Well, here we go. The announcement of the resignation of Pope Benedict was caused somewhat of an explosion with the prophecy-sphere of eschatological conspiracy-theorizing and speculation. What of St. Malachy’s prophecy? Does this mean the final pope is here? How did the authors of Petrus Romanus know that the Pope would resign?
The answer to these questions is as follows: St. Malachy’s prophecy is a proven fraud. The next pope is not likely to be the final pope. And for well over two years now, long before Petrus Romanus was written, there has been talk of the Pope resigning. See for example here, where there was public talk of his resignation as late 2011. In fact, Benedict’s brother, George Ratzinger, also a priest, suggested last year that the Pope might retire at age 85. And Benedict, himself even made a case for papal resignation in a book titled, “Light of the World” published back in 2010. Despite the bold claims of the authors of Petrus Romanus, nowhere in the book do they ever actually predict the Pope would resign. What they do (see page 59) is simply cite some of the previous discussions that were in the news concerning the Pope stepping down, and strongly speculate that this might take place in 2012. 2012 of course, was the target date set by the authors for the revealing of the Antichrist or the False Prophet. Next on their agenda: To show how the Vatican is planning on ushering in an alien Antichrist.
I want to be clear that my point is not to personally attack the authors of these works, but to simply call on responsible Christians not to engage in the kind of silly and rampant speculation that revolves almost entirely around conspiracy theories, sectarian polemics, and extra-Biblical pseudo-prophecies. It truly saddens me to see so many widely known prophecy teachers openly support the theories in these books. Along these lines, an interesting observation was made by my friend Ray Gano of Prophezine. Gano pointed out that virtually all of the more well known prophecy teachers who are supporting the Petrus Romanus theory are pre-tribulationalists. Now think this through. Pre-tribulational Dispensationalism has always been firm that the Antichrist and False Prophet will not be revealed before the rapture. Now, the next Pope, which they are claiming will be the False Prophet of Revelation 13, is said to be installed as soon as next month. So if the Pope is installed, then either he is not the False Prophet, or the rapture is not pre-tribulational. Take your pick. It seems that many of these pre-tribulational supporters of the Petrus Romanus theory have cast themselves into a genuinely sticky wicket.
In conclusion, my appeal again to all who read this blog, is to please be responsible Christians. The urgency of the hour demands sobriety, not engaging in foolish speculations.
The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray. Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. —1 Peter 4:7-8
69 Responses
Joel,
I completely affirm your position here. It is careless at best and heretical at worst to develop an eschatological position based primarily on “conspiracy theories, sectarian polemics, and extra-Biblical pseudo-prophecies.” I also see the clear connection between pre-tribulation dispensationalism and a “revived” Roman empire/antichrist figure etc…
I am firmly convinced from the Scriptures that the antichrist will be of middle-eastern (Turkish) descent, which likely means he will be Muslim. But I do have a few questions.
Have you seen a syncretistic relationship develop between Islam and Roman Catholicism? Is it possible that the papacy and Rome will compromise by embracing Islam and including it within its view of orthodoxy? And if so, could it be possible that the false prophet is a Roman Catholic figure who leads nominal Christians astray in the great apostasy into some sort of universal conglomeration of one world religion (under Islam)?
Curious of your thoughts here.
All other things aside, I’m surprised to learn that Peter the Roman is being proclaimed as an anti-Christ by these individuals promoting their books. Everything I’ve read on this over the years seems to indicate that this ” last pope” will be a comforter to his flock in times of tribulation. I wonder if this alien pope conspiracy you spoke of Joel, is the work of Giorgio A. Tsoukalos, another of my favorite frauds.
I’m not a dispensationalist nor do I believe in the pre-trib rapture. But to be fair, the dispensationalists consider the signing of the covenant as that which reveals the antichrist. The antichrist could be in power before being revealed. The pope-list might suggest that the false prophet is here. But even Tom Horn would not conclude that he has been revealed. Being revealed by 2 Thess 2 would bring it to the point of no longer being in doubt. There will be suggestions and signs of the antichrist and false prophet before they are conclusively revealed.
Malachy’s list may have been used and altered to promote the election of a pope. But that doesn’t prove it was entirely faked. There is no way to know. The thing that has always interested me about the list is that even if it was fabricated in 1595, when it was published, it’s still a list that ends at a time when many other signs are pointing to the very-soon return of Christ.
Joel – First off, thanks for writing this. I’ve never read Petrus Romanus because it just sounds wack (alien anti-christ what?). But can you expound on why St. Malachy’s prophecy is a “proven fraud”? There is so much weirdness online surrounding it, I would like to hear your opinion.
Also can you explain why Evasio Bertone Peitro, who fits the prophecy of the popes given by St. Malachy, has been criticized for his Islamic sympathies, and has been called out for lying about the third prophecy of fatima which speaks of the great apostasy, isn’t the false prophet? Every single time I engage someone on this, these points are all I hear.
If there is a beastly empire coming that is worse than the Islamic Empire which will produce the Antichrist, then I dread to see it. If we are living in the last days, then an Islamic Antichrist is the only reasonable answer. I feel the Holy Spirit is hard at work to Awaken His Church to this truth. After all the word promises us that when the enemy comes in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord will raise a standard against it ( Is. 59:19b). What say they if the next Pope comes from Africa or the US or South Americia?
Can we get a link to your “St. Malachy’s prophecy is a proven fraud” source. I’m aware that it has been proved that before the 1590s it was tampered with. Thanks!
