalem, who recognized Him as the King of Israel, in the Triumphal Entry, even though He didn’t arrive in a limousine. The stones on the ground were ready to cry out! He didn’t need to present His credentials to the priests after He was resurrected, showing Himself to His own. God’s way is not man’s way.

    Just as He was missed by many, in those days, as the Savior from their sins while they expected a military deliverer, He is being missed by many of His own today. People mainly accept Him as forgiver but not Savior from their sins, which requires taking up our own cross and ceasing with our own wills in favor of His rulership!

    “Dominion belongs to the Lord and He rules over the nations” Psalm 22:28. While His kingdom is not of this world, He is ruling, He is sovereign and He enjoys jurisdiction over Israel.

27. To say that the throne of David is spiritual is a gnostic construct for which there is no Scripture. Its a foreign concept to the biblical worldview.

28. Joel, your accusation of ‘gnostic construct’ is groundless.

    I could be similarly accused if I stated “faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen” or “blessed are those who believe, yet do not see”, if those statements were not anchored in Scripture.

    Our understanding of Scripture is not based on human empirical reasoning, where the intellect is admired amongst some elite clergymen. How wonderful Jesus was able to use fishermen, when the Holy Spirit was able to open the eyes of understanding and embolden. Don’t confuse His critical involvement in teaching us the truth from the Bible and disclosing what is hidden, with some esoteric fakery.

    Thank you.

29. My elderly father has always been a fisherman and I am the son of a fisherman. We are both very good at seeing through nonsense. When the Lord says that He will restore the Kingdom of Israel and restore the Throne of David, and someone else says that he is not literally going to keep his word, I call baloney. My statement is anything but groundless. I am simply accepting the word of God at face value. You are entitled to your opinions, but you are not entitled to twist the word of God.

30. Thank you for the show Joel. It was a good one and very informative. I will probably have to find that book so that I can better debate the point. So it looks like Erdogan is the dictator of Turkey now for at least 6 years. It will be interesting to see how that plays out and how far Turkey goes now into Syria to push back against Iran.

31. Hi Joel, the digital book doesn’t seem to be available on Amazon, either US or Australian sites, any other possibilities?
    cheers Carole

32. Debunking Preterism book, that is 🙂

33. Thanks, Joel, for posting this interview. It is a useful contribution to an important discussion.

    The problem I see with the presentation with Brock Hollett is that it failed to adequately distinguish between full-preterism and partial-preterism. There is a world of difference between a Don Preston (full preterist) and an R. C. Sproul (partial preterist).

    This idea is that the resurrection of the dead happened in the first century A.D. is not something that R. C. Sproul would have ever advocated, though it is a feature of full preterism. In my understanding, the full preterist idea of resurrection is one of the main reasons why people like Sam Frost eventually left full preterism, but who still consider themselves partial preterists.. You probably owe it to your listeners to more clearly explain that.

    I know that a future, premillennial fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant, for national ethnic Israel is really important to you. But partial preterism is not inherently opposed to such elements of futurism (though most are, point conceded).

    What drives the interest in partial preterism is more about Christian apologetics, as opposed to trying to defend an Israel-centric view of futurism. When you have folks like Bart Ehrman saying that Jesus was wrong about predicting his return, in the Olivet Discourse, this has a far greater impact in making an obstacle for Christian faith, than does pondering specific details about the future, literal fulfillment of promises to national, ethnic Israel.

    It does not mean that your concerns about Israel do not matter. Scholars like Gerald McDermott make a good case for affirming a future for national ethnic Israel, without clinging to a lot of the dispensationalist baggage that drives people into full preterism.

    Anyway, thank you for your thoughtful dialogue here. I would just encourage you not to completely throw partial preterists, like R. C. Sproul, completely under the bus.

34. Does anyone know where I can get a MP3 of this cast?
    Thanks!!!

35. Joel;

    You are a trusted source. I sent for the book. Nuff said. I don’t think Jesus returned in 70 A.D. !!!! Where was the time worse than ever before? When were the ten kings in SIMULTANEOUS (not sequential at with the Caesars of Rome) agreement mentioned in Revelation? When did the asleep in Christ rise to wake before those who were living? I can’t wait to read the book. Thanks so much for being a trusted source. The only books I buy any more are the ones you recommend! I look to my right and I see One King, The Unseen Realm, Reversing Hermon, and every book you ever wrote with all your DVD’s and many others you have recommended. I love the position you take and also the humility with which you put forth your arguments. I am starting to teach a position I am calling the “Noble “Grafted In” Middle position and have started putting it to paper. It is from Acts 17:11, Romans 11, Eph. 2:12-3:13 and the Middle is all your stuff. It holds to a position that does not replace Israel by creating by the Covenant guys and it does not absolutely isolate the Church from Israel as the Dispensationalists do. It is basically a combination of the progressive, pre-wrath and Premillennial positions all wrapped with the idea of hold the context of the Hebrew Prophets intact. The doctrines of the church, Gospel, missions and end times are all different from traditional takes. Not advertising at all, just trying to impress on you the importance of your work to the rest of us and to those who have ears to hear and eyes to see. I really appreciate you and your ministry. Praying for you and your family, especially those specific ones you asked me to pray about in your response to my email. If you find time please pray for me also as I am wanting to start preaching again in churches if the Lord wills and He will open the door… I would greatly appreciate prayers for this. I am reading Daniel chapter 2 today. Only God can reveal certain things to certain people at certain times and when He does it is critical to get it right.

36. Hi Joel I met you at in his presence ministry in Houston a while back. Joel my kids just started going to a church that teaches this and they are adamant it is truth and I am finding out more and more it’s a lie from the enemy! They just came back to the lord a few years ago and we’re on fire and now this happened any suggestions on how to pray or talk to them I will buy that book!

37. Rosemary,

    It’s certainly not worth fighting with your kids over. If you can talk to them gently, however, and they are open, that I would encourage them to read my book When a Jew Rules the World. It’s very helpful.