3 Responses

1. Joel,

   Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I especially liked your opinion on Preterism. Christians who don’t place all their reliance on Yeshua are susceptible to theories that don’t place them in difficult or dangerous situations. Understanding you may have to face the tribulation or the Antichrist causes one to realize all you do have is God and leads one to live accordingly. Such theories are dangerous because they don’t encourage “watching and praying” for the Day as we are commanded.

   Jim

2. Enjoyed the webcast. It’s very encouraging to feel Judaism and Christianity growing closer and combining more in these days.

3. Joel, “By ‘common usage’ I am referring to its common usage according to Greek Lexicons.

   the pain of childbirth, travail pain, birth pangs
   intolerable anguish, in reference to the dire calamities precede the advent of the Messiah

   Appealing to the exception of common usage as an argument for understanding a word is a faulty argument.

   Hi brother, my previous comments regarding ōdin may not have been referring to “the pain of childbirth” but were, however, referring to the “interolerable anguish” that Christ said His followers would witness during the times in which multiple nations and kingdoms are rising against each other, multiple wars are being waged and threatened, multiple famines are experienced, multiple pestilences and other natural disasters shake the earth, all of which precede the Second Coming. As such, I was appealing not to the exception, but to common usage as well. Christ’s descriptions here are a number of multiplicities which, in my opinion, certainly seem to suggest that we’re dealing with more than just a few relatively short years prior to His return.

   Joel, “your reference to Acts is referring to the ‘pangs’ of death and not simply ‘sorrows’.”

   Pains of death, yes, but not birth pains of death.

   Joel, “However to believe that the Bible would predict every significant event between then and now is a significant mistake.”

   I’m not saying that the Seals of Revelation predicts every significant event, but that they rather provide us with a general overview of the “birth” of the eschatonic Beast (the Islamic Empire) from which the Antichrist arises and its overall effect upon the people of God prior to the Second Advent. For instance:

   * In the 1st Seal the rider of the white horse is given a false crown of authority. Islamic scholars characterize the “prophet” Mohammed as the “Possessor of the Crown” and “the crown of all creation.” Islamic lecturer Ahmed Deedat even says that Mohammed was a “king” because a king “is a person who has the power of life and death over his people. It is immaterial whether the person wears a crown or not, or whether he was ever addressed as king or monarch – if the man [Mohammed] has the prerogative of inflicting capital punishment – He is a King.” Of course, he was given a false crown of authority because he was a false prophet.

   * In the 2nd Seal we have a red horse rider given a great sword who takes peace from the earth. This is precisely how Islam was spread, through Jihad, the Sword of Islam. As long as Islam has existed, it has never known peace (and will never know peace).

   * With the 3rd Seal we have a black horse with balances bringing famine. John uses the Greek word “zygos” when referring to “balances”, a word that is used metaphorically to refer to any sort of “burden” or “bondage” as well as the imposition of “troublesome laws.” Because of the burden of “Sharia lawlessness” Islam is typified by widespread destruction and disparity, which has produced and continues to produce the type of conditions that precipitate and perpetuate all sort of pestilences, all manner of plagues, famines, any number of conflicts and hardships both inside and outside the Islamic world.

   * With the 4th Seal we have pale (literally green) horse ridden by death and followed by hell. As you know, green is the traditional/official color of Islam. This rider has power over the 1/4th part of the earth. It is no coincidence that today Islam now has dominion over 25% of the earth’s population. He has the power to “kill with sword.” Islam is spread through Jihad, the “Sword of Islam.” He also kills with hunger/famine. Where Islam rises, deprivation and Sharia lawlessness quickly follows, so much so that they would even prefer to see children starve to death than to see them receive life-saving aid from the “Christian West.” He kills with “death”, and the love of death and martyrdom for the cause of “Allah” permeates Islamic culture to the point where Islamists will even openly declare that they “love death more than you love life.” He is even described as killing with “the beasts of the earth.” The Greek word for beasts is “thērion” and is very likely being used metaphorically as well to refer to “savage”, “brutal” and “bestial” men — a perfect description of what we are witnessing today in the radical world of Islam’s death seekers.

   So although it does not describe every significant event, it does give us a perfect overview of the eschatonic Beast of Daniel and Revelation — the Islamic empire. All four “horsemen” are now unsealed and riding upon the earth, essentially all encapsulated as it were in the 4th horseman itself.

   Joel, “I certainly think that the futurist (Day of the Lord centric) view is always going to be the primary and ultimate meaning.”

   I agree brother! However, this does not negate the fact that the seals are a perfect description of the Islamic beast from its sordid beginnings to its fiery end on the Day of the Lord.

   Joel, “I can assure you that birth pains come at the end, not throughout the pregnancy. The Bible always uses very earthy analogies that everyone can understand.”

   Point taken, however, ōdin doesn’t only refer to pains of childbirth, as evidenced in Acts 2:24. This is precisely why many Bible translators chose not to call them “birth pains” at all in Matthew 24:8.

   God bless brother, I enjoy our discussions. 🙂