AMEN to 1 Peter 4:7-8. There is no where else to turn but to The Lord God of Heaven and earth. That is exactly why these horrendous things (to us, but not to Living God)are coming on the face of the earth, so people have no where to turn but to The Lord and there He is waiting for whosoever will to come and REST in His Loving and Open Arms.
STAY READY and LOOK UP! Our redemption in its fullness is drawing nearer and nearer.
Praise and Glory to the God of our Salvation!
Thanks for clearing this up as soon as the news hit. The Pope predictions have been put forth through many Seven-Day Adventist groups as well as television prophecy teachers.
Here, here! Well put, Joel, because a lot of inhumanity is being dished out by those who are convinced they are carrying out the will of Allah.
Phillip,
Hey brother. If one considers the doctrine of imminence, a key foundational sub-doctrine of dispensationalism, most dispensationalists teachers are quite adamant that there are no signs that must precede the rapture. The rapture is viewed as always being “imminent”. So while you are correct to say that for instance the False Prophet could emerge prior to the rapture, if anyone were to say “this is that” then they would be completely violating the official doctrine of imminence. See what I am saying.
Blessings
for those who asked regarding the prophecy of Saint Malachy being a fraud. This is a huge subject and would require a small booklet. There have been numerous scholarly examinations in various languages through the years. First, even the Catholic Church officially believes the prophecy is a forgery. This is not a small matter, as the Catholic Church approaches these things with a fairly scientific approach. But as one poster commented, it is fairly well-established that the entirety of the prophecy prior to 1590 was altered so as to make it appear to be genuinely prophetic. Which leads to the obvious question, if it was necessary to change that which had already past, why then would we even consider that which comes after? If the latter portions are genuinely prophetic, then there would have been no need to tamper with the older info. This is only one issue. There really are many.
I find that when one base any prophecy on undefined cryptic symbols and codes, and so forth, it is quite easy to create the appearance of whatever the conspiratorial mind wishes to find. A sign of the Texas Longhorns quickly becomes the sign of a Satan worshipper… Malachy said of the last Pope: “Gloria Olivae” (Glory of the Olives), and this is supposed to be profound because Ratzinger chose to be called Benedict, and the crest for the Bendictine Order allegedly contains an olive! But this is not true. The Benedictine crest does not contain olives. But wait! The Olivet Order is one (of 20) orders within the larger Benedictine umbrella. And we are supposed to be wowed? Anyway, this stuff can go on and on forever. Personally, I simply cannot waste my time with it. Not when there are so many very real issues staring us in the face that demand our attention. I hope these brief comments have helped some.
Blessings
Marcus,
Many have discussed a syncretistic amalgamation of Islam and Catholicism. In brief, personally, I see no evidence for this. The RCC has always affirmed and even bled and died for the doctrines of the Trinity, the divine incarnation of God in Christ and the reality of the Cross as the central act of all redemptive history. These are all things Islam denies. The RCC has some issues that I certainly disagree with. But I see no way that RCC could “merge” with Islam while remaining Roman Catholic. As for the comments within the RCC Catechism frequently cited as proof that the RCC has sold out to Islam, in my reading it simply says that there is a place in God’s plan of salvation for Muslims, children of Ishmael. Not that they are saved, for this would clearly contradict so many other portions of the catechism, but that God has plans to save those from Ishmael. I agree that this is His heart. But one must also read the many very conservative statements made by both this Pope and the last affirming the many theological problems with Islam. I could pull some out from John Paul II’s book, Crossing the Threshold of Hope where he declares that Islam is wrong in most of its most basic theological assertions. While anything is possible in the future, for now, I see no genuine evidence for this.
Blessings!
Joel,
On the false doctrine of imminence: Was the “fig tree” birth of Israel in 1948 a sign for which dispensationalists would say “this is that”? Yet imminence would argue that the rapture could have occurred before 1948. I think they would allow for additional signs to occur. They just claim that none are required before the rapture.
Of course arguments like this show the problems with the false doctrine of imminence.
Blessings,
Philip
I dont think the malachy prophecy proves that the next pope is the false prophet, it certanily doesnt read tha way, as to its authenticity im skeptical of any extra biblical prophecy but we will see. Personally i think khameni is a great canidate for the false prophet. Revelation describes him as a beast like a lamb but with the voice of a dragon. Daniel describes persia as a ram, so i think the description could be an allusion to Persia , also with an allusion to jesus symbolized as the ram caught in the bush in genesis but in the gospels he is the lamb.
Philip,
Gotcha. Yes, you are right. The issue of the repatriation of Israel, etc is one of the biggest problematic issues for imminence. As if Israel could have been repatriated, within a few years. Yet they will argue this. But you are correct in that they would allow for other signs to come to pass. The AC is somewhat different however, in that it would be quite easy, once identified, to simply watch his actions and see the renewal of the covenant coming. Did you ever connect with Reggie?
Like the film, September Eleven 1683 (2012), which shows the Christians defending Europe against the invading Ottoman Turks (which is a good film btw. I was expecting something like we all worship the same God, but they film made it a point on several occasions to contradict that.) I can’t help wondering if what the Turks tried and failed to do over the centuries, they will succeed to do with the false prophet Isa, that in the great tribulation, they will invade eastern Europe and convert the Churches into Mosques. Of course, Europe is not the focus of the Bible, but Israel and its surrounding nations, but that can’t stop me wondering, as long as I don’t make a doctrine out of it.
Joel,
No, I have heard from Reggie. I don’t have his email either.
Thanks,
Philip
While it appears as though pre-tribulationists are mainly the ones embracing this papal theory, it should be noted that all in this group either ignore or flat out reject an Islamic antichrist which then leads them down these trails in order to make world events fit their mold of a Roman/European antichrist and false prophet.
Coreen,
Many pre-tribbers do recognize the Islamic eschatological paradigm as that which best is represented by Scripture.
Joel, Please explain “the city on 7 hills” is it Jerusalem?
In reading about the Protestant Reformation, the inherited belief of the papacy as an anti-christ system comes out of that time. Baptist landmarkism does not do well to dispel this idea. Catholicism has always had time periods in history where it did produce those who did were dedicated to reforming what they did not like.
Matthew 16:18
The city of seven hills in Malachy’s prophecy or the Book of Revelation? In Malachy’s prophecy (it was not actually his prophecy, only falsely attributed to him), I am sure he was referring to Rome. But in Revelation, it is the city on seven mountains. It refers to the seven historical empires that persecuted Israel. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome and the Islamic Empire.
Joel,
Re: Pre-Tribbers recognizing Islamic eschatology
I agree with you as I am one of them. God bless you and your family abundantly. I pray often for this ministry.
Coreen,
And blessings to you as well. Regardless of which view is correct, we will all be raptured together. Of this I am quite confident. : )
Blessings!
Very good insight Joel. I have finished studying the three chapters you wrote in Mideast Beast on Ez 38 and 39. When someone finally understands what you are saying ALL these little pieces are just so much easier to put together. (meaning I can see why you go crazy ..at least in your mind when you hear endless speculation knowing it is leading people away from the truth that is revealed.) You have answered questions from every angle and from my experience the only way to have an argument from Scripture, on every angle is because some one showed you the “box cover” to the puzzle itself. I would encourage people to see Islam and the Middle East as the “box cover” and all things coming down to one final battle. This will keep them from guessing, speculating and leading other people astray. So many questions that I have had now for at least three years are now much easier to understand. I was not pre trib but I was looking at Revelation and EZ 38 and 39 and wondering why people were not putting certain passages together. So I can say that the “box cover” that the devil is wanting us to see (any moment rapture)looks more like Pearl Harbor, the Tsunami and the World Trade Center. We need to get this shift over to the middle east and suffering for the Kingdom into the minds, hearts and sermons of those who are sitting in the pews of our churches. If we don’t we are in for a huge dose of suffering that could have been avoided. Thanks Joel.. I really respect what you are doing and the INTENSE amount of work you have put towards the discovery of the truth. We know Jesus is in control but I don’t like lies… as they are not from God and add to the confusion. When you freeze the geography in the Bible to those nations surrounding Israel, (meaning dump the Roman European model) things just get easier because it is the “Box Cover” for every other piece to fit one must be looking at the right picture. But you must admit it is amazing when a pope resigns .. I mean come on what is with that 🙂
Joel, I have appreciated your articles, books and commentary on this site for some time now. Sometimes agreeing, sometimes not. In respect to this subject, I could not disagree more. I have read Petrus Romanus and it is both scholarly AND responsible making no claims of fact that Malachy’s prophecies are 100% accurate or if the next Pope is the final pope. I will say that they have obviously put in hundreds of hours of research and study for their 600 page work and I wonder if you have done the same to make the 100% assertion that ” St. Malachy’s prophecy is a proven fraud”. In fact they tackle that subject at great length in the book. The LORD chose to use a wicked, arrogant and Pagan king named Nebuchadnezzar and then used a believer (Daniel) to bring the prophecy to forbearance. Who is to say He can’t use an Irish Priest from 900 years ago? I have no dog in the hunt, but I do think considering these matters is prudent and not at all “silly”. When you say that it is, you are making the accusation that Tom Horn, Chris Putnam and all readers who consider any of this are not lead by the Spirit on this at all but you of course have all truth. You wrote this: “Next on their agenda: To show how the Vatican is planning on ushering in an alien Antichrist”…and then in your very next sentence you say: “I want to be clear that my point is not to personally attack the authors”. You just did by the ridicule you offered.
Joel has always been a catholic bias Christian who affirm catholic belief in purgatory, infant baptism and mariolatry. What can we expect.
But then on the other hand, history does show that the Papacy seeks to rule over ALL the churches. Henry T. Hudson’s work on the historical aspects of the development of “Papal Power” does indicate this with documentation. James Parkes research work on illustrating the progressive nature of various Canon Law and Councils over time. I don’t think it is the beast by any means but there is some role it will play in the end times.
Brent,
“Joel has always been a catholic bias Christian who affirm catholic belief in purgatory, infant baptism and mariolatry. What can we expect.”
In a word, nonsense. And I am being very kind. This is what happens. If you do not affirm the RCC as being the great whore, you are accused of supporting “mariolatry’. No middle ground.
Weeping Eagle,
I attacked the theory, not the men. When I said, “Next on their agenda: To show how the Vatican is planning on ushering in an alien Antichrist”, that is simply to report the facts. I made no comment of personal ridicule. I certainly tried to make my points in a way that is respectful of the brothers. But it is not easy to do so without personal offense. I understand this, but I felt as though it was important to write something about this subject. As you know, in the business of being watchmen and shepherds, silence is often not an option. I hope you understand.
Blessings.
Joel I will always support your view on Islam but when it comes to Catholicsm you are applying double standard and it’s an insult to ex catholic like me. When you support the idea that RCC is a “christian” church are you telling us former Catholics that we are better off worshipping and praying to Mary again? The priests never rebuke us when we do this abomination in every church and chapels in my native country. But you telling us there’s nothing wrong with them since you believe they are Christian church. Have you lost your scriptural sense? You know what kind of superstitious bondage this idolatry of Catholic church is bringing in people? Again are you telling former Catholics who found Jesus instead of religion that there’s nothing wrong with what we did before?
Brent,
You made a series of accusations that were completely groundless. You owe me an apology. I have expressed on many occasions, including in this very post, that I disagree with various aspects of Catholic doctrine, practice and emphasis. But we should be able to have a discussion concerning the problems with the so-called Saint Malachy prophecy without necessarily needing to list every doctrine within Roman Catholicism that we disagree on. I am also a former Roman Catholic by the way.
The bottomline is that the Roman Church has apostolic origins which is why it is a corrupted, polluted, idolatrous ‘church’, because originally it was a kosher church, while Islam has no apostolic origins, which is one of many reasons why it actually fits the Biblical picture of the beast system. It wars against the saints. Now some Catholics throughout history in my opinion were saints, because they believed that Yeshua is the son of God and that he died for our sins and they partook of the holy communion every week, hearing the holy gospel read out loud in the Church, so when Islam warred against them, they were persecuting the saints, but Islam doesn’t:
a) acknowledge that Yeshua is the son of God
b) that he died for our sins
c) partakes of the holy communion every week
d) reads the gospel out loud in the church
and e) denies that God is our father
If you look at the big picture Islam fits hands down compared to Catholicism, which can only fit some of the bill, and only then if you stretch it to fit.
Brent,
You’re exaggerating to make a point an discredit the oppposition. no one said there was nthing wrong with the RCC practises. yeah, they got some major issues wrong, but they’ve also gotten some major issues right, and refused to budge
I think a strong case can be made that Satan’s throne (Rev. 2:13), and Satan’s followers (2:13) , and those who are the synagogue of Satan (Rev. 2:9; 3:9), have not moved their “church” membership to Rome but left it right where it has always been or at least will reestablish it where it began… in Western Turkey. (Gog of the land of Magog who rules over Meshech and Tubal) It is no matter of debate where these seven churches were located at the beginning of Revelation- Turkey!
The thing to keep in mind it that there is a big difference between a conspiratorial mindset with the Catholicism and mere apostasy and when you think about it no church or denomination is immune to that. I am a big believer in that letters to the seven churches is about the addressing sanctification of saints or lack there of it. The tribulation times helps to sift the saints away from worldliness. I have not read Dalton Thomas’s book Unto Death but I bet he addresses that issue. I believe Joel from what I am figure out about what you are saying is to be aware of strawmen boogeymen arguments concerning the RCC, is that correct?
Casey,
I have always warned against taking comfort in one’s denomination or affiliation. There is wheat and tares in every denomination. Some have a higher ratio of tares to wheat than others, but none are immune. As for Catholicism, there are issues there, no question, the extreme mariology being one of the most prominent, but often some of the things that some Protestants use to cast her in the worst light possible, is in my opinion, unnecessary. Often using a standard that their own denomination, or even themselves, could not stand up under. There is a big difference between calling something problematic theologically and outright, The Great Whore. Once someone is convinced of this, its hard to see anything positive at all.
Metaphorically speaking to look for the Antichrist coming from Rome is the equivalent of looking for Osama Bin Laden to be hiding in the caves. The truth is “hiding” in plain sight for those who have the eyes to see. We have been looking in all the wrong places because we are (have been) ignorant to the theology and geography of the middle east. Especially, in the Biblical and historical sense. Once a person takes the time to lock down the difficult names of the surrounding nations historically to there current locations and also compares the doctrines that define the antichrist’s religion, then and only then will we find the “truth” hiding in a “fortified house” right in front of our eyes. If you keep looking for the “truth” to be some where it is not… well you simply won’t find it. That in and of itself is the dilemma we all face, if we stop being Berians and start defending a particular “cave” where we believe “Bin Landen” is hiding we continue to play right into the devils strategy. God is not the author of confusion… The sad truth is that just like the CIA gave up on trying to find Osama and starting concentrating on his net work instead (ie. the pope), we have many who have stopped searching and have totally given up on finding the truth. God said, “they did not receive a love of the truth that they might be saved..” we must keep digging and exposing until we hit Satan where he is AT! Did not write this to insult anyone or any post… just thinking some things through.. and putting my thoughts out there for others to see.
It saddens me that there is so much misunderstanding about the RCC and what it teaches. First of all, nowhere does the Church condone worshipping anyone besides the One Lord. If one chooses to “pray” to Mary, or a Saint, then we are merely asking for their prayers or intercession EXACTLY like you would ask a brother/sister in your Church to pray for you. I agree that some in the RCC take this too far and I’ll be occassionally put too much emphasis on Mary and the Saints, but if it brings them closer to Christ, then what is the harm? Why should you judge? Secondly, those who are so angry or skeptical of the RCC to believe that we would merge with Islam, or desire to take over all the Churches are accusing fellow Christians falsely…think about that. If you ask why, then let me just say this. The RCC is slow to change. Some would argue too slow. We hold firm to our doctrine over centuries and even millenia. Why would we all of the sudden abandon our Trinitarian beliefs? Which Church changes faster with the times, RCC or Protestantism? I’m certainly not trying to accuse Protestantism, you are my fellow believers in Christ. I’m simply asking to you look at the whole picture. Finally, those who think the RCC wants to dominate all Christian Churches should consider this. Every day around the world, Catholics pray for Christian unity. Do you? There’s a difference between wanting to dominate, and desiring that all Christians could one day unite in one voice for Christ instead of accusing one another of who is right, and who is wrong.
So now you may be thinking, “this guy only knows Catholicism, and doesn’t know about other denominations”. However, I grew up in a Fundamentalist Christian Church. I recently over the last few years grew to understand and Confirmed my faith with the RCC. I’ve never been more close to Christ than I am now.
Hi Joel!
I want to ask you these questions.:
1. Do you believe that Pope Benedict is a true christian man, or an antichrist. Not the antichrist of revelation chapter 13, but an antichrist?
2. What do you believe about the catholic church then? Do you think that this church is a true christian church, or an antichristian church?
Have a nice!
@Dan,
What is the harm in praying to Mary and the saints?
From where I’m standing, the Bible commands us not to pray to the dead.
i.e. those not walking the earth with us.
And Yeshua said, “I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done.”
And he said to pray, “Our Father who art in heaven,” not Mary or the saints.
And Deut 18 uses VERY strong language about those who communicate with the dead. It uses the same language that it does about sodomisers. תוֹעֲבַת (though it’s in the construct state, not the absolute like it is when it’s talking about gay men.) Thankfully most Catholics don’t hear back from the dead, but those that do…
And who am I to judge?
I don’t judge the person, that’s for God to do on judgement day, but I will judge actions according to what the Bible says is sin, because we’re commanded to call people to repentance in the Bible, and we can’t do that unless we acknowledge sin as sin.
I see four primary stages in Church history.
Pre-Roman Catholic, Roman Catholic, Protestant, post-Protestant.
Pre-Roman Catholic being from the day of Pentecost right through until the usurpers took power in Roman and exchanged Apostolic tradition for pseudo-Apostolic tradition.
God keep the Apostle John alive for a reason. One of them I believe was to expose all the nonsense happening in Rome, because as soon as the other Apostles died. Then people could rise up and fabricate the faith by claiming that an Apostle told them to do such and such, even though they never said any such thing, but because John was left alive, he could teach the Churches in Turkey the TRUE apostolic tradition, and what was Pope Victor’s response to the real Apostolic tradition preserved in John’s Churches, was to immediately attempt to cut off from the common unity the parishes of all Asia, with the churches that agreed with them, as heterodox; and he wrote letters and declared all the brethren there wholly excommunicate.
You can read about it here:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.x.xxv.html
Give me authentic Apostolic tradition!
Being honest, anytime I read about the rapture I can hardly take anything else but with a grain if salt. The rapture was invented by a strange guy and is a relatively new interpretation. Is the end near? We pilgrimage as a people toward it….the day or hour near? The Catholic Church is two thousand years old and has been through many “mini” apocalyptic prequels… Lets watch and pray and hope we live honorably whether it is a prequel or the real thing…
As a former Protestant I find this discussion very funny yet sad. Protestants have absolutely no idea what Catholics believe.
“From where I’m standing, the Bible commands us not to pray to the dead.”
Because Martin Luther removed the book of 2 Maccabees from your Bible. He also removed Hebrews and Revelation. Apparently the Holy Spirit couldn’t get it right for the first 1,500 years of Christianity, and finally got it correct with Luther. But yet Luther and the Holy Spirit screwed up by accidentally removing Hebrews and Revelation temporarily.
If the dead can’t hear us, then why are the Saints in Heaven raising up the prayers of the living in Revelation 5 and Revelation 8? Why was Jesus accompanied by two dead Prophets at the transfiguration? Why do Orthodox Jews pray for the dead? http://www.myjewishlearning.com/life/Life_Events/Death_and_Mourning/Burial_and_Mourning/Shiva.shtml http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080115232901AAQRufK
If this was a Roman pagan practice created after the conversion of Rome in the 4th century, then why did the Indian Malankara Orthodox Church have all the same beliefs, even though they lost contact with western believers for 1,500 years? Last I checked, Christians in India, who first heard the gospel from Thomas, had no contact with Rome. Yet they still believed in prayers for the dead. Likewise, why did the Armenian Orthodox church practice these so-called pagan beliefs, even though Armenia and both its Church and Constitution was formed before Rome ever became Catholic? Did the evil Catholics go back in time and corrupt the beliefs of the Armenian Church?
I also enjoy that you posted one page from a Church Father. The funny part is that you take him out of context. The Apostle John never denied Apostolic succession. Acts 1 discusses Judas’ place as an Apostle being passed on to Matthias by the laying on of hands. If there is no authority to be passed, how can Judas’ place be passed to Matthias? Likewise Paul later gives authority to Timothy by laying on of hands, and then warns Timothy to be careful who he lays hands upon when passing on his authority. If there is no authority being passed on, there is no sense of laying on hands or passing on authority. You can’t pass on something that doesn’t exist. Yet Paul does it to Timothy, and Timothy did it to others.
We see nowhere in scripture where believers just started their own churches or their own denominations. Apollos would have been a great example of starting a second denomination. Yet the Apostle Paul rebukes people who follow Apollos, telling them that there is only one Church, one body, one Christ.
“usurpers took power in Roman and exchanged Apostolic tradition for pseudo-Apostolic tradition.”
Who were these usurpers? And when did they start? The most common answer is in the 4th century, but I already showed how that’s not historically true, and how the existance of the Indian and Armenian Orthodox Churches clearly disproves that.
But the real problem here is that Protestants throw about the word “tradition” without knowing what it actually means. There is a huge difference between “Sacred Tradition” and “tradition.”
Pay close attention to this: Catholics believe that Sacred Tradition ended with the death of the last Apostle.
Did you catch that? Sacred Tradition ended with the death of the last Apostle.
Again, the Deposit of Faith is made up of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Sacred Scriptures were the Apostles’ writings, and Sacred Traditions were their oral teachings. The Apostle Paul says this in 2 Thess 2:15 when he states “So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the TRADITIONS that you were taught by us, either by our SPOKEN WORD or by our LETTER.”
Sacred Traditions tend to be oral teachings that were not written down. John 21:25 shows that there were many other things Jesus did that were never written down.
So what are “traditions” then? “Traditions” are things that developed after the death of the last Apostle. Things like Priestly celibacy, the rosary, and art are part of tradition. These can be changed. The Church could decide to eliminate priestly celibacy tomorrow, and that would be fine, since priestly celibacy wasn’t a requirement until around the year 1000 AD.
I also enjoyed your link to an early Church Father. Unfortunately you took him out of context, as John never denied Apostolic succession, especially since Acts and Paul wrote about it numerous times.
Yet even if I concede this point, you’re engaging in cherry picking the evidence. You accept one page of a Church Father, yet you reject nearly everything else they stated. Check out the Epistle of Barnabas, which clearly discusses Baptismal Regeneration, which Catholic and Orthodox Christians have believed since the beginning, but only Lutherans and Anglicans still accept.
In fact, even Jews believe in Baptismal Regeneration. Read what Jews believe about the Mikveh: http://www.myjewishlearning.com/life/Life_Events/Conversion/Conversion_Process/Mikveh.shtml
And then there’s all of the Church Fathers discussing the Eucharist as literally being the body and blood of Christ, as does the Apostle Paul in 1 Cor 11. Paul discusses partaking in the Eucharastia improperly here: “27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.”
Somehow eating a symbol improperly condemns you? That would make absolutely no sense. This verse only makes sense from the Orthodox Christian perspective.
Before you go on ranting about Catholics, you should find out what they actually believe first.
I am not sure what I believe on this topic yet. I have spent a few hours this weekend studying it over a good bit.
However, if Peter Turkson (of Rome) is elected the next pope it will be a lot easier to believe in the prophecy of the popes. That would be crazy… If the 112th pope is actually named “Peter” and from Rome
The clearest view of the future comes from our past….history will either repeat in circles or give us visions of the future in prophecies. The virtue of patience and the gift of discernment for truth shall light the way for the faithful.
I choose not to ignore the prophecies of the past..
I find the gentleman’s comments about Protestantism completely preposterous and it is rather the case that Catholics have no idea what Protestants really believe.
Of course one can be guilty of the body of the Lord without the Communion bread having been changed into a piece of his arm. Such teaching is vulgar and offensive. Continue to pray for the dead, and pray to them as well if you like. You will be easy pickings for the deceptions to come.
What is something that I had no idea about but heard recently and so I checked it out was that Turkish forces make of the of the second largest in NATO behind US forces. In thinking this through there is absolutely no way Rome could be a threat.
Casey
Yes, thats correct. Turkey is the second largest in NATO, and thanks to the PKK conflict, they have combat experience.
Wow, this went from talking about being careful not to follow after “so called” prophecies that really have no scriptural basis, to a war between Protestants and Catholics,lol! Where’s the love???
Know anything about this stuff Joel?
What do you think?
Black Pope – Jesuit Vatican connection and the unfolding New World Order and MK Ultra
http://www.abbaswatchman.com/page%2025%20sorceries.htm
Also, some pre tribulationists say the antichrist is PAGAN not Islamic because of this verse… and that Islam will be wiped out in the next war?
Any thoughts.
Revelation 9:20
But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk.
Janine from Australia
According to that website above – ‘abbaswatchman’ The Vatican created Islam! true?
Blessings Joel – BTW – I do believe the same things you do regarding the end times.
Just need some wisdom on how to respond to stuff like this. Thank you.
Shalom!
What’s ironic is you talk as if Orthodox Churches don’t have their own canons. They did, and they still do. I could turn your phrase back on its head by saying, ‘apparently the Holy Spirit can’t get it right for 2000 years,’ but I won’t because I don’t want to profane the Holy Spirit.
Regarding Revelation 5, it says, “the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”
Firstly, I would caution about making doctrine out of a cryptic book like Revelation.
Secondly, do you know any Catholics who pray to the four living creatures?
Saying something like, ‘oh, to the second of the four living creatures, hear my prayer?’
Is it not possible that when we pray to the father, that there is a process by which our prayers are transferred to God by means of the incense at the golden altar?
Revelation 8 points towards this,
Are Catholics directly praying to this angel, saying, ‘oh, to the angel standing at the golden altar which is before the throne, hear my prayer?’ Doesn’t it matter better sense that when we pray to the father, and that there is a process by which our prayers are sent to God by means of incense.
Do you pray to Moses and Elijah? If not, what is your point?
Praying to God asking God for grace for the departed is different that praying directly to the dead.
There’s no way you can prove that they had no contact for 1500 years. The Malabar Coast is famous for trading and people from the near east traveled there for trade regularly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malabar_Coast
Do you have any first or second century documents to document that?
This is where I stand on Apostolic succession,
that it is Biblical to pass on authority to the rightful successors, but the successors never had or have the authority to overturn what was law before them. i.e. I don’t believe is that a bishop can overturn sacred tradition because he’s a Jew hater. True Apostolic succession is about holding onto what the Apostles actually taught, not the fabricated nonsense that goes on at the Vatican.
I agree 100%. I’m a former Protestant like yourself, only I now practice a reconstructed Apostolic Orthodox faith, which is something I really don’t want to do at all. I personally it abhorrent to do such a thing, but when the Church has been so thoroughly treifed up, my conscience compels me to. For the record, if there was a Church that had held faithfully to Apostolic tradition, I would sell my home and gladly go there, but all the faithful ones were persecuted into extinction, that’s why Eliyah and Moshe must come back to restore all the things, to set the house in order for the Lord when he returns.
Who were these usurpers? And when did they start?
One of them was Victor, but it started before him. Unless you’re going to tell me that the Apostles that preached in Rome, gave a completely different and non-Jewish practice regarding the Pascha than the Apostle John (and Phillip)?
Again, while the Apostles had been dead for some time in Rome, John was a shining light passing down true sacred tradition in Asia. So while usurpers and corrupt bishops were busy falsifying the faith in Rome, the Apostle John was still alive to speak the truth in Asia. This is why the sacred tradition in Asia regarding keeping the Pascha on the 14th is authentic, while the ‘sacred tradition’ in Rome was fabricated.
Unless you’re going to tell me that the Apostles kept the Pascha on different days.
The Apostle John testified to the truth of real authentic and actual Apostolic tradition, and he taught them to do it on the 14th of Nisan. Again, so unless you’re going to say that the Apostles that preached in Rome, preached a thoroughly anti-Jewish practice, then we’re left with only one other option, that the Apostles preached the truth in Rome, but someone/s changed it shortly after, most likely because they hated Judaism and wanted to distance themselves from anything Jewish.
If you want proof of how sacred tradition has been changed for pseudo-sacred tradition, just tell me, can you name any Orthodox Churches in Turkey today that still keep the Passover on the 14th of Nisan? If not, then can you tell me where the successors of all the numerous bishops in Asia that kept the Pascha on the 14th of the Nisan are now? What happened to their line, their orthodoxy?
You don’t have to quote that verse to me, I’ve quoted it as protestants before as proof why women should cover their heads while they pray. Paul said ALL of the Churches followed that practice and called it a tradition, and 2 Thess 2:15 tells us to keep the traditions.
I don’t accept the writings of the Roman Christians as being purely faithful, honest and truthful, except when they say things that go against Catholoism, then they’re probably telling the truth. If archaeologists found the writings of Polycarp (69 – 155) or Papias of Hierapolis (70-155), I would do no cherry picking, but faithfully follow their instructions.
I’ll check it out, but I am wary of certain writings. I mean, do you accept the Third Epistle to the Corinthians?
I agree with you about that. I’m currently translating the liturgy of St. James into Hebrew for use. I should clarify, I affirm that the bread and wine are imbued with the life giving power of the body and blood of Christ by the Holy Spirit, as our Lord said,
But I don’t believe the bread stops being bread and the wine stops being wine and become physically the body and blood, but sanctifically, spiritually and in terms of essence and power.
I mean, Paul talks about how believers were getting sick from eating the Lord’s supper while in sin, without confessing and repenting. You don’t get sick from eating bread and drinking wine. Protestants need to think about that one. Only if there is something holy added to the gifts can it make sense why people could get sick by them, or get healed if they walk rightly before the lord, making amends with their fellow brothers and confessing before partaking.
I’ve actually been exploring more of Hebrew roots movement myself. The more I study on the historical roots of antisemetism even Luther got this wrong.
I was reading William Koenig’s newsletter last night and he noted that one of of the up and coming candidates was a cardinal from the Latin America region that has been very strongly anti-semitic in past statements.
Another good article from April 2012 that speculated pretty firmly on Benedict’s resignation: http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-04-16/national/35453866_1_german-born-pope-pope-benedict-xvi-john-paul
A couple of Scriptures to consider if you believe that the False Prophet will come from the Catholic Church and support an EU/UN/NWO Antichrist:
1 John 2:22-23: “Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.”
1 John 4:1-3 “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.”
These passages, written by the same apostle to whom the events of Revelation were given, CLEARLY state that the main standard for judging the spirit of antichrist, as well as the culmination of that spirit in the AC himself (and by proxy, the False Prophet), is that he DENIES the deity and incarnation of Jesus Christ. The Roman Catholic church, despite all of it’s many faults, does affirm the full deity and incarnation of Christ as established in the Nicene Creed (Council of Nicea 325 and Council of Constantinople 381). Therefore, unless the next pope leads the Catholic Church on some kind of complete divergence away from that creed, he will not be the False Prophet. However, that standard fits PERFECTLY in the scenario presented in Muslim eschatology, primarily that “Jesus” will return and will “correct” the Christians to believe that he is NOT God incarnate, he did not die on the Cross, and he was not raised from the dead. The Catholic Church may well be complicit in the system of the Beast (as they were during the Holocaust), but it would not make political sense for the Vatican to renounce the Nicene Creed unless a very influencial, NON-Christian and religious force was pressuring/deceiving it to do so. Joel, does this sound right to you?
As Jesus stated in Matthew 24, “Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.” So it fits perfectly that the AC will in fact claim to be the Messiah (Mahdi), and the False Prophet will support him to DISCREDIT the TRUE Messiah (Muslim Jesus).
Greetings,
I have read many of the comments with great interest. It is good to read, what I perceive to be, sensible debate. As a relative debutant to Eschatology can anyone give a genuine idea of what the time scale to the Rapture or atribulation might be. I Know ‘date setting’ is not correct practise, I am asking for what the consensus amongst scholars is as to when the seven years Tribulation might well start. It would appear that geo-political and technological changes are making prophesied events quite plausible in our present time …..so what is the consensus ?
Blessings
Brian, Canterbury U.K.
Brian,
I do not think you will find a solid consensus per se. Though many do feel we are getting close. The point is to remain ready always. If I were to hazard a loose guess, I would suspect 20 years, but time certainly has a way of grinding on. God knows best.
Blessings
Catholics pray to Mary asking her intercession with her Son. Proper Catholic teaching is not worship of Mary; asking her intercession is not worship. The same with seeking any other Saint’s intercession on our, or on another’s, behalf. Some people may fall into a sort of worship, that makes them in error, not the teaching of asking the Saints in Heaven to pray on our behalf. Or are the Blessed dead, living with Him now, out of bounds? Theses Saints are not dead but alive in a way we can only see dimly now, but one day I hope to see clearly. They see Him!
Did not Mary bear in her womb the Incarnation? Carry him for nine months, her blood with His? Did she not give birth to Our Lord? Does that not make her the Mother of God? Such intimacy with the Second Person of the Trinity is beyond reason, to have been so close as she was to Our Savior. Be very careful in how you speak of her.
Alleluia! He Is Risen!
Those who do not know the truth fabricate lies against others to satisfy and justify themselves for what they believe it is true,and people follow their lies believing that is true.Outside the Orthodox and Catholic CHURCH there is the tower of babel where the Antichrist exists with a double face.This time there will be no dispersion but total destruction.
PRETRIB RAPTURE STEALTH !
Many evangelicals believe that Christ will “rapture” them to heaven years before the second coming and (most importantly) well BEFORE Antichrist and his “tribulation.” But Acts 2:34, 35 reveal that Jesus is at the Father’s right hand in heaven until He leaves to destroy His earthly foes at the second coming. And Acts 3:21 says that Jesus “must” stay in heaven with the Father “until the times of restitution of all things” which includes, says Scofield, “the restoration of the theocracy under David’s Son” which obviously can’t begin before or during Antichrist’s reign. (“The Rapture Question,” by the long time No. 1 pretrib authority John Walvoord, didn’t dare to even list, in its scripture index, the above verses! They were also too hot for John Darby – the so-called “father of dispensationalism” – to list in the scripture index in his “Letters”!)
Paul explains the “times and the seasons” (I Thess. 5:1) of the catching up (I Thess. 4:17) as the “day of the Lord” (5:2) which FOLLOWS the posttrib sun/moon darkening (Matt. 24:29; Acts 2:20) WHEN “sudden destruction” (5:3) of the wicked occurs! The “rest” for “all them that believe” is also tied to such destruction in II Thess. 1:6-10! (If the wicked are destroyed before or during the trib, who’d be left alive to serve the Antichrist?) Paul also ties the change-into-immortality “rapture” (I Cor. 15:52) to the end of trib “death” (15:54). (Will death be ended before or during the trib? Of course not! And vs. 54 is also tied to Isa. 25:8 which Scofield views as Israel’s posttrib resurrection!) It’s amazing that the Olivet Discourse contains the “great commission” for the church but not even a hint of a pretrib rapture for the church!
Many don’t know that before 1830 all Christians had always viewed I Thess. 4’s “catching up” as an integral part of the final second coming to earth. In 1830 this “rapture” was stretched forward and turned into an idolized separate coming of Christ. To further strengthen their novel view, which evangelical scholars overwhelmingly rejected throughout the 1800s, pretrib teachers in the early 1900s began to stretch forward the “day of the Lord” (what Darby and Scofield never dared to do) and hook it up with their already-stretched-forward “rapture.” Many leading evangelical scholars still weren’t convinced of pretrib, so pretrib teachers then began teaching that the “falling away” of II Thess. 2:3 is really a pretrib rapture (the same as saying that the “rapture” in 2:3 must happen before the “rapture” [“gathering”] in 2:1 can happen – the height of desperation!). Google “Walvoord Melts Ice” for more on this.
Other Google articles on the 183-year-old pretrib rapture view include “X-Raying Margaret,” “Margaret Macdonald’s Rapture Chart,” “Pretrib Rapture’s Missing Lines,” “Edward Irving is Unnerving,” “The Unoriginal John Darby,” “Catholics Did NOT Invent the Rapture,” “The Real Manuel Lacunza,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “Wily Jeffrey,” “The Rapture Index (Mad Theology),” “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Roots of (Warlike) Christian Zionism,” “Scholars Weigh My Research,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Appendix F: Thou Shalt Not Steal,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy,” “Deceiving and Being Deceived,” “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” “Famous Rapture Watchers,” and “Morgan Edwards’ Rapture View” – most by the author of the bestselling book “The Rapture Plot” (the most accurate and documented book on pretrib rapture history which is obtainable by calling 800.643.4645).
/ The preceding piece was observed lately on the web. /
My pertinent advice is to practice love and mercy for all, and honestly just be good. If you are a Christian, just follow in the footsteps of Jesus Christ- always pray to the Father for anything or before undertaking any hardship/difficulties for the sake of mercy and love for others. Please don’t waste your time speculating. You do your work and let God be God. Know that your are a creature and definitely there is a creature that you must acknowledge and respect. Adhere to your faith and you will not go wrong. Your faith will lead you to the truth-God who is your eternal abode. Have a good and clean heart and contribute to people’s peace and joy! God bless the people of the world!
If pastors or whoever for that matter think that their denomination is a true one, then why bother to contradict or prove that the Catholic Church is not a true church – like our brother church the Seven Day Adventist Church. What is really bugging them? If you believe your Church is the real true one then there is no reason to run down other church. Remember, whoever is truth or in the truth can never verify or justify about their truth of the TRUTH! Good luck and God bless and please just do your works of mercy and that will give you peace!